Quote from: Mattius92 on July 15, 2010, 02:54:04 PM
Quote from: Pottsburg on July 14, 2010, 02:15:01 PM
That train station is horrible. :-\ Even if you go to Savanna or Jesup Ga things are better. They use the old time station theme. Now the DC station is super nice of course. Not only does the city need to pick it up, Amtrak needs to get in the game. Offer some incentives for the city. You know it would be a huge boost for them. But then again anything that may upset one of their union employees is out of the question.
It might be retro, but its better then NO station. I am happy that St. Augustine is on track for getting passenger rail back. I dont like the location of the existing station as much as the planned one in downtown St. Augustine. However it will do fine till they get that one built. Now Jacksonville needs to get them a station downtown, I am hoping they can just use the existing Jacksonville Terminal downtown, but that would require moving the Convention Center (which needs to be done, but we dont have the money) or they could maybe have them both in the same spot... dunno about that.
I hope that we are not waiting to move the convention center before we move the Amtrak station back to downtown. I think that moving the Amtrak station to the Union Station would provide the impetus for us to move the convention center. Right now, we are stuck in procrastination mode and we need to either crap or get off of the pot.
Let it be known that, while I want to move the convention center to somewhere else, we cannot use it as en excuse not to move passenger rail back downtown.
Move the Convention Center to.........The Southbank. Tear down the DCSB Building.. It was ugly on day one..and build the Convention Center There.
Amtrak can be accommodated at the old terminal regardless of the convention center's situation. Jax just needs to find a way to come up with the money to pay for the train station's relocation.
Would that be terribly costly?
Quote from: thelakelander on July 15, 2010, 10:37:51 PM
Amtrak can be accommodated at the old terminal regardless of the convention center's situation. Jax just needs to find a way to come up with the money to pay for the train station's relocation.
Thank you, thelakelander! We cannot treat this like an either/or situation because it gives more fuel to those who want to kick the can down the road for future leaders to handle. Waiting for the convention center to leave is like waiting for a new Madison Square Garden in New York City before coming up with a better Penn Station...
@Timkin ---
I do not think that it would be costly for the Amtrak station to co-exist with the convention center until te convention center finds a new home. I have been to Washington's Union Station when they were hosting a major inaugural ball back in 1997. Passengers were still able to come and go even with a bunch of dignitaries and security milling around. If they can pull that off, I am sure that passengers can co-exist with a home and garden show... : )
Geez,,, in fact it would give passengers something to do while they are waiting ,,just an idea, but I would prefer the Train Station return there. The Convention center can stay or go, and where it relocates , really matters not to me. I guess an enhanced Annie Lytle Convention Center would not work in part due to lack of parking...but its another thought for the School,,,with an added on building in the back.
Quote from: Timkin on July 15, 2010, 10:39:14 PM
Would that be terribly costly?
Depends. If you build what JTA has planned, it will cost a pretty penny. If you go no frills (add track, covered platforms and use existing building space, etc.) it could be as low as a million or two.
Well....no frills seems a good start... After all the current Station in the Sketchy Neighborhood isnt exactly Casa Glamore' :)
Quote from: thelakelander on July 15, 2010, 10:48:24 PM
Quote from: Timkin on July 15, 2010, 10:39:14 PM
Would that be terribly costly?
Depends. If you build what JTA has planned, it will cost a pretty penny. If you go no frills (add track, covered platforms and use existing building space, etc.) it could be as low as a million or two.
It would make a lot more sense to use existing building space for the train station. Here is what I would do:
1. Use the old waiting room for ticketing and baggage. It would allow the Lee Street entrance to be used for taxis and passenger drop-off/pick-up.
2. I would set aside some adjacent space for a small food court and perhaps a car rental kiosk.
I could work - I know it!!!
Quote from: TheProfessor on July 15, 2010, 10:21:31 AM
I wonder where the original St. Augustine rail station was?? I believe my grandma used to take the FL East Coast Rail up from St. Auggie to Jax Union Station, then trolley over to downtown.
(http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/images/fecrr.gif)
Next to (NORTH OF) the new Flagler College Campus (former Florida East Coast Office Buildings). The original station was a back in or back out with a "Head Station" (end of track) track layout, and a "Through Station" style physical location. Moreover it was almost identical to the new fire station that sits on the exact spot, and this design was not by accident. A nice historic plaque next to the front door has a photo of the original. Of course the original FEC Station didn't have a fire truck garage attached, but the little park and fountain in front WAS the historic entry to the carriages of St. Augustine. The original building had a slightly different pillar shape but the columns were the same overall, so was the porch, patio, roof line, upper floors, lower floors, etc... St. Augustine made a carbon copy of the Flagler Station!
When I was a teen, the tracks still crossed US-1 behind (west of) the old station location, and the platform was still in place along the west edge of the FEC parking lot. The track crossed King and went into the property where the San Sebastian Winery is today. Florida East Coast had several "PV's" (Private Varnish* = railroad slang for an official office car) spotted on the track and it still had a butterfly roofed shed over the platform. Meanwhile up in Miller Shops, North of the current surviving FEC station, a fleet of perhaps 100 or more passenger cars were systematically being tipped over on their sides and the interior gutted by gasoline propelled flames. At the rate of a couple a week the funeral pyre burned for a year or more and a pall of death hung over the whole railroad. In fact this is how I ended up owning the former FEC Office car = aka: "The Mountain Queen."
In Streetcar days, the streetcar (St. Johns Electric Railway) crossed the FEC at King, just west of Malaga. The streetcar barn #1 was southeast of the winery next to the old ice plant. The ice plant still stands but the streetcar barn (north end) is gone. Ditto for barn #2 over on the island.
Hope that answers your question...* PV or Private Varnish was the term the railroaders hung on all private cars of the nabob's and empire builders. It is believed that the phrase refereed to the many coats of clear "polished" varnish that would be applied to the beautiful wooden cars of the late 1800's and very early 1900's. The velvet, wool, teak and mahogany inlays faded with the Tiffany lamps, oriental china and 24kt gold leaf lettering, by the 1950's what cars there were were being built of stainless steel, but the name "PV" is still with us today. OCKLAWAHA
The reason the old station doesn't line up is because FEC tore up the line between Lewis Speedway Road and the Wernick & Son Supply. You can see what is today the modern line in one of the 1960 photos as it looks like a siding off to the west.
Today there is a Winn-Dixie that sits on the old ROW and is backed up to the current ROW. That and the drainage pond make a true alignment restoration very difficult.
Also, FDOT took some of it when they widened US1 for the Ponce Island Dr/Ave. D connector.
I see a station relocation project on the horizon, either that or a very slow siding to pull up off the main.
It's a shame they took out the siding to the old FEC HQ when they moved to Jacksonville. While not practical for Amtrak, that would have made a great end of the line for a NE Florida commuter station.
Quote from: Jaxson on July 15, 2010, 10:40:13 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 15, 2010, 10:37:51 PM
Amtrak can be accommodated at the old terminal regardless of the convention center's situation. Jax just needs to find a way to come up with the money to pay for the train station's relocation.
Thank you, thelakelander! We cannot treat this like an either/or situation because it gives more fuel to those who want to kick the can down the road for future leaders to handle. Waiting for the convention center to leave is like waiting for a new Madison Square Garden in New York City before coming up with a better Penn Station...
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TD_XHA11WeI/AAAAAAAACzw/dFVMf1jrVaU/s400/Chicago_Union_Station_1943.jpg)
Rest assured that this is happening behind the scenes RIGHT NOW... Amtrak's VP for our region is well aware of the desire, need, and necessity. I have floated a plan and Lake and Myself are working on the details, sketches and description to run as a story very soon. Relocation, temporary stations, etc... are done all the time, so this isn't something unique to Jacksonville or Amtrak's experience.
The gist of my plan is to use what we already have, (yes Mildred that includes the tunnels) and build from the rail side up towards Bay Street, but you'll have to wait for the article if you want more detail then that!
Timkin, cost as Lake said could be VERY economical, and most of what we put down for the temporary station will serve us well right into the distant future as components of the "new" Amtrak Intercity Rail - JTA Commuter Rail - FDOT Regional Rail station.
The COJ MUST keep in mind that what we do with that terminal in the next 10 years will determine for all of time the position of Jacksonville in the greater railroad map of North America. Boy's and Girl's, it's FOURTH AND ONE on the 1 yard line, we can't afford to punt. Stay in the game and we'll be the only city besides Chicago with Amtrak, State, Regional, Local AND 3 separate high speed rail consortium's (Southeast, Gulf Coast and Florida).
BTW, NEW YORK CITY is working to create a "new" PENN STATION with several BILLION dollars of new investment in rail, as I recall it will be a conversion of the former Post Office Building. QuoteSPUWHO QUOTE:
It's a shame they took out the siding to the old FEC HQ when they moved to Jacksonville. While not practical for Amtrak, that would have made a great end of the line for a NE Florida commuter station.
The PV tracks vanished in the 1960's long before anyone thought of moving the Railroad's HQ to Jacksonville. While it might have made a cool terminal for Commuter Rail, it would also have written off all stations south of the HQ. So West St. Augustine, Palm Coast/Bunnell would not be possible without some snarling backup moves midroute. Understand that Amtrak today and railroad's historically have frowned on backup moves into a station since about 1909 when the text book "Passenger Terminals and Trains," came out. This is important as anyone from our city is likely to hear an argument against this practice tossed at our own JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL. Be sure and tell the doomsday prophets that a mid route back in move is perfectly okay IF the trains are going to be split, enjoined or switched around anyway. JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL is nothing if it is not perhaps the nation's premeir passenger train make-up and break-up point, so "BACK EM IN BOYS!" In fact properly planned that first back up move could be a large part of the split/make up moves that will be required anyhow. They'll come in from New York on a single route, From New Orleans on a single route, and from the Midwest on one of two routes... but they'll head south on THREE routes to Miami, and TWO routes to Tampa, plus a possible Ft. Myers/Naples, and Sarasota/Venice route. OCKLAWAHA
Ock, you are correct about New York's plans to move the passenger rail to the Farley Post Office that is across the street from Madison Square Garden. The Post Office was built to reflect the architecture of the old Pennsylvania Station. When the Amtrack facility opens in the post office building, it will be named for the late Senator Patrick Patrick Moynihan. Senator Moynihan advocated for improving the Amtrak facilities in New York City. I still shake my head in disappointment when I see old pictures of Pennsylvania Station. Tearing it down was a bad decision.
Ok... A few posts back I mentioned Annie being converted to a convention center (with an addition on to the back of the School. Horrible idea? I thought I heard something about it being eventually moved to the site of the Current Courthouse but I could be mistaken. Annie should be reused for something quite significant , and maybe this is not the best use.. Ideas anyone ?
Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 16, 2010, 12:20:37 AM
Quote from: Jaxson on July 15, 2010, 10:40:13 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 15, 2010, 10:37:51 PM
Amtrak can be accommodated at the old terminal regardless of the convention center's situation. Jax just needs to find a way to come up with the money to pay for the train station's relocation.
Thank you, thelakelander! We cannot treat this like an either/or situation because it gives more fuel to those who want to kick the can down the road for future leaders to handle. Waiting for the convention center to leave is like waiting for a new Madison Square Garden in New York City before coming up with a better Penn Station...
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TD_XHA11WeI/AAAAAAAACzw/dFVMf1jrVaU/s400/Chicago_Union_Station_1943.jpg)
Rest assured that this is happening behind the scenes RIGHT NOW... Amtrak's VP for our region is well aware of the desire, need, and necessity. I have floated a plan and Lake and Myself are working on the details, sketches and description to run as a story very soon. Relocation, temporary stations, etc... are done all the time, so this isn't something unique to Jacksonville or Amtrak's experience.
The gist of my plan is to use what we already have, (yes Mildred that includes the tunnels) and build from the rail side up towards Bay Street, but you'll have to wait for the article if you want more detail then that!
Timkin, cost as Lake said could be VERY economical, and most of what we put down for the temporary station will serve us well right into the distant future as components of the "new" Amtrak Intercity Rail - JTA Commuter Rail - FDOT Regional Rail station.
The COJ MUST keep in mind that what we do with that terminal in the next 10 years will determine for all of time the position of Jacksonville in the greater railroad map of North America. Boy's and Girl's, it's FOURTH AND ONE on the 1 yard line, we can't afford to punt. Stay in the game and we'll be the only city besides Chicago with Amtrak, State, Regional, Local AND 3 separate high speed rail consortium's (Southeast, Gulf Coast and Florida).
BTW, NEW YORK CITY is working to create a "new" PENN STATION with several BILLION dollars of new investment in rail, as I recall it will be a conversion of the former Post Office Building.
QuoteSPUWHO QUOTE:
It's a shame they took out the siding to the old FEC HQ when they moved to Jacksonville. While not practical for Amtrak, that would have made a great end of the line for a NE Florida commuter station.
The PV tracks vanished in the 1960's long before anyone thought of moving the Railroad's HQ to Jacksonville. While it might have made a cool terminal for Commuter Rail, it would also have written off all stations south of the HQ. So West St. Augustine, Palm Coast/Bunnell would not be possible without some snarling backup moves midroute. Understand that Amtrak today and railroad's historically have frowned on backup moves into a station since about 1909 when the text book "Passenger Terminals and Trains," came out. This is important as anyone from our city is likely to hear an argument against this practice tossed at our own JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL. Be sure and tell the doomsday prophets that a mid route back in move is perfectly okay IF the trains are going to be split, enjoined or switched around anyway. JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL is nothing if it is not perhaps the nation's premeir passenger train make-up and break-up point, so "BACK EM IN BOYS!" In fact properly planned that first back up move could be a large part of the split/make up moves that will be required anyhow. They'll come in from New York on a single route, From New Orleans on a single route, and from the Midwest on one of two routes... but they'll head south on THREE routes to Miami, and TWO routes to Tampa, plus a possible Ft. Myers/Naples, and Sarasota/Venice route.
OCKLAWAHA
@Ock --- Thank you for keeping us in the loop on this issue. There is little information from local media or government about any kind of progress, and this is frustrating. The silence often leads me to believe that they are sitting on their hands. After all, the movers and shakers in the city don't ride the train and probably don't see the value in reviving downtown. I hope that you are right that we are currently at fourth and one. I am hoping for a major touchdown for passenger rail in our city.
Quote from: Timkin on July 16, 2010, 03:32:07 PM
Ok... A few posts back I mentioned Annie being converted to a convention center (with an addition on to the back of the School. Horrible idea? I thought I heard something about it being eventually moved to the site of the Current Courthouse but I could be mistaken. Annie should be reused for something quite significant , and maybe this is not the best use.. Ideas anyone ?
convention centers should be in the center of town...near hotels and entertainment districts....the current courthouse site is perfect...the Annie Lytle site is not appropriate
+1
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 16, 2010, 07:40:02 PM
convention centers should be in the center of town...near hotels and entertainment districts....the current courthouse site is perfect...the Annie Lytle site is not appropriate
[/quote]
Annie does not seem appropriate for any use. I guess M-train is right. We should just bulldoze another Landmark. Forget about the fact that the Convention Center was not in the heart of town for the last 20 + years? Where is the money going to come from to build said convention center? Millions to demolish and haul away the Courthouse , and Millions more to build yet another NEW MODERN UGLY Downtown building.
Sheesh.. I give up .
The fact that the convention center was not surrounded by complementing development (entertainment, dining, hotels, etc.) for the last 20 years is a major reason for its failure. THis is nothing against the Annie Lytle but that's a mistake we should not make again. In addition, a convention center exhibition hall with have to be new. There are no historic buildings in this town that satisfy the design criteria requirements for such a facility.
Upper floors, at the Prime are not really used for much of anything.................so we have an old rail terminal that is used on an irregular basis as a Convention Center and it does not really do anything other than cost money to run? Why do we need a convention center when it does not connect to hotels/eateries and entertainment establishments? Infact ,why do we need a convention center? For an annual Lawn and Garden Show? Heck, we could use Fairgrounds for that.......if we had one...........or even Cecil Field which has plenty of acerage for a spread out event! Prime needs to go back to what it was............Rail Terminal plain and simple!
Quote from: CS Foltz on July 17, 2010, 06:40:14 AM
Upper floors, at the Prime are not really used for much of anything.................so we have an old rail terminal that is used on an irregular basis as a Convention Center and it does not really do anything other than cost money to run? Why do we need a convention center when it does not connect to hotels/eateries and entertainment establishments? Infact ,why do we need a convention center? For an annual Lawn and Garden Show? Heck, we could use Fairgrounds for that.......if we had one...........or even Cecil Field which has plenty of acerage for a spread out event! Prime needs to go back to what it was............Rail Terminal plain and simple!
AMEN!!!
Better yet....let's stick our heads in the sand and not build anything....if that's your idea of moving forward, then vote for Mike Hogan for mayor
Btw CS....we have a fairgrounds in Jax....next to the arena....you know near downtown....evver been there?
You can't be a first tier city without a decent convention center. You'll be hardpressed to find a major vibrant urban american city that does not have one. Nevertheless, it should not be a competition between the uses. Jacksonville will be a much more vibrant place if we can find a way to improve both.
There is a difference between having a convention center and making one the core of a downtown redevelopment strategy. I don't believe anyone has stated that a new convention center would make DT a success. By the same token, neither will turning the terminal back into a train station. However, strategically placing projects like these will lead to urban connectivity that creates pedestrian synergy and vibrancy. Nevertheless, regardless of the DT environment, exhibition space is something that complements a major business environment. Locally, we just need to make sure that space is located in a manner to where it stimulates and reinforces walkability.
By the way, why should we expect a public exhibition hall to make a profit by itself? Like mass transit, roads, libraries and parks, they are public quality of life investments that stimulate indirect profits throughout the community.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 17, 2010, 11:50:01 AM
By the same token, neither will turning the terminal back into a train station. However, strategically placing projects like these will lead to urban connectivity that creates pedestrian synergy and vibrancy.
Turning the terminal back into a train station would be a boon for connectivity. A centrally located train station would make it a lot easier for passengers to arrange for ground transportation, easier for passengers to find nearby lodging and/or dining and easier access (Many people don't even know that we have an Amtrak station).
I'm with my son at football practice. I'll respond to your latest posts in detail when I get back home later today.
Quote from: stephendare on July 17, 2010, 11:55:49 AM
Meh. Not another building needs to be torn down or another million dollars needs to be spent on this worthless project.
In the future we might need one, but at the present time, the convention facilities of the Hyatt will serve us well for another generation.
In looking at the business structures of the other successful city centers, we would be well advised to convert the Prime Osborn into a multi modal transportation center with a hotel/housing center built into the actual structure (perhaps after the same model of the proposed Bank Hotel by Atkins and Company.
There is not now, nor has there been a proposal on the table for more than thirty years which would lead to a success for the City of Jacksonville in any arena except for the contractors or developer who wins the project.
Agree Stephen! Not another building should come down. And we do not even need a stupid convention center anyway....at least it is certainly not on a top 5 list.
Quote from: stephendare on July 17, 2010, 12:09:36 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 17, 2010, 11:56:55 AM
By the way, why should we expect a public exhibition hall to make a profit by itself? Like mass transit, roads, libraries and parks, they are public quality of life investments that stimulate indirect profits throughout the community.
This would be true if it brought some kind of result. For 50 years it simply hasnt.
The idea comes from a different age, when conventions were the lifeblood of industries.
Modern technology has made them into networking events and the role of industrial demos at conventions has been diminishing over the past few years.
This means that people are looking for party cities or an environment designed for socialization, which Jacksonville simply does not provide.
I spoke at length with Jessie Lynne Kerr of the Times Union once regarding the career of Eve Heaney, the managing editor of the Chamber of Commerce's "Jacksonville" magazine in the 1960s. In the course of the conversation we got into a pretty indepth discussion about the history of the "Convention Business" strategy in Jax.
There had been some moderate success in bringing to conventions to the city, largely as a result of about 10 guys, including Haydon Burns. The rest of the convention business was driven by key individuals from the chamber (who happened to be on the same personal business level as Preston Haskell or Herb Peyton) that were making it their civic duty to go to other conventions across the country and sell Jacksonville as a good place to have a convention.
But the blue print for how best to build a convention center seems to have been built by people whose understanding of them came solely from going to conventions in other cities.
They apparently didnt look at how the centers were built into multiuse arenas and didnt stop to consider that it wasnt really a 'chicken/egg' situation. They experienced them in the role of tourists.
It didnt occur to them that the city's vibrancy is what led to the need for a convention space. Building a Convention Center wasnt a way to reverse engineer a downtown success.
Which is what this whole conversation is about. Reverse engineering a success for downtown by exposing it to hypothetical out of town conventioneers.
It would be like trying to reverse engineer electricity by building a microwave oven.
I have attended conventions in San Diego, Boston, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Kansas City, Tampa and Orlando. I totally agree with you on this, stephendare.
Whenever I attend an out-of-town convention, what immediately comes to mind for me is how that city is geared toward conventions and visitors.
The key question to ask is, "Would you come to this city if you were not coming here for a convention?" A successful convention city, in my opinion, gives the visitor a great experience beyond the convention.
In San Diego, that meant getting on the trolley and visiting Old Town, catching a Padres game near my downtown hotel or taking a tour bus to Cornonado.
In Boston, it included getting a multi-day 'T' pass to go to Cambridge, Revere Beach, Prudential Center and the Kennedy Library; having lunch at Quincy Market; walking the Freedom Trail, and going clubbing near my hotel.
In Philadelphia, I enjoyed sampling local scrapple, seeing the Liberty Bell, taking the train to see some friends in Manayunk, having dinner aboard Moshulu, etc.
And the list goes on...
Either my activities were within walking distance of my hotel, or transportation was simple. Not all convention people are going to rent a car to seek things out in the suburbs. As a matter of fact, only in Kansas City did I rent a car from the airport. I took the train to most of the other cities (Except Orlando - I drove).
Quote from: stephendare on July 17, 2010, 11:55:49 AM
Meh. Not another building needs to be torn down or another million dollars needs to be spent on this worthless project.
I stand by the claim that a new convention center is not a worthless project and that no building worth saving (I don't think the courthouse on Bay Street is worth preserving when the new one is completed) needs to be torn down.
QuoteIn the future we might need one, but at the present time, the convention facilities of the Hyatt will serve us well for another generation.
We needed one yesterday. You're also factually incorrect that the Hyatt is well positioned to serve us for another generation. The Hyatt's largest space is less than 28,000 square feet.
see floor plan here: http://www.jacksonville.hyatt.com/hyatt/hotels/events/meetings/index.jsp;jsessionid=89C97789E8927E4C482286F5E03D08E9.atg05-prd-atg1
If the Hyatt were well positioned, steady stream of businesses, trade shows and conventions would not be leaving downtown just as fast as the corporate offices are.
QuoteJacksonville Business Journal - April 20, 2007
by Rachel Witkowski Staff Writer
JACKSONVILLE -- The Prime F. Osborn III Convention Center's size and distance from a hotel has cost the city's economy more than $48 million this year.
Business groups that had planned to hold conventions at the center in 2007 but decided to go to another market equated to a loss of $48.4 million based on the room-nights they would have generated for the city, according to the Jacksonville & the Beaches Convention and Visitors Bureau. The city has lost nearly $140 million from groups that have left from 2006 to 2008.[/color]
The 78,500 square feet of exhibit space at the Prime Osborn is limiting its ability to attract state and national conventions while local events' potential to make money is also being constrained by the building's size.
The city and the CVB, through the convention center task force, are looking into expanding the Prime Osborn or building a new convention center. The task force will present a final report later this year, but meanwhile the numbers are staggering.
The CVB, which helps bring larger regional, state and national conventions that generate room-nights, most recently lost two of its larger clients for 2009. After 10 years of holding annual events at the Prime Osborn, the state's Fire-Rescue Convention & Exposition and The State Cheer & Dance Championships of Florida are moving to Daytona Beach, taking $3 million in economic impact.
The Florida Fire Chiefs' Association said it needed 100,000 more square feet to clear exhibits from the lobby areas, according to information provided by the CVB. It uses 117,300 square feet at the Prime Osborn.
Gainesville-based American Championships, which operates State Cheer & Dance, said it needed an additional 40,000 square feet to expand the event and have more warm-up space.
The Prime Osborn's size and the cost to transport event attendees to the nearest hotels were the primary reasons for lost business, said Shirley Smith, CVB's vice president of sales.[/color]
Both conventions will host their events at Daytona's Ocean Center in 2009, the same year it will open as an expanded convention center with 452,491 square feet of space, nearly double its existing size. The center is offering incentives and promotions for businesses that bring events to Ocean Center within the first year of its reopening, Smith said.
The State Cheer & Dance had reached a point where it was trying to book during Martin Luther King Jr. Day weekend because it would have needed to extend its event by a day to compensate for space limitations, she said.
The CVB has enough time to replace the events with other business but it will be difficult since both occurred at the beginning of the year.
"It's easier to keep a customer than it is to create a customer," said John Reyes, president and CEO of the CVB.
Limited space also leads to less availability. Event coordinators, on average, must plan on taking two days to move in and a day to move out, Reyes said. By contrast, the Prime Osborn could house two events simultaneously if its exhibit space was expanded to 280,000 square feet, which represents 85 percent of the convention center market nationally.[/color]
Opportunities for expanding events targeted at this market, such as the Jacksonville Spring Home & Patio Show and the Jacksonville International Car & Truck Show, are also limited. Reyes said associations that produce such events generate 60 percent to 70 percent of their revenue from them.
The Car & Truck Show, produced by event marketer Paragon Group Inc. of Massachusetts, has been at the Prime Osborn for nine years. For the past two years vehicles were placed on the grass lot in front of the Prime Osborn, in the parking lot and in lobbies. The Prime Osborn's doorways were changed to bring more vehicles to the lower rooms, said Barbara Pudney, vice president and show producer at Paragon.
Pudney said changing the doorways helped accommodate the Car & Truck Show's recent growth but an expanded Prime Osborn would facilitate an even bigger and better event.
Reyes said if the city creates a new or expanded convention center, it could bring back lost business. "But you can't bring it back if you don't have something to offer."
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html
I for one would like to keep as many people and money flowing into downtown. An expanded convention center (along with better mass transit, retail, historic preservation, etc.) follows that goal. Given up and becoming more of a hickville does just the opposite on all levels.
QuoteIn looking at the business structures of the other successful city centers, we would be well advised to convert the Prime Osborn into a multi modal transportation center with a hotel/housing center built into the actual structure (perhaps after the same model of the proposed Bank Hotel by Atkins and Company.
This is not an either/or argument. The terminal needs to be a transportation center and a larger convention facility is needed. Here are a few links to our past articles on these issues for those who are evidently not familiar with the evolution of this discussion:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jan-peytons-struggles-the-convention-center
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-sep-a-vision-for-transit-in-jacksonville
You will find that the vast majority of MJ posters believe that the convention center should be relocated from the Prime Osborn and that the Prime Osborn should be converted back into a transportation center. It would also be foolish to subsidize another hotel at the terminal when we can't even support the ones we have now and we're discussing an idea (no convention center) to take more of their business away. So, transportation center vs. convention center is not my argument. My argument is that DT should be home to both and both can play vital roles in the recreation of a vibrant downtown core.
QuoteThere is not now, nor has there been a proposal on the table for more than thirty years which would lead to a success for the City of Jacksonville in any arena except for the contractors or developer who wins the project.
The local hotels (even one you mentioned, the Hyatt) state other wise. I happen to agree with their assessment that the thousands of visitors coming into the city for conventions and trade shows spend money in local hotels, retail shops, gas stations and restaurants.
