Should Jax invest in a new convention center?

[thelakelander]

huh?

What argument do you think Ive made?

That Jacksonville's Convention business fails mostly because of a lack of dedicated management or creative development?  Well good luck finding swiss holes in that one~

No.  This is the argument you've made.

1. A successful convention center does not need to be adjacent to complementing uses (restuarants, etc.)

2. A successful convention center in Jax does not need to be adjacent to a hotel.

3. Relocating the center won't get us better utilization out of our existing events.

The rest of the stuff is just dancing around these issues.

Its a lot more convincing than any argument involving a hundred million dollar new construction project based on events whose size we cant handle at present and blind trust in the SMG group's dismal track record with the issue.

You're the only one talking about SMG.  Get rid of them for all I care, that's not my argument.  I'm evidently doing a poor job at explaining the importance of connectivity on this issue to better take advantage of what we already have.  As for the investment, I've already stated that a public/private partnership is the way to go.  That should cut our investment well below $100 million.

[Ocklawaha]

We both know that there is a difference in something being attached (hotel) and across the street (entertainment/restaurants, etc.) verses those uses being scattered on multiple blocks like someone kicked an ant hill.  One option gives you a "district" just like Five Points or 8th & Main a few years back.  Another gives you what downtown Jacksonville is today, which is a colossal failure.  

When you're "attached" you don't need to take mass transit.  You can enter and leave without ever walking in the elements.  The skyway doesn't even run on the weekends, so that's no good when it comes to a convention facility needing an "attached" adjacent hotel.

There are other factors at work at the "PO" that haven't even been touched, and some of these will effect the transportation facility as well.

The City has created a horrible desert (My apologies to my place in 29 Palms California)... There not only is a complete lack of hospitality facilities near the place, the surrounding blocks look like an over sized sand filled kitty litter box. Go to any strange large city and tell me you want to walk through 4-5 blocks of absolute desolation, hell Hiroshima had more to offer in 1946.

You also handicap the PO by placing it next to railroad tracks and yards, we ALL know the sort of people that hang out around trains (oop's that would be me!). In Los Angeles my favorite place is under the freeway overpasses. NOT! The hobo jungles are everywhere around the PO and you don't have to be from Jacksonville to figure that out pretty quickly.

Next? Does this city with it's massive "Garden Club" have any clue on how to plant and maintain landscape? I've been around here just shy of 60 years and really don't recall EVER seeing the likes of Nocatee, WGV, St. Augustine, Coral Springs, Lake Buena Vista... etc. Most of our highway's and a great deal of our sidewalks (if there are any) resemble the back lot where Sanford and Son was filmed.

I have been told the Courthouse and Annex is full of asbestos anyway, if that's true it can't be remodeled and needs to be carefully torn down. The site itself lends itself to a streetcar/LRT line running right through the new Convention Center, al la Dallas.

Our day's of attracting CSX's and Fidelity's to our door are over if we don't have the infrastructure for them to host major events in their new home town. Screw the cheerleaders! (UH OH!)  A revitalized riverfront and Riverwalk dotted with attractions would turn such a center into an industrial showplace of choice.

Turn JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL back to it's glory day's.

OCKLAWAHA

[Todd_Parker]

Could someone pass the popcorn?

[thelakelander]

Why arent there small micro conventions being attracted from this basic group of industries some of which jacksonville provides natural advantages with?

I don't have a problem with this line of thinking.  However, this is a separate topic from the facility issue.

I agree with Lake mostly on the issue. I know we both think that more entertainment, dining and accomodations have got to be relocated downtown.

We both definitely agree that the Prime Osborn needs to be converted to a transit use.

But I do not agree that the best use of our riverfront property is a space guaranteed to be empty most of the time.  Unless it overlays a property which guarantees organic daily vibrancy.  I also think that the best place for it is the Municipal Stadium parking lot.

I think that building on the riverfront designs in a cause for neglect and removes vibrancy in the same way that the stadiums do to the east side.

