Should Jax invest in a new convention center?

[thelakelander]

Fair points, stjr.  As for costs, Biloxi just completed a 200,000 square foot addition to the Mississippi Gulf Coast Convention Center.  It ended up costing them $80 million, which was significantly more than original estimates of $57 million.  Excluding land, demolition costs, etc. something around the $100 million range is probably realistic.

BILOXI, MS (WLOX) - It took almost three years, and $80 million.  Now the vision of an expanded coliseum and convention center is reality.  From 180,000 square feet to more than 400,000, the new expansion is big and beautiful.

Paula April is the marketing director for the complex.  She is busy these days, but wants to be even busier.

"Quite naturally, if you have hotel then you can go to the next level and book even more business and that's what we're trying to do is extend our market out so that we can get absolutely everything that's due us."

Before Katrina, there were motels near the coliseum, but the storm took care of that, leaving nothing but empty space.  Now there are five potential sites that could be used for a hotel. And not just any hotel, said Coliseum Director Bill Holmes.  

"If a developer were to select a site here on the grounds, we would expect that it would be a 400 to 500 room hotel and that it would be a major convention center flag, and we wouldn't accept anything less."

While business has been brisk at the coast coliseum and convention center over the years, and has always been a fairly easy sell as well, Holmes said the job would be much easier with a hotel on premises.  

"Having a hotel on the property would allow us to compete harder with some of the bigger cities like Atlanta and Houston."

Holmes said he met with two high powered developers last week with deep enough pockets to complete a deal.  If and when that happens, Holmes said Atlanta and Houston may end up looking over their shoulders at the coast.

Before any deal could be finalized, the coliseum commission would have to approve the plans.

http://www.wlox.com/Global/story.asp?S=12844851

[CS Foltz]

Well a new Convention Center would take property, money and the will of the public! Having a plan and the means to implement it would be nice......along with some kind of vision and a plan! I would not count on this administration to do much of anything only because of John Boy being a lame duck! This might be something to discuss with all of the potiential mayoral candidates!

[urbanlibertarian]

Just curious.  Hypothetically, if we had to choose to spend $100M on either a new convention center or streetcar (but not both), which of the two do you guys think would bring greater economic benefit to the core?

[thelakelander]

Without a doubt, a streetcar would be more beneficial.  Jacksonville lacks urban connectivity and reliable fixed mass transit is the one thing that can truly bring multiple neighborhoods together.  Transportation infrastructure attracts market rate private development.  A convention center on the other hand won't but would help keep existing businesses and hotels open by sending them a steady stream of out-of-town guest with money to spend.  This in turn helps create diversified pedestrian activity needed for a 24/7 urban atmosphere.  This is why it's better to locate a new convention center in an established area where it can be a part of the scene, as opposed to being the make or break anchor in the middle of isolation.  

Luckily, funding for these types of projects would come from different sources. So hypothetically, you could build a streetcar system, transportation system, convention center, expand the port, enhance education, extend library hours, etc. at the same time.

[Charles Hunter]

Luckily, funding for these types of projects would come from different sources. So hypothetically, you could build a streetcar system, transportation system, convention center, expand the port, enhance education, extend library hours, etc. at the same time.

Not if any number of candidates on the state and local level win elections based on promises to slash taxes.  We need candidates who are not afraid to say that providing desired government services requires money.

[thelakelander]

You're right!  This is why it is important for residents to learn the issues and vote for a viable candidate in 2011.  We're at a crucial point in this city's history.  We can turn the corner or fall further behind depending on who gets in office and what their priorities are.

[vicupstate]

^^  The reason th P.O. has been unsuccessful is because it is too small and does not have any amenties.  What's so hard to understand about that?  It was a lousy location from day one and it has not keep tup with industry trends and needs from day one.  That is why it has steadily declined in useage.       

[BridgeTroll]

There is no history because we never constructed or invested in a workable facility.  In a similar fashion, we can't say the Skyway is a complete failure because we never built or operated in a manner to where it would work or become reliable.  We also can't say people won't walk in this town because we haven't invested in an urban landscape where walking would be a desirable thing to do. 

Anyway, I agree 100% that we should not build a nex convention center as the centerpiece of a revitalization plan.  That would be a fools errand.  However, it's also fools errand to run off the conventions, trade shows and special events we already have because of substandard facilities and locational issues.  Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, it makes sense to turn a lemon into lemonade.  A relocation of the convention center to the Bay Street courthouse site does this on so many levels that it's hard to make a logical case not to do so.

If our present convention center fails to bring in any of the small gatherings of less than 2000 people that are the bread and butter of the large convention centers, despite 50 years of marketing and experience,  what on earth convinces you that giving them a bigger building will increase sales in the group of people that they are already large enough to attract?

Location... Location... Location.  The Prime O doesn't fail because it is too small.  It fails because there is nothing around it.  No restaurants... no lodging... no night clubs... no walking...

IF we are to build a convention center... Bay Street is the place it belongs.

[BridgeTroll]

Im gonna guess location.  There still is no lodging.  As an attender of various conventions myself... I want places to go to eat and drink... perhaps shop.  I want to walk it or at least have reliable mass transit... I want to explore the city... not be stuck in a small corner.

Downtown... along the river... gets my vote...

[thelakelander]

If our present convention center fails to bring in any of the small gatherings of less than 2000 people that are the bread and butter of the large convention centers, despite 50 years of marketing and experience

Stephen, if we're going to throw local numbers out there, let's go with facts.  Two large events that left the Prime Osborn because of space constraints had 23,000 visitors at Daytona's convention center the first year after leaving Jacksonville.

