Should Jax invest in a new convention center?

[ChriswUfGator]

Oh but as to the hotel with integrated garage, I think de-facto that will wind up becoming the Hyatt won't it? They already have their own parking. I am not sure what the exact solution would be, I am just pretty unhappy about the fact that we're discussing tearing down another 20-story building and replacing it with a parking garage.

That's the exact type of thinking that got downtown to the pitiful state it's in today.

[BridgeTroll]

That's the exact type of thinking that got downtown to the pitiful state it's in today.

Not sure this is true.  Tearing down buildings... and not replacing them... is the biggest part of the problem.  The courthouse is not exactly an architectural marvel nor is it "historic".  I am 100% against tearing building stock down that is unique or historic in nature.

[ChriswUfGator]

That's the exact type of thinking that got downtown to the pitiful state it's in today.

Not sure this is true.  Tearing down buildings... and not replacing them... is the biggest part of the problem.  The courthouse is not exactly an architectural marvel nor is it "historic".  I am 100% against tearing building stock down that is unique or historic in nature.

Historic preservation's a whole nother animal. My issue is pretty simple, we're taking down a high density highrise building to replace it with yet another parking garage. I don't mind the courthouse going, since that is being replaced with the convention center, it's net zero loss. But Tufsu is suggesting tearing down the old city hall and making that another parking garage. That's the part I'm objecting to. We already have way more than enough parking, and that high density building houses hundreds of workers.

[BridgeTroll]

Ah... I see now.  I wonder if that building coud be refurbished into an addition to the Hyatt?

[tufsu1]

chris...I'm suggesting replacing it with another building...most convention center cities have one main hotel and at least one other smallert hotel adjacent....for example, Tampa has the 750+ room Marriott Waterside and the 350+ room Embassy Suites...both are official convention center hotels.

And like many other buildings downtown, I am saying it would have integrated parking...also it would be required to have ground floor commercial space along Bay St.

Also, I would be fine re-using the existing building if that is feasible.

[thelakelander]

618 and the rest of that was all still open a block away

618? You'll need more than that. Like a major hotel for example.

[ChriswUfGator]

chris...I'm suggesting replacing it with another building...most convention center cities have one main hotel and at least one other smallert hotel adjacent....for example, Tampa has the 750+ room Marriott Waterside and the 350+ room Embassy Suites...both are official convention center hotels.

And like many other buildings downtown, I am saying it would have integrated parking...also it would be required to have ground floor commercial space along Bay St.

Also, I would be fine re-using the existing building if that is feasible.

That's not a bad idea and re-use would save money. Sorry for jumping on you there Tufsu, I just started having visions of another high rise biting the dust to make one more parking garage and about got sick to my stomach. It wasn't you, it's just that I'm pretty passionate about not losing what little density is still left down there. So much has been lost.

[thelakelander]

The Omni perhaps?  Its literally four minutes by skyway.

There was 618, Wormans, Edies, The Voodoo Lounge, Tads, Paradome, the OP, and all the restaurants that bounded that end of downtown.  There really were plenty of things to choose from before the dynamite fever set in.

The closest things you mentioned (Worman's, Voodoo Lounge) are nearly a 1/2 mile walk in the sun from the front door of the Prime Osborn.  Hop in your car and you can make it to Regency in the A/C before completing that walk which you will sweat your perm out in the process of doing.  

We both know that there is a difference in something being attached (hotel) and across the street (entertainment/restaurants, etc.) verses those uses being scattered on multiple blocks like someone kicked an ant hill.  One option gives you a "district" just like Five Points or 8th & Main a few years back.  Another gives you what downtown Jacksonville is today, which is a colossal failure.  

When you're "attached" you don't need to take mass transit.  You can enter and leave without ever walking in the elements.  The skyway doesn't even run on the weekends, so that's no good when it comes to a convention facility needing an "attached" adjacent hotel.

It's also important to remember that our local facility competes against those in other cities for the same events.  So you're definitely at risk to lose even your home grown events if all you have to offer them is a second rate facility and environment.

[CS Foltz]

Well if the Prime returns to its designed useage, then something will have to be done and there is only so much useable land either at the old Courthouse location, Annex or even the Ship Yards location! Since City Hall appears to have no clue or any idea at all about this issue, then maybe this would appear to be something to add to the mayoral race platforms? Coming mayor will have their hands full , no matter who it is, but they need to have some idea on what they would like to do or sponsor or propose, IMHO! This is something that needs to be in black and white........no studies........no consulting, just an outright ......well here is what I think we need to do....plain and simple! No matter who it is, they will not be able to please everyone, but they do need to be precise and articulate enough to paint an idea verbally! That is just my take on one of alot of issues that confront us!