QuotePhil Tufano, general manager of the Hyatt, said the hotel's owners also are evaluating the possibilities for redevelopment of their property. To make Sleiman's project anywhere near feasible, the hotel's parking garage - which also houses all the hotel's administrative offices, 30 percent of its meeting space and about 70 guest rooms - would have to be demolished.
"We have to address all those issues," Tufano said. "There needs to be a [larger] convention center in the downtown area. Of course, we would like to be the anchor hotel."
John Reyes, president of the CVB, said the bureau's priority is to make the best use of the facilities the city already has. When it comes to the bottom line, any plans for a convention center must include at least 200,000 square feet of contiguous exhibit space (the Prime Osborn has 78,540) and a hotel within walking distance.
"Toney has a vision that works closely with the Hyatt's," Reyes said. "[If they can make it work], it would make perfect business sense."
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/081706/met_4470314.shtml
QuoteNo room at the inn
04/14/2006
by Rachel Witkowski
Staff Writer
The Jacksonville hotel and motel market is expanding rapidly but in order to continue growing, it needs the city to expand first. Read: build a larger convention center.
During the last 12 months, hotels and motels in Duval County have averaged a 93 percent occupancy rate, according to general manager of the Courtyard by Marriott, Donald Harris, who is also president of the Jacksonville Hotel and Motel Association.
“Right now, to date, we’re at 100 percent occupancy rate,†he said. “It’s like we’re on a train headed forward and we want to keep that train running on its track.â€
An average of 10,000-15,000 visitors are staying in Duval County hotels per day, according to the Jacksonville and the Beaches Convention & Visitors Bureau. The 6.6 million visitors who traveled to Northeast Florida in 2004 spent $2.5 billion on hotels, dining, shopping, entertainment and transportation â€" directly impacting the economy to the tune of $4.3 billion, the CVB stated.
But as the hotels, tourism and economy are expanding in Jacksonville, to continue growing, Harris said the area will need a larger convention center to attract more hotel business.
“It’s a real challenge to bring any convention here because we’re too small,†he said. “A lot of hotels have as much space as the convention center has.â€
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=44926
Ok... Tear the old Courthouse down and build a Convention Center then.
That's been the plan we've endorsed for years. The convention center should be relocated to the site of the current county courthouse, adjacent to the Hyatt. This is nothing new.
Quote from: Jaxson on July 17, 2010, 12:05:17 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 17, 2010, 11:50:01 AM
By the same token, neither will turning the terminal back into a train station. However, strategically placing projects like these will lead to urban connectivity that creates pedestrian synergy and vibrancy.
Turning the terminal back into a train station would be a boon for connectivity. A centrally located train station would make it a lot easier for passengers to arrange for ground transportation, easier for passengers to find nearby lodging and/or dining and easier access (Many people don't even know that we have an Amtrak station).
Connectivity is the answer, not train station, convention center, shopping mall or whatever isolated concept someone can dream of. Downtown sucks because there is no connectivity to create synergy and pedestrian connectivity. With that said, both a train station and convention center can be designed to stimulate connectivity. For example, moving the convention center next to the Hyatt, the Landing, Florida Theater and bars on Bay Street is a form of connectivity. In doing so, a convention center replaces a huge parking lot, placing guests within immediate walking distance of existing entertainment, hotel and retail options in the core. All of these places would benefit from a few extra thousands of guest annually, looking to spend money.
Quote from: stephendare on July 17, 2010, 01:33:00 PM
Quote from: Timkin on July 17, 2010, 01:26:54 PM
Ok... Tear the old Courthouse down and build a Convention Center then.
and then what?
There are already existing business models for a successful convention center. This would not be among them.
Then what? Success would be more foot traffic, business and money for Bay Street, the Florida Theater, Hyatt, Riverwalk, Landing, local hotels, gas stations, etc. Success would be urban synergy and the money/image/prestige that comes from it.
Quote from: stephendare on July 17, 2010, 01:35:27 PM
Incidentally all of these information sources are from the agencies whose existence is dependent on perpetuating the the "Someday we'll be a Convention City" industry.
I wouldnt trust a single one of them.
So you're claiming that the conventions and trade shows who say they left Jacksonville because of inadequate facilities did not? You're also claiming that the Hyatt's largest space is more than 28k square feet and that its own manager did not say Jax needs a larger convention facility? Okay, but without linked sources proving these statements to be inaccurate, I'm going to have to go with the Hyatt's website, TU articles and quotes provided by them.
I think the Convention center as it is now is a waste. I also think putting Millions into a new one is a waste, but so be it.. We can have Home and Patio Shows and Boat Shows and Whatever shows in other Facilities.. This is as big of a waste as this Sprawing new WAY OVER BUDGET Courthouse that just absolutely HAS to be built!
Quote from: stephendare on July 17, 2010, 01:33:00 PM
Quote from: Timkin on July 17, 2010, 01:26:54 PM
Ok... Tear the old Courthouse down and build a Convention Center then.
and then what?
There are already existing business models for a successful convention center. This would not be among them.
In short, here are a few things you need for a successful convention center:
1. Adequate spaceJax does not have this, as proven by the trade shows leaving for better facilities.
2. An adjacent convention center hotelWe have the Hyatt (which was subsidized by COJ) but its over a mile away from the Prime Osborn.
3. Complementing uses (entertainment, restaurants, retail, etc.) within walking distanceThe Prime Osborn is surrounded by dirt lots.
Until these three things change, Jax's convention facilities will remain inadequate and a failure.
Quote from: Timkin on July 17, 2010, 01:44:24 PM
I think the Convention center as it is now is a waste. I also think putting Millions into a new one is a waste, but so be it.. We can have Home and Patio Shows and Boat Shows and Whatever shows in other Facilities.. This is as big of a waste as this Sprawing new WAY OVER BUDGET Courthouse that just absolutely HAS to be built!
What facilities? The Prime Osborn is the largest facility we have and its outdated and too small. Again, let's take a look at these quotes from conventions and trade shows that have recently left DT, taking their visitors and money with them.
QuoteThe CVB, which helps bring larger regional, state and national conventions that generate room-nights, most recently lost two of its larger clients for 2009. After 10 years of holding annual events at the Prime Osborn, the state's Fire-Rescue Convention & Exposition and The State Cheer & Dance Championships of Florida are moving to Daytona Beach, taking $3 million in economic impact.
The Florida Fire Chiefs' Association said it needed 100,000 more square feet to clear exhibits from the lobby areas, according to information provided by the CVB. It uses 117,300 square feet at the Prime Osborn.
Gainesville-based American Championships, which operates State Cheer & Dance, said it needed an additional 40,000 square feet to expand the event and have more warm-up space.
The Prime Osborn's size and the cost to transport event attendees to the nearest hotels were the primary reasons for lost business, said Shirley Smith, CVB's vice president of sales.[/color]
Both conventions will host their events at Daytona's Ocean Center in 2009, the same year it will open as an expanded convention center with 452,491 square feet of space, nearly double its existing size.
QuoteOpportunities for expanding events targeted at this market, such as the Jacksonville Spring Home & Patio Show and the Jacksonville International Car & Truck Show, are also limited. Reyes said associations that produce such events generate 60 percent to 70 percent of their revenue from them.
The Car & Truck Show, produced by event marketer Paragon Group Inc. of Massachusetts, has been at the Prime Osborn for nine years. For the past two years vehicles were placed on the grass lot in front of the Prime Osborn, in the parking lot and in lobbies. The Prime Osborn's doorways were changed to bring more vehicles to the lower rooms, said Barbara Pudney, vice president and show producer at Paragon.
Pudney said changing the doorways helped accommodate the Car & Truck Show's recent growth but an expanded Prime Osborn would facilitate an even bigger and better event.
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html
This isn't make believe. Whether we think we need a new center or not, large conventions and trade shows are leaving DT Jax. Whether we think we have a parking problem or not, corporations are leaving DT Jax. Whether one agrees with historic preservation or not, our historic building stock continues to fall like dominos. Sooner or later, we're going to have to stop thinking, denying and ignoring and start implementing some serious solutions.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 17, 2010, 01:34:30 PM
Quote from: Jaxson on July 17, 2010, 12:05:17 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 17, 2010, 11:50:01 AM
By the same token, neither will turning the terminal back into a train station. However, strategically placing projects like these will lead to urban connectivity that creates pedestrian synergy and vibrancy.
Turning the terminal back into a train station would be a boon for connectivity. A centrally located train station would make it a lot easier for passengers to arrange for ground transportation, easier for passengers to find nearby lodging and/or dining and easier access (Many people don't even know that we have an Amtrak station).
Connectivity is the answer, not train station, convention center, shopping mall or whatever isolated concept someone can dream of. Downtown sucks because there is no connectivity to create synergy and pedestrian connectivity. With that said, both a train station and convention center can be designed to stimulate connectivity. For example, moving the convention center next to the Hyatt, the Landing, Florida Theater and bars on Bay Street is a form of connectivity. In doing so, a convention center replaces a huge parking lot, placing guests within immediate walking distance of existing entertainment, hotel and retail options in the core. All of these places would benefit from a few extra thousands of guest annually, looking to spend money.
That is my point. I am still befuddled at how our city continues to support leaving our Amtrak station where it currently is - a trash can. That's a great first impression for visitors to our area - not! We could benefit greatly from integrating our rail passenger station into our urban core and its transportation offerings.
I don't want to sound like a cynic, but I believe that the status quo thinking in our city is going to make a multi-modal transportation hub about as likely as Lindsay Lohan winning an Academy Award.
^We're getting there. We're going to pull this city kicking and screaming if that's what it takes to get Amtrak back downtown and the Prime Osborn back to its original use.
I agree Jaxson, and since the Convention Center is where it is and there are empty dirt lots adjacent, why not develop this? Why not develop an area of town that has been all but razed... This is all part of DOWNTOWN JACKSONVILLE. But what do I know? I guess not much really.
BTW Jaxson lol abt the Lindsey Lohan part.. agreed .
Quote from: stephendare on July 17, 2010, 12:09:36 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 17, 2010, 11:56:55 AM
By the way, why should we expect a public exhibition hall to make a profit by itself? Like mass transit, roads, libraries and parks, they are public quality of life investments that stimulate indirect profits throughout the community.
This would be true if it brought some kind of result. For 50 years it simply hasnt.
Some say the same thing about rail and use the skyway as their proof. You're doing the same thing by basing your argument off a broken model. The Prime Osborn fails because it was not set up to succeed in the beginning. Instead of leaving it where a terminal should be, move it to an environment where such a facility has a greater chance of stimulating connectivity and synergy with complementing uses.
QuoteThe idea comes from a different age, when conventions were the lifeblood of industries.
Modern technology has made them into networking events and the role of industrial demos at conventions has been diminishing over the past few years.
This means that people are looking for party cities or an environment designed for socialization, which Jacksonville simply does not provide.
Face-to-Face interaction will always be a part of our lives. In addition, convention facilities also host trade shows where people and businesses can see a variety of products and materials up close and personal. As long as we remain an industrialized nation, there will always be a place for such events. However, that place does not have to be Jacksonville. We can make a decision to continue to fall behind by telling those companies and groups to take their events to more progressive cities that have invested in facilities to host and entertain them.
QuoteI spoke at length with Jessie Lynne Kerr of the Times Union once regarding the career of Eve Heaney, the managing editor of the Chamber of Commerce's "Jacksonville" magazine in the 1960s. In the course of the conversation we got into a pretty indepth discussion about the history of the "Convention Business" strategy in Jax.
There had been some moderate success in bringing to conventions to the city, largely as a result of about 10 guys, including Haydon Burns. The rest of the convention business was driven by key individuals from the chamber (who happened to be on the same personal business level as Preston Haskell or Herb Peyton) that were making it their civic duty to go to other conventions across the country and sell Jacksonville as a good place to have a convention.
But the blue print for how best to build a convention center seems to have been built by people whose understanding of them came solely from going to conventions in other cities.
They apparently didnt look at how the centers were built into multiuse arenas and didnt stop to consider that it wasnt really a 'chicken/egg' situation. They experienced them in the role of tourists.
It didnt occur to them that the city's vibrancy is what led to the need for a convention space. Building a Convention Center wasnt a way to reverse engineer a downtown success.
Which is what this whole conversation is about. Reverse engineering a success for downtown by exposing it to hypothetical out of town conventioneers.
It would be like trying to reverse engineer electricity by building a microwave oven.
I agree with some of this (ex. the building design side of things). However, right now our goal should be to try and save what we have left. Completely getting out of the business does the exact opposite. Under no circumstances should a metro with 1.3 million residents that claims to want to be a business and industrial center, not have a decent convention facility.
All I am getting at is the Convention Center in my humble opinion is not on a top 10 list ..or top 5 list or even top 3 list. I never LIKED that it was placed where it was placed, but had it not been the Jacksonville Terminal would probably have followed every other beautiful structure that is no longer in our Urban Core....to a landfill. NOW and maybe not even 10 years from now is the time to be thinking about a convention center. Jeez.. We cannot even dream up a plan to save a 2 Story Fire Station which is the only (that I know of ) remaining landmark of Brooklyn left on Riverside Ave, but lets GET THAT COURTHOUSE UP AND RUNNING! We no more needed that Courthouse (at this juncture ) than we need a new Convention Center RIGHT NOW. Lets tear down the old Courthouse ( I have no objection there...Im not sure why it was ever placed there to begin with) and lets build a new bigger Convention Center, when we cannot even keep the existing one busy. I understand some of the statistics. Clay County, one of the most rapid-growing counties in the country has had only two (to my knowledge) Courthouse facilities in the past Century... How many has Jacksonville now had , including the one going up now? Where theres a will theres a way, and Lake, I know you know what you're talking about .. I dont think this convention center is going to be the Messiah , so to speak of recreating our Urban Core. In this economy I do not see how ANY Convention Center anywhere, let alone Jacksonville, is doing that great.
Quote from: stephendare on July 17, 2010, 02:02:41 PM
There is 110,000 square feet of space at the Hyatt.
Combining it with the 265,000 square feet of space at the Prime Osborn leaves 375,000 square feet of space available for a convention.
The Hyatt's largest column free exhibition space is the Grand Ballroom at 27,984 square feet. 110,000 square feet is the gross floor area and includes the kitchen, smaller meeting rooms, lobby, etc. That is significantly smaller than the Prime Osborn's 78,500 square foot exhibition hall, which has been proven to be inadequate.
QuoteHere is a listiing of the largest convention centers in the world:
Quote# McCormick Place, Chicago, Illinois, 2.7 million
# Orange County Convention Center, Orlando, Florida, 2.1 million
# Las Vegas Convention Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, 2+ million, 3.2 million total space
# Boston Convention and Exhibition Center, Boston, Massachusetts, 1.7 million
# Georgia World Congress Center, Atlanta, Georgia, 1.5 million
Nice list but we're a regional player, not an international or national one. Our peers are places like Charlotte, Birmingham, Memphis, Mobile, Richmond, etc.
QuoteThe amount of space that Jacksonville has for an event is pretty respectable. Especially if you add in the halls at the Main Library and the city's ability to bend over backwards to provide transportation via trolleys and skyway.
Our largest single site space is 78,500 square feet. Very few are going to go through the trouble of spreading out their event all over several small buildings. Instead, you go where the space you need exists (ex. Birmingham, Nashville, etc.).
QuoteThe Convention Center itself is connected via skyway to every single large hotel on the north and south banks of the urban core, with the exception of the Hyatt.
A couple of big problems with this line of thinking. The Hyatt happens to be your convention center hotel (which should be attached to the convention center, btw) and the skyway doesn't even run on the weekends or night, making it totally useless.
QuoteYet we aren't booking conventions.
The Hyatt is able to expand up to triple its size if it needs to, and yet it doesnt. Why?
Because we arent booking conventions.
If you don't have the facility, you can't book the event (see previous quotes of events leaving Jax because of the facility issue). The Hyatt also doesn't have the space to expand. However, once the courthouse relocates that surface parking lot would help. Also, I believe the Hyatt may have an option on that property and has entertained the idea of a public/private partnership for a larger convention facility.
QuoteIf you do some cursory research, there is a sweet combo of elements that a city needs to create a succesful convention center.
First of all, the center itself is usually physically colocated with a sporting arena. That way the facility isnt empty during the times between events, leaving the entire area around it dead.
They also usually are colocated with a theatre or large scale performance arena.
We had the ability to create this complex when we built the Veterans Memorial building. We didnt.
Third, the city is also usually known for its excellent night life amenities---which Jacksonville is simply not noted for.
Between our regulatory agencies, parking policies, and the habit of coralling all possible life out of the sports complex as soon as possible, Jacksonville could not possibly be more hostile to the environment that convention planners look for.
We have recently watched the complete destruction of a viable entertainment/commercial corridor along main street in Springfield by a group of 50 homeowners for questionable purposes, we are watching the same thing being attempted in the King Street district, and we have allowed fundamentalist religious people to close down most of the nightlife in downtown.
Until we address these things (and begin fining the shit out of frivolous or malicious complaints on the part of citizens) and start making intelligent decisions about how these things actually work structurally in the real world, then they are doomed to failure.
If New York cannot make its convention centers work without the colocation of other major events arenas, then what the hell is Jacksonville thinking its going to do?
We've been doing research for years and have ran several articles on our own site. Need vs. design are two distinct issues. What happens in NYC has nothing to do with Jax's need for a decent sized facility for our market. NYC is a different animal with a different set of issues. Again, we already have conventions, trade shows, business, etc. in this town. Because we have not invested in our facilities we are losing them and in danger of losing more. No one is advocating building a million square foot center to compete with NYC, Chicago or Las Vegas. No one is advocating implementing a DT redevelopment strategy around a convention center box either. However, there is a need to attempt to keep the businesses and events we already have and put us in a position to grow.
Quote from: stephendare on July 17, 2010, 02:11:22 PM
I am not against a Convention Center as long as its done right----which means building it at the municipal stadium and connecting it to the Veterans Colliseum.
I know you found a link that you're using for this idea but there are several successful convention centers not attached to football stadiums. Being adjacent to entertainment, restaurants and a convention center sized hotel should be much higher priorities for the creation of a successful center in Jacksonville.
Just out of curiosity , what POTENTIAL Events Could be booked on a regular basis ,assuming we went with a new Convention Center of the proposed size you are speaking of, Lake ?
Quote from: Timkin on July 17, 2010, 02:18:23 PM
All I am getting at is the Convention Center in my humble opinion is not on a top 10 list ..or top 5 list or even top 3 list. I never LIKED that it was placed where it was placed, but had it not been the Jacksonville Terminal would probably have followed every other beautiful structure that is no longer in our Urban Core....to a landfill. NOW and maybe not even 10 years from now is the time to be thinking about a convention center. Jeez.. We cannot even dream up a plan to save a 2 Story Fire Station which is the only (that I know of ) remaining landmark of Brooklyn left on Riverside Ave, but lets GET THAT COURTHOUSE UP AND RUNNING! We no more needed that Courthouse (at this juncture ) than we need a new Convention Center RIGHT NOW. Lets tear down the old Courthouse ( I have no objection there...Im not sure why it was ever placed there to begin with) and lets build a new bigger Convention Center, when we cannot even keep the existing one busy. I understand some of the statistics. Clay County, one of the most rapid-growing counties in the country has had only two (to my knowledge) Courthouse facilities in the past Century... How many has Jacksonville now had , including the one going up now? Where theres a will theres a way, and Lake, I know you know what you're talking about .. I dont think this convention center is going to be the Messiah , so to speak of recreating our Urban Core. In this economy I do not see how ANY Convention Center anywhere, let alone Jacksonville, is doing that great.
Who ever said anything about a list of priorities or what to do or not in this economy. Long term planning should not be subject to short term economic cycles. My view is that we have a need and we should plan for that need. Actual construction may not happen in 10 years but you need to establish a long term vision and make sure everything you invest in gets you to that long term goal.
Quote from: Timkin on July 17, 2010, 02:46:48 PM
Just out of curiosity , what POTENTIAL Events Could be booked on a regular basis ,assuming we went with a new Convention Center of the proposed size you are speaking of, Lake ?
Off the top of my head, the ones currently leaving (a few have been mentioned in the last page of this thread). Trade shows. In addition, a larger facility has the ability to host more smaller events at the same time. Just as important, a well placed facility brings more foot traffic and money to nearby complementing businesses. In a city that needs urban connectivity, this may be the most important aspect of all.
Quote from: stephendare on July 17, 2010, 02:46:33 PM
Whatever research we (or the city) might have done that leads to the conclusion that a stand alone convention center in downtown jacksonville unaccompanied by major policy shifts is flawed.
Correct. A stand along convention center is a bad idea.
QuoteAny coordinating committee that wants to put on a large event here can put together the spaces available. Theresa Price managed to do it with the Jazz Festival.
Not every event has to be held in Jacksonville. Like corporations, events can pick up and relocate if their current location isn't desirable. If you're city does not have the proper facilities, GM isn't going to call Theresa Price to put together 20 small spaces all over Jacksonville for their trade show. Instead, they would just have it in a city like Charlotte or Indianapolis, that has the facilities needed.
QuoteThe only way that I would personally support this pipe dream is if it were co-located at the Municipal Stadium and A Phillip Randolph were developed as an entertainment district.
A. Philip Randolph, as an entertainment district, is more of a pipe dream than building a convention center next to the Hyatt.
having just chaired a professional organization's state conference at the Hyatt last year, I can tell you we used all of the prime meeting/exhibit space on the second floor....and we only had about 800 attendees (there was probably room for about 1,000)...there is also the secondary space in the old suditorium spae that is attached....it can handle the same amount of people, but is not ideal as ceiling heights are ow.
Now, the same professional organization hosts a national conference every year....with about 5,000 people attending....there is no way the Hyatt could do that...in fact, the organziation has been meeting exclusively in convention centers since 2004.
Finally, what about trade shows....like tha car show, boat show, Philadelpia flower show (big thing there), fashion shows, mercantile shows, etc?
Bottom line...no convention center turns a profit on its own (just like transit)...but it generates lots of spinoff revenue...I saw that firsthand when Philly relocated their convention center from near PENN to the heart of Center City in the 90's....new hotels, restaurants, and nightspots sprung up.
Now we're never going to compete size-wise with convention facilities in Chicago, NYC, Orlando, or Vegsa and we shouldn't want to...but a facility of around 200,000-300,000 square feet (similar to Tampa) that can host medium size shows should be built!
Quote from: stephendare on July 17, 2010, 02:51:36 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 17, 2010, 02:44:10 PM
Quote from: stephendare on July 17, 2010, 02:11:22 PM
I am not against a Convention Center as long as its done right----which means building it at the municipal stadium and connecting it to the Veterans Colliseum.
I know you found a link that you're using for this idea but there are several successful convention centers not attached to football stadiums. Being adjacent to entertainment, restaurants and a convention center sized hotel should be much higher priorities for the creation of a successful center in Jacksonville.
There is no evidence to support this statement, Lake. Considering that your own links quote hotel managers from Baymeadows especially.
There is a lot of evidence. DT Jax has a bad model and is dead. Several other peer cities who have well integrated convention facilities also have successful complementing businesses adjacent to them. That synery equals success. Regarding Baymeadows, although suburban, it is lined with restaurants and businesses. Major conventions and events also have the ability to generate business for non-attached hotels as well (remember the super bowl?).
QuoteConvention Centers unfortunately bring with them a built in schedule of non use. Like the idea of an administrative district which closes at 6pm, the uneven volume associated with a Convention Center is too unpredictable for businesses to open confidently. It would be unhealthy to locate a stand alone use for this purpose in the actual core along the riverfront. It would simply turn out the way that the TUPAC does, busy while scheduled but useless otherwise.
It doesn't have to be dead if you don't design it to be dead. The best urban convention center is an interactive one that generates around the clock use. In other words, make it mixed use. Exhibition hall/meeting rooms on upper levels (or setback from street edge), retail/cultural uses at street level.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/tu_proposal/new_convention_center.jpg)
@thelakelander --- i like the above illustration. well done.
Thanks, it was from a story we did back in 2006 on the relocation and the development of a mixed-use convention center. Jason did the Google Earth renderings.
I love the design idea from above. And by all means if all parties with a hand in this game were to plan it out, then Prime Obsorne could be transitioned from Convention Center to Tranist Center while a better Convention Center were being built in the present courthouse location. I love the mixed use idea too and I thought someone had posted that Nashville's Convention was built in this way.
The city benifits because it supports the businesses present and those on their way such as the Bank Hotel. I liken the whole situation to building a bathroom. Right now we have a lot of pieces: sink, tub, toilet. But our water and sewer lines were built in our living room, so when we go to use all this stuff we're left with crap. We have a chance to put those essential things back where they belong so everything can work as it should.
Quote from: stephendare on July 17, 2010, 03:24:01 PM
This still provides no evidence that links a successful convention center to any of the above.
Depends on what you consider to be a successful convention center. I've already stated that a successful center to me is one that generates foot traffic and brings additional business and customers to the surrounding area. A good example, would be San Diego's Convention Center. It has served as a major anchor for the redevelopment of their downtown and the Gaslamp District.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/567311610_sDb7f-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/567311626_A2Fvb-M.jpg)
QuoteThere is a bar to jump over in order to succeed at this game, and what we presently have in inventory isnt enough. Colocating a convention center at the Veterans Memorial piggybacks the investment and places it next to the Baseball Stadium as well as the Municipal Stadium. City Hall Pub is already over there and it is doing quite well. The establishment of A Phillip Randolph as a commercial strip is hardly a pipe dream as the success of the CHP is proof. It just requires a few solid small businesses to jump start it.
Building a convention center near next to the stadium would be just as bad as leaving it at the Prime Osborn. A successful convention center needs a convention center hotel and complementing uses. Downtown Jacksonville already has these things. We just had a discussion on the importance of connectivity this past Monday at Chicago Pizza. A well designed convention center at the courthouse site brings synergy and pedestrian connectivity to a location that is already heavily subsidized (Hyatt, Bay Street Town Center, etc.) by the city. Why recreate the wheel and encourage the need for more subsidizing of private businesses to compete with existing businesses that we're already subsidizing?
QuoteColocating a new convention center in this location and extending either skyway or streetcar service to this area would give you greater bang for the buck, kill a few birds with one stone by extending rapid transit from the Amtrak Station to the Sports District, and present the least amount of risk to the downtown because it colocates another partially used space with other partially used venues. It can only add to the equation over there.
This would be a huge un-needed risk by transforming a $100 million project into a $1 billion because you would have to build an extra mile of mass transit and subsidize new complementing development to compete against existing complementing development. The simple solution is the courthouse site because the only thing you would need to invest in would be the convention center itself.
QuoteHowever, tearing down very busy structures like the old city hall and permanently programming a partial use facility at that location would replace guaranteed daytime activity with uncertain partial activity, which is a net loss to the northbank core.
Its not a net loss because the courthouse isn't even open at night and on the weekends. A mixed use convention center would bring people to that area around the clock.
QuoteBuilding a working model from the successful models of other cities at the Courthouse location would also mean adding another performance venue at the location or another sports related facility.
You don't need a performance or another sports venue to have a successful convention center. You have to design for the needs of your environment.
the lakelander has a good point about san diego and its gaslamp district. i was there last year for a convention and i liked the location of the convention center relative to the surrounding lodging and retail. there was also nearby mass transit that i used to get around the area.
i also want to add that larger conventions need multiple hotels for their various delegations. and those hotels often need meeting space for the various delegations if they are conducting caucuses and meetings in their own respective capacities.
QuoteCity Hall Pub is already over there and it is doing quite well. The establishment of A Phillip Randolph as a commercial strip is hardly a pipe dream as the success of the CHP is proof. It just requires a few solid small businesses to jump start it.