The Ocean Center last year hosted two of the largest events in its history. The Spirit Team State Cheer and Dance Championships was the first spectator event to use all of the Ocean Center’s space, drawing more than 13,000 participants and spectators for a three-day competition.  Fire Rescue East followed a few weeks later, sponsored by the Florida Fire Chiefs Association.  This four-day trade show also used the entire facility, with 250 exhibits and almost 10,000 delegates.  

These two shows were among 62 events held at the Ocean Center last year. They would not have been possible without the 200,000 square feet of indoor exhibit and meeting space created by the expansion.  The Ocean Center is our most prestigious public building, only a few steps from the world’s most famous beach, and we love to show it off! Our staff has worked with the Ocean Walk Village, the Daytona Beach Convention and Visitors Bureau and local hoteliers to host familiarization tours for meeting and convention organizers and industry writers. We are off to a great start and we anticipate hosting 92 events this year with an expected attendance of more than 330,000 people. All of this occurred with the Ocean Center maintaining a balanced budget.
source: www.volusia.org/countycouncil/state10.htm

Do you think places like Marks, Dos Gatos, Poppy Love Smoke, TSI, Florida Theatre, the Landing, etc. would not like to see 23,000 more people walking past their front doors (assuming the space is relocated to the courthouse site)?  Do you not think that a portion of those 23,000 people spent some money on food, shopping or hotels at some point in their trip to these former DT Jacksonville events?  

what on earth convinces you that giving them a bigger building will increase sales in the group of people that they are already large enough to attract?

I mentioned this before and every naysayer continues to overlook or ignore it.  We have a substandard facility and we already benefit from existing trade shows, job fairs, expos, competitions and conventions.  Instead of worrying about increasing sales we need to be worrying about keeping, improving and better utilizing what we already have in place.  This line of thinking not only applies to a convention center, but existing building fabric, arts & culture, parks, neighborhoods, the ASE, etc.

In addition to this, it's already been proven that our convention center is too small in the form of long time events bailing our establishment for better facilities.  The quote above gives you the attendance number of two events that left downtown Jacksonville.  

[thelakelander]

If thats true, then why didnt it work when there were three nightclubs, several restaurants, and all of the buildings on Park and Riverside were still standing--not to mention the skyway connection?

LOL, you're expecting out-of-town convention delegates to walk a mile from the Prime Osborn through Brooklyn to get to a few isolated businesses or use a skyway to access a convention center hotel that is five blocks away from the nearest skyway stop.  That's the type of thinking that has downtown looking like it is today.  Come on, you can't be serious?

[tufsu1]

I still believe we need a minimum square to rectangular footprint of 6 to 8 acres to accommodate an exhibit hall of 150,000 to 200,000 square feet plus support services and support vehicle parking and access.  The old courthouse site just doesn't cut it.

1 acre = 43,560 square feet...so we would only need 3.5 to 4.5 acres to meet your exhibit hall size...assuming that we build a 2 (or more) story facility w/ meeting rooms, banquest space, and retail on one floor and the exhibit hall on the other.

I believe the best thing to do is build a center on the current courthouse and parking lot blocks....and build the parking garage at the old city hall annex (behind the Hyatt) w/ the ability to construct a building above it.

Based on my Google map measuring, the courthouse/parking block is about 500' x 750' = 375,000 square feet...or 8.5+ acres...and the old city hall annes site is around 380' x 325' = 123,500 square feet...or just under 3 acres.

[ChriswUfGator]

If that's the plan, then I can't believe we're going to demolish another highrise to put in another parking garage...

While I understand the need for a convention center to have its own parking, I think our downtown is unique in already having a 4-to-1 ratio of parking spaces to people, not counting this new idea for knocking down another high rise for another parking garage. Surely something can be done to utilize existing parking, and find another use for the old City Hall building? Or at least its property. Preferably something that doesn't involve more parking.

[tufsu1]

Your 4-1 parking claim has never been substantiated...that said, I agree that we have more parking downtown than we need....so what if it was a hotel w/ an integrated garage that also served the convenion center...would that be ok?

[ChriswUfGator]

Your 4-1 parking claim has never been substantiated...that said, I agree that we have more parking downtown than we need....so what if it was a hotel w/ an integrated garage that also served the convenion center...would that be ok?

Actually it was wholly substantiated.

What remains unsubstantiated were your nonsensical and contradictory arguments to the contrary, wherein you insisted there were at least 18,000 workers downtown, and claimed there were 2,000 people working in the Modis tower alone, and on and on ad nauseum. All based on outdated and decade-old figures.

Everything you posted was thoroughly debunked within minutes, and yet here you are making the same arguments again in a new thread, where readers don't have the benefit of having seen the outcome of the prior debate, and the dispositive evidence posted therein.

Since you are trying to re-start a debate you already lost in another thread that ran to 20 pages in length on this very same issue, I would humbly suggest to the moderators that your response ought to be re-located to the other thread where you already tried arguing all of this and failed miserably. If you want to re-start this debate, you should do it in that thread, where the readers will see all of the evidence that was posted that thoroughly disproved your argument.

But to continue restarting debates you already lost in other threads in new threads, where you know readers won't have the benefit of all of the evidence that has already disproved your assertions, is disingenuous at best.