[thelakelander]

Its the city, not the facility.  Its not geared for Conventions.  Perhaps if we brought the bordellos back and  re established Houston Street, and then relocated everyone at the municipal stadium.....until then....meh.

That's like saying it's the city, not mass transit. Jacksonville is not geared for mass transit.  It's the city, not education. Jacksonville's kids are not geared to make it through college so why bother.  

Point blank, we have a substandard facility plan and simple.  Even little ole Lakeland has a convention center with a hotel for crying out loud.  We should have had one too but we chose to give the house away to Adams Mark to construct that facility on the other side of downtown.  So in this case, poor planning and implementation is the city.  All the spin in the world won't change this.  

[thelakelander]

Maybe we should look at what makes a great Convention and start there?

I think we start with what our existing long time events need along with what a typical convention center needs to be successful.  Then evaluate what we have and what we need to do to improve that.  Doing that alone will result in a space that is more attractive to additional conventions, trade shows, expos and competitions that currently avoid Jacksonville.  Luckily, we've already done enough studies over the years to identify these issues.  Now we just need to figure out the best way to fund a practical solution that frees up the Prime Osborn to be converted back into a transportation center.

[tufsu1]

Has anyone here ever been to a convention? In a city besides jacksonville?

many times...I have been to at least 10 conferences/conventions in other Florida cities...and around 6 in cities outside FL (San Fran, DC, Philly, and Boston)....plus I've been to car shows at convention centers in Philly, Baltimore, Washington, and Tampa.

I'm also in charge of organizing conferences for my statewide professional organization (usually around 750 people attend).

Based on those experiences, I believe that Jax. can compete w/ other mid-sized cnvention cities....but only if we build a new center closer to the existing urban core.

[thelakelander]

It really doesn't matter what the event "theme" is, as long as it's located in an environment that drives foot traffic and visibility right past the front doors of local restaurants, bars, cultural, retail establishments and gets butts in the local hotel beds.  I'm still waiting for someone to make a case that downtown's retailers would not benefit from an extra hundreds of thousands of potential customers walking past their front doors annually, due to a relocated well integrated convention facility.

Like tufsu1, I been to many conventions, trade shows, sporting events, concerts and expos in several facilities across the country as well for business and pleasure.  In my humble opinion, your argument has as many holes in it as Swiss cheese.  I believe over the last 12 pages, it has been well proven and documented that our center is too small, poorly located, lacks a hotel and completely isolated.  There are countless studies, professionals, event coordinators, and peer city examples out saying one thing verses a personal opinion.  It's also been proven that the Prime Osborn is better off as a transportation center which leads us to two options to truly debate and discuss:

1. Relocate the convention center.

2. Get out of the business and run off the rest of the events it hosts in the process.

Btw, here is a link to the Black Expo website: http://blackexposouth.com/events/jacksonville-fl

"It's a big puzzle, and the facility is just one piece of it," said Kathie Canning, deputy general manager of the Orange County Convention Center in Orlando, which completed its own 950,282-square-foot expansion in 2003. "We compete on destination first. What it typically comes down to is, Is it a place attendees want to come to?"

I also agree with this.   As mentioned the facility requirements (which we don't meet for most) is just one piece of the puzzle.  Destination is another major factor.  Right now, due to poor planning and vision, DT Jax is not a valued destination for many.  However, you build "destination" through connectivity and synergy.  Considering the Prime Osborn is better off as a transportation center, we'll have to address our convention center situation at some point.  Imo, when the issue is addressed, it's better to relocate it in a place that helps the effort to build DT Jax into a vibrant destination by taking advantage of our existing investments and businesses instead of completely abandoning the convention industry.

[stjr]

Stephen, nice use of quote boxes.  Way to go!   

By the way, we might also do well hosting conventions related to:

The military, especially the Navy.
Transportation (railroads, aviation, marine)
Fishing given that we have fresh, brackish, an salt water all here.
Golf with the PGA and Hall of Fame.
Tennis with the ATP.
Medical with Mayo and UF Shands.
Auto as an expansion of the Concours d'elegance weekend.
Mortgage banking which is a major industry here.
Paper and wood products, also big here.
Import/export industry given the port (such as a convention of custom brokers and trade finance).
Ethnic conventions including African American, Middle Eastern, East European, Hispanic, and Asian (or more specifically, Korea, Philippines, China, India, etc.), South American (especially Brazil), Caribbean.
Banking and Finance.
Insurance.
Communications.
New Age industries such as internet, solar, biotech, blogging, social networking, etc.
Aforementioned music such as jazz (with UNF's top jazz program and Jax's history and festival), Southern Rock, country, etc.
Ecotourism industry such as kayaking/canoe, beach related, etc.
Environmental issue related (water management and treatment, clean power generation, etc.)
Collectibles and Hobbies (From coins and stamps to model railroading and railroad memorabilia [for Ock] to photography, scrap booking, etc., etc.)





