Should Jax invest in a new convention center?

[BridgeTroll]

I understand stjr.  My opposition to the plan you suggest is based on our failure to "create" a district around the PO.  We created a convention center with none of the attractions or amenities that convention goers desire and made little to no effort to create them.  I think we would be doing the EXACT same thing by trying to "create" a walkable fun entertainment/shopping/restaurant/nightclub district where one does not currently exist.  It would be doomed to failure right from the start.

The courthouse site has existing lodging... an embryonic entertainment district... the Landing and perhaps someday... shopping.  There are "things" there...  There is a "there" there...

[stjr]

I understand stjr.  My opposition to the plan you suggest is based on our failure to "create" a district around the PO.

Bridge, we agree.  If you read up the thread, you will see I stated a prerequisite for my suggestion is that a sustainable piece of the development must be made upfront/at the outset (not in stages later) for it to work.  This wasn't done with PO or we might not be having this conversation.

I also said we should not limit our future by our past failure to perform.  If, the stadium district were to offer a superior long term solution, then we must insist that its execution be done nothing less than first class.  Or, I agree, why bother.

Even at the courthouse, I think you will face some of these same issues, as it will take a real effort to make that site what I think it needs to be - if it can be done at all.

[vicupstate]

stjr, you can't just 'build it and they will come'.  Restaurants and bars require a STEADY (more or less daily) stream of customers.  A Stadium CC district would have only it's own conventions to sustain it.  A center would  need some time to attract a large volume of conventions.  How would the restaurants and bars sustain themselves in the meantime?

Orlando is not a apples to apples comparison because Jax will never have that level of Convention business.  Nashville, Indy, Charlotte are the role models not Vegas or Orlando.

Bay St. already has a following among locals, so it already has a foundation to build upon.  Ditto with the Landing, albeit it still struggles.    The Stadium district has no foundation to augment the convention business.  The Arena/Ball Stadium were built too isolated from everything else to create sufficient demand for restaurants, bars, etc.  Amsterdam Sky Cafe had that market to itself and could not make a go of it.

In order for the courthouse site to be 'outgrown', it has to first be a success.  At least that means success is assured before size is an issue again.     

[tufsu1]

well Philly has theirs on the second floor....w/ a ramp

I showed that the courthouse/garage site is 375,000sf or 8+ acres....so even your single floor concept fits

Tufsu, I don't care what floor a 200,000 sf exhibition hall is on.  It still translates into the footprint underpinning it.  By the way, you will need a footprint space for that ramp climbing 15 to 20+ feet up to the second floor so where are the space savings from that?  I sure wouldn't put a kitchen on a different floor from the main hall.  I have never seen that work well.  

fine...I'm working with your own stated requiremnents....you said:

1. 200,000 sf for exhibit space
2. at least another 100,000 for meeting rooms/galleries/etc.
3. All of that on one level
4. 6-8 acres needed

I've shown that the current courthouse/parking lot block is over 8 acres with as much as 375,000 sf

Future growth can be accomodated by going up, getting the old city hall annex next door, or just using meeting space in the Hyatt.

What am I missing?

[CS Foltz]

OK .....convince me tufsu! I concur with stjr's outline on the basic requirements and makes alot of sense to me! The peripheral area's would have to be developed at around the same time since it would all have to be self sustaining ......as in no convention events happening so any business that set up shop is on its own! City Hall does not seem to be interested, if they are no one has said squat, so that leaves private enterprise! This would take "Incentives" in order for someone to consider the idea as well as the location! With the Budget showing a short fall of $58 Million Dollars, any administration would be stretched to provide anything! Municipal Bonds might be an option if the return rate was above the 1.5% currently touted by most lending institutions and Bank of Jacksonville (IE 11E & the Carling and whatever the third one that got financed by Vescor at such a favorable rate it was ridiculous) is running out of money! Developers will more than likely be forced to foot the majority of cost but  offset with some sort of incentives in order to attract those who could afford the bill!

[tufsu1]

OK .....convince me tufsu! I concur with stjr's outline on the basic requirements and makes alot of sense to me! The peripheral area's would have to be developed at around the same time since it would all have to be self sustaining ......as in no convention events happening so any business that set up shop is on its own!

which is exactly why the courthouse site makes the most sense...there already are peripheral areas...it is near the Landing, which has been surviving for 20+ years...it is adjacent to the Hyatt, which has been here for 10 years, and is along the burgeoning Bay Street area entertainment district.

