Should Jax invest in a new convention center?

[Ocklawaha]

Every city is smaller then us, EXCEPT IN BRAIN CAPACITY!

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

So you want to first tear down the current Jail, then pay to have a convention center built there. THEN you have to pay to build a new jail since you torn down the old one. Though Cecil might be an good place to relocate the jail... 20 minutes from my house.

No.  I would advocate not touching the jail and putting the convention center on the current courthouse site.  Decades from now when the jail needs to upgraded, expanded or replaced, that site may be a viable location for future "massive" convention center expansion (assuming we need to go that route decades from now).

[Ocklawaha]

Move the damn Jail to the middle of the Okefenokee or out on one of the islands in the river, bet that would discourage leaks.

Really though, get it the hell out of what should be some of the most expensive real estate in Florida. Sure would make a great location for a nice hotel and the start of a Hogan's Creek walk similar to San Antonio's or OKC.




OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I decided to start playing around with scaled aerials of Jax and Savannah to compare head to head.  

Aerial 1: DT Jacksonville


Red = complementing retail, restaurants & entertainment
Green = Convention center hotel
Orange = Debated convention center sites in this thread

Aerial 2: DT Savannah

Red = complementing retail, restaurants & entertainment
Green = Convention center hotel
Orange = Savannah convention center

Then I decided to take Savannah's convention center and drop it on Jax aerials at the same scale.

Aerial 3: Jacksonville - Current county courthouse site with Savannah's center overlayed on it.


Aerial 4: Jacksonville - Current courthouse site along with JSO/jail site.


Aerial 5: Jacksonville - Stadium parking lot J site with Savannah convention center on it.

About the Savannah International Trade and Convention Center

A superbly functional, architecturally stunning 330,000 sq. ft gleaming waterfront complex on the historic Savannah River features 100,000 sq. ft. of divisible exhibit space, 50,000 sq. ft. of prime meeting space, including 13 meeting rooms, four executive board rooms, a 25,000 sq. ft. Grand Ballroom, and a state-of-art 367 seat auditorium.

Overlooking Savannah’s world-renowned Riverfront and landmark Historic District, the Savannah International Trade & Convention Center is adjacent to the Westin Savannah Harbor Golf Resort & Spa. And just a two-minute water ferry ride away, adorns the Hyatt Regency, Savannah Marriott Riverfront, Hilton Savannah Desoto accompanied by charming inns and complimentary medium-sized hotel chains within the Historic Meetings District.

As a SMG managed facility, you have our pledge of personal service, professionalism and performance. Headquartered in Philadelphia, SMG is the leading professional facility management company with over 200 venues worldwide. For additional company information, visit www.smgworld.com.

https://www.savtcc.com/savtcc/2/

The aerials reveal many things.

1. Parking Lot J may be smaller in area than the county courthouse/annex property.

2. Horizontal expansion on parking lot J is limited unless we relocate spaces like the Veteran's Memorial Wall.

3. Parking Lot J is limited in horizontal expansion and would still need a major hotel to be subsidized to open next door.  Hyatt and Bay Street's entertainment districts fit like a glove with the courthouse site.

4. A convention center at the stadium would require parking decks to built to replace current parking facilities.

5. Considering the size of both lots, an urban vertical plan would be needed for both.

6. Despite being across the river, Savannah's convention center is visible and a lot closer to the historic riverfront than parking lot J is to the Northbank core.

7. The city hall annex building could probably be converted into a mix of uses (including additional hotel space) if needed or demolished and replaced with something new.  It really presents us with a ton of opportunities for reuse.

8. Going vertical, you could get all the ample space a convention center would need at both sites.

9. Savannah's convention center totals 330,000 square feet on one level.  Thus a two story center with similar footprints on the Jax sites would total 660,000 square feet with around 300,000 square feet of exhibition space on the second level.

10. With a vertical center, parking could be accommodated on the center's roof or the first floor (buffered from the streets with retail/cultural/entertainment/main entrances, etc.), making a center three stories.

[Timkin]

We could Move the Jail to the old JEA building .. jk

[Mattius92]

Love the aerials Lake!

When I was looking over these I noticed that big empty parcel that used to be the generating station. That place should be considered as a site I believe. However it does have problems, but it has ample room, and is close to the skyway and a hotel. The retail isn't there though, but it could come.

[Timkin]

If I am understanding Lake's plan, he wants to locate it on the North bank to as to connect the destinations along that side.. I suggested the DCSB area..close to where you are speaking of , Mattius...

[Mattius92]

That site should really be developed into a multi-use convention center site, complete with an onsite hotel, retail and more, and a connection to the skyway so people can get to the Northbank from there.

[thelakelander]

The JEA property on the Southbank presents the same problems that plagues the Prime Osborn and Stadium sites.  No attached hotel and not within walking distance of anything without major upgrades and public infrastructure investments along Prudential Drive and through the DCSB's property. 