Pipe dream because a district needs buildings. Unfortunately, most along A Philip Randolph have been torn down and the city did not put retail space in the two adjacent parking garages. As you know, it's much more feasible to open up a restaurant or bar when you don't have to worry about purchasing the land and constructing the building to house your establishment. Until someone comes along and reconstructs a few missing blocks of buildings, it's a long shot.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 17, 2010, 04:02:36 PM
I've already stated that a successful center to me is one that generates foot traffic and brings additional business and customers to the surrounding area. A good example, would be San Diego's Convention Center. It has served as a major anchor for the redevelopment of their downtown and the Gaslamp District.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/567311610_sDb7f-M.jpg)
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Quote from: thelakelander on July 17, 2010, 03:07:42 PM
It doesn't have to be dead if you don't design it to be dead. The best urban convention center is an interactive one that generates around the clock use. In other words, make it mixed use. Exhibition hall/meeting rooms on upper levels (or setback from street edge), retail/cultural uses at street level.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/tu_proposal/new_convention_center.jpg)
QuoteThis still leaves the convention center empty for 40% of the time, and thats even with the national reputation of the Comic Con and the tourism industry that already exists in San Diego, and being twice the size of what we would have on the ground here.
Have you considered that San Diego's convention center is a critical element that has helped create the vibrant urban environment that exists in San Diego today? Wouldn't it be nice if our investments in DT Jax ended up doing the same?
Anyway, here is the beautiful thing about investing in a new center in an ideal location, as long as you're willing to be creative:
1. You can take the best features of multiple facilities and incorporate into your environment. For example, San Diego's connectivity driven location with Seattle's mixed-use public/private components for around the clock activity.
2. You can strengthen and validate existing public investments such as the Bay Street Town Center, Northbank Riverwalk, Hyatt Hotel and the Landing. A new center in any other location would require that similar investments be made to complement the new center. Since the market can't support them, you would have to subsidize new development that would only compete against existing subsidized development.
3. A relocated center allows the Jacksonville Terminal to go back to its original use (transportation center) while keeping the conventions and trade shows we currently have in downtown.
(http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/archives/seattle%20convention.jpg)
Seattle's Washington State Trade Center features retail and entertainment uses as street level with the exhibition hall above. Imagine such uses being able to line the Northbank Riverfront and the south side of Bay Street?QuoteWhat evidence would you propose exists that Jacksonville can bring a similar level of usage--much less higher--- than the City of San Diego.
San Diego serves as a successful example in that the center is a destination that brings additional business and visitors to downtown San Diego and the Gaslamp District. By the same token, even if a relocated Jax center just kept the events it currently has, those guests are now exposed to the businesses in the central Northbank. Think preservation of existing economic base and strengthening connectivity first and foremost.
QuoteThere could be a case for Jacksonville being able to hold a golfing, or a medical convention event of some size....
It's not "there could", there is a case to be made for Jacksonville being able to hold events. It has held them in the past and it still holds many today. However, you have to invest in your facilities to keep them competitive to keep the events you have and to possibly attract more.
The State's Fire-Rescue Convention & Exposition and the State Cheer & Dance Championships of Florida are two large events we let get away because of our outdated facilities. They are also events that could be attracted back to Jacksonville if we had a facility that could serve their needs.
Quote After 10 years of holding annual events at the Prime Osborn, the state's Fire-Rescue Convention & Exposition and The State Cheer & Dance Championships of Florida are moving to Daytona Beach, taking $3 million in economic impact.
The Florida Fire Chiefs' Association said it needed 100,000 more square feet to clear exhibits from the lobby areas, according to information provided by the CVB. It uses 117,300 square feet at the Prime Osborn.
Gainesville-based American Championships, which operates State Cheer & Dance, said it needed an additional 40,000 square feet to expand the event and have more warm-up space.
The Prime Osborn's size and the cost to transport event attendees to the nearest hotels were the primary reasons for lost business, said Shirley Smith, CVB's vice president of sales.
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html
A better facility would also help us keep some of our existing growing conventions and trade shows, such as the Spring Home & Patio Show or the International Car & Truck Show.
QuoteThe Car & Truck Show, produced by event marketer Paragon Group Inc. of Massachusetts, has been at the Prime Osborn for nine years. For the past two years vehicles were placed on the grass lot in front of the Prime Osborn, in the parking lot and in lobbies. The Prime Osborn's doorways were changed to bring more vehicles to the lower rooms, said Barbara Pudney, vice president and show producer at Paragon.
Pudney said changing the doorways helped accommodate the Car & Truck Show's recent growth but an expanded Prime Osborn would facilitate an even bigger and better event.
Reyes said if the city creates a new or expanded convention center, it could bring back lost business. "But you can't bring it back if you don't have something to offer."
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html
QuoteBut the city is going to have another ten years of in the trenches arguing and fighting before it reaches the downtown business environment which will lend itself to the needs of an entertainment based Convention City.
It may take 10 years if you start planning today. Keep ignoring the issue and it could take 30 like our battle in bringing reliable mass transit options back to town. Btw, why must we be an "entertainment-based" city. We should seek to be a diversified place capable of hosting multiple types, styles and themes of events.
QuoteIn the meantime, not a penny of riverfront land should be used to subsidize an industry that cannot even draw the minor shows.
What's being subsidized? The courthouse land is already owned. If you follow the Metro Jacksonville plan that we've endorsed for years, the courthouse site would become one with mixed-use development. Going back to the graphic we created, convention facility in center of block and private sector mixed uses along the riverfront and Bay Street.
Quotethen certainly Jacksonville's Convention Center could be able to do the same.
This would depend on the site selected. The Prime Osborn can not because it is inadequate. However, a courthouse site with complementing uses would have a better chance because of the improved facility and surrounding environment.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/tu_proposal/new_convention_center.jpg)
The courthouse site is large enough to add a convention facility that could also include private mixed-use development along Bay Street and the riverwalk. The income generated from the onsite mixed-use development could be used to reduce the cost of constructing a new modern convention facility. I like this quote and think it sums up Jacksonville's situation. It also pretty similar to the situation that Chew is currently going through.
Quote“With a convention center the size of the one in Jacksonville, you can only compete for 8 percent of the convention business,†he said. “That’s like having a 40-seat restaurant â€" you’re not going to be able to hold many weddings.†â€"Anthony DeMatteo
[/b]
http://www.metjax.com/forums/showpost.php?p=61060&postcount=17
Quote from: Jaxson on July 17, 2010, 03:11:16 PM
@thelakelander --- i like the above illustration. well done.
I will admit , Lake that I also like the rendering. I still side with Stephen that the Convention Center need not be on Riverfront. It could be somewhere adjacent. Heck by the time it is reality ,everything else that was old and nice, and part of our Historic Fabric downtown will probably be gone anyway. I do not mean to sound so pessimist about this topic.. but the track record of demolitions speak for themselves, and mostly in their places are the slabs of the buildings to park cars on or asphalt parking lots. This has not produced infill to downtown.. It has helped downtown to become a ghost town.
^I know you'll probably hate to hear this but a convention center next to the Hyatt may have better odds of happening than the restoration of the Annie Lytle. I say this because there is no money for either but at least the Mayor has publicly given his opinion on the convention center issue and the CVB will continue to push the concept.
QuotePeyton also called for the community to work towards turning the existing Duval County Courthouse location into a future convention center. The site, which will be vacated when the new courthouse opens, is on the St. Johns River and adjacent to the downtown Hyatt Hotel.
While no money currently exists to fund a new center, Peyton says the community should begin discussions on a project he says could positively impact downtown.
http://jacksonville.com/interact/blog/abel_harding/2010-01-20/jacksonville_mayor_john_peyton_endorses_convention_center_dayt
I also know that due to years of inaction, many get pessimistic about everything. However, if things are to change for the better, we have to evolve our line of thinking. Not only about the convention center but also parking, historic preservation, the transportation center and even commuter rail, which would link all of these things with the St. Augustine Train Station (the original topic of the thread).
I have little doubt that you are right about that, Lakelander. Im pretty sure Annie Lytle will never see a reuse. Perhaps the former owners knew that all along, and just kept it boarded up. :) I certainly never heard from you or any of the others offering to help me clean the place up, so I suspect you , along with many others have long known what I had always hoped would not be reality. You know what ? SO BE IT ! I am getting used to the mentality of such actions .
And your Convention Center on the Riverfront probably will become a reality one day. If so , I applaud you and all who want it to happen. :)
Quote from: thelakelander on July 17, 2010, 06:25:38 PM
^I know you'll probably hate to hear this but a convention center next to the Hyatt may have better odds of happening than the restoration of the Annie Lytle. I say this because there is no money for either but at least the Mayor has publicly given his opinion on the convention center issue and the CVB will continue to push the concept.
QuotePeyton also called for the community to work towards turning the existing Duval County Courthouse location into a future convention center. The site, which will be vacated when the new courthouse opens, is on the St. Johns River and adjacent to the downtown Hyatt Hotel.
While no money currently exists to fund a new center, Peyton says the community should begin discussions on a project he says could positively impact downtown.
http://jacksonville.com/interact/blog/abel_harding/2010-01-20/jacksonville_mayor_john_peyton_endorses_convention_center_dayt
I also know that due to years of inaction, many get pessimistic about everything. However, if things are to change for the better, we have to evolve our line of thinking. Not only about the convention center but also parking, historic preservation, the transportation center and even commuter rail, which would link all of these things with the St. Augustine Train Station (the original topic of the thread).
For the record, I still have a reply letter from the boy Mayor indicating his pledge , along with that of Councilman Corrigan to spare the School but I seriously doubt either one of them give a damn about Annie Lytle.
Quote from: Timkin on July 17, 2010, 06:14:32 PM
I still side with Stephen that the Convention Center need not be on Riverfront. It could be somewhere adjacent
it doesn't have to be....but it is a good use for the courthouse site, asuming there is some public space.
Tampa's convention center is a good example...the riverwalk goes right in front of the breezeway and the exhibit halls are placed toward the back...as Lake has noted, Jax. can improve upon this by having the exhibit hall on the seocnd floor and having retail space on the first floor along the Bay Street side.
I suppose. A new Convention Center would be way down on the list of priorities , to me. But it is also obvious that saving the Annie Lytle School isnt even on the list to many. Pretty sad, but so be it.
^It could be #100 on the list of priorities but we should still plan for the ultimate long term use of our publicly owned property. That way, priorities #1-#99 will all incrementally fall in line of reaching whatever long term vision this city has.
I am clear on your position Lake . And I ll respect your priorities and keep those in mind. Guess if Annie is ever going to see a reuse , it will have to come from me seeking out an investor/developer . I know I need not count on you to help, and that is totally ok.
I talked to my grandma today and she indicated that the original passenger rail station in St. Augustine was near the Florida East Coast Railway Headquarters at King Street and Malaga Street. Anyone remember this station?
I do ! :)
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Downtown, and I mean RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF DOWNTOWN, is the Cox Convention Center... There are several hotels and it is all an easy one or two blocks from the Crystal Bridge botanical gardens, Bricktown, 3 major hotels connected with Skywalks, Amtrak, and the downtown skyscrapers... This is the schedule for the Cox for the month of July 2010: QuoteJuly 2010 Events
Jun. 28th - Jul. 1st FAA National Small Business Training Conference
FAA National Small Business Training Conference
Locations: Great Halls A - E, Meeting Room 16 - 20
For more information CLICK HERE
Jul. 1st - Jul. 4th OKC Summer Classic Dog Show
Time: 8:00 AM
OKC Summer Classic Dog Show
July 1-4, 2010
8:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. (Daily)
Tickets On Sale: Thursday, June 24 - 10:00 a.m.
Ticket Prices: $7 for Adults/$3 for children under 12
(Children under 3 will be admitted free of charge.)
Discounts: Discount coupons available at Little Caesars Pizza locations
Ticket outlets:
- Order in advance at the Ford Center Box Office
(Available at the Cox Convention Center day of show)
- All Ticketmaster outlets including Suncoast, FYE, and Homeland stores
(OUTLET LOCATOR)
- TOLL FREE 1-800-745-3000
- ORDER ONLINE
Official Website: http://www.okcsummerclassic.com
Jul. 2nd - Jul. 3rd Family Reunion
Wilcots Family Reunion
Location: Meeting Rooms 14 - 15
Time: 7:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. (daily)
*Private Event
Jul. 9th - Jul. 12th Kirby Champion Division VIP Club
Kirby Champion Division VIP Club
Location: Great Halls A - E, Meeting Rooms 16 - 20
Jul. 10th IEC Graduation
Time: 6:00 AM
IEC Graduation
Location: Meeting Rooms 14 & 15
Time: 6:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m.
Jul. 10th Wedding Reception
Time: 4:45 PM
Banks/Brewer Wedding
Location: Great Halls D & E
Time: 4:45 p.m. to 10:00 p.m.
*Private Event
Jul. 10th Wedding Reception
Time: 6:00 PM
Jeri Coats Wedding Reception
Location: Meeting Room 16
Time: 6:00 p.m. to 11:00 p.m.
*Private Event
Jul. 10th Oklahoma City Yard Dawgz vs. Iowa Barnstormers
Time: 7:05 PM
OKLAHOMA CITY YARD DAWGZ
vs. Iowa Barnstormers
Saturday, July 10 - 7:05 PM
www.okcyarddawgz.com
Block Party:
When - 2 hours before every home game!
Where - Reno between the Cox Convention Center & Ford Center
Who - Diezel Dawg & the Yard Dawgz Dancers
What - Live entertainment, games & activities, beer gardens & more!
Ticket outlets:
- Order in advance at the Ford Center Box Office
(Available at the Cox Convention Center day of show)
- All Ticketmaster outlets including Suncoast, FYE, and Homeland stores
(OUTLET LOCATOR)
- TOLL FREE 1-800-745-3000
- ORDER ONLINE
Groups of 10 or more:
Visit www.okcyarddawgz.com/groupTickets.aspx for information on savings and incentives.
Seating Map:
Jul. 12th - Jul. 15th National LTAP Conference
National LTAP Conference
The Oklahoma Local Technical Assistance Program of LTAP Region 6 invites you to attend the National LTAP Association Annual Conference, July 12-15, 2010.
For more information: CLICK HERE
Jul. 13th - Jul. 14th Literacy First 10th Annual Leadership Institute
Literacy First 10th Annual Leadership Institute
“Whatever It Takes!†Leadership, Commitment and Change
Educators have the single most important and difficult job in society! Think about it. Educators have only 1080 hours per year to instruct a very diverse student population, a high percentage of which suffer from various handicapping conditions (economically disadvantaged, special education, English Language Learners). To accomplish this grueling task effective educators have learned that they must do “Whatever It Takes!†to cause ALL these students to learn. They know it takes “Leadership, Commitment and Change†to ensure ALL students learn to their full potential.
The focus of the 10th Annual Literacy First Leadership Institute is “Whatever It Takes! Leadership, Commitment, and Changeâ€. Each of you will come away with specific strategies that can be applied immediately to motivate teachers and to accelerate achievement of all students. Most importantly, your batteries will be recharged and your commitment to instructional excellence will be energized.
For more information: CLICK HERE
Jul. 18th - Jul. 21st National Association of Free Will Baptists Convention
National Association of Free Will Baptists Convention
For more information: CLICK HERE
For convention information: CLICK HERE
Jul. 24th Roller Derby: Red Dirt Rebellion Rollergirls
Time: 8:00 PM
Red Dirt Rebellion Rollergirls
vs. Gold Coast Derby Grrls
Saturday, July 24
Doors Open: 7:00 PM
Bout Starts: 8:00 PM
Ticket Prices:
$12 in advance/$14 day of show
Kids 10 and under $6
Ticket outlets:
- Order in advance at the neighboring Ford Center Box Office
(Available at the Cox Convention Center day of show) - All Ticketmaster outlets including participatingSuncoast and FYE, and Homeland stores (OUTLET LOCATOR)
- TOLL FREE 1-800-745-3000
- ORDER ONLINE
Seating Map:
Jul. 27th - Jul. 28th Bar Exam
Exam Dates
July 27-28, 2010
http://okbbe.com
Jul. 30th Oklahoma City Yard Dawgz vs. Tulsa Talons
Kind of makes you wonder what the hell we were thinking with the Prime, doesn't it??OCKLAWAHA
Seems like a pretty nice array of bookings for PO . :)
Quote from: Timkin on July 18, 2010, 01:10:23 PM
Seems like a pretty nice array of bookings for PO . :)
Compare the date ranges though between the 2 schedules though. One is for July and the other is through the rest of the year.
Wow! Talk about filling a schedule up..............makes me wonder just what we, the taxpaying public, foot the bill to the tune of how much? Somehow methinks the public is getting the short end of the stick! Does anyone have any idea just much the taxpayers subsidize the so-called Convention Center? Do all of these extravaganzas pay for themselves? I would have to consider just what it takes to hold anything and just what the operating expenses would be............... is it worth the effort?
CS Foltz, the convention center falls in the same category as roads, mass transit, parks, schools and libraries. Whatever the subsidy is, I bet its less than the others. The key for Jacksonville is to find ways to get the best utilization out of these quality of life offerings.
I'll add on Lake...keep in mind CS that a successful convention center creates significant spin-off revenue in the form of hotels, restaurants, etc....all of which leads to increased local tax revenues.
also note that events booked at the center pay a fee...most convention centers require subsidies for when they aren't booked or underbooked....which is why right-sizing any new center in Jax. is so important.
* Raises hand... Can I just ask a question? Um.. how many bookings have been declined or did not happen because of the size of existing Convention Center? I would be curious to see that list as well.. Who markets Prime Osborn? I'm not being sarcastic about any of these questions, I simply do not know these things and I would like to. We apparently need a Riverfront Convention Center..fine .. I get that. but what did we lose out on over say...the last 10 years because we did not have a large enough Center? I am certainly pro-making Jacksonville a vibrant City again.... I just simply happen to be one of those apparently few , and growing of the group that would like to see some resemblance of our Historic Fabric (and maybe some future structures with a "Retro" look) put to use for some of these things. Personally I never understood why the Convention Center was put where it was, but it wasn't my call then. It is my estimation however that had that NOT happened, the Train Terminal would probably not be there any longer , either. So now lets build a new center , on the riverfront ,no less and pray we can keep the thing booked.. What is the proposal for the existing convention center when the new one becomes reality? Would that then be utilized as part of the Train Station or JTA or what?
Quote* Raises hand... Can I just ask a question? Um.. how many bookings have been declined or did not happen because of the size of existing Convention Center? I would be curious to see that list as well..
Ultimately, this is a question best answered by SMG Jacksonville or the CVB.
QuoteWho markets Prime Osborn?
SMG - http://www.jaxevents.com/aboutsmg.php
QuoteI'm not being sarcastic about any of these questions, I simply do not know these things and I would like to. We apparently need a Riverfront Convention Center..fine .. I get that.
I would not say we "need" a "riverfront" convention center. I'd say if you want to convert the Prime Osborn back into a transportation center and not run off additional conventions, trade shows and businesses, you'll need a replacement facility. If you're going to replace the facility, it should be located adjacent complementing uses and properly sized for better utilization and connectivity purposes.
Quotebut what did we lose out on over say...the last 10 years because we did not have a large enough Center?
Again, this is a question best served for SMG or the CVB. However, from this discussion we know that we have lost nearly $140 million from groups that left from 2006 to 2008.
"Business groups that had planned to hold conventions at the center in 2007 but decided to go to another market equated to a loss of $48.4 million based on the room-nights they would have generated for the city, according to the Jacksonville & the Beaches Convention and Visitors Bureau. The city has lost nearly $140 million from groups that have left from 2006 to 2008.Two that relocated in 2009 were the Fire-Rescue Convention & Exposition and the State Cheer & Dance Championship.
"The CVB, which helps bring larger regional, state and national conventions that generate room-nights, most recently lost two of its larger clients for 2009. After 10 years of holding annual events at the Prime Osborn, the state's Fire-Rescue Convention & Exposition and The State Cheer & Dance Championships of Florida are moving to Daytona Beach, taking $3 million in economic impact.The Car & Truck Show has also stated that the obsolete Prime Osborn facility is not large enough to facilitate a larger event.
Opportunities for expanding events targeted at this market, such as the Jacksonville Spring Home & Patio Show and the Jacksonville International Car & Truck Show, are also limited. Reyes said associations that produce such events generate 60 percent to 70 percent of their revenue from them.
The Car & Truck Show, produced by event marketer Paragon Group Inc. of Massachusetts, has been at the Prime Osborn for nine years. For the past two years vehicles were placed on the grass lot in front of the Prime Osborn, in the parking lot and in lobbies. The Prime Osborn's doorways were changed to bring more vehicles to the lower rooms, said Barbara Pudney, vice president and show producer at Paragon.
Pudney said changing the doorways helped accommodate the Car & Truck Show's recent growth but an expanded Prime Osborn would facilitate an even bigger and better event.source: http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html?jst=pn_pn_lkIf you've stepped foot in a convention center in one of our peer cities, common sense would show that we have a subpar center.
1. It's outdated.
2. It's too small.
3. There is no attached convention center sized hotel.
4. There are no complementing uses (entertainment, dining, retail, etc.) within walking distance.
Conventions and trade shows are leaving because of these issues. Jacksonville won't be vibrant by continuing to run off more economic generators.
QuoteI am certainly pro-making Jacksonville a vibrant City again.... I just simply happen to be one of those apparently few , and growing of the group that would like to see some resemblance of our Historic Fabric (and maybe some future structures with a "Retro" look) put to use for some of these things.
I'm in favor of historic preservation as well. However, I fail to see what it has to do with a convention facility. Now let me ask you a question. Where in Jacksonville do we have a historic building large enough to house a convention center and still be adjacent to complementing uses? The only facility I can think of is the old Ford Plant but it's too isolated and has many of the same problems that plague the Prime Osborn site.
QuotePersonally I never understood why the Convention Center was put where it was, but it wasn't my call then. It is my estimation however that had that NOT happened, the Train Terminal would probably not be there any longer , either.
I wasn't in Jax back then but from my understanding, the placement of the convention center at the old train station saved it from demolition. Unfortunately, the city subsidized a hotel a mile down the street instead of right next to it and torn the neighborhood down that surrounded it, thus killing opportunities for complementing uses to open within walking distance.
QuoteSo now lets build a new center , on the riverfront ,no less and pray we can keep the thing booked..
What would suggest that we can't keep a decent mixed-use center booked and filled with activity? Just the preservation of existing conventions and trade shows would be a huge boost to the city if located on a site that promotes connectivity and better utilization. For example, imagine if the Florida Coastal Law School would have been constructed on a part of the new county courthouse site. Do you not think that would have been a boost for businesses in the Northbank?
QuoteWhat is the proposal for the existing convention center when the new one becomes reality? What is the proposal for the existing convention center when the new one becomes reality? Would that then be utilized as part of the Train Station or JTA or what?
If we can get the convention center out of the terminal, the proposal has always been to convert it back to its original use......a transportation center.
Here is a link to an article we ran on this a few months back: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-sep-a-vision-for-transit-in-jacksonville
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/455355060_QyaKc-M.jpg)
Current JTA Transportation Center plan. Building the transportation center around the Prime Osborn creates a sprawled out multimodal center (bad) and limits the convention center's potential (bad).(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/455453154_Mp93Z-M.jpg)
MJ Transportation Center concept. If we can get the convention center out of the way, we have an opportunity to create a compact multimodal center with room for adjacent transit oriented development opportunities (good).
Some interesting statistics from a 2007 discussion back during our MetJax days.
QuoteHere's an update on the impact of the meetings & convention groups arriving in Jacksonville this year...
As of February 6, the CVB has booked 150 groups scheduled to arrive in Jacksonville between January 1 and December 31, 2007
Those groups will result in 95,713 room nights and an estimated economic impact of $48.7 million.
For 95 of those groups, this will be their first time coming to Jacksonville... exposing thousands of newcomers to our city.
The newcomers represent 59,163 room nights and an estimated economic impact of $30.1 million
A "room night," for those unfamiliar with the term, is the standard measure of impact for the tourism industry. One hotel room booked for one night = one room night. One hotel room booked for a four-night stay = four room nights, etc. Why so important? Why measure a room night instead of the number of people traveling to town? Because for the hotel revenue generated by each room night booked in Duval County, the city receives 6 cents on the dollar in bed tax collection - one-third of which pays the debt on ALLTEL (oops - Jacksonville Municipal) Stadium, one-third pays the debt on the Prime Osborn and one-third is reinvested in tourism promotion through the Tourist Development Council. So the more room nights booked... the more outside tax dollars we generate for the city.
As another point of reference... a leisure traveler spends, on average, $127 per day in Jacksonville. A convention delegate? $290 per day on restaurants, retail, hotel and transportation - more than doubling the bottom line benefit for our local businesses.
http://www.metjax.com/forums/showpost.php?p=64789&postcount=42
How does it help this city and downtown to completely kick the opportunity to host conventions and trade shows to the curb?
You answered many of my questions, Lake. I do not have an answer for you at this point regarding a Historic Building but I definitely will try to find that and get back to you with an answer. There may not be one. I would have to look for that. You are correct about the FMC Assy Plant. Its location hurts it. So does Annie Lytle's ,apparently (and its lack of available land space for expansion.)
I think light rail should be invested in before a convention center. I think Orlando will always win out on the convention front.
In my opinion, a new convention center is the single most important issue this city faces. Many of these budget problems and cutbacks that are going on now could be alleviated if the city gained more money from bed taxes. A city the caliber of Jacksonville deserves something better than the current "closest space" we call our convention center. Take a trip to any other major city in this country and you will find a convention center pumping life into it. Jacksonville has ignored the need for a new convention center for far too long, and now many of the ill effects are starting to show. Until we show more of a concern for getting national attention in the form of conventions and other large events, Jacksonville will greatly struggle to be a real player in the national scene in almost every way.
Quote from: TheProfessor on July 19, 2010, 08:34:03 PM
I think light rail should be invested in before a convention center. I think Orlando will always win out on the convention front.
A new convention center/replacement has nothing to do with Orlando. The conventions they host are typically much larger than those in our market. If we are to convert the terminal back into a transporation center, we're going to have to find a solution to our convention center issue. Considering funding would most likely come from different sources, we should be able to find a way to move forward with improving both issues.
I agree with previous posters that the Prime Osborn Convention Center, in spite of its failure to be a success in its own right, helped the Jacksonville Terminal to live to see another day. That said, the convention space that we have now is woefully inadequate. I hope that the convention center issue is something that we bring up in the upcoming mayoral elections... We need a new mayor with a vision; this includes a vision for a convention center that better serves our needs and our visitors.
I do not know that I can agree that this is a #1 issue. but I do see the need for a larger facility now
I only read 4 pages of comments, but I feel I should chime in, too. There is a middle ground here. I agree wholeheartedly with Stephen that we have been wasting time and money trying to be a convention city, and we should not spend another dime doing so. That being said, we should still have a convention center fit for our city and the Hyatt will not do it alone. An "exhibition hall" connected to the Hyatt and most likely run by a separate entity would do just fine. We need at least 150,000 SF of contiguous space, but we don't need much more than that, and the Hyatt already has sufficient space for smaller groups. The Hyatt is also a large enough hotel to host decently sized conventions and smaller conventions together.
I know we have already discussed this whole thing at length, and I originally thought we were all on the same page of bringing a medium sized center to the courthouse site. I think the real question is what's the city's priority, budget wise. The convention center may not be it for the next administration. Multi-modal transportation hub may not be it, either, and is potentially more expensive. In this economy, I highly doubt both can be done in a single time frame.
2 last things to note: the convention business is DYING everywhere. Chicago, NYC, San Diego, etc have all seen convention business drop by large numbers (replaced by some cities, but an overall drop all across the board). These cities all have really large centers with well over a million SF. Jax would do with just a couple hundred thousand SF.