The stadium parking lot is the worse location.  You might as well just stick a larger box on the back of the Prime Osborn since its already there.  Nevertheless, both options would be a disaster since they would undermine other public projects and previous investments.

I feel like we're circling the wagons.  I've already stated how to design a center that gets around the clock use.  Here are some renderings of that concept that Jason did a few years ago.


Public/Private Partnership: Private use on the waterfront and Bay Street with the multi-story convention box in the middle of the site.  The private investment could be used to help offset the public investment's overall cost of building the convention center.

[02roadking]

"But I do not agree that the best use of our riverfront property is a space guaranteed to be empty most of the time.  Unless it overlays a property which guarantees organic daily vibrancy."

Stephen, so what kind of vibrancy will be at the Courthouse area once the new Courthose is built and moved into?

[02roadking]

All I got are Whoppers

[thelakelander]

lol.  Are you serious?

You are referring to a report from the Sub Committee To Come Up With Reasons Why We Need A Bigger Convention Center to prove that we need a bigger convention center?

We also had a committee to come up with reasons why the zoo should be moved downtown.  Guess what its conclusions were?  Strangely, it turned out that downtown is the perfect place to locate a major zoological park.  That is, for everyone but the animals, the facility and the customers.

Its like asking TUFSU whether or not we need some retarded infrastructure project way out in the boonies.  Auto Opinion Sez: YES, Definitely!

Notice that they mention conventions left for other cities, but they did not mention why?  And then simply announced their own foregone conclusions?

We are running into the same blistering reasoning at the other public buildings.  Why isnt the Florida Theatre used?  What about the Times Union Performing Art Center?  Why isnt anything every happening over at the Ritz Theatre?

Lake, its totally the management, not the size.

How about this from the spokesman of an event that left the Prime Osborn?

Fire-Rescue EAST has experienced phenomenal growth since 1994, when the convention had 34 exhibits and 600 attendees. Needing more space, organizers booked other facilities, but watched the Ocean Center expansion closely for the opportunity to return to the area. Today, the event has 250 exhibitors and 8,000 attendees. The Daytona Beach Area Convention and Visitors Bureau estimates the event will fill more than 3,495 room nights and generate an economic impact of more than $2 million.

“We are excited about the opportunity to bring Fire-Rescue EAST to the Ocean Center,” said Jim Wile, executive director of the FFCA. “The Ocean Center expansion provides us with considerably more space than our previous location. Moving our conference and expo here will allow us to provide exhibit space to many vendors we have turned away in the past, and provide more educational opportunities since we will have additional meeting space. Everything is ready to go, now all we need is some of that endless Florida sunshine and we’ll be all set.”

www.oceancenter.com/releases09/0116b09.htm

Here is the CVB's quote about them getting the hell out of the Prime Osborn.

The CVB, which helps bring larger regional, state and national conventions that generate room-nights, most recently lost two of its larger clients for 2009. After 10 years of holding annual events at the Prime Osborn, the state's Fire-Rescue Convention & Exposition and The State Cheer & Dance Championships of Florida are moving to Daytona Beach, taking $3 million in economic impact.

The Florida Fire Chiefs' Association said it needed 100,000 more square feet to clear exhibits from the lobby areas, according to information provided by the CVB. It uses 117,300 square feet at the Prime Osborn.

Gainesville-based American Championships, which operates State Cheer & Dance, said it needed an additional 40,000 square feet to expand the event and have more warm-up space.

The Prime Osborn's size and the cost to transport event attendees to the nearest hotels were the primary reasons for lost business, said Shirley Smith, CVB's vice president of sales.

Both conventions will host their events at Daytona's Ocean Center in 2009, the same year it will open as an expanded convention center with 452,491 square feet of space, nearly double its existing size. The center is offering incentives and promotions for businesses that bring events to Ocean Center within the first year of its reopening, Smith said.

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html?jst=pn_pn_lk

You know I love you like a brother but I'm going to have to take the CVB's, Daytona's and the Fire-Rescue's word on this one.