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[thelakelander]

Lake you are 100 percent wrong on the facility. We fit the size requirements for most conventions, conferences and congresses.

Here's some more proof the validate my position.  What do you have to show that our facility is just fine and should not be relocated (don't forget about the transportation center side of things)?

Jacksonville Business Journal - April 20, 2007
by Rachel Witkowski Staff Writer

JACKSONVILLE -- The Prime F. Osborn III Convention Center's size and distance from a hotel has cost the city's economy more than $48 million this year.

Business groups that had planned to hold conventions at the center in 2007 but decided to go to another market equated to a loss of $48.4 million based on the room-nights they would have generated for the city, according to the Jacksonville & the Beaches Convention and Visitors Bureau. The city has lost nearly $140 million from groups that have left from 2006 to 2008.

The 78,500 square feet of exhibit space at the Prime Osborn is limiting its ability to attract state and national conventions while local events' potential to make money is also being constrained by the building's size.
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html

The Prime Osborn has become more of a civic center because of its size limitations and therefore cannot attract larger regional and national conventions.

The new draft report, compiled by representatives from the transportation, tourism and hotel industries, recommends that a new or expanded convention center can not be built until the city's private and public sectors commit to redeveloping Downtown. This includes the convention center being within three to five blocks of hotels, restaurants and other infrastructure.

That would require a new center or the extension of infrastructure in the La Villa neighborhood that abuts the central business district and includes the Prime Osborn.

The concern with building in La Villa is that the Prime Osborn attracts mostly civic conventions for which attendees commute from nearby and don't need to stay at a hotel. A proposed 400-room hotel built next to the Prime Osborn could not survive in the area unless there was more infrastructure like restaurants, entertainment and transportation for visitors, the infrastructure committee's chairman and Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront General Manager Phil Tufano, said.

The county courthouse and annex area off Bay Street is next to the 966-room Hyatt and includes access to water taxis, which would allow visitors to travel to the Southbank, he said.

Bay Street is going to get additional restaurants and entertainment regardless of whether there is a nearby convention center, said John Reyes, president and CEO of the Jacksonville & the Beaches Convention and Visitors Bureau.

The draft report suggests that a new or expanded convention center should not be constructed until some, if not all, necessary infrastructure is planned or under way.
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/30/story1.html

The subcommittee requested an additional 121,500 square feet of exhibit space if the Prime Osborn were to expand. It now has 78,000 square feet.

The extra space would allow the city to increase its ability to market to convention business from less than 10 percent to 85 percent. But there is still a concern about limited transportation in La Villa.
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/30/story1.html

What lacks is management and a culture for the business of conventions.

Until those are in place, then there will never be a convention industry in jacksonville.

There's already an industry.  Before debating on how to expand it, it makes more sense to figure out how to better benefit from what we already have.

The only thing that we are too small for really is the large culture/lifestyle/interest shows, and we do not have any plan in place to grow those in the way they need to be grown.

So your belief is that we should just focus on the 10% of events we sized for instead of the 85%?
The subcommittee requested an additional 121,500 square feet of exhibit space if the Prime Osborn were to expand. It now has 78,000 square feet.

The extra space would allow the city to increase its ability to market to convention business from less than 10 percent to 85 percent. But there is still a concern about limited transportation in La Villa.
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/30/story1.html

This leaves the smaller associations, professional leagues and business conventions, and our current management of these things a company which basically treats the entire thing as a room for rent in a very busy international hotel..  You can have the room if you specifically ask for it.  But you have to know where it is, and you have to want to stay there first.

Or I can know what I need and book my event in a convention city like Grand Rapids, Mobile, Biloxi or Huntsville instead of Jacksonville because they have better facilities and desired amenities.

I must admit that the research into the actual industry has made me understand our own failure a bit more.  I certainly do not feel it is a pipe dream anymore, but I do think a few homegrown inner circle connections either need to be jettisoned, or we need to radically revise how we approach this industry.

We're on two different planets.  You're trying to recreate the convention industry wheel and all I'm advocating is getting better utilization out of both our convention and transportation investments by placing extra value on the importance of connectivity.