We have better weather than most convention cities, barring SoCal, and we have water and palm trees. I think we would do well, and people would enjoy coming down for conventions, IF we placed a center correctly, provided adjacent hotel rooms, provided public space like the Riverwalk, and provided connectivity to entertainment. In this mold, the courthouse site works.
A convention center is also a good thing for the corporate sector, which is lagging in Jax, especially downtown right now. Companies locate where people are locating, and people are locating to places they like. Convention centers provide publicity for cities, and bring people in. Jax is already growing fairly steadily (before 2008), all we need is better publicity. The two combined could help attract more companies to locate in Jax, and hopefully downtown. And no, I am not talking about F500 companies, per se, but smaller companies that have room to grow and expand (and can move more easily).
Quote from: Timkin on July 19, 2010, 10:00:44 PM
I do not know that I can agree that this is a #1 issue. but I do see the need for a larger facility now
I do not think that a convention center is our number one aim, but it should be part of our plans for the future. I think it is about time that we had a mayor who could inspire us and our city to be greater. I do not believe that the recession excuses us from having such leaders. In the depths of the Great Depression, Mayor La Guardia (I am not too sure about Robert Moses' contributions, though) helped NYC through very hard times. The next mayor should be leading the charge with a visible effort to put our city on the map. I do not believe that our current mayor has the moxie.
(http://cache.virtualtourist.com/2107533-Pacific_SurflinerAmtrak-San_Diego.jpg)
In case you didn't notice, trains are back! With a little imagination this scene could be OUR OWN!
As one of the resident transportation guys, and maybe our only railroad planner, I'd guarantee you that Jacksonville doesn't have to fight for HUB status for Amtrak, HSR or any other rail project, we will always win that be default. God blessed us with the location and Mister's Plant, Flagler and Williams did the rest. We are the undisputed King of the rail's in Florida, and we see more cargo then most other major Southern cities. Because those rail lines ALL pass through Jax to reach the rest of the state we have a captive customer situation. Sadly we have ignored it so long that the State thinks it can change geography by sending a train from Orlando to Tampa or Miami. This might work but it will be a minimal situation at best, meanwhile as the markets to the north and west demand better rail connections (read that improved track and fast Amtrak trains) guess which is the only city in Florida that can provide any of the needed station facilities, and junction's to pull it off? DUH? YEAH! JACKSONVILLE!
100% of the problem with the "Prime Osbourne" is that it sits on what is rightly the railroad terminal of the Southeastern USA! Don't think so? Until the Bush/Clinton cuts in Amtrak, we still fielded 12 passenger trains daily in and out of Jacksonville, some of these split up forming two trains south of our city. While we were posting these impressive numbers, Memphis had 2, Atlanta 2, Charlotte 4, Nashville 0, Louisville 2, Little Rock 2, Dallas 2, Houston 2 tri weekly, New Orleans 8, Birmingham 2, Mobile 2 tri weekly... Starting to see my point??
WE MUST GET OUR STATION UP AND RUNNING DOWNTOWN in time to meet the new Amtrak trains down the Florida East Coast. Amtrak wants to split and SERVICE all trains in JACKSONVILLE AGAIN! What's in it for us?
According to the GAO For fiscal years 2002 through 2004, Amtrak's food and beverage expenses were about $487 million. Hey, that's before anyone washed the uniforms, table cloths, or set up the plates, cups, saucers, or fueled the train, or ordered the table flowers, or washed the cars, or ?? See what I mean??
(http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10092006d.jpg)
Sure looks like home!
The mantra is "The Prime Must Go!" close it, move it, sell it to the circus, stick it under a bridge, send it to the fairground's, but whatever we do, get it the hell out of JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL!
(http://www.trainweb.org/sp5623/5623dh2f.jpg)
This is about all we need to make our station soar, interestingly this train in this photo is a little streamliner from San Francisco to Monterrey called the "Del Monte", think for a moment, G A I N E S V I L L E ! T A L L A H A S S E E !
After we have taken out the convention center, let's reopen the mother of all railroad stations South of Washington DC!
OCKLAWAHA
* Salutes Ocklawaha ! No Argument here. I definitely DO NOT want to see that Terminal Demolished. It is way too beautiful.
Ocklawaha you make a great point about connecting to Gainesville and Tallahassee, just think of all the students that could make the commute home for the weekends. But that alone is just a small point in creating a more appealing station. The old station is simply gorgeous! I honestly have never had reason to use the rail system but if I knew I could get off in Jacksonville at a place like that it would truly make me more prone to using the rail.
I guess the real question is wether to rid of a convention center all together, merge it with a new (old) station or rebuild. I think for the time being a merge of the two could work, it may even help draw the out of town crowds to the convention center.
It makes sense to me to merge the two from a dollar viewpoint! Both venues could enhance both entities, but it is a matter of having the will and the direction of City Hall! Yea..............like that could happen! City Hall can not direct themselves out of the financial hole it is currently in so what makes us think they have that planning and vision also? Makes sense to me like I said but with the current convention center booked to the years end with all of the planned activities (whopee!) vision, imagination and some hard core planning will be needed!
Merging the two in the long run would be a disaster for both. A merge does nothing to fix the need for a convention center hotel or nearby retail, entertainment and dining. A merge also results in a sprawled out non-user friendly transportation center. If you're going to invest millions for either option, you might as well make sure get the most out of your investment.
I agree with Ock about restoring Amtrak service to Tallahassee and for implementing direct access to Gainesville.
Amtrak would be an improvement for those who want to visit the state's capital city. I know folks who were coming back home from FSU and enjoyed the affordable price. It sure beats driving down one of the most boring stretches of highway that I have ever seen...
As for Gainesville, since there is no direct interstate access to Hogtown, it would help to find a direct route. I recall that Waldo was the nearest Amtrak station, but is not feasible for those who need a better connection into Gainesville...
Quote from: thelakelander on July 20, 2010, 02:05:35 PM
Merging the two in the long run would be a disaster for both. A merge does nothing to fix the need for a convention center hotel or nearby retail, entertainment and dining. A merge also results in a sprawled out non-user friendly transportation center. If you're going to invest millions for either option, you might as well make sure get the most out of your investment.
I was about to say this as well. Merging the two only limits the potential of both. I know you hate spending money CS, but this is one of those pay for it now or pay for it for the rest of our lives type scenarios.
Quote from: Jaxson on July 20, 2010, 04:43:22 PM
I agree with Ock about restoring Amtrak service to Tallahassee and for implementing direct access to Gainesville.
Amtrak would be an improvement for those who want to visit the state's capital city. I know folks who were coming back home from FSU and enjoyed the affordable price. It sure beats driving down one of the most boring stretches of highway that I have ever seen...
As for Gainesville, since there is no direct interstate access to Hogtown, it would help to find a direct route. I recall that Waldo was the nearest Amtrak station, but is not feasible for those who need a better connection into Gainesville...
There is still an all rail route into the heart of Gainesville. It runs Jacksonville - Baldwin - Lawtey - Starke - Brooker - Alachua (South edge known as Burnetts Lake) - Gainesville. No reason why it couldn't be used.OCKLAWAHA
Is this rail UNUSED at this point ?
I had always assumed that the rail line to Gainesville was done away with. I wonder what politician was able to finagle a station to Waldo at the expense of Gainesville. Hmmm...
Quote from: Jaxson on July 20, 2010, 11:05:27 PM
I had always assumed that the rail line to Gainesville was done away with. I wonder what politician was able to finagle a station to Waldo at the expense of Gainesville. Hmmm...
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TEb-PYMgTjI/AAAAAAAAC04/dcYcp1KycgQ/s800/Florida%20Rail%20Map%202006.jpg)
None, Waldo was the Seaboards "Gainesville" station ever since the Great Depression took out the balance of the line from Archer to Cedar Key. A local motor (something like a modern DMU) train made a LONG run from Waldo to Tampa via -Gainesville-Archer-Early Bird-Dunnellon-Inverness-Brooksville-Sulfur Springs- for some time after but it never amounted to much. The pre-Amtrak railroad had arranged a bus to meet the trains for the balance of the trip into town. By the time Amtrak came into being 1971, this route was toast except for the Waldo station.
The Atlantic Coast Line had a route that ran south from Baldwin (the current bike trail) through Lake Butler to Alachua and into Gainesville on it's way to Ocala-Leesburg-Trilby-St. Petersburg. This line was also cut up after the Seaboard merger. The new railroad took part of another Seaboard branchline from Starke westward to Bell, and tied it into the old North-South Coast Line route. This created the current Starke-Alachua-Gainesville route.
Because of a power plant over at Crystal River, (the current end of the line) this branch is in excellent shape from Starke to Alachua. At Alachua it picks up the former Coast Line into Gainesville (a branch of a branch) which is kept in fair shape into town. The whole thing could be brought up to speed with little money or effort, in fact the station at 6Th and University is currently a health department, and the platform is still in place, the track cut back to about 23Rd. (http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TEb-PTu6qpI/AAAAAAAAC08/qGjIL_IXfok/s400/005.jpg)
Right of Way south of University today
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TEb-P9MrdAI/AAAAAAAAC1I/rOanenTe1XM/s400/021.jpg)
Right of Way north of Gainesville Station @ 18 blocks
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TEb-PqFGtqI/AAAAAAAAC1A/7PKumq3ZxGo/s400/023.jpg)
Current end of track, track conditions to Alachua
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TEb-Pm-vB6I/AAAAAAAAC1E/fBP-u6NaKbE/s400/025.jpg)
Current track condition Alachua-Starke
OCKLAWAHA
There are tons of old right of ways in gville, a lot are now rail trails but there are still plenty unimproved ones. We used lots of them on urban MTB rides.
They don't look bad to not be in use ! wow.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 15, 2010, 10:37:51 PM
Amtrak can be accommodated at the old terminal regardless of the convention center's situation. Jax just needs to find a way to come up with the money to pay for the train station's relocation.
Amtrak is NEVER coming back to the old terminal! But Amtrak would be better served if it wasn't on the Northside of Jax. So how about moving it to this area of Jax. Across the street from the Metro bar, get that pest control business to move. There would be a lot of room for the new Amtrak Terminal and parking. Along with the new side tracks for the Amtrak trains. And it would be easier to get onto I 95 north and south and Interstate 10.
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on July 22, 2010, 09:27:44 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 15, 2010, 10:37:51 PM
Amtrak can be accommodated at the old terminal regardless of the convention center's situation. Jax just needs to find a way to come up with the money to pay for the train station's relocation.
Amtrak is NEVER coming back to the old terminal! But Amtrak would be better served if it wasn't on the Northside of Jax. So how about moving it to this area of Jax. Across the street from the Metro bar, get that pest control business to move. There would be a lot of room for the new Amtrak Terminal and parking. Along with the new side tracks for the Amtrak trains. And it would be easier to get onto I 95 north and south and Interstate 10.
Sorry, but Amtrak is most certainly planning on the old terminal. The ball is in our court, and according to the VP of passenger services, they may also consider stops in South Jacksonville and/or Yukon and Baldwin in the future. We must get the station up and in shape to handle this plus Commuter Rail which is also coming at us fast. OCKLAWAHA
Yes! Invest in a new convention center and return the train station back to it's original purpose of being a transportation hub or point of destination for Jax!
"HU"
It says Jacksonville Terminal on the front of the Building. Terminal it should be :)
Quote from: Timkin on July 22, 2010, 11:37:32 PM
It says Jacksonville Terminal on the front of the Building. Terminal it should be :)
I agree, and I also support moving the convention center to the old courthouse site. Completing these two tasks would really be great.
Also I like the idea of an Gainesville-Jacksonville connection. However first I want Jacksonville itself to get commuter rail and streetcars.
Our convention center needs to have at least 200,000 sq. ft of EXHIBITION SPACE, currently we have 78,500.
Plus we have a beautiful river, we need to make use of it. So move it on the river!!
One thing good on this thread is at least 98% or more want the Jax Terminal returned to transportation. Why are we so split on the convention center? Stephendare, you normally make good sense, however, this time I must disagree with you. What Lake says makes perfect sense.
Even in a little hubba bubba city like Chattanooga, Tn I can see their foot traffic increase because of their convention center.
There is no history because we never constructed or invested in a workable facility. In a similar fashion, we can't say the Skyway is a complete failure because we never built or operated in a manner to where it would work or become reliable. We also can't say people won't walk in this town because we haven't invested in an urban landscape where walking would be a desirable thing to do.
Anyway, I agree 100% that we should not build a nex convention center as the centerpiece of a revitalization plan. That would be a fools errand. However, it's also fools errand to run off the conventions, trade shows and special events we already have because of substandard facilities and locational issues. Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, it makes sense to turn a lemon into lemonade. A relocation of the convention center to the Bay Street courthouse site does this on so many levels that it's hard to make a logical case not to do so.
Well the current Convention Center, is short on space plus it lacks the infrastructure surrounding it, hotels, eateries and boutique shops in order to be self sustaining! If the Prime were to return to being what it was, then something else would have to be built if sharing (I do understand why some people are against the concept.....do not agree with it but understand) is not a logical idea! If the Prime as is, does not have sufficient area for the type of displaying needed, then it was doomed to failure from the start by the Nifty Fifty who talked the City into taking it over as a convention center! Right now, it is not suitable for either with out changes taking place! As a convention center......the whole second level is not used and the lower floor is not big enough to do the job! As a Rail Center, with minimal cost, we could be off and running! Move it to somewhere that takes advantage of what the river has to offer and lets get it going!
If we are going to move forth on a new one, lets please make this one count! Lake.. I apologize for my difference with you on this topic, but I have to agree that the one we have as it is now is not what it should or could be..
As a slightly inebriated transportation guy, I have to say I really don't give a damn what happens with the Convention Center as-is. Just get it the hell out of my train station! 7-11 anyone? As I have said, I really don't give a damn and I'll put 100T% of my faith in Lake and his urban planner views, after all, he depends on my transit views! Follow The Lakelander or be damned Jacksonville, if you to ride watch MJ we'll be critiquing every plan with REAL professionals!!
OCKLAWAHA
SOCO VERSION!!
God forbid that happen after the last 50 years :) ..
It will not hurt my feelings ANY to see the current convention center serving another purpose.
I have just read through this thread and, believe it or not, I am inclined to side with Mr. Dare on this one. I have suggested before that the convention center would be best suited for either the Shipyards or in the stadium area.
Looking at an aerial ( http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Jacksonville+Veterans+Memorial+Arena,+Jacksonville,+FL&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=53.477264,135.263672&ie=UTF8&hq=Jacksonville+Veterans+Memorial+Arena,&hnear=Jacksonville,+Duval,+Florida&ll=30.32399,-81.641314&spn=0.014392,0.033023&t=h&z=16 ) of the subject properties, I continue to think that the courthouse site is not fully adequate for our long term needs if we are serious about doing a convention center right and for the money it would cost to rebuild. I still believe we need a minimum square to rectangular footprint of 6 to 8 acres to accommodate an exhibit hall of 150,000 to 200,000 square feet plus support services and support vehicle parking and access. The old courthouse site just doesn't cut it.
Putting it in walkable proximity to the arena, ballpark, and stadium creates synergies in parking, access, and traffic management for large numbers of attendees as well as the opportunity for larger events to make use of the combined capacity of these venues to host large event demands for seating and/or indoor (Arena) and/or outdoor (fields of the ballpark or stadium) exhibit areas. Additionally, Metro park provides ready access to waterfront (for boat shows and tourist/visitors) and an eventual connection to an extended riverwalk. The Jax Fairgrounds offer even more exhibit space and sundry facilities.
Looking at the aerial, Parking Lot J of the stadium looks viable (possibly with the area occupied by the retention pond if the guy wires for the TV antenna could be re-engineered). An alternate would be the lots between the stadium west entrance and the ballpark. While a political nightmare, the fairgrounds site would also be a candidate.
With clever design and good land use management, hotels and restaurants could line surrounding streets (Randolph, Adams, Duval, Palmetto, Georgia). And ideal would be hotels over garages with ground floor retail facing the streets.
Atlanta has an outlying convention center and the granddaddy of them all, Orlando, was built far from Orlando's downtown. Orlando's worked because there was a master plan that was adhered to to bring development in and around the convention center, such development able to fall back on International Drive traffic if the convention center isn't delivering. Likewise, hotels at a stadium district convention center would have alternate business from all the events in the surrounding facilities. Having waterfront amenities via Metro Park would further entice visitors to such a hotel.
Lastly, running a streetcar down Bay Street/Gator Bowl Boulevard would be icing on the cake in creating the desirable connectivity with Downtown and the East Bay entertainment corridor.
This plan, to me, provides all the upside with little to no disadvantages to alternate sites.
By the way, I don't think we owe the Hyatt any special favors. It was built by Adams Mark with free land from the City and never was a promise made to have the convention center adjacent to it, just a Super Bowl. And, we delivered on that.
I also agree that a convention center, like the Jaguars, is "fun" to have but it won't cure any of the ills in this community, just make it more tolerable to look the other way by building our self esteem. That's an intangible that is hard to value. I do support making PO a multimodal station without it being a convention center so I guess that puts the CC in play at some point. Just don't expect the sun to burn any brighter just because we build it. It will more likely be a bigger money drain than the one we have now.
Someone also needs to examine the general future of CC's. With teleconferencing, the internet, social networking, etc., will the convention business shrink or grow?
I concur on LOCATION, stjr. I do not think it needs to be on the site of the Courthouse. Just another opinion.... but I definitely can see where it needs to go away from Jacksonville Terminal.
As you know, we differ on the location of a new convention center for many of the issues that have already been debated time and time again, so no need to go back and question most of your reply above. So I'll skip down to this one.
QuoteI also agree that a convention center, like the Jaguars, is "fun" to have but it won't cure any of the ills in this community, just make it more tolerable to look the other way by building our self esteem. That's an intangible that is hard to value. I do support making PO a multimodal station without it being a convention center so I guess that puts the CC in play at some point. Just don't expect the sun to burn any brighter just because we build it. It will more likely be a bigger money drain than the one we have now.
Someone also needs to examine the general future of CC's. With teleconferencing, the internet, social networking, etc., will the convention business shrink or grow?
It seems like we have a tendency to focus on what we don't have instead of trying to keep and better utilize what we do have. Even with advances in technology, it's hard to see trade shows, car shows, competitions, job fairs, etc. disappearing with the use of teleconferencing, the internet and social networking. There's still something about people to people interaction that technology will never replace.
Assuming the PO goes back to transportation what do you propose we do with our existing events that use this facility? Should we just let them leave town because having an exhibition hall may not turn a profit? Also, why should we expect a public exhibition hall to make a direct profit on it's own but not have the same view towards roads, mass transit, parks, public schools and libraries?
Regarding location, the most important factor to remember is that we are not starting from scratch. A convention center is not going to revitalize anything on it's own, which hurts the idea of it drawing new development on the stadium's parking lots (if this was the case, LaVilla would be loaded with development today). We've seen how spreading our investments out does not stimulate synergy. Why continue to repeat this dead end pattern? Instead of making it a one trick pony that's doomed for failure due to not solving the issue of complete isolation, it's better to place in an area that helps existing businesses and investments, unless we're willing to subsidize a lot more private development in a market that can't support it.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 25, 2010, 12:19:00 AM
Regarding location, the most important factor to remember is that we are not starting from scratch. A convention center is not going to revitalize anything on it's own, which hurts the idea of it drawing new development on the stadium's parking lots (if this was the case, LaVilla would be loaded with development today).
Lake, you make a good point about the failings of City led development efforts. And, LaVilla and the existing Convention Center are at the top of the list. The solution is to have a master plan and a commitment by the City and private interests to build out on Day 1 the minimum threshold of improvement necessary to create a sustainable success without dependency on further investment. Or, forget going forward.
I think this tenant applies to a new CC wherever it goes. To get there, the City needs to properly fulfill the role of developer and bring the inter-related parts together reliably. Making the best decision for the future of the CC should not be held back due to the prior failure of the City to execute properly. Instead, we should learn from our past mistakes and hold the City accountable for doing it right going forward. Limiting our possibilities to doing things right in the future due to past incompetency is not an acceptable outcome. If Jax can't execute this project correctly, let's not even start the process. And, continue to expect our past frustrations to be perpetuated.
Let's stop lowering the bar and start raising it.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 25, 2010, 12:15:37 AM
It seems like we have a tendency to focus on what we don't have instead of trying to keep and better utilize what we do have. Even with advances in technology, it's hard to see trade shows, car shows, competitions, job fairs, etc. disappearing with the use of teleconferencing, the internet and social networking. There's still something about people to people interaction that technology will never replace.
Assuming the PO goes back to transportation what do you propose we do with our existing events that use this facility? Should we just let them leave town because having an exhibition hall may not turn a profit? Also, why should we expect a public exhibition hall to make a direct profit on it's own but not have the same view towards roads, mass transit, parks, public schools and libraries?
Lake, I never said to live without a CC or that it had to make money. I merely pointed out that we need to do our due diligence in figuring out what we need, that we have a viable business model, and agree on how much we are prepared to suffer financially to enable it to succeed. My point is to prepare the taxpayers properly and to make sure reality matches our expectations. Or, risk getting another black eye for a public project. Don't we have enough of those already?
lets downsize... move it to the LaVilla Seafood Restaurant that never opened.
.....Im kidding !
By the way, any "ballpark" (no pun intended ;) ) cost, land excluded, to build a 150,000 to 200,000 net exhibition sf CC? I am thinking north of $100 million.
Fair points, stjr. As for costs, Biloxi just completed a 200,000 square foot addition to the Mississippi Gulf Coast Convention Center. It ended up costing them $80 million, which was significantly more than original estimates of $57 million. Excluding land, demolition costs, etc. something around the $100 million range is probably realistic.
QuoteBILOXI, MS (WLOX) - It took almost three years, and $80 million. Now the vision of an expanded coliseum and convention center is reality. From 180,000 square feet to more than 400,000, the new expansion is big and beautiful.
Paula April is the marketing director for the complex. She is busy these days, but wants to be even busier.
"Quite naturally, if you have hotel then you can go to the next level and book even more business and that's what we're trying to do is extend our market out so that we can get absolutely everything that's due us."
Before Katrina, there were motels near the coliseum, but the storm took care of that, leaving nothing but empty space. Now there are five potential sites that could be used for a hotel. And not just any hotel, said Coliseum Director Bill Holmes.
"If a developer were to select a site here on the grounds, we would expect that it would be a 400 to 500 room hotel and that it would be a major convention center flag, and we wouldn't accept anything less."
While business has been brisk at the coast coliseum and convention center over the years, and has always been a fairly easy sell as well, Holmes said the job would be much easier with a hotel on premises.
"Having a hotel on the property would allow us to compete harder with some of the bigger cities like Atlanta and Houston."
Holmes said he met with two high powered developers last week with deep enough pockets to complete a deal. If and when that happens, Holmes said Atlanta and Houston may end up looking over their shoulders at the coast.
Before any deal could be finalized, the coliseum commission would have to approve the plans.
http://www.wlox.com/Global/story.asp?S=12844851
Well a new Convention Center would take property, money and the will of the public! Having a plan and the means to implement it would be nice......along with some kind of vision and a plan! I would not count on this administration to do much of anything only because of John Boy being a lame duck! This might be something to discuss with all of the potiential mayoral candidates!
Just curious. Hypothetically, if we had to choose to spend $100M on either a new convention center or streetcar (but not both), which of the two do you guys think would bring greater economic benefit to the core?
Without a doubt, a streetcar would be more beneficial. Jacksonville lacks urban connectivity and reliable fixed mass transit is the one thing that can truly bring multiple neighborhoods together. Transportation infrastructure attracts market rate private development. A convention center on the other hand won't but would help keep existing businesses and hotels open by sending them a steady stream of out-of-town guest with money to spend. This in turn helps create diversified pedestrian activity needed for a 24/7 urban atmosphere. This is why it's better to locate a new convention center in an established area where it can be a part of the scene, as opposed to being the make or break anchor in the middle of isolation.
Luckily, funding for these types of projects would come from different sources. So hypothetically, you could build a streetcar system, transportation system, convention center, expand the port, enhance education, extend library hours, etc. at the same time.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 25, 2010, 08:40:30 AM
Luckily, funding for these types of projects would come from different sources. So hypothetically, you could build a streetcar system, transportation system, convention center, expand the port, enhance education, extend library hours, etc. at the same time.
Not if any number of candidates on the state and local level win elections based on promises to slash taxes. We need candidates who are not afraid to say that providing desired government services requires money.
You're right! This is why it is important for residents to learn the issues and vote for a viable candidate in 2011. We're at a crucial point in this city's history. We can turn the corner or fall further behind depending on who gets in office and what their priorities are.
^^ The reason th P.O. has been unsuccessful is because it is too small and does not have any amenties. What's so hard to understand about that? It was a lousy location from day one and it has not keep tup with industry trends and needs from day one. That is why it has steadily declined in useage.
Quote from: stephendare on July 25, 2010, 10:27:13 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 24, 2010, 07:31:04 PM
There is no history because we never constructed or invested in a workable facility. In a similar fashion, we can't say the Skyway is a complete failure because we never built or operated in a manner to where it would work or become reliable. We also can't say people won't walk in this town because we haven't invested in an urban landscape where walking would be a desirable thing to do.
Anyway, I agree 100% that we should not build a nex convention center as the centerpiece of a revitalization plan. That would be a fools errand. However, it's also fools errand to run off the conventions, trade shows and special events we already have because of substandard facilities and locational issues. Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, it makes sense to turn a lemon into lemonade. A relocation of the convention center to the Bay Street courthouse site does this on so many levels that it's hard to make a logical case not to do so.
If our present convention center fails to bring in any of the small gatherings of less than 2000 people that are the bread and butter of the large convention centers, despite 50 years of marketing and experience, what on earth convinces you that giving them a bigger building will increase sales in the group of people that they are already large enough to attract?
Location... Location... Location. The Prime O doesn't fail because it is too small. It fails because there is nothing around it. No restaurants... no lodging... no night clubs... no walking...
IF we are to build a convention center... Bay Street is the place it belongs.
Im gonna guess location. There still is no lodging. As an attender of various conventions myself... I want places to go to eat and drink... perhaps shop. I want to walk it or at least have reliable mass transit... I want to explore the city... not be stuck in a small corner.
Downtown... along the river... gets my vote...
QuoteIf our present convention center fails to bring in any of the small gatherings of less than 2000 people that are the bread and butter of the large convention centers, despite 50 years of marketing and experience
Stephen, if we're going to throw local numbers out there, let's go with facts. Two large events that left the Prime Osborn because of space constraints had 23,000 visitors at Daytona's convention center the first year after leaving Jacksonville.
The Ocean Center last year hosted two of the largest events in its history. The Spirit Team State Cheer and Dance Championships was the first spectator event to use all of the Ocean Center’s space, drawing more than 13,000 participants and spectators for a three-day competition. Fire Rescue East followed a few weeks later, sponsored by the Florida Fire Chiefs Association. This four-day trade show also used the entire facility, with 250 exhibits and almost 10,000 delegates.
These two shows were among 62 events held at the Ocean Center last year. They would not have been possible without the 200,000 square feet of indoor exhibit and meeting space created by the expansion. The Ocean Center is our most prestigious public building, only a few steps from the world’s most famous beach, and we love to show it off! Our staff has worked with the Ocean Walk Village, the Daytona Beach Convention and Visitors Bureau and local hoteliers to host familiarization tours for meeting and convention organizers and industry writers. We are off to a great start and we anticipate hosting 92 events this year with an expected attendance of more than 330,000 people. All of this occurred with the Ocean Center maintaining a balanced budget.source: www.volusia.org/countycouncil/state10.htm
Do you think places like Marks, Dos Gatos, Poppy Love Smoke, TSI, Florida Theatre, the Landing, etc. would not like to see 23,000 more people walking past their front doors (assuming the space is relocated to the courthouse site)? Do you not think that a portion of those 23,000 people spent some money on food, shopping or hotels at some point in their trip to these former DT Jacksonville events?