[thelakelander]

Btw, considering it started downtown, a historic zoo (sort of like the St. Louis Zoo) would have been a nice attraction for the urban core.  It sure beats surface parking lots.

[thelakelander]

We should have gotten Florida Coastal to locate near the courthouse when we had the opportunity. That would have been a complementing use that would have directly activity in that area after 7pm.

[stjr]

I still believe we need a minimum square to rectangular footprint of 6 to 8 acres to accommodate an exhibit hall of 150,000 to 200,000 square feet plus support services and support vehicle parking and access.  The old courthouse site just doesn't cut it.

1 acre = 43,560 square feet...so we would only need 3.5 to 4.5 acres to meet your exhibit hall size...assuming that we build a 2 (or more) story facility w/ meeting rooms, banquest space, and retail on one floor and the exhibit hall on the other.

I believe the best thing to do is build a center on the current courthouse and parking lot blocks....and build the parking garage at the old city hall annex (behind the Hyatt) w/ the ability to construct a building above it.

Based on my Google map measuring, the courthouse/parking block is about 500' x 750' = 375,000 square feet...or 8.5+ acres...and the old city hall annes site is around 380' x 325' = 123,500 square feet...or just under 3 acres.

Tufsu, as Lake noted, Lake and I have already gone around about the (in)adequacy of the courthouse site size and shape so I don't want to repeat all that here.  Let's just say I was unconvinced that the courthouse site would work for the long haul and/or if we are going to really do this right.  Don't get me wrong, I love the site, I just don't think it has the physical capacity to support the building we need.  And, IMHO, it has no substantive capacity to support parking of a large number of vehicles after accounting for a proper CC structure.

I will note, again, that the footprint begins with the size of the exhibit hall, which I believe should be minimally about 200,000 sf.  Add the support spaces for the lobby, ticket/credential desks/windows, concession/souvenir stands, an onsite photo copy/internet/printing facility, restrooms, kitchen, storage, staging, utilities, docks, at least some meeting rooms on the same floor, media spaces, offices for the CC and event floor managers, etc. and you have a pretty good size foot print, probably at least 50% or more over the size of the exhibition hall.  Now, add outside space for access, security perimeters, event vehicle parking, truck unloading, possible outdoor exhibits, an entry plaza, landscaping, outdoor function space, etc. and you have a very large footprint, easily approaching 8 acres plus.

I haven't even factored in a parking garage or future expansion space (so we don't have to start all over again in 10 to 20 years if Jax and/or the CC business grows substantially). [We need to build for success, not failure, or we are doomed to fulfill our own prophecy.]

I am thinking 6 acres (261,360 sf) to 8 acres (348,480 sf) is very reasonable, and, maybe still too conservative.  

By the way, in the stadium/arena district, parking and access is far less of an issue (Can you see 10,000 to 15,000 convention goers driving and/or mixing in with downtown workers and residents, if we rebuild that base sufficiently?  I think given our type of city and location, conventions with large "drive-in" components will be a significant factor for the foreseeable future and handling this will be part of our "appeal"). With a street car line, it will be well connected to Downtown.

And, if we infill with development of the shipyards, a stadium based CC  will be within reasonable walking distance of the East Bay "entertainment district".  Jags fans walk that leg by the thousands for every game already.  I reassert, also, that a stadium site, to be successful, will need contemporaneous construction of an adjacent hotel and eating establishments.  These should be feasible as they will also serve the other venues, and, with the streetcar, Bay Steeet walkways, and riverwalk connections, will be able to bid on downtown visitor business as well.

 

[thelakelander]

^A slightly larger facility helps you accommodate and compete for larger events like this.  Like a longer rail line has the ability to spur more TOD and attract higher ridership than a short one that doesn't go anywhere.  Right now we have a facility that competes against the likes of Mobile, Lakeland and Huntsville, AL.  Maybe we're fine with this and if so, then okay, Jax is what it is.  However, if you're going to invest in a relocated center you might as well build it in a manner to accommodate the growth of existing events.