[stjr]

fine...I'm working with your own stated requiremnents....you said:

1. 200,000 sf for exhibit space
2. at least another 100,000 for meeting rooms/galleries/etc.
3. All of that on one level
4. 6-8 acres needed

I've shown that the current courthouse/parking lot block is over 8 acres with as much as 375,000 sf

Future growth can be accomodated by going up, getting the old city hall annex next door, or just using meeting space in the Hyatt.

What am I missing?

The whole outside improvements, Tufsu.  Go back and check my list that included truck access, security perimeter, outdoor staging/assembly, parking for event vehicles and managers, an outdoor entry plaza, landscaping, an outdoor venue for entertaining, etc.  And, I mentioned consideration of a parking garage (at least a 1,000 cars I would think, maybe far more) and future expansions.

I don't know many that complain they have too much land, just too little.  Plan ahead, way ahead!

[stjr]

stjr, you can't just 'build it and they will come'.  Restaurants and bars require a STEADY (more or less daily) stream of customers.  A Stadium CC district would have only it's own conventions to sustain it.  A center would  need some time to attract a large volume of conventions.  How would the restaurants and bars sustain themselves in the meantime?

Did you consider that the stadium district is a near desert for entertainment currently and that could work to its advantage.  Aside from events at one of the many venues in the area, establishments here should be able to attract business from the port all the way down Talleyrand.  And, with the Matthews and Hart bridges landing in the vicinity, there are more opportunities to attract Arlington and Southside residents.  I do believe there also happen to be a number of residents in the area.  And, I wouldn't underestimate its ability to pull from downtown, especially if the parking is free! 

And, as I mentioned to Lake, we should consider that a stadium area CC with hotels and entertainment may further enhance bookings at the other venues.  Someone needs to study that synergy!

Orlando is not a apples to apples comparison because Jax will never have that level of Convention business.  Nashville, Indy, Charlotte are the role models not Vegas or Orlando.

That wasn't my point.  It was that Orlando took nothing and made a great big something out of it.  It can be done when executed well.  Our soft underbelly is very poor executions on top of projects lacking vision and creativity.  Why are we surprised by our disappointments?

Bay St. already has a following among locals, so it already has a foundation to build upon.  Ditto with the Landing, albeit it still struggles.    The Stadium district has no foundation to augment the convention business.  The Arena/Ball Stadium were built too isolated from everything else to create sufficient demand for restaurants, bars, etc.  Amsterdam Sky Cafe had that market to itself and could not make a go of it.

See above comments. How is City Hall Pub doing in Amersterdam's place?  Looked packed on Friday night when I drove by.  Also, can you tell me how many establishments are on East Bay Street and how long they have each been there?  I don't think there is enough there for a long enough time to bet our $100 million CC on.  The tail wagging the dog.  Don't forget I would insist on the Bay Street streetcar as integral to a stadium area CC.

In order for the courthouse site to be 'outgrown', it has to first be a success.  At least that means success is assured before size is an issue again.     

Well, I would guess a new center will be a success sooner than later if it will ever succeed.  If success comes early, we will find ourselves shortly with another undersized center.  You can explain that to the taxpayers.   An additional expansion footprint could also be converted to other uses not anticipated upon construction.  The world is always changing and having some flexible real estate is invaluable.  Who would have dreamed 20 years ago that indoor malls would be passe and outdoor malls in vogue? 

[thelakelander]

OK .....convince me tufsu! I concur with stjr's outline on the basic requirements and makes alot of sense to me! The peripheral area's would have to be developed at around the same time since it would all have to be self sustaining ......as in no convention events happening so any business that set up shop is on its own!

which is exactly why the courthouse site makes the most sense...there already are peripheral areas...it is near the Landing, which has been surviving for 20+ years...it is adjacent to the Hyatt, which has been here for 10 years, and is along the burgeoning Bay Street area entertainment district.

^All public subsidized investments!  Anything subsidized a mile away will only compete against current subsidies instead of building on them.  Also, here are a few things to clear up just in case there's some confusion.

1. Orlando's convention center was not built in the middle of nowhere.  I-Drive to the north and its initial line of hotels opened in the 1970s.  Immediately to the south of the Beeline, SeaWorld opened its doors in 1973.  So while the actual convention center site may have been a cow pasture when it opened in 1983, there was significant tourist oriented development in the area (not even counting Disney).

2. Savannah's convention center isn't isolated either.  Its a water taxi ride away from the heart of their historic district and clearly visible from the historic riverfront.  It's location would be the same as a convention center placed at Friendship Fountain would be in relation to the Landing.  


Savannah's convention center as seen from the historic district's riverfront.