Quotewhat on earth convinces you that giving them a bigger building will increase sales in the group of people that they are already large enough to attract?
I mentioned this before and every naysayer continues to overlook or ignore it. We have a substandard facility and we already benefit from existing trade shows, job fairs, expos, competitions and conventions. Instead of worrying about increasing sales we need to be worrying about keeping, improving and better utilizing what we already have in place. This line of thinking not only applies to a convention center, but existing building fabric, arts & culture, parks, neighborhoods, the ASE, etc.
In addition to this, it's already been proven that our convention center is too small in the form of long time events bailing our establishment for better facilities. The quote above gives you the attendance number of two events that left downtown Jacksonville.
Quote from: stephendare on July 25, 2010, 11:09:44 AM
If thats true, then why didnt it work when there were three nightclubs, several restaurants, and all of the buildings on Park and Riverside were still standing--not to mention the skyway connection?
LOL, you're expecting out-of-town convention delegates to walk a mile from the Prime Osborn through Brooklyn to get to a few isolated businesses or use a skyway to access a convention center hotel that is five blocks away from the nearest skyway stop. That's the type of thinking that has downtown looking like it is today. Come on, you can't be serious?
Quote from: stjr on July 24, 2010, 11:59:48 PM
I still believe we need a minimum square to rectangular footprint of 6 to 8 acres to accommodate an exhibit hall of 150,000 to 200,000 square feet plus support services and support vehicle parking and access. The old courthouse site just doesn't cut it.
1 acre = 43,560 square feet...so we would only need 3.5 to 4.5 acres to meet your exhibit hall size...assuming that we build a 2 (or more) story facility w/ meeting rooms, banquest space, and retail on one floor and the exhibit hall on the other.
I believe the best thing to do is build a center on the current courthouse and parking lot blocks....and build the parking garage at the old city hall annex (behind the Hyatt) w/ the ability to construct a building above it.
Based on my Google map measuring, the courthouse/parking block is about 500' x 750' = 375,000 square feet...or 8.5+ acres...and the old city hall annes site is around 380' x 325' = 123,500 square feet...or just under 3 acres.
If that's the plan, then I can't believe we're going to demolish another highrise to put in another parking garage...
While I understand the need for a convention center to have its own parking, I think our downtown is unique in already having a 4-to-1 ratio of parking spaces to people, not counting this new idea for knocking down another high rise for another parking garage. Surely something can be done to utilize existing parking, and find another use for the old City Hall building? Or at least its property. Preferably something that doesn't involve more parking.
Your 4-1 parking claim has never been substantiated...that said, I agree that we have more parking downtown than we need....so what if it was a hotel w/ an integrated garage that also served the convenion center...would that be ok?
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 25, 2010, 12:25:56 PM
Your 4-1 parking claim has never been substantiated...that said, I agree that we have more parking downtown than we need....so what if it was a hotel w/ an integrated garage that also served the convenion center...would that be ok?
Actually it was wholly substantiated.
What remains unsubstantiated were your nonsensical and contradictory arguments to the contrary, wherein you insisted there were at least 18,000 workers downtown, and claimed there were 2,000 people working in the Modis tower alone, and on and on ad nauseum. All based on outdated and decade-old figures.
Everything you posted was thoroughly debunked within minutes, and yet here you are making the same arguments again in a new thread, where readers don't have the benefit of having seen the outcome of the prior debate, and the dispositive evidence posted therein.
Since you are trying to re-start a debate you already lost in another thread that ran to 20 pages in length on this very same issue, I would humbly suggest to the moderators that your response ought to be re-located to the other thread where you already tried arguing all of this and failed miserably. If you want to re-start this debate, you should do it in that thread, where the readers will see all of the evidence that was posted that thoroughly disproved your argument.
But to continue restarting debates you already lost in other threads in new threads, where you know readers won't have the benefit of all of the evidence that has already disproved your assertions, is disingenuous at best.
Oh but as to the hotel with integrated garage, I think de-facto that will wind up becoming the Hyatt won't it? They already have their own parking. I am not sure what the exact solution would be, I am just pretty unhappy about the fact that we're discussing tearing down another 20-story building and replacing it with a parking garage.
That's the exact type of thinking that got downtown to the pitiful state it's in today.
QuoteThat's the exact type of thinking that got downtown to the pitiful state it's in today.
Not sure this is true. Tearing down buildings... and not replacing them... is the biggest part of the problem. The courthouse is not exactly an architectural marvel nor is it "historic". I am 100% against tearing building stock down that is unique or historic in nature.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on July 25, 2010, 12:51:12 PM
QuoteThat's the exact type of thinking that got downtown to the pitiful state it's in today.
Not sure this is true. Tearing down buildings... and not replacing them... is the biggest part of the problem. The courthouse is not exactly an architectural marvel nor is it "historic". I am 100% against tearing building stock down that is unique or historic in nature.
Historic preservation's a whole nother animal. My issue is pretty simple, we're taking down a high density highrise building to replace it with yet another parking garage. I don't mind the courthouse going, since that is being replaced with the convention center, it's net zero loss. But Tufsu is suggesting tearing down the old city hall and making that another parking garage. That's the part I'm objecting to. We already have way more than enough parking, and that high density building houses hundreds of workers.
Ah... I see now. I wonder if that building coud be refurbished into an addition to the Hyatt?
chris...I'm suggesting replacing it with another building...most convention center cities have one main hotel and at least one other smallert hotel adjacent....for example, Tampa has the 750+ room Marriott Waterside and the 350+ room Embassy Suites...both are official convention center hotels.
And like many other buildings downtown, I am saying it would have integrated parking...also it would be required to have ground floor commercial space along Bay St.
Also, I would be fine re-using the existing building if that is feasible.
Quote from: stephendare on July 25, 2010, 12:41:13 PM
618 and the rest of that was all still open a block away
618? You'll need more than that. Like a major hotel for example.
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 25, 2010, 01:00:35 PM
chris...I'm suggesting replacing it with another building...most convention center cities have one main hotel and at least one other smallert hotel adjacent....for example, Tampa has the 750+ room Marriott Waterside and the 350+ room Embassy Suites...both are official convention center hotels.
And like many other buildings downtown, I am saying it would have integrated parking...also it would be required to have ground floor commercial space along Bay St.
Also, I would be fine re-using the existing building if that is feasible.
That's not a bad idea and re-use would save money. Sorry for jumping on you there Tufsu, I just started having visions of another high rise biting the dust to make one more parking garage and about got sick to my stomach. It wasn't you, it's just that I'm pretty passionate about not losing what little density is still left down there. So much has been lost.
Quote from: stephendare on July 25, 2010, 01:07:34 PM
The Omni perhaps? Its literally four minutes by skyway.
There was 618, Wormans, Edies, The Voodoo Lounge, Tads, Paradome, the OP, and all the restaurants that bounded that end of downtown. There really were plenty of things to choose from before the dynamite fever set in.
The closest things you mentioned (Worman's, Voodoo Lounge) are nearly a 1/2 mile walk in the sun from the front door of the Prime Osborn. Hop in your car and you can make it to Regency in the A/C before completing that walk which you will sweat your perm out in the process of doing.
We both know that there is a difference in something being attached (hotel) and across the street (entertainment/restaurants, etc.) verses those uses being scattered on multiple blocks like someone kicked an ant hill. One option gives you a "district" just like Five Points or 8th & Main a few years back. Another gives you what downtown Jacksonville is today, which is a colossal failure.
When you're "attached" you don't need to take mass transit. You can enter and leave without ever walking in the elements. The skyway doesn't even run on the weekends, so that's no good when it comes to a convention facility needing an "attached" adjacent hotel.
It's also important to remember that our local facility competes against those in other cities for the same events. So you're definitely at risk to lose even your home grown events if all you have to offer them is a second rate facility and environment.
Well if the Prime returns to its designed useage, then something will have to be done and there is only so much useable land either at the old Courthouse location, Annex or even the Ship Yards location! Since City Hall appears to have no clue or any idea at all about this issue, then maybe this would appear to be something to add to the mayoral race platforms? Coming mayor will have their hands full , no matter who it is, but they need to have some idea on what they would like to do or sponsor or propose, IMHO! This is something that needs to be in black and white........no studies........no consulting, just an outright ......well here is what I think we need to do....plain and simple! No matter who it is, they will not be able to please everyone, but they do need to be precise and articulate enough to paint an idea verbally! That is just my take on one of alot of issues that confront us!
Quote from: stephendare on July 25, 2010, 03:21:38 PM
Its the city, not the facility. Its not geared for Conventions. Perhaps if we brought the bordellos back and re established Houston Street, and then relocated everyone at the municipal stadium.....until then....meh.
That's like saying it's the city, not mass transit. Jacksonville is not geared for mass transit. It's the city, not education. Jacksonville's kids are not geared to make it through college so why bother.
Point blank, we have a substandard facility plan and simple. Even little ole Lakeland has a convention center with a hotel for crying out loud. We should have had one too but we chose to give the house away to Adams Mark to construct that facility on the other side of downtown. So in this case, poor planning and implementation is the city. All the spin in the world won't change this.
Quote from: stephendare on July 25, 2010, 06:53:39 PM
Maybe we should look at what makes a great Convention and start there?
I think we start with what our existing long time events need along with what a typical convention center needs to be successful. Then evaluate what we have and what we need to do to improve that. Doing that alone will result in a space that is more attractive to additional conventions, trade shows, expos and competitions that currently avoid Jacksonville. Luckily, we've already done enough studies over the years to identify these issues. Now we just need to figure out the best way to fund a practical solution that frees up the Prime Osborn to be converted back into a transportation center.
Quote from: stephendare on July 25, 2010, 07:38:22 PM
Has anyone here ever been to a convention? In a city besides jacksonville?
many times...I have been to at least 10 conferences/conventions in other Florida cities...and around 6 in cities outside FL (San Fran, DC, Philly, and Boston)....plus I've been to car shows at convention centers in Philly, Baltimore, Washington, and Tampa.
I'm also in charge of organizing conferences for my statewide professional organization (usually around 750 people attend).
Based on those experiences, I believe that Jax. can compete w/ other mid-sized cnvention cities....but only if we build a new center closer to the existing urban core.
It really doesn't matter what the event "theme" is, as long as it's located in an environment that drives foot traffic and visibility right past the front doors of local restaurants, bars, cultural, retail establishments and gets butts in the local hotel beds. I'm still waiting for someone to make a case that downtown's retailers would not benefit from an extra hundreds of thousands of potential customers walking past their front doors annually, due to a relocated well integrated convention facility.
Like tufsu1, I been to many conventions, trade shows, sporting events, concerts and expos in several facilities across the country as well for business and pleasure. In my humble opinion, your argument has as many holes in it as Swiss cheese. I believe over the last 12 pages, it has been well proven and documented that our center is too small, poorly located, lacks a hotel and completely isolated. There are countless studies, professionals, event coordinators, and peer city examples out saying one thing verses a personal opinion. It's also been proven that the Prime Osborn is better off as a transportation center which leads us to two options to truly debate and discuss:
1. Relocate the convention center.
2. Get out of the business and run off the rest of the events it hosts in the process.
Btw, here is a link to the Black Expo website: http://blackexposouth.com/events/jacksonville-fl
Quote"It's a big puzzle, and the facility is just one piece of it," said Kathie Canning, deputy general manager of the Orange County Convention Center in Orlando, which completed its own 950,282-square-foot expansion in 2003. "We compete on destination first. What it typically comes down to is, Is it a place attendees want to come to?"
I also agree with this. As mentioned the facility requirements (which we don't meet for most) is just one piece of the puzzle. Destination is another major factor. Right now, due to poor planning and vision, DT Jax is not a valued destination for many. However, you build "destination" through connectivity and synergy. Considering the Prime Osborn is better off as a transportation center, we'll have to address our convention center situation at some point. Imo, when the issue is addressed, it's better to relocate it in a place that helps the effort to build DT Jax into a vibrant destination by taking advantage of our existing investments and businesses instead of completely abandoning the convention industry.
Stephen, nice use of quote boxes. Way to go! ;D
By the way, we might also do well hosting conventions related to:
The military, especially the Navy.
Transportation (railroads, aviation, marine)
Fishing given that we have fresh, brackish, an salt water all here.
Golf with the PGA and Hall of Fame.
Tennis with the ATP.
Medical with Mayo and UF Shands.
Auto as an expansion of the Concours d'elegance weekend.
Mortgage banking which is a major industry here.
Paper and wood products, also big here.
Import/export industry given the port (such as a convention of custom brokers and trade finance).
Ethnic conventions including African American, Middle Eastern, East European, Hispanic, and Asian (or more specifically, Korea, Philippines, China, India, etc.), South American (especially Brazil), Caribbean.
Banking and Finance.
Insurance.
Communications.
New Age industries such as internet, solar, biotech, blogging, social networking, etc.
Aforementioned music such as jazz (with UNF's top jazz program and Jax's history and festival), Southern Rock, country, etc.
Ecotourism industry such as kayaking/canoe, beach related, etc.
Environmental issue related (water management and treatment, clean power generation, etc.)
Collectibles and Hobbies (From coins and stamps to model railroading and railroad memorabilia [for Ock] to photography, scrap booking, etc., etc.)
[/b]
Quote from: stephendare on July 25, 2010, 09:44:26 PM
Lake you are 100 percent wrong on the facility. We fit the size requirements for most conventions, conferences and congresses.
Here's some more proof the validate my position. What do you have to show that our facility is just fine and should not be relocated (don't forget about the transportation center side of things)?
Jacksonville Business Journal - April 20, 2007
by Rachel Witkowski Staff Writer
JACKSONVILLE -- The Prime F. Osborn III Convention Center's size and distance from a hotel has cost the city's economy more than $48 million this year.
Business groups that had planned to hold conventions at the center in 2007 but decided to go to another market equated to a loss of $48.4 million based on the room-nights they would have generated for the city, according to the Jacksonville & the Beaches Convention and Visitors Bureau. The city has lost nearly $140 million from groups that have left from 2006 to 2008.
The 78,500 square feet of exhibit space at the Prime Osborn is limiting its ability to attract state and national conventions while local events' potential to make money is also being constrained by the building's size.http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html
The Prime Osborn has become more of a civic center because of its size limitations and therefore cannot attract larger regional and national conventions.
The new draft report, compiled by representatives from the transportation, tourism and hotel industries, recommends that a new or expanded convention center can not be built until the city's private and public sectors commit to redeveloping Downtown. This includes the convention center being within three to five blocks of hotels, restaurants and other infrastructure.
That would require a new center or the extension of infrastructure in the La Villa neighborhood that abuts the central business district and includes the Prime Osborn.
The concern with building in La Villa is that the Prime Osborn attracts mostly civic conventions for which attendees commute from nearby and don't need to stay at a hotel. A proposed 400-room hotel built next to the Prime Osborn could not survive in the area unless there was more infrastructure like restaurants, entertainment and transportation for visitors, the infrastructure committee's chairman and Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront General Manager Phil Tufano, said.
The county courthouse and annex area off Bay Street is next to the 966-room Hyatt and includes access to water taxis, which would allow visitors to travel to the Southbank, he said.
Bay Street is going to get additional restaurants and entertainment regardless of whether there is a nearby convention center, said John Reyes, president and CEO of the Jacksonville & the Beaches Convention and Visitors Bureau.
The draft report suggests that a new or expanded convention center should not be constructed until some, if not all, necessary infrastructure is planned or under way. http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/30/story1.html
The subcommittee requested an additional 121,500 square feet of exhibit space if the Prime Osborn were to expand. It now has 78,000 square feet.
The extra space would allow the city to increase its ability to market to convention business from less than 10 percent to 85 percent. But there is still a concern about limited transportation in La Villa.http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/30/story1.html
QuoteWhat lacks is management and a culture for the business of conventions.
Until those are in place, then there will never be a convention industry in jacksonville.
There's already an industry. Before debating on how to expand it, it makes more sense to figure out how to better benefit from what we already have.
QuoteThe only thing that we are too small for really is the large culture/lifestyle/interest shows, and we do not have any plan in place to grow those in the way they need to be grown.
So your belief is that we should just focus on the 10% of events we sized for instead of the 85%?
The subcommittee requested an additional 121,500 square feet of exhibit space if the Prime Osborn were to expand. It now has 78,000 square feet.
The extra space would allow the city to increase its ability to market to convention business from less than 10 percent to 85 percent. But there is still a concern about limited transportation in La Villa.http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/30/story1.html
QuoteThis leaves the smaller associations, professional leagues and business conventions, and our current management of these things a company which basically treats the entire thing as a room for rent in a very busy international hotel.. You can have the room if you specifically ask for it. But you have to know where it is, and you have to want to stay there first.
??? Or I can know what I need and book my event in a convention city like Grand Rapids, Mobile, Biloxi or Huntsville instead of Jacksonville because they have better facilities and desired amenities.
QuoteI must admit that the research into the actual industry has made me understand our own failure a bit more. I certainly do not feel it is a pipe dream anymore, but I do think a few homegrown inner circle connections either need to be jettisoned, or we need to radically revise how we approach this industry.
We're on two different planets. You're trying to recreate the convention industry wheel and all I'm advocating is getting better utilization out of both our convention and transportation investments by placing extra value on the importance of connectivity.
Quote from: stephendare on July 25, 2010, 09:59:12 PM
huh?
What argument do you think Ive made?
That Jacksonville's Convention business fails mostly because of a lack of dedicated management or creative development? Well good luck finding swiss holes in that one~ ;)
No. This is the argument you've made.
1. A successful convention center does not need to be adjacent to complementing uses (restuarants, etc.)
2. A successful convention center in Jax does not need to be adjacent to a hotel.
3. Relocating the center won't get us better utilization out of our existing events.
The rest of the stuff is just dancing around these issues.
QuoteIts a lot more convincing than any argument involving a hundred million dollar new construction project based on events whose size we cant handle at present and blind trust in the SMG group's dismal track record with the issue.
You're the only one talking about SMG. Get rid of them for all I care, that's not my argument. I'm evidently doing a poor job at explaining the importance of connectivity on this issue to better take advantage of what we already have. As for the investment, I've already stated that a public/private partnership is the way to go. That should cut our investment well below $100 million.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 25, 2010, 03:19:02 PM
We both know that there is a difference in something being attached (hotel) and across the street (entertainment/restaurants, etc.) verses those uses being scattered on multiple blocks like someone kicked an ant hill. One option gives you a "district" just like Five Points or 8th & Main a few years back. Another gives you what downtown Jacksonville is today, which is a colossal failure.
When you're "attached" you don't need to take mass transit. You can enter and leave without ever walking in the elements. The skyway doesn't even run on the weekends, so that's no good when it comes to a convention facility needing an "attached" adjacent hotel.
There are other factors at work at the "PO" that haven't even been touched, and some of these will effect the transportation facility as well.
The City has created a horrible desert (My apologies to my place in 29 Palms California)... There not only is a complete lack of hospitality facilities near the place, the surrounding blocks look like an over sized sand filled kitty litter box. Go to any strange large city and tell me you want to walk through 4-5 blocks of absolute desolation, hell Hiroshima had more to offer in 1946.
You also handicap the PO by placing it next to railroad tracks and yards, we ALL know the sort of people that hang out around trains (oop's that would be me!). In Los Angeles my favorite place is under the freeway overpasses. NOT! The hobo jungles are everywhere around the PO and you don't have to be from Jacksonville to figure that out pretty quickly.
Next? Does this city with it's massive "Garden Club" have any clue on how to plant and maintain landscape? I've been around here just shy of 60 years and really don't recall EVER seeing the likes of Nocatee, WGV, St. Augustine, Coral Springs, Lake Buena Vista... etc. Most of our highway's and a great deal of our sidewalks (if there are any) resemble the back lot where Sanford and Son was filmed.
I have been told the Courthouse and Annex is full of asbestos anyway, if that's true it can't be remodeled and needs to be carefully torn down. The site itself lends itself to a streetcar/LRT line running right through the new Convention Center, al la Dallas.
Our day's of attracting CSX's and Fidelity's to our door are over if we don't have the infrastructure for them to host major events in their new home town. Screw the cheerleaders! (UH OH!) A revitalized riverfront and Riverwalk dotted with attractions would turn such a center into an industrial showplace of choice.
Turn JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL back to it's glory day's.
OCKLAWAHA
Could someone pass the popcorn?
Quote from: stephendare on July 25, 2010, 10:07:00 PM
Why arent there small micro conventions being attracted from this basic group of industries some of which jacksonville provides natural advantages with?
I don't have a problem with this line of thinking. However, this is a separate topic from the facility issue.
QuoteI agree with Lake mostly on the issue. I know we both think that more entertainment, dining and accomodations have got to be relocated downtown.
We both definitely agree that the Prime Osborn needs to be converted to a transit use.
But I do not agree that the best use of our riverfront property is a space guaranteed to be empty most of the time. Unless it overlays a property which guarantees organic daily vibrancy. I also think that the best place for it is the Municipal Stadium parking lot.
I think that building on the riverfront designs in a cause for neglect and removes vibrancy in the same way that the stadiums do to the east side.
The stadium parking lot is the worse location. You might as well just stick a larger box on the back of the Prime Osborn since its already there. Nevertheless, both options would be a disaster since they would undermine other public projects and previous investments.
I feel like we're circling the wagons. I've already stated how to design a center that gets around the clock use. Here are some renderings of that concept that Jason did a few years ago.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ConventionCenter-1.jpg)
Public/Private Partnership: Private use on the waterfront and Bay Street with the multi-story convention box in the middle of the site. The private investment could be used to help offset the public investment's overall cost of building the convention center.(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ConventionCenter-2.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ConventionCenter-3.jpg)
"But I do not agree that the best use of our riverfront property is a space guaranteed to be empty most of the time. Unless it overlays a property which guarantees organic daily vibrancy."
Stephen, so what kind of vibrancy will be at the Courthouse area once the new Courthose is built and moved into?
All I got are Whoppers
Quote from: stephendare on July 25, 2010, 10:15:12 PM
lol. Are you serious?
You are referring to a report from the Sub Committee To Come Up With Reasons Why We Need A Bigger Convention Center to prove that we need a bigger convention center?
We also had a committee to come up with reasons why the zoo should be moved downtown. Guess what its conclusions were? Strangely, it turned out that downtown is the perfect place to locate a major zoological park. That is, for everyone but the animals, the facility and the customers.
Its like asking TUFSU whether or not we need some retarded infrastructure project way out in the boonies. Auto Opinion Sez: YES, Definitely!
Notice that they mention conventions left for other cities, but they did not mention why? And then simply announced their own foregone conclusions?
We are running into the same blistering reasoning at the other public buildings. Why isnt the Florida Theatre used? What about the Times Union Performing Art Center? Why isnt anything every happening over at the Ritz Theatre?
Lake, its totally the management, not the size.
How about this from the spokesman of an event that left the Prime Osborn?
QuoteFire-Rescue EAST has experienced phenomenal growth since 1994, when the convention had 34 exhibits and 600 attendees. Needing more space, organizers booked other facilities, but watched the Ocean Center expansion closely for the opportunity to return to the area. Today, the event has 250 exhibitors and 8,000 attendees. The Daytona Beach Area Convention and Visitors Bureau estimates the event will fill more than 3,495 room nights and generate an economic impact of more than $2 million.
“We are excited about the opportunity to bring Fire-Rescue EAST to the Ocean Center,†said Jim Wile, executive director of the FFCA. “The Ocean Center expansion provides us with considerably more space than our previous location. Moving our conference and expo here will allow us to provide exhibit space to many vendors we have turned away in the past, and provide more educational opportunities since we will have additional meeting space. Everything is ready to go, now all we need is some of that endless Florida sunshine and we’ll be all set.â€
www.oceancenter.com/releases09/0116b09.htm
Here is the CVB's quote about them getting the hell out of the Prime Osborn.
QuoteThe CVB, which helps bring larger regional, state and national conventions that generate room-nights, most recently lost two of its larger clients for 2009. After 10 years of holding annual events at the Prime Osborn, the state's Fire-Rescue Convention & Exposition and The State Cheer & Dance Championships of Florida are moving to Daytona Beach, taking $3 million in economic impact.
The Florida Fire Chiefs' Association said it needed 100,000 more square feet to clear exhibits from the lobby areas, according to information provided by the CVB. It uses 117,300 square feet at the Prime Osborn.
Gainesville-based American Championships, which operates State Cheer & Dance, said it needed an additional 40,000 square feet to expand the event and have more warm-up space.
The Prime Osborn's size and the cost to transport event attendees to the nearest hotels were the primary reasons for lost business, said Shirley Smith, CVB's vice president of sales.
Both conventions will host their events at Daytona's Ocean Center in 2009, the same year it will open as an expanded convention center with 452,491 square feet of space, nearly double its existing size. The center is offering incentives and promotions for businesses that bring events to Ocean Center within the first year of its reopening, Smith said.
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html?jst=pn_pn_lk
You know I love you like a brother but I'm going to have to take the CVB's, Daytona's and the Fire-Rescue's word on this one.
Btw, considering it started downtown, a historic zoo (sort of like the St. Louis Zoo) would have been a nice attraction for the urban core. It sure beats surface parking lots. ;)
We should have gotten Florida Coastal to locate near the courthouse when we had the opportunity. That would have been a complementing use that would have directly activity in that area after 7pm.
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 25, 2010, 12:06:38 PM
Quote from: stjr on July 24, 2010, 11:59:48 PM
I still believe we need a minimum square to rectangular footprint of 6 to 8 acres to accommodate an exhibit hall of 150,000 to 200,000 square feet plus support services and support vehicle parking and access. The old courthouse site just doesn't cut it.
1 acre = 43,560 square feet...so we would only need 3.5 to 4.5 acres to meet your exhibit hall size...assuming that we build a 2 (or more) story facility w/ meeting rooms, banquest space, and retail on one floor and the exhibit hall on the other.
I believe the best thing to do is build a center on the current courthouse and parking lot blocks....and build the parking garage at the old city hall annex (behind the Hyatt) w/ the ability to construct a building above it.
Based on my Google map measuring, the courthouse/parking block is about 500' x 750' = 375,000 square feet...or 8.5+ acres...and the old city hall annes site is around 380' x 325' = 123,500 square feet...or just under 3 acres.
Tufsu, as Lake noted, Lake and I have already gone around about the (in)adequacy of the courthouse site size and shape so I don't want to repeat all that here. Let's just say I was unconvinced that the courthouse site would work for the long haul and/or if we are going to really do this right. Don't get me wrong, I love the site, I just don't think it has the physical capacity to support the building we need. And, IMHO, it has no substantive capacity to support parking of a large number of vehicles after accounting for a proper CC structure.
I will note, again, that the footprint begins with the size of the exhibit hall, which I believe should be minimally about 200,000 sf. Add the support spaces for the lobby, ticket/credential desks/windows, concession/souvenir stands, an onsite photo copy/internet/printing facility, restrooms, kitchen, storage, staging, utilities, docks, at least some meeting rooms on the same floor, media spaces, offices for the CC and event floor managers, etc. and you have a pretty good size foot print, probably at least 50% or more over the size of the exhibition hall. Now, add outside space for access, security perimeters, event vehicle parking, truck unloading, possible outdoor exhibits, an entry plaza, landscaping, outdoor function space, etc. and you have a very large footprint, easily approaching 8 acres plus.