[thelakelander]

I will note, again, that the footprint begins with the size of the exhibit hall, which I believe should be minimally about 200,000 sf.  Add the support spaces for the lobby, ticket/credential desks/windows, concession/souvenir stands, an onsite photo copy/internet/printing facility, restrooms, kitchen, storage, staging, utilities, docks, at least some meeting rooms on the same floor, media spaces, offices for the CC and event floor managers, etc. and you have a pretty good size foot print, probably at least 50% or more over the size of the exhibition hall.  Now, add outside space for access, security perimeters, event vehicle parking, truck unloading, possible outdoor exhibits, an entry plaza, landscaping, outdoor function space, etc. and you have a very large footprint, easily approaching 8 acres plus.

Only if one thinks horizontal.

I haven't even factored in a parking garage or future expansion space (so we don't have to start all over again in 10 to 20 years if Jax and/or the CC business grows substantially). [We need to build for success, not failure, or we are doomed to fulfill our own prophecy.]

Any idea of the growth timeline.  From the way things are going, we won't even have a 200,000 square exhibition hall in 10 years.  Also, you can follow Orlando's path of building a completely separate facility across the street with the JSO/jail site, assuming they're relocated at some point in the distant future.

By the way, in the stadium/arena district, parking and access is far less of an issue (Can you see 10,000 to 15,000 convention goers driving and/or mixing in with downtown workers and residents, if we rebuild that base sufficiently?

Too many people on downtown's streets would be a great problem to have.  We would then be like Toronto.

And, if we infill with development of the shipyards, a stadium based CC  will be within reasonable walking distance of the East Bay "entertainment district".  Jags fans walk that leg by the thousands for every game already.  I reassert, also, that a stadium site, to be successful, will need contemporaneous construction of an adjacent hotel and eating establishments.  These should be feasible as they will also serve the other venues, and, with the streetcar, Bay Steeet walkways, and riverwalk connections, will be able to bid on downtown visitor business as well.

Realistically, this description is like a 50 year plan.  For example, there has been talk of infilling the Shipyards site for nearly 20 years now.  Not to mention, it would cost billions to fund all of these ideas assuming downtown's shrinking market grew to support them over that time period.
 

[thelakelander]

^A slightly larger facility helps you accommodate and compete for larger events like this.  Like a longer rail line has the ability to spur more TOD and attract higher ridership than a short one that doesn't go anywhere.  Right now we have a facility that competes against the likes of Mobile, Lakeland and Huntsville, AL.  Maybe we're fine with this and if so, then okay, Jax is what it is.  However, if you're going to invest in a relocated center you might as well build it in a manner to accommodate the growth of existing events.

I agree completely with this assessment, but without a waterchange in how we approach this industry, if we cant fill a small one, we are not going to fill a bigger one.

Now we're back to where we started.  Management issues aside, it would be easier to fill a small one if it had complementing uses like a convention center hotel attached, restaurants and retail within immediate walking distance.  When you have similar sized and smaller facilities in other cities that offer these basic convention amenities, even Pat Riley would have a hard time convincing the best conventions in the industry to jump ship and relocate to Jacksonville.

[Ocklawaha]

Watch these video's and THINK going from the end of Independence Drive toward Liberty Street at the new riverfront convention center. One wonders if we have that much creativity but wouldn't this be a coup??

http://www.youtube.com/v/gW7icqsz6eQ&hl=en_US&fs=1?color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"
http://www.youtube.com/v/8Gdqlj4mgfI&hl=en_US&fs=1?color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"
http://www.youtube.com/v/beUOZ9lGUPo&hl=en_US&fs=1?color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"

Dallas does it, why not Jacksonville?

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I must say I love what DART has been able to accomplish in a relatively short time period.  I used that same DART line to access a convention I attended in Dallas a couple of years ago.  Hopefully, we can get around to implementing other's successful strategies on our own landscape.