Should Jax invest in a new convention center?

[Mattius92]

It says Jacksonville Terminal on the front of the Building.  Terminal it should be

I agree, and I also support moving the convention center to the old courthouse site. Completing these two tasks would really be great.

Also I like the idea of an Gainesville-Jacksonville connection. However first I want Jacksonville itself to get commuter rail and streetcars.

Our convention center needs to have at least 200,000 sq. ft of EXHIBITION SPACE, currently we have 78,500.

Plus we have a beautiful river, we need to make use of it. So move it on the river!!

[Seraphs]

One thing good on this thread is at least 98% or more want the Jax Terminal returned to transportation.  Why are we so split on the convention center?  Stephendare, you normally make good sense, however, this time I must disagree with you.  What Lake says makes perfect sense.  

Even in a little hubba bubba city like Chattanooga, Tn I can see their foot traffic increase because of their convention center.

[thelakelander]

There is no history because we never constructed or invested in a workable facility.  In a similar fashion, we can't say the Skyway is a complete failure because we never built or operated in a manner to where it would work or become reliable.  We also can't say people won't walk in this town because we haven't invested in an urban landscape where walking would be a desirable thing to do.  

Anyway, I agree 100% that we should not build a nex convention center as the centerpiece of a revitalization plan.  That would be a fools errand.  However, it's also fools errand to run off the conventions, trade shows and special events we already have because of substandard facilities and locational issues.  Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, it makes sense to turn a lemon into lemonade.  A relocation of the convention center to the Bay Street courthouse site does this on so many levels that it's hard to make a logical case not to do so.

[CS Foltz]

Well the current Convention Center, is short on space plus it lacks the infrastructure surrounding it, hotels, eateries and boutique shops in order to be self sustaining! If the Prime were to return to being what it was, then something else would have to be built if sharing (I do understand why some people are against the concept.....do not agree with it but understand) is not a logical idea! If the Prime as is, does not have sufficient area for the type of displaying needed, then it was doomed to failure from the start by the Nifty Fifty who talked the City into taking it over as a convention center! Right now, it is not suitable for either with out changes taking place! As a convention center......the whole second level is not used and the lower floor is not big enough to do the job! As a Rail Center, with minimal cost, we could be off and running! Move it to somewhere that takes advantage of what the river has to offer and lets get it going!

[Timkin]

If we are going to move forth on a new one, lets please make this one count! Lake.. I apologize for my difference with you on this topic, but I have to agree that the one we have as it is now is not what it should or could be..

[Ocklawaha]

As a slightly inebriated transportation guy, I have to say I really don't give a damn what happens with the Convention Center as-is. Just get it the hell out of my train station! 7-11 anyone? As I have said, I really don't give a damn and I'll put 100T% of my faith in Lake and his urban planner views, after all, he depends on my transit views! Follow The Lakelander or be damned Jacksonville, if you to ride watch MJ we'll be critiquing every plan with REAL professionals!!



OCKLAWAHA
SOCO VERSION!!  

[Timkin]

God forbid that happen after the last 50 years    .. 

It will not hurt my feelings ANY to see the current convention center serving another purpose.

[stjr]

I have just read through this thread and, believe it or not, I am inclined to side with Mr. Dare on this one.  I have suggested before that the convention center would be best suited for either the Shipyards or in the stadium area.

Looking at an aerial ( http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Jacksonville+Veterans+Memorial+Arena,+Jacksonville,+FL&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=53.477264,135.263672&ie=UTF8&hq=Jacksonville+Veterans+Memorial+Arena,&hnear=Jacksonville,+Duval,+Florida&ll=30.32399,-81.641314&spn=0.014392,0.033023&t=h&z=16 ) of the subject properties, I continue to think that the courthouse site is not fully adequate for our long term needs if we are serious about doing a convention center right and for the money it would cost to rebuild.  I still believe we need a minimum square to rectangular footprint of 6 to 8 acres to accommodate an exhibit hall of 150,000 to 200,000 square feet plus support services and support vehicle parking and access.  The old courthouse site just doesn't cut it.

Putting it in walkable proximity to the arena, ballpark, and stadium creates synergies in parking, access, and traffic management for large numbers of attendees as well as the opportunity for larger events to make use of the combined capacity of these venues to host large event demands for seating and/or indoor (Arena) and/or outdoor (fields of the ballpark or stadium) exhibit areas.  Additionally, Metro park provides ready access to waterfront (for boat shows and tourist/visitors) and an eventual connection to an extended riverwalk.  The Jax Fairgrounds offer even more exhibit space and sundry facilities.

Looking at the aerial, Parking Lot J of the stadium looks viable (possibly with the area occupied by the retention pond if the guy wires for the TV antenna could be re-engineered).  An alternate would be the lots between the stadium west entrance and the ballpark.  While a political nightmare, the fairgrounds site would also be a candidate.

With clever design and good land use management, hotels and restaurants could line surrounding streets (Randolph, Adams, Duval, Palmetto, Georgia).  And ideal would be hotels over garages with ground floor retail facing the streets.  

Atlanta has an outlying convention center and the granddaddy of them all, Orlando, was built far from Orlando's downtown.  Orlando's worked because there was a master plan that was adhered to to bring development in and around the convention center, such development able to fall back on International Drive traffic if the convention center isn't delivering.  Likewise, hotels at a stadium district convention center would have alternate business from all the events in the surrounding facilities.  Having waterfront amenities via Metro Park would further entice visitors to such a hotel.