I haven't even factored in a parking garage or future expansion space (so we don't have to start all over again in 10 to 20 years if Jax and/or the CC business grows substantially). [We need to build for success, not failure, or we are doomed to fulfill our own prophecy.]
I am thinking 6 acres (261,360 sf) to 8 acres (348,480 sf) is very reasonable, and, maybe still too conservative.
By the way, in the stadium/arena district, parking and access is far less of an issue (Can you see 10,000 to 15,000 convention goers driving and/or mixing in with downtown workers and residents, if we rebuild that base sufficiently? I think given our type of city and location, conventions with large "drive-in" components will be a significant factor for the foreseeable future and handling this will be part of our "appeal"). With a street car line, it will be well connected to Downtown.
And, if we infill with development of the shipyards, a stadium based CC will be within reasonable walking distance of the East Bay "entertainment district". Jags fans walk that leg by the thousands for every game already. I reassert, also, that a stadium site, to be successful, will need contemporaneous construction of an adjacent hotel and eating establishments. These should be feasible as they will also serve the other venues, and, with the streetcar, Bay Steeet walkways, and riverwalk connections, will be able to bid on downtown visitor business as well.
^A slightly larger facility helps you accommodate and compete for larger events like this. Like a longer rail line has the ability to spur more TOD and attract higher ridership than a short one that doesn't go anywhere. Right now we have a facility that competes against the likes of Mobile, Lakeland and Huntsville, AL. Maybe we're fine with this and if so, then okay, Jax is what it is. However, if you're going to invest in a relocated center you might as well build it in a manner to accommodate the growth of existing events.
Quote from: stjr on July 25, 2010, 10:40:40 PM
I will note, again, that the footprint begins with the size of the exhibit hall, which I believe should be minimally about 200,000 sf. Add the support spaces for the lobby, ticket/credential desks/windows, concession/souvenir stands, an onsite photo copy/internet/printing facility, restrooms, kitchen, storage, staging, utilities, docks, at least some meeting rooms on the same floor, media spaces, offices for the CC and event floor managers, etc. and you have a pretty good size foot print, probably at least 50% or more over the size of the exhibition hall. Now, add outside space for access, security perimeters, event vehicle parking, truck unloading, possible outdoor exhibits, an entry plaza, landscaping, outdoor function space, etc. and you have a very large footprint, easily approaching 8 acres plus.
Only if one thinks horizontal.
QuoteI haven't even factored in a parking garage or future expansion space (so we don't have to start all over again in 10 to 20 years if Jax and/or the CC business grows substantially). [We need to build for success, not failure, or we are doomed to fulfill our own prophecy.]
Any idea of the growth timeline. From the way things are going, we won't even have a 200,000 square exhibition hall in 10 years. Also, you can follow Orlando's path of building a completely separate facility across the street with the JSO/jail site, assuming they're relocated at some point in the distant future.
QuoteBy the way, in the stadium/arena district, parking and access is far less of an issue (Can you see 10,000 to 15,000 convention goers driving and/or mixing in with downtown workers and residents, if we rebuild that base sufficiently?
Too many people on downtown's streets would be a great problem to have. We would then be like Toronto.
QuoteAnd, if we infill with development of the shipyards, a stadium based CC will be within reasonable walking distance of the East Bay "entertainment district". Jags fans walk that leg by the thousands for every game already. I reassert, also, that a stadium site, to be successful, will need contemporaneous construction of an adjacent hotel and eating establishments. These should be feasible as they will also serve the other venues, and, with the streetcar, Bay Steeet walkways, and riverwalk connections, will be able to bid on downtown visitor business as well.
Realistically, this description is like a 50 year plan. For example, there has been talk of infilling the Shipyards site for nearly 20 years now. Not to mention, it would cost billions to fund all of these ideas assuming downtown's shrinking market grew to support them over that time period.
Quote from: stephendare on July 25, 2010, 10:53:30 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 25, 2010, 10:49:55 PM
^A slightly larger facility helps you accommodate and compete for larger events like this. Like a longer rail line has the ability to spur more TOD and attract higher ridership than a short one that doesn't go anywhere. Right now we have a facility that competes against the likes of Mobile, Lakeland and Huntsville, AL. Maybe we're fine with this and if so, then okay, Jax is what it is. However, if you're going to invest in a relocated center you might as well build it in a manner to accommodate the growth of existing events.
I agree completely with this assessment, but without a waterchange in how we approach this industry, if we cant fill a small one, we are not going to fill a bigger one.
Now we're back to where we started. Management issues aside, it would be easier to fill a small one if it had complementing uses like a convention center hotel attached, restaurants and retail within immediate walking distance. When you have similar sized and smaller facilities in other cities that offer these basic convention amenities, even Pat Riley would have a hard time convincing the best conventions in the industry to jump ship and relocate to Jacksonville.
Watch these video's and THINK going from the end of Independence Drive toward Liberty Street at the new riverfront convention center. One wonders if we have that much creativity but wouldn't this be a coup??
http://www.youtube.com/v/gW7icqsz6eQ&hl=en_US&fs=1?color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"
http://www.youtube.com/v/8Gdqlj4mgfI&hl=en_US&fs=1?color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"
http://www.youtube.com/v/beUOZ9lGUPo&hl=en_US&fs=1?color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"
Dallas does it, why not Jacksonville?
OCKLAWAHA
I must say I love what DART has been able to accomplish in a relatively short time period. I used that same DART line to access a convention I attended in Dallas a couple of years ago. Hopefully, we can get around to implementing other's successful strategies on our own landscape.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/50/148507451_fa5136fb93.jpg)
(http://www.urbanrail.net/am/dall/convention-center1.jpg)
DALLAS (Above) SAN DIEGO (below)
(http://img.search.com/thumb/0/0a/San_Diego_Green_Line_SDSU.jpg/350px-San_Diego_Green_Line_SDSU.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3148/2557926732_0d0599ee20.jpg)
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: thelakelander on July 25, 2010, 11:01:03 PM
Quote from: stjr on July 25, 2010, 10:40:40 PM
I will note, again, that the footprint begins with the size of the exhibit hall, which I believe should be minimally about 200,000 sf. Add the support spaces for the lobby, ticket/credential desks/windows, concession/souvenir stands, an onsite photo copy/internet/printing facility, restrooms, kitchen, storage, staging, utilities, docks, at least some meeting rooms on the same floor, media spaces, offices for the CC and event floor managers, etc. and you have a pretty good size foot print, probably at least 50% or more over the size of the exhibition hall. Now, add outside space for access, security perimeters, event vehicle parking, truck unloading, possible outdoor exhibits, an entry plaza, landscaping, outdoor function space, etc. and you have a very large footprint, easily approaching 8 acres plus.
Only if one thinks horizontal.
Lake, I made it clear I think all this goes on the ground floor. You can put more meeting rooms/function spaces on an upper floor all you like. I am essentially putting just the exhibit all and its support spaces on the ground floor. I sure would like to see you put the truck dock on the third floor of a CC! :DQuoteQuoteI haven't even factored in a parking garage or future expansion space (so we don't have to start all over again in 10 to 20 years if Jax and/or the CC business grows substantially). [We need to build for success, not failure, or we are doomed to fulfill our own prophecy.]
Any idea of the growth timeline. From the way things are going, we won't even have a 200,000 square exhibition hall in 10 years. Also, you can follow Orlando's path of building a completely separate facility across the street with the JSO/jail site, assuming they're relocated at some point in the distant future.
Lake, I can't predict the future but, given Jax's historic growth track, it wouldn't be unreasonable to demand something more in 10 to 20 years. Also, note the article posted by Stephen that said it was common to look at expansions after 10 years. As to Orlando, that's apples and [Orlando] oranges ;) . Orlando already had a 1 million square foot facility. They didn't need a bigger exhibit hall, just another one, for dual conventions or overflows. We are a long way from having that "problem".QuoteQuoteBy the way, in the stadium/arena district, parking and access is far less of an issue (Can you see 10,000 to 15,000 convention goers driving and/or mixing in with downtown workers and residents, if we rebuild that base sufficiently?
Too many people on downtown's streets would be a great problem to have. We would then be like Toronto.
Generally, I wasn't referring to pedestrians, but thousands of drivers. Just look what it takes to navigate downtown when a show of only 3,000 ends at TUPAC or 2,000 at the Florida Theater. Also, if the CC is on the riverfront, conventioneers don't have a 360 degree exit strategy, but more like 180 degrees. That intensifies the traffic when conventions break. I am thinking a tidal wave of people flooding downtown on a weekday lunch or dinner hour. How many downtown workers will be happy to have their lunch hours obliterated by 2 hour waits and sidewalks so crowded they can't find a spot to stand? Or downtown residents at dinner? Yes, a good problem, but be careful what you wish for. There will be trade-offs.QuoteQuoteAnd, if we infill with development of the shipyards, a stadium based CC will be within reasonable walking distance of the East Bay "entertainment district". Jags fans walk that leg by the thousands for every game already. I reassert, also, that a stadium site, to be successful, will need contemporaneous construction of an adjacent hotel and eating establishments. These should be feasible as they will also serve the other venues, and, with the streetcar, Bay Steeet walkways, and riverwalk connections, will be able to bid on downtown visitor business as well.
Realistically, this description is like a 50 year plan. For example, there has been talk of infilling the Shipyards site for nearly 20 years now. Not to mention, it would cost billions to fund all of these ideas assuming downtown's shrinking market grew to support them over that time period.
I never said we needed the Shipyards. That's just possible future gravy. A successful convention center. though, might accelerate interest in developing the Shipyards. Also, agreement on the CC at the stadium with a hotel, etc. would likely assure the City making the Bay Street streetcar happen tomorrow vs. whenever. Excluding the shipyard, you are talking about $100 million +/- for the CC and $$ for the streetcar. But, you and Ock say that's coming anyway so that's not extra $$ at the margin. The hotel should be private $$. A garage, if needed at the stadium site, would be necessary as well at the courthouse site so that's not an incremental cost vs. your option. So, to sum up, we don't need 50 years and we don't need billions.
does'nt sound like it... but for some reason the fixation seems to be on the site of the current Courthouse.
QuoteLake, I made it clear I think all this goes on the ground floor. You can put more meeting rooms/function spaces an upper floor all you like. I am essentially putting just the exhibit all and its support spaces on the ground floor. I sure would like to see you put the truck dock on the third floor of a CC!
I think an exhibition hall works best on a second floor so you'll need a ramp of course. Assuming current courthouse parcel is the selected site, a ramp could be developed along the sloping Liberty Street. Btw, you should check out the convention center Ock just posted images of. If I remember correctly, parking and LRT happen to be on the first floor while the exhibition hall is on the second. Also the same goes for Mobile and Huntsville, with the exhibition hall on the second levels. If these cities can do it, so can Jacksonville.
Mobile
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/837077796_LGoSU-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/837070029_PcLyR-M.jpg)
Huntsville
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/562678335_BCEjA-M.jpg)
QuoteLake, I can't predict the future but, given Jax's historic growth track, it wouldn't be unreasonable to demand something more in 10 to 20 years. Also, note the article posted by Stephen that said it was common to look at expansions after 10 years. As to Orlando, that's apples and [Orlando] oranges . Orlando already had a 1 million square foot facility. They didn't need a bigger exhibit hall, just another one, for dual conventions or overflows. We are a long way from having that "problem".
A larger space here would also be used for dual conventions. Nevertheless, the current courthouse site can be set up to have as much as somewhere between 300-400k square feet of exhibition space if desired. That should serve us well into the future. By the time we grow into that kind of space the building could be nearing the end of its lifetime or the county jail parcel could be available, making the Orlando expansion solution a possibility.
QuoteGenerally, I wasn't referring to pedestrians, but thousands of drivers. Just look what it takes to navigate downtown when a show of only 3,000 ends at TUPAC or 2,000 at the Florida Theater. Also, if the CC is on the riverfront, conventioneers don't have a 360 degree exit strategy, but more like 180 degrees. That intensifies the traffic when conventions break. I am thinking a tidal wave of people flooding downtown on a weekday lunch or dinner hour. How many downtown workers will be happy to have their lunch hours obliterated by 2 hour waits and sidewalks so crowded they can't find a spot to stand? Or downtown residents at dinner? Yes, a good problem, but be careful what you wish for. There will be trade-offs.
If our restaurants get to the point of two hour waits at lunch, I can promise you a fleet of additional businesses will open up shop to serve the masses and true vibrancy will finally be upon us. If major cities can deal with crowded streets and sidewalks, I can only assume that Jacksonville should be able to as well. We did 60 years ago.
QuoteI never said we needed the Shipyards. That's just possible future gravy. A successful convention center. though, might accelerate interest in developing the Shipyards. Also, agreement on the CC at the stadium with a hotel, etc. would likely assure the City making the Bay Street streetcar happen tomorrow vs. whenever.
I don't see a convention center coming tomorrow. While we will possibly see the initial streetcar corridor come online within this decade, it won't be going to the stadium. It will be connecting Riverside with Downtown. Realistically, you're still looking past 2020 for fixed transit to access the Sports District unless this city truly changes its priorities.
QuoteExcluding the shipyard, you are talking about $100 million +/- for the CC and $$ for the streetcar. But, you and Ock say that's coming anyway so that's not extra $$ at the margin. The hotel should be private $$. A garage, if needed at the stadium site, would be necessary as well at the courthouse site so that's not an incremental cost vs. your option. So, to sum up, we don't need 50 years and we don't need billions.
You're going to have to subsidize complementing development like a hotel because our market can't support such a facility and won't be able to anytime soon. So between a convention center and hotel you could be looking at $100 - $200 million total. You still need some retail and restaurant so lets add another $50 million or so for subsidizing this complementing development. With all of that you're still a mile away from the heart of the Northbank. Infilling that mile will certainly run you into the billions and take decades to accomplish. Why bother? Just take the $100 million, use the current courthouse site, make some money back through public/private partnerships and call it day.
Quote from: Timkin on July 25, 2010, 11:51:41 PM
does'nt sound like it... but for some reason the fixation seems to be on the site of the current Courthouse.
Because it makes sense on so many levels.
1. The city already owns the land.
2. The current use will be leaving the site.
3. The city has invested millions in making Bay Street an entertainment district (complementing use).
4. The city spent millions in subsidizing a convention center sized hotel in the Hyatt (complementing use).
5. The Hyatt (a public investment) is next door to the site so you can combine facilities.
6. Bay Street entertainment district is next door to the site.
7. The Jacksonville Landing is two blocks away.
8. Its one of the few sites where you only have to concentrate on the facility because the complementing uses are already in place.
Lake, I respect your opinions but I respectfully see this differently for the most part. As stated, I think the Courthouse site has issues just like you think the Stadium site does. I am sure no site is perfect.
What would be best is for both sites to be well studied, rated and/or compared on various critical factors, and then evaluated and recommended accordingly. I am concerned that Jax will once again make a knee jerk decision, be lazy, and just go with what seems to be the easiest and/or cheapest way out. That kind of non-creative, non-think-out-of-the-box thinking is what keeps this town grounded. Convince me that a complete and open-minded non-partisan analysis will be done of both sites and I will have more confidence in the winner, whichever site that will be.
I agree and thought that this was already done a few years back. I'll have to go back and research the old Metjax archives but I thought they narrowed the two best sites to the current county courthouse and Prime Osborn locations. Unfortunately, the committee decided to leave it up to the council to pick the final location instead of sticking their necks out on the line.
Is that wise? to leave it up to Council?
September 14, 2007
QuoteEight potential sites for an expanded or new convention center were narrowed to the Prime Osborn Convention Center and the Hyatt Regency Hotel area by a subcommittee of Jacksonville's convention center task force.
The site selection committee decided on the two spots after a consultant's final feasibility study presentation at a meeting facilitated by Jacksonville Community Council Inc.
Both sites will be studied before presentation to the full task force on Sept. 27. The group's final recommendation to the city is in October.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/091407/bus_199649407.shtml
Quote from: thelakelander on July 26, 2010, 12:10:47 AM
Quote from: Timkin on July 25, 2010, 11:51:41 PM
does'nt sound like it... but for some reason the fixation seems to be on the site of the current Courthouse.
Because it makes sense on so many levels.
1. The city already owns the land. It also already owns the land at the Stadium.
2. The current use will be leaving the site. No problem at the stadium. It's just a parking lot.
3. The city has invested millions in making Bay Street an entertainment district (complementing use). Great. It's within walking and easy transit range of the stadium too. And, a CC at the stadium might spread the entertainment district eastward further while expanding our tax base to a new, currently under utilized area.
4. The city spent millions in subsidizing a convention center sized hotel in the Hyatt (complementing use). With a larger CC, the Hyatt and Omni won't alone be enough to service a larger convention. We will probably need another hotel Downtown anyway. Might as well build it at the stadium district where it can also feed off of the stadium, arena, baseball grounds, fairgrounds, and Metro Park/riverwalk.
5. The Hyatt (a public investment) is next door to the site so you can combine facilities. The arena, stadium, fairgrounds, Metro Park, baseball grounds provide a lot more options to "combine" facilities.
6. Bay Street entertainment district is next door to the site. Again, just a short walk or transit ride from the Stadium district. Not necessary to be next door. By the way, it seems that the "Bay Street entertainment district" ain't all that much. Likely, a spit in the bucket for a large convention. So, conventioneers will be humping it down the road anyway. Building around this is akin to the tail wagging the dog.
7. The Jacksonville Landing is two blocks away. Fair enough. But, again, not enough to dictate the CC's location by itself. Also, not far from the stadium either. Witness the Florida-Georgia and Gator Bowl festivities that load up the landing as did the Super Bowl.
8. Its one of the few sites where you only have to concentrate on the facility because the complementing uses are already in place. Yes and no. Far more hotels and entertainment would be needed versus existing if successful. Imagine what a CC addition would do to extending downtown along the riverfront to the stadium district and making the stadium district an additional hub for downtown.
Lastly, Lake, has anyone considered what a stadium district hotel and entertainment district would do to ALSO increase bookings for the arena, fairgrounds, stadium, ball park, and Metro park. That impact could multiply several times the impact alone of the CC.
Kinda thought not. I mean they might come up with a worse Idea than mine... Put it in Arlington or something stupid like that. :)
Quote from: Lunican on July 26, 2010, 12:26:23 AM
September 14, 2007
Eight potential sites for an expanded or new convention center were narrowed to the Prime Osborn Convention Center and the Hyatt Regency Hotel area by a subcommittee of Jacksonville's convention center task force.
The site selection committee decided on the two spots after a consultant's final feasibility study presentation at a meeting facilitated by Jacksonville Community Council Inc.
Lunican, thanks. But, this was 2 years ago and should be updated whenever we actually get serious about the CC being funded. Also, there is no mention here of the other sites considered or the analysis that led to their conclusion. Can you get us more?
The study also seems a little suspect given that the PO was one of two finalists. :D The whole reason this discussion is on the table is due to agreement that that site is woefully inadequate. Who was on this subcommittee and how "professional" and "exhaustive" was their process? Sounds like the outcome was based more on political expediency more than merit.
Here is the original list:
- City Hall Annex/Duval County Courthouse, East Bay and Newnan streets
- Duval County School Board/Wyndham Jacksonville Riverwalk hotel, Prudential Drive
- Jacksonville Fairgrounds, 510 Fairgrounds Place
- The Jacksonville Landing, 1 Independent Drive
- Jacksonville Municipal Stadium Parking Lot J, Gator Bowl Boulevard
- JEA Southside Generating Station, Broadcast Place
- Prime Osborn Convention Center, 1000 Water St.
- Shipyards, East Bay Street
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/071807/bus_185219673.shtml
My comments in red, except for the last, which is in black.Quote from: stjr on July 26, 2010, 12:32:34 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 26, 2010, 12:10:47 AM
Quote from: Timkin on July 25, 2010, 11:51:41 PM
does'nt sound like it... but for some reason the fixation seems to be on the site of the current Courthouse.
Because it makes sense on so many levels.
1. The city already owns the land. It also already owns the land at the Stadium.
The Fairgrounds owns a chunk of it too. Meaning to sqaure it off you might have to buy them out.
2. The current use will be leaving the site. No problem at the stadium. It's just a parking lot.That the city doesn't completely own
3. The city has invested millions in making Bay Street an entertainment district (complementing use). Great. It's within walking and easy transit range of the stadium too. And, a CC at the stadium might spread the entertainment district eastward further while expanding our tax base to a new, currently under utilized area.Spreading a mile east is a little excessive and unrealistic. You could pay to subsidize complementing uses but they'll end up competing against your current investment, killing the potential of both.
4. The city spent millions in subsidizing a convention center sized hotel in the Hyatt (complementing use). With a larger CC, the Hyatt and Omni won't alone be enough to service a larger convention. We will probably need another hotel Downtown anyway. Might as well build it at the stadium district where it can also feed off of the stadium, arena, baseball grounds, fairgrounds, and Metro Park/riverwalk.The Hyatt has 966 rooms so it should be fine. If another hotel is needed, it could be one of the private uses to purchase air rights on top of the new convention center, similar to what was done in Seattle.
5. The Hyatt (a public investment) is next door to the site so you can combine facilities. The arena, stadium, fairgrounds, Metro Park, baseball grounds provide a lot more options to "combine" facilities.An attached hotel is more important to the success of a convention center than a football field. Probably because convention delegates won't be able to sleep in Metro Park, the fairgrounds, arena or parking lots.
6. Bay Street entertainment district is next door to the site. Again, just a short walk or transit ride from the Stadium district. Not necessary to be next door. By the way, it seems that the "Bay Street entertainment district" ain't all that much. Likely, a spit in the bucket for a large convention. So, conventioneers will be humping it down the road anyway. Building around this is akin to the tail wagging the dog.Tell it to Nashville, Toronto or Louisville. Density is a great thing. Btw, there is a huge difference in walking a mile in the sun past a factory and a jail verses across the street or next door.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/563005154_KEGSo-M.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1301-p1010469.JPG)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/719188905_SNUfn-M.jpg)
7. The Jacksonville Landing is two blocks away. Fair enough. But, again, not enough to dictate the CC's location by itself. Also, not far from the stadium either. Witness the Florida-Georgia and Gator Bowl festivities that load up the landing as did the Super Bowl. That type of business would certainly result in better retail, restaurants and expansion for the center. Isn't that a good thing?
8. Its one of the few sites where you only have to concentrate on the facility because the complementing uses are already in place. Yes and no. Far more hotels and entertainment would be needed versus existing if successful. Imagine what a CC addition would do to extending downtown along the riverfront to the stadium district and making the stadium district an additional hub for downtown.It would do the same thing it did in expanding downtown to LaVilla or what the stadium did for expanding downtown. Absolutely nothing. Let's go ahead and get the walkable heart right before worrying about infilling the Sports District.
Lastly, Lake, has anyone considered what a stadium district hotel and entertainment district would do to ALSO increase bookings for the arena, fairgrounds, stadium, ball park, and Metro park. That impact could multiply several times the impact alone of the CC.Doubt it, however it's worth looking at.
Well at least my suggestion of replacing DCSB wasnt all that far off , according to the list.
But hey.. it probably will end up on the Courthouse site ...if it happens :) Fine w me.. makes no matter either way.
But for that matter,they could tear the Landing down and put it there. ... I could care less about the landing anyway.
Thanks again, Lunican. Well, they were smelling the coffee. I didn't see this report, but we both had parking lot J on our short list. I also previously suggested the alternate site of the Shipyards.
Now, we just need to see how professional the analysis was and what the explanation is to support their conclusion. Is the report online? If not, maybe MJ could do an article on it and put it on our "dartboard" for discussion.
Quote from: Timkin on July 26, 2010, 12:56:54 AM
But for that matter,they could tear the Landing down and put it there. ... I could care less about the landing anyway.
If money is not an object and existing infrastructure is worth ignoring, we should go head and dust off some of Jack Diamond's old ideas like the Downtown Realm and the original skyway plans. However, its better to push for affordable solutions that help free up cash for other projects like historic preservation. ;)
Quote from: stjr on July 26, 2010, 12:57:45 AM
Thanks again, Lunican. Well, they were smelling the coffee. I didn't see this report, but we both had parking lot J on our short list. I also previously suggested the alternate site of the Shipyards.
Now, we just need to see how professional the analysis was and what the explanation is to support their conclusion. Is the report online? If not, maybe MJ could do an article on it and put it on our "dartboard" for discussion.
I'll see what I can dig up from that time after I get some sleep. We had some pretty live debates when all of this was going down.
Lake, I won't bother to quote-quote-quote ourselves again ;) so just add the comments below:
I suggested Parking Lot J fronting Bay Street/Gator Bowl Blvd. It's news to me that that has anything to do with the Fairgrounds. Are you misunderstanding my site choice?
And, when you said "combine facilities" with the Hyatt, I took it you meant using their meeting rooms and ball room. Not bedrooms! :D Give me a little credit here.
OK, one quote because we almost agree! QuoteLastly, Lake, has anyone considered what a stadium district hotel and entertainment district would do to ALSO increase bookings for the arena, fairgrounds, stadium, ball park, and Metro park. That impact could multiply several times the impact alone of the CC. Doubt it, however it's worth looking at.
For some reason, I was thinking about another location. Looking at an aerial, Parking Lot J isn't much larger than the courthouse site. I assume you would stick a hotel on Parking Lot M? Anyway, speaking of recreational space, Parking Lot J would be an ideal of extension of Metropolitan Park. Seriously, you could probably replace all the asphalt lots around the stadium with grass and have them being used for recreational purposes when major events aren't beind held, freeing up the Shipyards and JEA properties for a mix of uses.
Btw, on that last quote, we actually agreed. My "doubt it" was in response the question of "has anyone considered....."
Lake, the more I think about it, the more I think a creative and competent developer (that may, unfortunately, likely excludes the City) might be able to rally private hotel and entertainment investors around the stadium district if the city committed the CC and the streetcar investments. If this was proved along with the notion that bookings would rise for the other venues with such private/public investment, I would find it hard to believe our City fathers would not seriously reconsider their current desire for the courthouse site.
The City should do what they just did with Hillwood at Cecil Field and task a creative and proven developer to see if this is a viable option. That step would go a long way toward satisfying my own ability to validate one site over the other.
I think you're really underestimating the fact that convention centers aren't profit makers, the importance of building pedestrian synergy in the heart of the downtown core and the ability of our market to support another +500 room hotel in downtown. The Hillwood thing is a major subsidy but at least we're not already subsidizing a similar endeavor to compete against it. In the end, subsidizing the things we already subsidize to compete against our other investments a mile down the street would be bad business. We'd literally be repeating many of the same mistakes we originally made with the Prime Osborn.
Here is a link the 2007 convention center study summary but it really doesn't go into the process that eliminated the locations outside of the Prime Osborn and courthouse sites:
http://www.jcci.org/jcciwebsite/documents/07%20Convention%20Center.pdf
The stadium idea makes no sense to me. Having been to a few conventions myself... It is all about the destination. Sure the vendors and such need space and facilities but the attendees want things to do after the day is over. Restaurants, bars, clubs, shopping, sight seeing. There is NOTHING at the stadium area. You may as well keep the sight at the P.O. area.
Small conventions are held at the Hyatt fairly often. Take a seat on the Riverwalk between Hyatt and the Landing during lunchtime... there is a steady parade of customers streaming back and forth to the landing. Same holds true for the evenings.
Putting a convention center near the stadium and "hoping" for infill and walkability is part of what keeps the P.O. from being a decent center.
Location, location, location...
Quote from: stjr on July 25, 2010, 11:44:08 PM
Lake, I made it clear I think all this goes on the ground floor. You can put more meeting rooms/function spaces on an upper floor all you like. I am essentially putting just the exhibit all and its support spaces on the ground floor. I sure would like to see you put the truck dock on the third floor of a CC! :D
well Philly has theirs on the second floor....w/ a ramp
I showed that the courthouse/garage site is 375,000sf or 8+ acres....so even your single floor concept fits
BridgeTroll, I couldn't have said it any better.