You're literally locked into investing in a center and hoping that if you build it they (the other uses) will come.  The Prime Osborn has been there for 25 years and "they still have not come."  Going with the county courthouse site, you're building it where "they are already at."

[stjr]

Lake, good work on the pix.  You have to say the Savannah CC is a very tight fit (it appeasr to even be slightly oversized) for the courthouse site.  And, remember the building alone does not make the CC.  You still need some external space for support and access.  Nothing left on this site for that it appears.

At Lot J, there immediately appears to be more breathing room. And, like the courthouse, Lot J has surrounding property for additional use.  Quite a bit more.  The Pepsi zone in front of the stadium would make a great spot for a hotel or garage.  The retention pond could be redeveloped after re-engineering the guy wires for the TV tower.  The parking lots (Lots M, N, etc.) to the north could be used for hotel/entertainment  or rolled up into parking garages freeing up much more space.  Bottom line, there is lots of open space around lot J and it adds up to much more than what is around the courthouse.  Any garages built could be lined with street level retail.  The Pepsi zone could even be moved to a garage roof top with an aerial connection to the stadium's mid-deck.  And, the CC and/or hotel(s) here could be built above (or below) parking just as you suggested at the courthouse site.  Lots of possibilities if we get creative.

Bottom line, is, which site gives us the most physical flexibility?  Lot J is still tops on my list.

[Mattius92]

The Lot J idea is great, as long as there is a street rail line or an extension of the Skyway to connect it. However there is no on-site hotel.

[Ocklawaha]

Then Sometime in the not too distant future, the conventioneers gather at lot J and plan their day accordingly...

http://www.youtube.com/v/MGTWmrnPdgk&hl=en_US&fs=1?color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca>

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Lake, good work on the pix.  You have to say the Savannah CC is a very tight fit (it appeasr to even be slightly oversized) for the courthouse site.  And, remember the building alone does not make the CC.  You still need some external space for support and access.  Nothing left on this site for that it appears.

The Savannah center is on a single floor.  I've always stated that the courthouse site would need an urban center that is at least two or three stories.  Nevertheless, the entire Savannah site can fit on the courthouse site and you still have the city hall annex building block to work with.

At Lot J, there immediately appears to be more breathing room. And, like the courthouse, Lot J has surrounding property for additional use.  Quite a bit more.  The Pepsi zone in front of the stadium would make a great spot for a hotel or garage.  The retention pond could be redeveloped after re-engineering the guy wires for the TV tower.  The parking lots (Lots M, N, etc.) to the north could be used for hotel/entertainment  or rolled up into parking garages freeing up much more space.  Bottom line, there is lots of open space around lot J and it adds up to much more than what is around the courthouse.  Any garages built could be lined with street level retail.  The Pepsi zone could even be moved to a garage roof top with an aerial connection to the stadium's mid-deck.  And, the CC and/or hotel(s) here could be built above (or below) parking just as you suggested at the courthouse site.  Lots of possibilities if we get creative.

Everything you've stated would cost us hundreds of millions more to subsidize and compete against the Northbank core that we've already subsidized.  It does not make fiscal sense to to that, especially considering that by doubling up, you're essentially creating an unsustainable environment for both since the market can't support them.  

Bottom line, is, which site gives us the most physical flexibility?  Lot J is still tops on my list.[/b]

Its not about which site gives us flexibility.  If that were the case, it would make sense to go for the JEA site or something near Cecil or SJTC.  It's also about creating a destination, affordability, taking advantage of what we already have and being practical.  We've already been down the road of if we build it they will come and 25 years later, we're still waiting for them to come.  It's time to try something different that has appeared to be successful in many of the places we compete against.  Let's not try and recreate the wheel when there's no reason for us too.

[billy]

The model for development around the sports complex should be Wrigleyville, not Camden Yards.
Consideration should also be given to what the convention industry when you factor in sustainability and the internet. That being said, there is something to be said for going somewhere and kicking the tires of whatever big ass machine someone is showing. Commodore Point and the  Ford Assembly
Plant  properties have a lot of land. The Ford Plant has 163,000 SF, most of it in one glorious space.What if you had a green daylit convention center for Phase One? Extend the Skyway, build a
hotel between Everbank Stadium and the convention center, start opening bars and restaurants on Phillip Randolph. I left out the high speed rail/multimodal.

Amazing what that first cup of coffee will do.

[tufsu1]

Eminent domain in Jax isn't going to be too popular (or, likely, cost effective).  Also, with a CC on the river, expansion options are cut in half.  And, would you have them close Bay Street to expand into the jail footprint?  Running the street under the CC would be a security nightmare in today's world.  

well Philly did it in 1994 with 12th Street....and just did it again with 13th Street....and Orlando has 2 separate buildings, on either side of I-Drive.

Thst said, all we would need is a skybridge that goes diagonally across the intersection of Bay/Liberty.

One question about the stadium site though....if the convention center went down by the stadium, where would you put the replacement parking needed for sporting events?

Remember what happened a few years ago when the Fair was held at the same time as FL-GA./...the City has vowed that won't happen again.