Should Jax invest in a new convention center?

[Timkin]

Well at least my suggestion of replacing DCSB wasnt all that far off , according to the list.

But hey.. it probably will end up on the Courthouse site ...if it happens   Fine w me.. makes no matter either way.

[Timkin]

But for that matter,they could tear the Landing down and put it there. ... I could care less about the landing anyway.

[stjr]

Thanks again, Lunican.  Well, they were smelling the coffee.  I didn't see this report, but we both had parking lot J on our short list.  I also previously suggested the alternate site of the Shipyards.

Now, we just need to see how professional the analysis was and what the explanation is to support their conclusion.  Is the report online?  If not, maybe MJ could do an article on it and put it on our "dartboard" for discussion.

[thelakelander]

But for that matter,they could tear the Landing down and put it there. ... I could care less about the landing anyway.

If money is not an object and existing infrastructure is worth ignoring, we should go head and dust off some of Jack Diamond's old ideas like the Downtown Realm and the original skyway plans.  However, its better to push for affordable solutions that help free up cash for other projects like historic preservation.

[thelakelander]

Thanks again, Lunican.  Well, they were smelling the coffee.  I didn't see this report, but we both had parking lot J on our short list.  I also previously suggested the alternate site of the Shipyards.

Now, we just need to see how professional the analysis was and what the explanation is to support their conclusion.  Is the report online?  If not, maybe MJ could do an article on it and put it on our "dartboard" for discussion.

I'll see what I can dig up from that time after I get some sleep.  We had some pretty live debates when all of this was going down.

[stjr]

Lake, I won't bother to quote-quote-quote ourselves again   so just add the comments below:

I suggested Parking Lot J fronting Bay Street/Gator Bowl Blvd.  It's news to me that that has anything to do with the Fairgrounds.  Are you misunderstanding my site choice?

And, when you said "combine facilities" with the Hyatt, I took it you meant using their meeting rooms and ball room.  Not bedrooms!   Give me a little credit here.

OK, one quote because we almost agree!

Lastly, Lake, has anyone considered what a stadium district hotel and entertainment district would do to ALSO increase bookings for the arena, fairgrounds, stadium, ball park, and Metro park.  That impact could multiply several times the impact alone of the CC.  Doubt it, however it's worth looking at.

[thelakelander]

For some reason, I was thinking about another location.  Looking at an aerial, Parking Lot J isn't much larger than the courthouse site.  I assume you would stick a hotel on Parking Lot M?  Anyway, speaking of recreational space, Parking Lot J would be an ideal of extension of Metropolitan Park.  Seriously, you could probably replace all the asphalt lots around the stadium with grass and have them being used for recreational purposes when major events aren't beind held, freeing up the Shipyards and JEA properties for a mix of uses.

Btw, on that last quote, we actually agreed.  My "doubt it" was in response the question of "has anyone considered....."

[stjr]

Lake, the more I think about it, the more I think a creative and competent developer (that may, unfortunately, likely excludes the City) might be able to rally private hotel and entertainment investors around the stadium district if the city committed the CC and the streetcar investments.  If this was proved along with the notion that bookings would rise for the other venues with such private/public investment, I would find it hard to believe our City fathers would not seriously reconsider their current desire for the courthouse site.

The City should do what they just did with Hillwood at Cecil Field and task a creative and proven developer to see if this is a viable option.  That step would go a long way toward satisfying my own ability to validate one site over the other.

[thelakelander]

I think you're really underestimating the fact that convention centers aren't profit makers, the importance of building pedestrian synergy in the heart of the downtown core and the ability of our market to support another +500 room hotel in downtown.  The Hillwood thing is a major subsidy but at least we're not already subsidizing a similar endeavor to compete against it.  In the end, subsidizing the things we already subsidize to compete against our other investments a mile down the street would be bad business.  We'd literally be repeating many of the same mistakes we originally made with the Prime Osborn.

[thelakelander]

Here is a link the 2007 convention center study summary but it really doesn't go into the process that eliminated the locations outside of the Prime Osborn and courthouse sites:

http://www.jcci.org/jcciwebsite/documents/07%20Convention%20Center.pdf

[BridgeTroll]

The stadium idea makes no sense to me.  Having been to a few conventions myself... It is all about the destination.  Sure the vendors and such need space and facilities but the attendees want things to do after the day is over.  Restaurants, bars, clubs, shopping, sight seeing.  There is NOTHING at the stadium area.  You may as well keep the sight at the P.O. area.

Small conventions are held at the Hyatt fairly often.  Take a seat on the Riverwalk between Hyatt and the Landing during lunchtime... there is a steady parade of customers streaming back and forth to the landing.  Same holds true for the evenings.

Putting a convention center near the stadium and "hoping" for infill and walkability is part of what keeps the P.O. from being a decent center.

Location, location, location...

[tufsu1]

Lake, I made it clear I think all this goes on the ground floor.  You can put more meeting rooms/function spaces on an upper floor all you like.  I am essentially putting just the exhibit all and its support spaces on the ground floor.  I sure would like to see you put the truck dock on the third floor of a CC! 

well Philly has theirs on the second floor....w/ a ramp

I showed that the courthouse/garage site is 375,000sf or 8+ acres....so even your single floor concept fits

[vicupstate]

BridgeTroll, I couldn't have said it any better.  

My all-time favorite place to put the CC would be the existing Police HQ/Jail site.   However, it will be a few decades before that site would be available, if then.  Then again, this is Jax we are talking about so it might be that long before a new convention center is actually on the table.

The Stadium district is not a viable option IMO.

[stjr]

The stadium idea makes no sense to me. ... There is NOTHING at the stadium area.  

BridgeTroll, you are correct if you look at what is there presently.  My point is "what it could be", not what it is.  Many entertainment districts and successful developments were "created" by shrewd developers/city planners/visionaries, not organically grown.  Orlando built its convention center in the middle of cow pastures.  But, they had a well organized master plan, stuck to it, and created a whole new "city" around their convention center.  Jax usually has lousy plans, if any, and never sticks to them.

Savannah built its convention center on an island in the river.  How much more disconnected can you get than that.  You have to take a ferry to get to their entertainment district.  Yet, it appears to be doing adequately well.  I gather they didn't have the right space within their protected historic district and creatively thought outside the box.

It takes vision to see something that doesn't yet exists but may yet be a far better solution.  I am merely suggesting we do more of this exercise and not just default to the site that seems most ready to go today, but may not stand the test of time tomorrow.  We already did that with the PO.

[stjr]

well Philly has theirs on the second floor....w/ a ramp

I showed that the courthouse/garage site is 375,000sf or 8+ acres....so even your single floor concept fits

Tufsu, I don't care what floor a 200,000 sf exhibition hall is on.  It still translates into the footprint underpinning it.  By the way, you will need a footprint space for that ramp climbing 15 to 20+ feet up to the second floor so where are the space savings from that?  I sure wouldn't put a kitchen on a different floor from the main hall.  I have never seen that work well. 

Overall, I laid out my logic for the required space in my example posted.  If you want to disagree, that's your privilege.  But, I would want to see detailed blueprints before I was convinced it all fits in AND meets the requirements for a first class facility today AND tomorrow.  You haven't shown me any substantial change that reduces the combined internal/external footprint I estimated.

My worst fear is we downsize the facility to fit the courthouse site, and, before long, we are kicking ourselves again for building too small or not leaving adequate space to expand/grow.  We would be fools of the century.  I just assume do without a CC than do it wrong again.