My all-time favorite place to put the CC would be the existing Police HQ/Jail site. However, it will be a few decades before that site would be available, if then. Then again, this is Jax we are talking about so it might be that long before a new convention center is actually on the table.
The Stadium district is not a viable option IMO.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on July 26, 2010, 07:13:52 AM
The stadium idea makes no sense to me. ... There is NOTHING at the stadium area.
BridgeTroll, you are correct if you look at what is there presently. My point is "what it could be", not what it is. Many entertainment districts and successful developments were "created" by shrewd developers/city planners/visionaries, not organically grown. Orlando built its convention center in the middle of cow pastures. But, they had a well organized master plan, stuck to it, and created a whole new "city" around their convention center. Jax usually has lousy plans, if any, and never sticks to them.
Savannah built its convention center on an island in the river. How much more disconnected can you get than that. You have to take a ferry to get to their entertainment district. Yet, it appears to be doing adequately well. I gather they didn't have the right space within their protected historic district and creatively thought outside the box.
It takes vision to see something that doesn't yet exists but may yet be a far better solution. I am merely suggesting we do more of this exercise and not just default to the site that seems most ready to go today, but may not stand the test of time tomorrow. We already did that with the PO.
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 26, 2010, 08:32:26 AM
well Philly has theirs on the second floor....w/ a ramp
I showed that the courthouse/garage site is 375,000sf or 8+ acres....so even your single floor concept fits
Tufsu, I don't care what floor a 200,000 sf exhibition hall is on. It still translates into the footprint underpinning it. By the way, you will need a footprint space for that ramp climbing 15 to 20+ feet up to the second floor so where are the space savings from that? I sure wouldn't put a kitchen on a different floor from the main hall. I have never seen that work well.
Overall, I laid out my logic for the required space in my example posted. If you want to disagree, that's your privilege. But, I would want to see detailed blueprints before I was convinced it all fits in AND meets the requirements for a first class facility today AND tomorrow. You haven't shown me any substantial change that reduces the combined internal/external footprint I estimated.
My worst fear is we downsize the facility to fit the courthouse site, and, before long, we are kicking ourselves again for building too small or not leaving adequate space to expand/grow. We would be fools of the century. I just assume do without a CC than do it wrong again.
I understand stjr. My opposition to the plan you suggest is based on our failure to "create" a district around the PO. We created a convention center with none of the attractions or amenities that convention goers desire and made little to no effort to create them. I think we would be doing the EXACT same thing by trying to "create" a walkable fun entertainment/shopping/restaurant/nightclub district where one does not currently exist. It would be doomed to failure right from the start.
The courthouse site has existing lodging... an embryonic entertainment district... the Landing and perhaps someday... shopping. There are "things" there... There is a "there" there... :)
Quote from: BridgeTroll on July 26, 2010, 02:05:57 PM
I understand stjr. My opposition to the plan you suggest is based on our failure to "create" a district around the PO.
Bridge, we agree. If you read up the thread, you will see I stated a prerequisite for my suggestion is that a sustainable piece of the development must be made upfront/at the outset (not in stages later) for it to work. This wasn't done with PO or we might not be having this conversation.
I also said we should not limit our future by our past failure to perform. If, the stadium district were to offer a superior long term solution, then we must insist that its execution be done nothing less than first class. Or, I agree, why bother.
Even at the courthouse, I think you will face some of these same issues, as it will take a real effort to make that site what I think it needs to be - if it can be done at all.
stjr, you can't just 'build it and they will come'. Restaurants and bars require a STEADY (more or less daily) stream of customers. A Stadium CC district would have only it's own conventions to sustain it. A center would need some time to attract a large volume of conventions. How would the restaurants and bars sustain themselves in the meantime?
Orlando is not a apples to apples comparison because Jax will never have that level of Convention business. Nashville, Indy, Charlotte are the role models not Vegas or Orlando.
Bay St. already has a following among locals, so it already has a foundation to build upon. Ditto with the Landing, albeit it still struggles. The Stadium district has no foundation to augment the convention business. The Arena/Ball Stadium were built too isolated from everything else to create sufficient demand for restaurants, bars, etc. Amsterdam Sky Cafe had that market to itself and could not make a go of it.
In order for the courthouse site to be 'outgrown', it has to first be a success. At least that means success is assured before size is an issue again.
Quote from: stjr on July 26, 2010, 02:02:21 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 26, 2010, 08:32:26 AM
well Philly has theirs on the second floor....w/ a ramp
I showed that the courthouse/garage site is 375,000sf or 8+ acres....so even your single floor concept fits
Tufsu, I don't care what floor a 200,000 sf exhibition hall is on. It still translates into the footprint underpinning it. By the way, you will need a footprint space for that ramp climbing 15 to 20+ feet up to the second floor so where are the space savings from that? I sure wouldn't put a kitchen on a different floor from the main hall. I have never seen that work well.
fine...I'm working with your own stated requiremnents....you said:
1. 200,000 sf for exhibit space
2. at least another 100,000 for meeting rooms/galleries/etc.
3. All of that on one level
4. 6-8 acres needed
I've shown that the current courthouse/parking lot block is over 8 acres with as much as 375,000 sf
Future growth can be accomodated by going up, getting the old city hall annex next door, or just using meeting space in the Hyatt.
What am I missing?
OK .....convince me tufsu! I concur with stjr's outline on the basic requirements and makes alot of sense to me! The peripheral area's would have to be developed at around the same time since it would all have to be self sustaining ......as in no convention events happening so any business that set up shop is on its own! City Hall does not seem to be interested, if they are no one has said squat, so that leaves private enterprise! This would take "Incentives" in order for someone to consider the idea as well as the location! With the Budget showing a short fall of $58 Million Dollars, any administration would be stretched to provide anything! Municipal Bonds might be an option if the return rate was above the 1.5% currently touted by most lending institutions and Bank of Jacksonville (IE 11E & the Carling and whatever the third one that got financed by Vescor at such a favorable rate it was ridiculous) is running out of money! Developers will more than likely be forced to foot the majority of cost but offset with some sort of incentives in order to attract those who could afford the bill!
Quote from: CS Foltz on July 26, 2010, 04:52:02 PM
OK .....convince me tufsu! I concur with stjr's outline on the basic requirements and makes alot of sense to me! The peripheral area's would have to be developed at around the same time since it would all have to be self sustaining ......as in no convention events happening so any business that set up shop is on its own!
which is exactly why the courthouse site makes the most sense...there already are peripheral areas...it is near the Landing, which has been surviving for 20+ years...it is adjacent to the Hyatt, which has been here for 10 years, and is along the burgeoning Bay Street area entertainment district.
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 26, 2010, 03:31:33 PM
fine...I'm working with your own stated requiremnents....you said:
1. 200,000 sf for exhibit space
2. at least another 100,000 for meeting rooms/galleries/etc.
3. All of that on one level
4. 6-8 acres needed
I've shown that the current courthouse/parking lot block is over 8 acres with as much as 375,000 sf
Future growth can be accomodated by going up, getting the old city hall annex next door, or just using meeting space in the Hyatt.
What am I missing?
The whole outside improvements, Tufsu. Go back and check my list that included truck access, security perimeter, outdoor staging/assembly, parking for event vehicles and managers, an outdoor entry plaza, landscaping, an outdoor venue for entertaining, etc. And, I mentioned consideration of a parking garage (at least a 1,000 cars I would think, maybe far more) and future expansions.
I don't know many that complain they have too much land, just too little. Plan ahead, way ahead!
Quote from: vicupstate on July 26, 2010, 02:58:11 PM
stjr, you can't just 'build it and they will come'. Restaurants and bars require a STEADY (more or less daily) stream of customers. A Stadium CC district would have only it's own conventions to sustain it. A center would need some time to attract a large volume of conventions. How would the restaurants and bars sustain themselves in the meantime?
Did you consider that the stadium district is a near desert for entertainment currently and that could work to its advantage. Aside from events at one of the many venues in the area, establishments here should be able to attract business from the port all the way down Talleyrand. And, with the Matthews and Hart bridges landing in the vicinity, there are more opportunities to attract Arlington and Southside residents. I do believe there also happen to be a number of residents in the area. And, I wouldn't underestimate its ability to pull from downtown, especially if the parking is free! ;)
And, as I mentioned to Lake, we should consider that a stadium area CC with hotels and entertainment may further enhance bookings at the other venues. Someone needs to study that synergy!QuoteOrlando is not a apples to apples comparison because Jax will never have that level of Convention business. Nashville, Indy, Charlotte are the role models not Vegas or Orlando.
That wasn't my point. It was that Orlando took nothing and made a great big something out of it. It can be done when executed well. Our soft underbelly is very poor executions on top of projects lacking vision and creativity. Why are we surprised by our disappointments? QuoteBay St. already has a following among locals, so it already has a foundation to build upon. Ditto with the Landing, albeit it still struggles. The Stadium district has no foundation to augment the convention business. The Arena/Ball Stadium were built too isolated from everything else to create sufficient demand for restaurants, bars, etc. Amsterdam Sky Cafe had that market to itself and could not make a go of it.
See above comments. How is City Hall Pub doing in Amersterdam's place? Looked packed on Friday night when I drove by. Also, can you tell me how many establishments are on East Bay Street and how long they have each been there? I don't think there is enough there for a long enough time to bet our $100 million CC on. The tail wagging the dog. Don't forget I would insist on the Bay Street streetcar as integral to a stadium area CC.QuoteIn order for the courthouse site to be 'outgrown', it has to first be a success. At least that means success is assured before size is an issue again.
Well, I would guess a new center will be a success sooner than later if it will ever succeed. If success comes early, we will find ourselves shortly with another undersized center. You can explain that to the taxpayers. ;) An additional expansion footprint could also be converted to other uses not anticipated upon construction. The world is always changing and having some flexible real estate is invaluable. Who would have dreamed 20 years ago that indoor malls would be passe and outdoor malls in vogue?
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 26, 2010, 08:07:27 PM
Quote from: CS Foltz on July 26, 2010, 04:52:02 PM
OK .....convince me tufsu! I concur with stjr's outline on the basic requirements and makes alot of sense to me! The peripheral area's would have to be developed at around the same time since it would all have to be self sustaining ......as in no convention events happening so any business that set up shop is on its own!
which is exactly why the courthouse site makes the most sense...there already are peripheral areas...it is near the Landing, which has been surviving for 20+ years...it is adjacent to the Hyatt, which has been here for 10 years, and is along the burgeoning Bay Street area entertainment district.
^All public subsidized investments! Anything subsidized a mile away will only compete against current subsidies instead of building on them. Also, here are a few things to clear up just in case there's some confusion.
1. Orlando's convention center was not built in the middle of nowhere. I-Drive to the north and its initial line of hotels opened in the 1970s. Immediately to the south of the Beeline, SeaWorld opened its doors in 1973. So while the actual convention center site may have been a cow pasture when it opened in 1983, there was significant tourist oriented development in the area (not even counting Disney).
2. Savannah's convention center isn't isolated either. Its a water taxi ride away from the heart of their historic district and clearly visible from the historic riverfront. It's location would be the same as a convention center placed at Friendship Fountain would be in relation to the Landing.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1001-savannahconventioncenter.jpg)
Savannah's convention center as seen from the historic district's riverfront.
That is really nice! That would not look shabby as a replacement to the Courthouse.
Quote from: stjr on July 26, 2010, 08:16:23 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 26, 2010, 03:31:33 PM
fine...I'm working with your own stated requiremnents....you said:
1. 200,000 sf for exhibit space
2. at least another 100,000 for meeting rooms/galleries/etc.
3. All of that on one level
4. 6-8 acres needed
I've shown that the current courthouse/parking lot block is over 8 acres with as much as 375,000 sf
Future growth can be accomodated by going up, getting the old city hall annex next door, or just using meeting space in the Hyatt.
What am I missing?
The whole outside improvements, Tufsu. Go back and check my list that included truck access, security perimeter, outdoor staging/assembly, parking for event vehicles and managers, an outdoor entry plaza, landscaping, an outdoor venue for entertaining, etc. And, I mentioned consideration of a parking garage (at least a 1,000 cars I would think, maybe far more) and future expansions.
I don't know many that complain they have too much land, just too little. Plan ahead, way ahead!
The 2007 study claims the exhibition hall needs to be at least 125,000 square feet. If this is true, a center with a 200,000 square foot exhibition hall would be considered planning ahead. Assuming the courthouse site can possibly accommodate up to 375,000 square feet of exhibit space (not even including the Hyatt's meeting spaces), it should be able future growth needs for decades. That type of timeline opens up the possibility of future expansion on the JSO/jail property if desired by the community. As for the support uses (ex. parking, loading docks/ramps, lobbies, etc.), a vertical center allows you to fit those things in as well. There are several examples of vertical urban convention centers across the country to indicate that this type of design is a viable solution for a pedestrian friendly environment.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-998-raleighconventioncenter-2.jpg)
A sketch of Raleigh's recently completed "vertical" downtown convention center.
Lake, check back. I took the 200,000 sf number from the CC committee report or T-U article about it posted somewhere in this thread I believe. As I recall, what the report said was that the new CC needed to be about 125,000 sf LARGER than the 75,000 +/- PO. I actually was thinking a total of 150,000 (about double the PO) before I read that this is what they wanted.
By the way, the quote below is from a MJ article on the CC in January, 2009, and calls for 250,000 sf!
QuoteWith 78,500sf of exhibit space, the Prime Osborn is large enough for just 5% of all conventions in the United States. Studies show that increasing the square footage to 250,000 sf would increase that figure to roughly 60%, thus giving the city a realistic chance to complete in this convention business.
And, this from a T-U article in 2006:QuoteJohn Reyes, president of the CVB, said the bureau's priority is to make the best use of the facilities the city already has. When it comes to the bottom line, any plans for a convention center must include at least 200,000 square feet of contiguous exhibit space (the Prime Osborn has 78,540) and a hotel within walking distance.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/081706/met_4470314.shtml
Even at 200,000 square feet, a site that could accommodate up to 375,000sf of exhibition space (not including the Hyatt's existing square footage) would still be feasible for a few decades. In the case additional square feet is needed after 2025/30 the JSO/jail site makes a pretty good location for an Orlando style expansion of exhibition space.
If we do invest in a new convention center it should be a nautical/historic theme and have the ability for a Cruise ship to moor up to it.Another thing that is needed are floating docks along the water in front of the landing It would bring a complete different crowd downtown. Boat rats are great
We are the river city after all lets inbrace it have places for boats of all sizes, be it a 10 foot Peroo to a 100ft off shore racer.I have tryed to tie up there and it just not worth the trouble.
Quote from: stjr on July 26, 2010, 08:16:23 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 26, 2010, 03:31:33 PM
fine...I'm working with your own stated requiremnents....you said:
1. 200,000 sf for exhibit space
2. at least another 100,000 for meeting rooms/galleries/etc.
3. All of that on one level
4. 6-8 acres needed
I've shown that the current courthouse/parking lot block is over 8 acres with as much as 375,000 sf
Future growth can be accomodated by going up, getting the old city hall annex next door, or just using meeting space in the Hyatt.
What am I missing?
The whole outside improvements, Tufsu. Go back and check my list that included truck access, security perimeter, outdoor staging/assembly, parking for event vehicles and managers, an outdoor entry plaza, landscaping, an outdoor venue for entertaining, etc. And, I mentioned consideration of a parking garage (at least a 1,000 cars I would think, maybe far more) and future expansions.
I don't know many that complain they have too much land, just too little. Plan ahead, way ahead!
well considering the City will also be vacating the adjacent city hall annex, there's another 125,000+ square foot site available....plenty of room for parking, a public plaza, etc...and as has been noted before, convention centers can be built in an L-shape...check out Philly for example
Quote from: thelakelander on July 26, 2010, 10:03:31 PM
Even at 200,000 square feet, a site that could accommodate up to 375,000sf of exhibition space (not including the Hyatt's existing square footage) would still be feasible for a few decades. In the case additional square feet is needed after 2025/30 the JSO/jail site makes a pretty good location for an Orlando style expansion of exhibition space.
From the quote, Lake, you can already see the possibilities for size "creep". It would appear they will "settle" for 200,000, but would prefer 250,000 or more. Leaves me to wonder what is the "right" size and are we taking the easy and cheap way out as we usually do.
a decomed ship could also be used as additional space
OK, folks, I think this recent article on 10 years of the Savannah Convention Center makes my point perfectly. Discussion about an in-town site next to the existing Marriott Hotel vs. an undeveloped remote site separated by the Savannah River. More discussion about the right size (theirs is 543,742 sf!). The clincher is this quote at the end of the article:Quote"That's one thing we learned from the Georgia World Congress Center, don't box yourself in," Shay said. He noted that Atlanta's premier exhibition venue has expanded nearly half a dozen times since it was built, and each cycle took a lot of effort to secure and rezone land.
QuoteConvention Center looks to the future
First 10 years equals $135M
Posted: May 9, 2010 - 12:18am | Updated: May 9, 2010 - 7:25am
Author: Arlinda Smith Broady
GLANCE ACROSS RIVER STREET to the opposite shore of the Savannah River, and you'll see a view that's a lot different than it was a decade ago. The Savannah International Trade and Convention Center sits little more than shouting distance from City Hall, like an alabaster ambassador. It draws thousands to the Hostess City, although it's not a money generator itself, and there were rough patches to bringing it online. Now, it's about to celebrate its 10th anniversary, and government officials, tourism experts and business leaders agree it has a bright future in helping to further local economic development.
Since it opened, the center has brought in 784 meetings and conventions, 69 trade shows, 108 public shows and 489 banquets. These events have generated more than $135 million in direct spending to the city.
Formal celebration of its first 10 years will take place this week, with a reception for the tourism industry Tuesday evening and a luncheon Wednesday featuring Lt. Gov. Casey Cagle as keynote speaker.
These days, Mark Smith, general manager of the downtown Savannah Mulberry Inn, chairs the Georgia International and Maritime Trade Center Authority, the body that oversees the trade center.
When it was first proposed, though, Smith was all for a convention center but was among opponents of the current site.
"If you look at the 17-year history of the project, the building and the bulk of the Savannah hotels are separated by a huge physical barrier," Smith said.
He and other business leaders formed Savannah First, a concerned citizens group that lobbied for an alternative site. With their urging, the city considered a tract next to the current Savannah Marriott Riverfront hotel and another where the main post office sits on Fahm Street.
Several other groups, including the Savannah Area Convention and Visitors Bureau, endorsed the Hutchinson Island site.
In late 1994, design plans were released, and the project appeared to be under way.
Cost becomes the key issue
Once the location was settled upon, the next big hurdle came from the area of funding.
The city agreed to a 1 percent increase in the hotel/motel tax to generate money for the operation of the trade and convention center in 1995. But CSX, the property developer, was having problems raising capital.
Along the way, the price of the facility doubled from an estimate of $50 million to close to $100 million. By the end of 1996, $98 million in financing was secured and a groundbreaking ceremony took place in December.
"I was a young county commissioner when the idea of an international convention center came up," said Chatham County Commissioner Patrick Shay. "It was around the time of the Olympic games, and there was such optimism about where that exposure could take us."
Chatham was one of the first counties to take advantage of new legislation allowing for a local penny sales tax called SPLOST.
By 1997, construction had begun, but cost overruns were threatening to cripple the project. The county had to come up with an additional $1 million to help keep construction on track. The final cost came in somewhere around $107 million, which included construction, land and infrastructure.
The controversy even extended to naming the facility.
The Georgia International Maritime and Trade Center gave way to the current moniker in December 1997. Several delays caused the opening to move from March to a few months later. On May 5, 2000, the Savannah International Trade and Convention Center officially opened.
After convincing state, county and city governments, taxpayers and tourists to believe the former eyesore had the potential to become a jewel, it was time to prove it.
Promises made, promises delivered
Smith, the trade center authority chairman and onetime opponent, has become its head cheerleader.
"The community had a decision to make on where to locate a sizeable investment, and we engaged in a vigorous debate to come up with the best location," he said. "Now it's time for everyone to get on board and move forward with that decision."
But it's not difficult to get behind a project that delivered on its promises. For anyone keeping score, Smith said, the trade center has done so in several areas:
-- It's fulfilled its obligation to taxpayers.
The three Special Purpose Local Option Sales Tax referendums that went into building and continue to finance the operations of the center have been successful, he said.
"The building has no debt. It operates efficiently, and the local taxpayers haven't had to put an additional dime into it," he said. The 1 percent increase in hotel/motel taxes is used for operational expenses, and the center has never had to ask for more money to stay afloat.
-- It brings in money for local businesses.
"The trade center has generated $135 million in direct spending by convention goers for meals, gifts, tours - everything," Smith said.
He added that about 600,000 hotel room nights were sold based on meetings booked at the center. And that number is probably a little higher given that some attendees may use non-convention accommodations or extend their stay.
The demand for hotel rooms has begun to swell, and that's spawning an increase in development.
In the 17 years since the trade center was conceived, we've gone from about 8,000 hotel rooms to more than 14,000 in the metro area, Smith said.
"It's not all because of the trade center, but it's a factor," he said, adding jobs and economic growth come with those new hotels.
-- It saves local taxpayers money.
In 2008, Chatham County saw $1.096 billion in tourism expenditures, which generated 11,740 jobs with a payroll of over $285 million, according to a study prepared for the Georgia Department of Economic Development. That same data show tourism also brought close to $80 million in state and local taxes.
That provides tax relief of $664 per household, according to Steve Morse, an economist at the Tourism Institute at the University of Tennessee.
At the February meeting of the Georgia Association of Convention & Visitors Bureaus, Morse gave a presentation on how to spread the word in your community that tourism is economic development. His study was prepared for the Georgia Department of Economic Development and used information from the U.S. Travel Association's report "2008 Travel Economic Impact on Georgia State, Counties and Regions."
He stressed the fact that most people don't realize how strong an impact tourism has on the economy because it doesn't come with big machines or power plants.
People understand dollars, however, he said.
"If it were not for state and local taxes generated by tourism, each Chatham County household would pay $664 more in taxes," Morse said.
-- It generates regional, national and international buzz.
Without the trade center, there's no way the G-8 summit could have taken place here six years ago.
"The trade center was integral to our bid to host the G-8 Summit in 2004," said Kevin Langston, deputy commissioner for tourism for the Georgia Department of Economic Development. "It would be impossible to buy the kind of positive media attention that Savannah and the trade center experienced during the G8 Summit. In its tenth year, the trade center remains a vital part of the community, continuing to generate business and meetings traffic to Savannah."
Smith agreed.
"We had 2,400 working journalists use our facility, stay in our hotels, eat in our restaurants and tour our city," he said.
And since only a few dozen got to report from Sea Island, there were plenty with extra time to write about a charming southern town that was emerging as a tourism powerhouse.
"And don't discount the other conventions, no matter how large or small. We're constantly getting feedback from people who've been here who want to come back," Smith said.
-- It spawned one of downtown's coolest features, the water ferry system.
Savannah has the only convention center in the United States with an accompanying water ferry. And although its potential is far from being realized, it's the key factor in unifying the island and the mainland.
Being attractive beats being big
In the convention business, biggest doesn't always mean best, but size does matter. Savannah's trade center ranks 25th in size among the 60 centers, with more than 250,000 square feet of meeting space in the country, according to CVENT Destination Guide's Supplier Network list.
The event management company supplies meeting planners with data on everything from event space to accommodations, local attractions and more.
With 543,742 square feet of meeting space at the trade center, this relatively small town is often in the running with heavy hitters such as St. Louis, Boston, Tampa, San Antonio, Miami, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Atlanta, Portland, Ore., and Columbus, Ohio.
"The CVB books about 70,000 hotel room nights each year for that facility," said Joseph Marinelli, president of the Savannah Area Convention and Visitors Bureau. "The vision to create this economic generator for Savannah has created many ripple effects."
Georgia's First City has caught the eye of meeting planners across the country.
Most recently, the trade center was recognized as one of the top convention and exposition venues by the readers of Facilities & Destinations magazine. The readership is made up of top executives in the meeting planning industry who picked Savannah among 26 honorees out of a pool of 3,000 candidates.
"These folks are on the top of their profession and demand the very best in facilities and service," said Bob Coffey, general manager of the trade center.
Marinelli agreed.
"Convention and trade show managers constantly remark on the high quality of the center's facilities, staff and service," he said. "Combined with a strong hotel package and our fare-free downtown shuttles, ferries and streetcar, it's a terrific formula for a memorable meeting in Savannah."[/color]
Laurel Humbert, president and CEO of Meeting Resources Unlimited Inc., a meeting resources management company in the Pittsburgh area, is living proof. She had been to Savannah several times to vacation and, when she saw the trade center, realized the city had more to offer.
"I looked at the property and saw Savannah in a new light," she said. "The venue is fabulous, the people at the CVB were great to work with, and the city is so charming and hospitable, I was sold right away."
Fredia Brady, director of sales and marketing for the trade center, gets that kind of reaction all the time.
"I call Savannah an emotional buy," she said. "It's impressive enough on paper, but once you tour the facility and see the city, you're hooked."
So it's no wonder the trade center is poised for one of its best years to date. Fiscal year 2010, which ends June 30, is set to have a total of 112 events and about 65,000 hotel rooms booked.
"We're getting on the radar screens of a lot of meeting planners," Brady said. "A lot of people are high on Savannah."
The facility is the cherry on top of the treat that is Savannah, said Humbert. "I put Savannah right up there with places such as San Diego and Portland as my favorite meeting spots."
She has a smaller meeting planned at the Avia hotel in October and hopes to bring more groups to experience the city's charm.
The combination of modern facilities and old-time charm sets Savannah apart from other destinations, said Marti Barrow, director of the local Tourism Leadership Council.
"Both complement each other," she said. "We're able to allow these groups to get their business done and then have a great place to play."
Bed tax revenue reports for the first quarter of 2010 show the city is poised to get back on track for record-setting seasons.
"We had some good momentum going before the recession," Marinelli said. "And it looks like we're bouncing back nicely."
A river runs through it
For all its attributes, there are times when Savannah falls short for meeting planners.
On more than one occasion, the river was as much a hindrance as a boon to local tourism. Humbert's group was in Savannah during a diesel spill on the Savannah River. That caused officials to shut down the water ferries. Buses were made available, but conventioneers were stuck for hours with nothing to do.
"The plan B didn't kick in as smoothly as it should have," she said. "I didn't get many complaints - the city really sells itself."
But from a logistics standpoint, it could be a planner's nightmare. Humbert said she knows other meeting planners who won't even look at Savannah for large conventions even though the trade center has the space.
She said they don't like the thought of having such a large physical barrier separating accommodations and activities from meeting space.
That's one of the reasons why there's a big push for more development around the trade center.
"The beauty of what we have now is that the next phase will accelerate the need to expand further," Smith said.
A civic master plan has been drawn for the side of the island facing downtown. And the trade center is the focal point. Another convention-level hotel with about 500 rooms, shopping, restaurants, a museum and other attractions are on tap.
And in the not-too-distant future, the center itself will be ready for an upgrade.
"That's one thing we learned from the Georgia World Congress Center, don't box yourself in," Shay said. He noted that Atlanta's premier exhibition venue has expanded nearly half a dozen times since it was built, and each cycle took a lot of effort to secure and rezone land.[/color]
"We have a virtual blank slate, and if we use it wisely, we can continue to do great things," Shay said.
http://savannahnow.com/exchange/2010-05-09/first-10-years-equals-135m
well stjr...putting a convention center in an isolated location (like the Prime Osborn or the stadium area) is one way to ensure it won't ever need to be expanded.
now on the other side....Philly moved its Convention Center downtown in 1994 and increased its space more than twofold....just 15 short years later the center had been such a success they needed to expand by another 50%...so they went through eminent domain and got it done.