Lastly, running a streetcar down Bay Street/Gator Bowl Boulevard would be icing on the cake in creating the desirable connectivity with Downtown and the East Bay entertainment corridor.

This plan, to me, provides all the upside with little to no disadvantages to alternate sites.

By the way, I don't think we owe the Hyatt any special favors.  It was built by Adams Mark with free land from the City and never was a promise made to have the convention center adjacent to it, just a Super Bowl.  And, we delivered on that.

I also agree that a convention center, like the Jaguars, is "fun" to have but it won't cure any of the ills in this community, just make it more tolerable to look the other way by building our self esteem.  That's an intangible that is hard to value.  I do support making PO a multimodal station without it being a convention center so I guess that puts the CC in play at some point.  Just don't expect the sun to burn any brighter just because we build it.  It will more likely be a bigger money drain than the one we have now.

Someone also needs to examine the general future of CC's.  With teleconferencing, the internet, social networking, etc., will the convention business shrink or grow?

[Timkin]

I concur on LOCATION, stjr.  I do not think it needs to be on the site of the Courthouse.  Just another opinion.... but I definitely can see where it needs to go away from Jacksonville Terminal.

[thelakelander]

As you know, we differ on the location of a new convention center for many of the issues that have already been debated time and time again, so no need to go back and question most of your reply above.  So I'll skip down to this one.

I also agree that a convention center, like the Jaguars, is "fun" to have but it won't cure any of the ills in this community, just make it more tolerable to look the other way by building our self esteem.  That's an intangible that is hard to value.  I do support making PO a multimodal station without it being a convention center so I guess that puts the CC in play at some point.  Just don't expect the sun to burn any brighter just because we build it.  It will more likely be a bigger money drain than the one we have now.

Someone also needs to examine the general future of CC's.  With teleconferencing, the internet, social networking, etc., will the convention business shrink or grow?

It seems like we have a tendency to focus on what we don't have instead of trying to keep and better utilize what we do have.  Even with advances in technology, it's hard to see trade shows, car shows, competitions, job fairs, etc. disappearing with the use of teleconferencing, the internet and social networking.  There's still something about people to people interaction that technology will never replace.

Assuming the PO goes back to transportation what do you propose we do with our existing events that use this facility?  Should we just let them leave town because having an exhibition hall may not turn a profit?  Also, why should we expect a public exhibition hall to make a direct profit on it's own but not have the same view towards roads, mass transit, parks, public schools and libraries?

[thelakelander]

Regarding location, the most important factor to remember is that we are not starting from scratch.  A convention center is not going to revitalize anything on it's own, which hurts the idea of it drawing new development on the stadium's parking lots (if this was the case, LaVilla would be loaded with development today).  We've seen how spreading our investments out does not stimulate synergy.  Why continue to repeat this dead end pattern?  Instead of making it a one trick pony that's doomed for failure due to not solving the issue of complete isolation, it's better to place in an area that helps existing businesses and investments, unless we're willing to subsidize a lot more private development in a market that can't support it.  

[stjr]

Regarding location, the most important factor to remember is that we are not starting from scratch.  A convention center is not going to revitalize anything on it's own, which hurts the idea of it drawing new development on the stadium's parking lots (if this was the case, LaVilla would be loaded with development today).

Lake, you make a good point about the failings of City led development efforts.  And, LaVilla and the existing Convention Center are at the top of the list.  The solution is to have a master plan and a commitment by the City and private interests to build out on Day 1 the minimum threshold of improvement necessary to create a sustainable success without dependency on further investment.  Or, forget going forward.

I think this tenant applies to a new CC wherever it goes.  To get there, the City needs to properly fulfill the role of developer and bring the inter-related parts together reliably.  Making the best decision for the future of the CC should not be held back due to the prior failure of the City to execute properly.  Instead, we should learn from our past mistakes and hold the City accountable for doing it right going forward.  Limiting our possibilities to doing things right in the future due to past incompetency is not an acceptable outcome.  If Jax can't execute this project correctly, let's not even start the process.  And, continue to expect our past frustrations to be perpetuated.

Let's stop lowering the bar and start raising it.

[stjr]

It seems like we have a tendency to focus on what we don't have instead of trying to keep and better utilize what we do have.  Even with advances in technology, it's hard to see trade shows, car shows, competitions, job fairs, etc. disappearing with the use of teleconferencing, the internet and social networking.  There's still something about people to people interaction that technology will never replace.

Assuming the PO goes back to transportation what do you propose we do with our existing events that use this facility?  Should we just let them leave town because having an exhibition hall may not turn a profit?  Also, why should we expect a public exhibition hall to make a direct profit on it's own but not have the same view towards roads, mass transit, parks, public schools and libraries?

Lake, I never said to live without a CC or that it had to make money.  I merely pointed out that we need to do our due diligence in figuring out what we need, that we have a viable business model, and agree on how much we are prepared to suffer financially to enable it to succeed.  My point is to prepare the taxpayers properly and to make sure reality matches our expectations.  Or, risk getting another black eye for a public project.  Don't we have enough of those already?

[Timkin]

lets downsize... move it to the LaVilla Seafood Restaurant that never opened.

.....Im kidding !

[stjr]

By the way, any "ballpark" (no pun intended   ) cost, land excluded, to build a 150,000 to 200,000 net exhibition sf CC?  I am thinking north of $100 million.