[Timkin]

That is really nice!  That would not look shabby as a replacement to the Courthouse.

[thelakelander]

fine...I'm working with your own stated requiremnents....you said:

1. 200,000 sf for exhibit space
2. at least another 100,000 for meeting rooms/galleries/etc.
3. All of that on one level
4. 6-8 acres needed

I've shown that the current courthouse/parking lot block is over 8 acres with as much as 375,000 sf

Future growth can be accomodated by going up, getting the old city hall annex next door, or just using meeting space in the Hyatt.

What am I missing?

The whole outside improvements, Tufsu.  Go back and check my list that included truck access, security perimeter, outdoor staging/assembly, parking for event vehicles and managers, an outdoor entry plaza, landscaping, an outdoor venue for entertaining, etc.  And, I mentioned consideration of a parking garage (at least a 1,000 cars I would think, maybe far more) and future expansions.

I don't know many that complain they have too much land, just too little.  Plan ahead, way ahead!

The 2007 study claims the exhibition hall needs to be at least 125,000 square feet.  If this is true, a center with a 200,000 square foot exhibition hall would be considered planning ahead.  Assuming the courthouse site can possibly accommodate up to 375,000 square feet of exhibit space (not even including the Hyatt's meeting spaces), it should be able future growth needs for decades.  That type of timeline opens up the possibility of future expansion on the JSO/jail property if desired by the community.  As for the support uses (ex. parking, loading docks/ramps, lobbies, etc.), a vertical center allows you to fit those things in as well.  There are several examples of vertical urban convention centers across the country to indicate that this type of design is a viable solution for a pedestrian friendly environment.


A sketch of Raleigh's recently completed "vertical" downtown convention center.

[stjr]

Lake, check back.  I took the 200,000 sf number from the CC committee report or T-U article about it posted somewhere in this thread I believe.  As I recall, what the report said was that the new CC needed to be about 125,000 sf LARGER than the 75,000 +/- PO.  I actually was thinking a total of 150,000 (about double the PO) before I read that this is what they wanted.

By the way, the quote below is from a MJ article on the CC in January, 2009, and calls for 250,000 sf!

With 78,500sf of exhibit space, the Prime Osborn is large enough for just 5% of all conventions in the United States. Studies show that increasing the square footage to 250,000 sf would increase that figure to roughly 60%, thus giving the city a realistic chance to complete in this convention business.

And, this from a T-U article in 2006:

John Reyes, president of the CVB, said the bureau's priority is to make the best use of the facilities the city already has. When it comes to the bottom line, any plans for a convention center must include at least 200,000 square feet of contiguous exhibit space (the Prime Osborn has 78,540) and a hotel within walking distance.

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/081706/met_4470314.shtml

[thelakelander]

Even at 200,000 square feet, a site that could accommodate up to 375,000sf of exhibition space (not including the Hyatt's existing square footage) would still be feasible for a few decades.  In the case additional square feet is needed after 2025/30 the JSO/jail site makes a pretty good location for an Orlando style expansion of exhibition space.

[samiam]

If we do invest in a new convention center it should be a nautical/historic theme and have the ability for a Cruise ship to moor up to it.Another thing that is needed are floating docks along the water in front of the landing It would bring a complete different crowd downtown. Boat rats are great  
We are the river city after all lets inbrace it have places for boats of all sizes, be it a 10 foot Peroo to a 100ft off shore racer.I have tryed to tie up there and it just not worth the trouble.

[tufsu1]

fine...I'm working with your own stated requiremnents....you said:

1. 200,000 sf for exhibit space
2. at least another 100,000 for meeting rooms/galleries/etc.
3. All of that on one level
4. 6-8 acres needed

I've shown that the current courthouse/parking lot block is over 8 acres with as much as 375,000 sf

Future growth can be accomodated by going up, getting the old city hall annex next door, or just using meeting space in the Hyatt.

What am I missing?

The whole outside improvements, Tufsu.  Go back and check my list that included truck access, security perimeter, outdoor staging/assembly, parking for event vehicles and managers, an outdoor entry plaza, landscaping, an outdoor venue for entertaining, etc.  And, I mentioned consideration of a parking garage (at least a 1,000 cars I would think, maybe far more) and future expansions.

I don't know many that complain they have too much land, just too little.  Plan ahead, way ahead!

well considering the City will also be vacating the adjacent city hall annex, there's another 125,000+ square foot site available....plenty of room for parking, a public plaza, etc...and as has been noted before, convention centers can be built in an L-shape...check out Philly for example