Seems to me like that would be a good problem to have....nevertheless, Lake has shown that we can go vertical or just take over the police/jail site if more space is needed long-term.
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 26, 2010, 11:08:04 PM
well stjr...putting a convention center in an isolated location (like the Prime Osborn or the stadium area) is one way to ensure it won't ever need to be expanded.
Tufsu, did you read the Savannah article above? Didn't stop them. Nor did it stop Orlando. PO problem, as with so much in Jax, and as previously noted in this thread, has as much or more to do with poor execution than its location. When it was built, a hotel next to it was promised. It should have been built simultaneously with the CC, not at "sometime in the future". One without the other should not have been permitted. Quotenow on the other side....Philly moved its Convention Center downtown in 1994 and increased its space more than twofold....just 15 short years later the center had been such a success they needed to expand by another 50%...so they went through eminent domain and got it done.
Eminent domain in Jax isn't going to be too popular (or, likely, cost effective). Also, with a CC on the river, expansion options are cut in half. And, would you have them close Bay Street to expand into the jail footprint? Running the street under the CC would be a security nightmare in today's world. I don't think this is a cost effective option either.QuoteSeems to me like that would be a good problem to have....nevertheless, Lake has shown that we can go vertical or just take over the police/jail site if more space is needed long-term.
See my comment above about expanding over/through Bay Street to the jail site. I have no problem with going vertical, but, if you want to expand the exhibit hall, it needs to be all on one floor. That mandates a larger footprint. Also, I think you have practical limits to going vertical given the number of people you may have to move from floor to floor at one time, not to mention forcing potential duplication on each floor of spaces like kitchens/food service. At some point, the inefficiencies kick in to offset the land savings.
Besides, just because you "can" go vertical, doesn't mean its the preferred or best option. Why go up if you have an opportunity to go "out"? Just to make a point? We need a functionally superior CC and I say go with what adds to its chances for the most success.
Go back and re-read Savannah's experience as I don't think you are absorbing the article (probably because it counteracts your prejudices on the subject ::) )
Well... It would not hurt my feelings to see both Courthouse /Jail go. I was never in love with either building.. Where would you propose, assuming expansion was needed, to relocate the Jail?
If the jail were ever moved, I would think it would follow to the new courthouse area. Doesn't that have something to do with why the jail is where it is now?
I'll say it again. There is a significant difference from locating a center within direct view of complementing uses verses it being out of sight and out of mind a mile away from everything. Savannah's center is no different than the placement of a center on the Southbank directly across from the Landing. There may be a river dividing it from the restaurants and entertainment but it's a part of the riverfront scene by view and water taxi. Comparing the parking lot of Everbank Stadium (that sounds nice) to Savannah's center is an insult to their creativity.
Quote from: stjr on July 26, 2010, 11:33:21 PM
If the jail were ever moved, I would think it would follow to the new courthouse area. Doesn't that have something to do with why the jail is where it is now?
Well since LaVilla is pretty much vacant land I guess that makes sense.. another 50 million dollar building. :)
Stick the jail out in the boonies. There's no requirement that it has to be downtown. Off the top of my head, both Tampa and Orlando's jails are not within their downtowns or adjacent to their courthouses.
So you want to first tear down the current Jail, then pay to have a convention center built there. THEN you have to pay to build a new jail since you torn down the old one. Though Cecil might be an good place to relocate the jail... 20 minutes from my house.
No...tear the Jail down when/if expansion is needed.. if I am following the thread correctly.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 26, 2010, 11:37:43 PM
Comparing the parking lot of Everbank Stadium (that sounds nice) to Savannah's center is an insult to their creativity.
At least they have some creativity to be insulted! Where's ours? :D
Quote from: thelakelander on July 26, 2010, 08:52:52 PM
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-998-raleighconventioncenter-2.jpg)
A sketch of Raleigh's recently completed "vertical" downtown convention center.
By the way, I visited the Raleigh CC web site, and, among other things, this is what is on the GROUND floor, with additional support space shown in the footprint outline but not described:Quote
* 150,000 sq. ft. of contiguous space, easily divided into three halls
* Flexible hall configurations accommodating up to 790 10'x10' booths
* Seating for 12,000 banquet-style; 15,000 theater-style
* 12 covered loading docks and numerous ramps for direct drive-in access to exhibit halls
* State-of-the-art lighting, sound and telecommunications
* Concession stands in each hall
Interestingly, the reason it may be multilevel is because the ground floor is street level on one side and the THIRD floor is street level on another. That won't be happening here. More importantly, the exhibit hall and its support areas dictate the footprint, not the meeting rooms. Note that is has TWELVE COVERED loading docks plus drive in ramps.
See:http://www.raleighconvention.com/Planners/facilities-exhibithall.php
That is a great plan that Raleigh has, and isn't that city far smaller then ours??
Every city is smaller then us, EXCEPT IN BRAIN CAPACITY!
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Mattius92 on July 26, 2010, 11:45:53 PM
So you want to first tear down the current Jail, then pay to have a convention center built there. THEN you have to pay to build a new jail since you torn down the old one. Though Cecil might be an good place to relocate the jail... 20 minutes from my house.
No. I would advocate not touching the jail and putting the convention center on the current courthouse site. Decades from now when the jail needs to upgraded, expanded or replaced, that site may be a viable location for future "massive" convention center expansion (assuming we need to go that route decades from now).
(http://timberrattlesnake89.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/dcp_0841.jpg)
Move the damn Jail to the middle of the Okefenokee or out on one of the islands in the river, bet that would discourage leaks.
Really though, get it the hell out of what should be some of the most expensive real estate in Florida. Sure would make a great location for a nice hotel and the start of a Hogan's Creek walk similar to San Antonio's or OKC.
(http://www.nacada.ksu.edu/AdminInst/2007/images/riverwalk5.jpg)
OCKLAWAHA
I decided to start playing around with scaled aerials of Jax and Savannah to compare head to head.
Aerial 1: DT Jacksonville
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/jax-7535ft/948971300_CJUYf-L.jpg)
Red = complementing retail, restaurants & entertainment
Green = Convention center hotel
Orange = Debated convention center sites in this thread
Aerial 2: DT Savannah
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/sav-7536ft/948971329_Z9g7q-L.jpg)
Red = complementing retail, restaurants & entertainment
Green = Convention center hotel
Orange = Savannah convention center
Then I decided to take Savannah's convention center and drop it on Jax aerials at the same scale.
Aerial 3: Jacksonville - Current county courthouse site with Savannah's center overlayed on it.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/jax-1627ft/948971274_Lkhs7-L.jpg)
Aerial 4: Jacksonville - Current courthouse site along with JSO/jail site.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/jax-1627ft2/948971234_c2xwb-L.jpg)
Aerial 5: Jacksonville - Stadium parking lot J site with Savannah convention center on it.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/jax-1627ft3/948971256_6aey3-L.jpg)
QuoteAbout the Savannah International Trade and Convention Center
A superbly functional, architecturally stunning 330,000 sq. ft gleaming waterfront complex on the historic Savannah River features 100,000 sq. ft. of divisible exhibit space, 50,000 sq. ft. of prime meeting space, including 13 meeting rooms, four executive board rooms, a 25,000 sq. ft. Grand Ballroom, and a state-of-art 367 seat auditorium.
Overlooking Savannah’s world-renowned Riverfront and landmark Historic District, the Savannah International Trade & Convention Center is adjacent to the Westin Savannah Harbor Golf Resort & Spa. And just a two-minute water ferry ride away, adorns the Hyatt Regency, Savannah Marriott Riverfront, Hilton Savannah Desoto accompanied by charming inns and complimentary medium-sized hotel chains within the Historic Meetings District.
As a SMG managed facility, you have our pledge of personal service, professionalism and performance. Headquartered in Philadelphia, SMG is the leading professional facility management company with over 200 venues worldwide. For additional company information, visit www.smgworld.com.
https://www.savtcc.com/savtcc/2/The aerials reveal many things.
1. Parking Lot J may be smaller in area than the county courthouse/annex property.
2. Horizontal expansion on parking lot J is limited unless we relocate spaces like the Veteran's Memorial Wall.
3. Parking Lot J is limited in horizontal expansion and would still need a major hotel to be subsidized to open next door. Hyatt and Bay Street's entertainment districts fit like a glove with the courthouse site.
4. A convention center at the stadium would require parking decks to built to replace current parking facilities.
5. Considering the size of both lots, an urban vertical plan would be needed for both.
6. Despite being across the river, Savannah's convention center is visible and a lot closer to the historic riverfront than parking lot J is to the Northbank core.
7. The city hall annex building could probably be converted into a mix of uses (including additional hotel space) if needed or demolished and replaced with something new. It really presents us with a ton of opportunities for reuse.
8. Going vertical, you could get all the ample space a convention center would need at both sites.
9. Savannah's convention center totals 330,000 square feet on one level. Thus a two story center with similar footprints on the Jax sites would total 660,000 square feet with around 300,000 square feet of exhibition space on the second level.
10. With a vertical center, parking could be accommodated on the center's roof or the first floor (buffered from the streets with retail/cultural/entertainment/main entrances, etc.), making a center three stories.
We could Move the Jail to the old JEA building ;) .. jk
Love the aerials Lake!
When I was looking over these I noticed that big empty parcel that used to be the generating station. That place should be considered as a site I believe. However it does have problems, but it has ample room, and is close to the skyway and a hotel. The retail isn't there though, but it could come.
If I am understanding Lake's plan, he wants to locate it on the North bank to as to connect the destinations along that side.. I suggested the DCSB area..close to where you are speaking of , Mattius...
That site should really be developed into a multi-use convention center site, complete with an onsite hotel, retail and more, and a connection to the skyway so people can get to the Northbank from there.
The JEA property on the Southbank presents the same problems that plagues the Prime Osborn and Stadium sites. No attached hotel and not within walking distance of anything without major upgrades and public infrastructure investments along Prudential Drive and through the DCSB's property.
You're literally locked into investing in a center and hoping that if you build it they (the other uses) will come. The Prime Osborn has been there for 25 years and "they still have not come." Going with the county courthouse site, you're building it where "they are already at."
Lake, good work on the pix. You have to say the Savannah CC is a very tight fit (it appeasr to even be slightly oversized) for the courthouse site. And, remember the building alone does not make the CC. You still need some external space for support and access. Nothing left on this site for that it appears.
At Lot J, there immediately appears to be more breathing room. And, like the courthouse, Lot J has surrounding property for additional use. Quite a bit more. The Pepsi zone in front of the stadium would make a great spot for a hotel or garage. The retention pond could be redeveloped after re-engineering the guy wires for the TV tower. The parking lots (Lots M, N, etc.) to the north could be used for hotel/entertainment or rolled up into parking garages freeing up much more space. Bottom line, there is lots of open space around lot J and it adds up to much more than what is around the courthouse. Any garages built could be lined with street level retail. The Pepsi zone could even be moved to a garage roof top with an aerial connection to the stadium's mid-deck. And, the CC and/or hotel(s) here could be built above (or below) parking just as you suggested at the courthouse site. Lots of possibilities if we get creative.
Bottom line, is, which site gives us the most physical flexibility? Lot J is still tops on my list.
The Lot J idea is great, as long as there is a street rail line or an extension of the Skyway to connect it. However there is no on-site hotel.
Then Sometime in the not too distant future, the conventioneers gather at lot J and plan their day accordingly...
http://www.youtube.com/v/MGTWmrnPdgk&hl=en_US&fs=1?color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca>
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: stjr on July 27, 2010, 01:35:43 AM
Lake, good work on the pix. You have to say the Savannah CC is a very tight fit (it appeasr to even be slightly oversized) for the courthouse site. And, remember the building alone does not make the CC. You still need some external space for support and access. Nothing left on this site for that it appears.
The Savannah center is on a single floor. I've always stated that the courthouse site would need an urban center that is at least two or three stories. Nevertheless, the entire Savannah site can fit on the courthouse site and you still have the city hall annex building block to work with.
QuoteAt Lot J, there immediately appears to be more breathing room. And, like the courthouse, Lot J has surrounding property for additional use. Quite a bit more. The Pepsi zone in front of the stadium would make a great spot for a hotel or garage. The retention pond could be redeveloped after re-engineering the guy wires for the TV tower. The parking lots (Lots M, N, etc.) to the north could be used for hotel/entertainment or rolled up into parking garages freeing up much more space. Bottom line, there is lots of open space around lot J and it adds up to much more than what is around the courthouse. Any garages built could be lined with street level retail. The Pepsi zone could even be moved to a garage roof top with an aerial connection to the stadium's mid-deck. And, the CC and/or hotel(s) here could be built above (or below) parking just as you suggested at the courthouse site. Lots of possibilities if we get creative.
Everything you've stated would cost us hundreds of millions more to subsidize and compete against the Northbank core that we've already subsidized. It does not make fiscal sense to to that, especially considering that by doubling up, you're essentially creating an unsustainable environment for both since the market can't support them.
QuoteBottom line, is, which site gives us the most physical flexibility? Lot J is still tops on my list.[/b]
Its not about which site gives us flexibility. If that were the case, it would make sense to go for the JEA site or something near Cecil or SJTC. It's also about creating a destination, affordability, taking advantage of what we already have and being practical. We've already been down the road of if we build it they will come and 25 years later, we're still waiting for them to come. It's time to try something different that has appeared to be successful in many of the places we compete against. Let's not try and recreate the wheel when there's no reason for us too.
The model for development around the sports complex should be Wrigleyville, not Camden Yards.
Consideration should also be given to what the convention industry when you factor in sustainability and the internet. That being said, there is something to be said for going somewhere and kicking the tires of whatever big ass machine someone is showing. Commodore Point and the Ford Assembly
Plant properties have a lot of land. The Ford Plant has 163,000 SF, most of it in one glorious space.What if you had a green daylit convention center for Phase One? Extend the Skyway, build a
hotel between Everbank Stadium and the convention center, start opening bars and restaurants on Phillip Randolph. I left out the high speed rail/multimodal.
Amazing what that first cup of coffee will do.
Quote from: stjr on July 26, 2010, 11:27:28 PM
Eminent domain in Jax isn't going to be too popular (or, likely, cost effective). Also, with a CC on the river, expansion options are cut in half. And, would you have them close Bay Street to expand into the jail footprint? Running the street under the CC would be a security nightmare in today's world.
well Philly did it in 1994 with 12th Street....and just did it again with 13th Street....and Orlando has 2 separate buildings, on either side of I-Drive.
Thst said, all we would need is a skybridge that goes diagonally across the intersection of Bay/Liberty.
One question about the stadium site though....if the convention center went down by the stadium, where would you put the replacement parking needed for sporting events?
Remember what happened a few years ago when the Fair was held at the same time as FL-GA./...the City has vowed that won't happen again.
The Prime Osborn has lots of space around it too, WITHOUT having to replace stadium parking with garages. Lot J is no larger than the courthouse site.
'Breathing room' = asphalt parking with nothing in sight to support the functions of a CC.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 27, 2010, 06:47:28 AM
QuoteAt Lot J, there immediately appears to be more breathing room. And, like the courthouse, Lot J has surrounding property for additional use. Quite a bit more. The Pepsi zone in front of the stadium would make a great spot for a hotel or garage. The retention pond could be redeveloped after re-engineering the guy wires for the TV tower. The parking lots (Lots M, N, etc.) to the north could be used for hotel/entertainment or rolled up into parking garages freeing up much more space. Bottom line, there is lots of open space around lot J and it adds up to much more than what is around the courthouse. Any garages built could be lined with street level retail. The Pepsi zone could even be moved to a garage roof top with an aerial connection to the stadium's mid-deck. And, the CC and/or hotel(s) here could be built above (or below) parking just as you suggested at the courthouse site. Lots of possibilities if we get creative.
Everything you've stated would cost us hundreds of millions more to subsidize and compete against the Northbank core that we've already subsidized. It does not make fiscal sense to to that, especially considering that by doubling up, you're essentially creating an unsustainable environment for both since the market can't support them.
I like STJR's approach to ideas and the much-needed injection of unique creativity into these discussions...especially some of his out-of-the-box ideas that occasionally run counter to the standard urban planning . But on this point, I side with Lake and feel this is the strongest argument against the Sports Complex and for the Courthouse site. As STJR said in an earlier post that the sports complex plan, if done right, could even pull from downtown. Which is revealing since it's exactly what we wouldn't want to have happen. Supposing this plan for a "comprehensive convention center village" takes off and is an unparalleled success at the Sports Complex...why would anyone want to have that at the expense of the budding synergy of the Bay St. District and Laura Trio, etc??
I think we need to take a hard look at the present utilization of the current convention center(as a convention center). If the bookings are limited, then maybe we should find another "existing" building to use as a convention center and go with the JTA's idea of a full blown transportation center. I also would like for JTA or Mr. Miller to think of Jacksonville as a 24 hour town and look for ways to run it's buses to accommodate those individuals who would like transportation not only for work and pleasure but for a way to get around if and when this transportation center comes on line(trains and Greyhound buses don't stop running at 11pm so why should our public transportation.) I have no quarral with moving Amtrak from it's present location but I do have a problem with the limited trackage and weather or not workers of the new transportation center would have problems with the construction of the new alteration of this building, while Amtrak customers are waiting for their trains to depart and arrive, if this decision is made. If problems do arise.....where do we relocate these passengers? In regards to trackage...maybe we can handle the trains now but I doubt we would have the space for any future planning. I would suggest the parking space behind the terminal be used for extra trackage and build a parking garage above that trackage. Start adding the trains this building would have to accommodate now and in the future.
Cost Plus is invariably a conlfict of interest without proper predetermined cost limits.
Too much grey area that increases the fluff. The fluff being the means to increase profitability by unneccesary cost increases.
SMG.... You're fired.
I thought 'cost plus' was just that. At least in my job it is.
I may get a retainer or a deposit, but as the plus gets added - it gets subtracted from the initial payment until I'm collecting a monthly draw. Is the $1M a fee collected in addition to or is it a total of the % they collected over the years?
Could a new convention center fit west of the current convention center (you'd also expand north to snug up to Bay Street and, heck, could build out on the west side of the skyway station between Bay and Forsyth with the use of a pedestrian skywalk, can you go a bit vertical at all with a convention center as well?)?
Might be nice to build it out in bite-sized phases as transportation moves into and increases in the adjoining current convention center / future transportation center site...also, maybe a lot of energy if those two facilities abutted. Maybe phasing in like that is more feasible politically?
Just a brainstormed idea to bat around...be gentle...not advocating anything!
Yes, but it would be a waste of money without a new hotel and convention center support businesses. Plus, we can't fill the ones we already have. I think the idea of the Prime Osborn remaining a convention center long term has already sailed. The true feasibility of it died with the city's decision to subsidize the Hyatt instead of Bucky Clarkson's proposed Marriott next the Prime Osborn a decade ago. With Brown as mayor, it seems like we need to be figuring out the timeline for a move from the P.O. and coordinating the transportation center's buildout with that.
I see your post on July 27th...
Seems like you're focusing on synergies with Bay Street and with Hyatt's already existing convention space. I can definitely buy into your points.
And money wise, wouldn't that be one of the cheaper options? You're leveraging off of the Hyatt, you've got the land on Bay Street, some development and more potential on Bay Street, and you're moving transportation into the existing train station. Except for, perhaps, transit...I think it would be nice to get a $ Skyway stop.
Suppose we make the decision to bite the bullet and do away with the current convention center, converting it to the transportation center - right NOW. No more beating around the bush - just do it.
What would really happen, financially? Could whatever is currently scheduled for the PO be routed to the halls of our hotels, to the Morocco, to the Arena, to Everbank Field, to a hanger at one of the airports?
How much would we suffer if the schedule was just cancelled or at least phased out while the structure and surround was converted to transportation use?
Whose pockets would not be lined?
Greyhound could immediately start to use the facilities, even if they had to pull the buses into the dirt lot, with a minimum of fuss and a minimum of renovations to convert the main terminal back to a waiting room and ticket counter. Greyhound is going to be paying for a lot of stuff anyhow to move their operation so they can start early with a little rent and some taxes to get the ball rolling. Taxis and city buses would have no problem with a little rerouting to meet the incoming or outgoing Greyhounds and the Skyway is right across the street. Parking is already there in the back for employees, park and ride, some short or long term parking as well as passenger pickup/drop off.
Amtrak will see we are serious and just maybe get busy moving back from BFE Amshack.
Upcoming events at the Prime Osborn: http://www.jaxevents.com/primeosborn.php
On the surface, it looks like the events use exhibit hall space. The Hyatt has about 110k square feet of "flexibile exhibit space", while the PO has 265k. I'd wonder if the events use all 265,000? Of course to move these things, there may be some thorny issues with contracts possible signed over a year ago, and some events may have to change their dates.
http://jacksonville.hyatt.com/hyatt/hotels/events/meetings/index.jsp
the key is for exhibits is continguous space...the Prime has about 75,000sf, which is clearly an issue with even big local events like the Auto show....the Hyatt has less than 30,000sf of contiguous exhibit space
The cost isn't worth that small number of events, that in total draw less visitors in a year than a single walmart draws in one week. The cost/benefit analysis is not worth it, we aren't equipped to compete in the convention business and the building is the least of our problems.
Also, Tufsu, you act like we aren't just competing against ourselves with two publicly-funded convention centers, which we are. Veterans Arena was designed as flex space, it is in fact another whole convention center, with a gigantic contiguous space. The auto and boat show could easily go there. Problem solved. Without spending a dime of tax money.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on July 16, 2011, 02:39:46 PM
Also, Tufsu, you act like we aren't just competing against ourselves with two publicly-funded convention centers, which we are. Veterans Arena was designed as flex space, it is in fact another whole convention center, with a gigantic contiguous space. The auto and boat show could easily go there. Problem solved. Without spending a dime of tax money.
Nice try...but as others (including Lakelander) have noted, the arena does not have nearly enough exhibit space...the floor of the arena (with seats folded back) is less than 30,000 sq ft.
I gotta agree with ChriswUFGator on this one (and that's kinda scary). I think we can do without the POCC at least temporarily especially if it saves us big bucks on the JRTC.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on July 17, 2011, 09:21:18 AM
I gotta agree with ChriswUFGator on this one (and that's kinda scary). I think we can do without the POCC at least temporarily especially if it saves us big bucks on the JRTC.
The schedule as shown on the website is VERY light, and it does look like most of that could be held elsewhere in town.
I do think a convention center opened in the future is in Jacksonville's best interest, but such a development needs to be started at the same time as the "stuff" that needs to be around it, and that "stuff" should be the sorts of things that also serves the needs of the people who already live or work in Jacksonville.
^That would be the point of relocating it next to the Hyatt. It would help support the struggling things (Jacksonville Landing, Hyatt, Florida Theater, Bay Street entertainment district, etc.) that residents would like to see successful. I for one would like to see a holistic plan for COJ owned property in the DT area be vetted before making expensive decisions on the convention center either way.
^IF we're going to spend taxpayer money on a new convention center, holistic planning would be the right way to go about it. But we shouldn't base our plans around a center being created, it remains to be seen if we should (or even could) build one.
They Cox Convention Center in Oklahoma City is literally in the middle of downtown as are many others. But OKC has an edge, it is:
150 feet to the Amtrak Station,
150 feet to NEW Arena,
150 feet to hotel Marriot, ,
150 feet to hotel Renaissance,
150 feet to Myriad Gardens Park,
300 feet to hotel Westin,
300 feet to Bricktown (think New Orleans and toss in the San Antonio Riverwalk)
700 feet to Union Bus Station
1,800 feet to NEW Baseball Park,
2,000 feet to Harkin 16 Theaters,
3,800 feet to Bass Pro,
Now lets look at the Prime Osbourn Convention Center:
2,300 feet to Bus Station
2,300 feet to Omni Hotel
2,300 feet to Times-Union Center
2,500 feet to River Walk
2,800 feet to Jacksonville Landing
5,000 feet to Friendship Park
5,000 feet to MOSH
6,300 feet to Baseball
6,600 feet to Arena
Do the math people... not to mention that in the summer we have 100% humidity.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Tacachale on July 18, 2011, 09:05:50 AM
^IF we're going to spend taxpayer money on a new convention center, holistic planning would be the right way to go about it. But we shouldn't base our plans around a center being created, it remains to be seen if we should (or even could) build one.
We shouldn't pay $180 million for four transportation centers to be built around something that
"may or may not" be there by the time the transportation center is complete either. With that said, I have no problem putting the breaks on the JRTC and forcing the city to make a sound decision on the future of both before having a Duval County Courthouse II situation on our hands.
Btw, maybe it's just me but I find it really silly that we can't quickly come to some resolution on this. After all, its not like the Prime Osborn is privately owned. I can only imagine what would happen if we were working with an urban site with multiple owners and really complex site constraints. Maybe we'd end up with a $150 million less costly solution like St. Louis.
(http://info.aia.org/aiarchitect/thisweek09/0306/0306d_stlouis5.jpg) (http://urbanreviewstl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/img_1712.jpg)
http://66.151.101.112/transportation-projects/st-louis-gateway-transportation-center.aspx
Let's just be glad a new convention center is on the table. Until the new court house opens and the muscial chairs begin, there is no much they can do but what has already been done... Renderings and discussing how it will be fpaid or. Once the site is vacant, I think we will have a better idea what we will with the new and old convention center. That is why JRTC needs to be put to a complete hault as well. There is just too much that has to be considered.
I don't know that we should be glad. It would be cool to use the Prime Osborne for something else, but would a new convention center really attract enough new convention business to be worth the cost? Especially considering this year's budget cuts.
And as far as the transportation center goes, it's not a stretch to be concerned about planning a $180 dollar transit center that's contingent upon us also building a $150 million convention center (or however much it would be). We have a LOT more thinking to do before we commit to these projects.
I agree. I just want them to be done right. Both of them. We can not afford (literally) for anything to go wrong. Weve screwed up enough as is LOL As long as Mayor Brown keeps a tight grip on the project(s), I think everything will pan out fine. But I do believe having a state of the art covention is a must. Even city as small as Daytona has bigger and better covention centers than we do. Its time for us to step up our game if we want to be considered a true "major city".
All distances from Google Map are approximent following sidewalks within downtown.
Now lets look at the Prime Osbourn Convention Center:
2,300 feet to Bus Station
2,300 feet to Full Service Restaurants
2,300 feet to Omni Hotel
2,300 feet to Times-Union Center
2,500 feet to River Walk
2,800 feet to Jacksonville Landing
5,000 feet to Friendship Park
5,000 feet to MOSH
6,300 feet to Baseball
6,600 feet to Arena
The Courthouse Site
2,300 feet to Bus Station
150 feet to Full Service Restaurants
2,100 feet to Omni Hotel
150 feet from Hyatt Hotel
2,100 feet to Times Union Center
150 feet to River Walk
900 feet to Jacksonville Landing
1,800 feet to Friendship Park
2,300 feet tp MOSH
3,400 feet to Baseball
3,600 feet to Arena
Everbank Field Parking Lot Site:
6,800 feet to Bus Station
4,400 feet to Full Service Restaurants
6,500 feet from Omni
4,400 feet from, Hyatt
1,600 feet to Baseball
1,900 feet to Arena
5,550 feet to Times-Union Center
700 feet to River Walk
5,700 feet to Jacksonville Landing
6,200 feet to Friendship Park
6,700 feet to MOSH
1,000 feet to Baseball
1,300 feet to Arena
Which one would YOU like to visit?
OCKLAWAHA