Mayor Brown wants $40 million more from JEA to pay pension obligation

[icarus]

yawn.  the claims of corruption and cooking the books come from icarus and field.

Stephen - I reread the comments and I don't see where either Field or I made claims of corruption or cooking the books.  Far from it, I know my responses were the opposite and generally in response to the explicit and implicit claims contained in both your and Chris' comments.

I've summarized them below for your convenience:

Stephen - (1) "That money doesnt go into the operations of the bloody enterprise, it goes into the pockets of the small group of private bondholders."

(2) "The energy company has been looting its franchise for years now."

(3)  "it seems clear that theyve been looting a half billion dollars a year for a decade or so."

(4) "the city should not allow its Enronergy company to pass the financial buck to the public that putatively owns it."

(5) "Maybe an audit by fed investigators would be a good idea anyways."

ChriswUFGator - (1) " ...yet insists on borrowing the funds anyway from insider-connected groups, and pays over market considering their credit rating.."

(2) Yes, people said the same of Arthur Andersen.

[TheCat]

This is a link to the JEA Charter:

http://library.municode.com/HTML/12174/level3/CHRELA_PTACHLACHJAFL_ART21JE.html


This is how payment to the city should be determined...I'm looking for my calculator. Let me know when you find yours.

(c)As consideration for the unique relationship between the City of Jacksonville and JEA, as a tax-exempt entity within the consolidated government, and in recognition of the shared attributes with the consolidated City of Jacksonville in connection with its electric, water, and sewer distribution systems, there shall be assessed upon JEA in each fiscal year, for the uses and purposes of the city, from the revenues of the electric system and the water and sewer system operated by JEA available after the payment of all costs and expenses incurred by JEA in connection with the operation of such electric system and water and sewer system (including, without limitation, all costs of operation and maintenance, debt service on all obligations issued by JEA in connection with such electric system and water and sewer system and required reserves therefore and the annual deposit to the depreciation and reserve account required pursuant to section 21.07(g)), an amount as provided herein. Effective October 1, 2008, consistent with the provisions of this section 21.07(c), JEA shall pay the city a combined assessment for the electric system and the water and sewer system. The combined assessment for the electric system and the water and sewer system shall equal, but not exceed the sum of (i) the amount calculated by multiplying 5.513 mills by the gross kilowatt-hours delivered by JEA to retail users of electricity in JEA's service area and to wholesale customers under firm contracts having an original term of more than one year (other than sales of energy to Florida Power and Light Company from JEA's St. Johns River Power Park System) during the twelve-month period ending on April 30 of the fiscal year immediately preceding the fiscal year for which such assessment is applicable plus (ii) the amount calculated by multiplying 2.149 mills by the number of cubic feet of potable water and cubic feet of sewer service, excluding reclaimed water service, provided to consumers during the twelve-month period ending on April 30 of the fiscal year immediately preceding the fiscal year for which such assessment is applicable. Notwithstanding the foregoing not-to-exceed amount for the combined assessment, JEA shall pay the city each fiscal year, from fiscal year 2008-2009 through fiscal year 2015-2016, an additional amount, if necessary, to ensure a minimum annual increase of $ $2,500,000, using the fiscal year 2007-2008 combined assessment of $ $94,187,538 as the base year.

AND

(i)In addition to all other sums paid by JEA to the City of Jacksonville, JEA shall pay to the City of Jacksonville a franchise fee in an amount equal to three percent (3%) of the revenues of the electric system and the water and sewer system as set forth in Section 21.07(c) herein. The franchise fee will commence for revenues derived effective April 1, 2008 and shall be paid monthly with the first payment payable on June 1, 2008. The franchise fee shall be limited to (1) revenues derived within Duval County not including Urban Service Districts 2-5, and (2) per customer, total water and sewer rate revenues, and (3) up to a per customer maximum of $2,400,000 per fiscal year of electric rate revenues. The franchise fee shall be calculated each month by multiplying three percent (3%) by the sum of JEA's base rate electric revenues, fuel rate revenues, water rate revenues and sewer rate revenues for that month excluding unbilled revenues and uncollectible accounts. The franchise fee shall be calculated on revenues derived from the sale of gross kilowatt-hours and number of cubic feet of potable water and cubic feet of sewer service as set forth in Section 21.07(c). Notwithstanding the foregoing, no franchise fee shall be paid on franchise fees, state utility taxes, fuel related interchange sales, sales for resale, City of Jacksonville accounts, JEA accounts, investment income and other revenues. JEA shall be authorized to pass-through the amount of the franchise fees set forth herein and associated charges resulting from the stated three percent (3%) franchise fee calculation on rate revenues notwithstanding the $2,400,000 limit set forth herein to the customers of JEA, in accordance with the customers' proportionate share of rate revenues as calculated above. This franchise fee is in consideration of the administrative costs incurred by the City to coordinate functions and services with JEA, for the exclusive right to serve electric, water and sewer customers, for use by JEA of the public rights-of-way used by it in connection with its electric distribution system and its water and sewer distribution and collection system, and in further consideration of the unique relationship of JEA and the City, in which JEA is a wholly owned public utility, and such other good and valuable consideration that has been agreed to between JEA and the City of Jacksonville. The gross franchise fee and the amount of the pass-through set forth herein may be increased by ordinance, initiated by the Mayor and approved by two-thirds supermajority of the City Council, but the franchise fee shall not exceed six percent (6%) of the gross utility revenues as calculated above. The JEA and the City shall enter into a Franchise Fee Agreement for the administration of the Franchise Fee.


http://library.municode.com/HTML/12174/level3/CHRELA_PTACHLACHJAFL_ART21JE.html#CHRELA_PTACHLACHJAFL_ART21JE_S21.07FIBUFU



The city was supposed to review this algorithm on Sept 30, 2013.

[ChriswUfGator]

yawn.  the claims of corruption and cooking the books come from icarus and field.

Stephen - I reread the comments and I don't see where either Field or I made claims of corruption or cooking the books.  Far from it, I know my responses were the opposite and generally in response to the explicit and implicit claims contained in both your and Chris' comments.

I've summarized them below for your convenience:

Stephen - (1) "That money doesnt go into the operations of the bloody enterprise, it goes into the pockets of the small group of private bondholders."

(2) "The energy company has been looting its franchise for years now."

(3)  "it seems clear that theyve been looting a half billion dollars a year for a decade or so."

(4) "the city should not allow its Enronergy company to pass the financial buck to the public that putatively owns it."

(5) "Maybe an audit by fed investigators would be a good idea anyways."

ChriswUFGator - (1) " ...yet insists on borrowing the funds anyway from insider-connected groups, and pays over market considering their credit rating.."

(2) Yes, people said the same of Arthur Andersen.

So after we've already objected to your pigeonholing this discussion into something it wasn't, in an effort to avoid discussing the actual issue, your response is...more of the same?

[ChriswUfGator]

It seems the 'proof' that JEA is corrupt and cooking the books is based on testimony at the Consolidation hearings and nothing more.  If the testimony were so damning, why isn't Lori Breyer, some other committee member, or someone else that heard the 'smoking gun' doing something about it?

I've never heard of any public or private utility not using bonds and debt instruments as a normal course of business.  The burden on proof that something nefarious is going on is on Stephen and Chrisw.  JEA's financials are there for anyone to see. You have to prove they are corrupt, JEA doesn't have to prove they AREN'T. 

Can you provide the verbatim quotes from the hearings that you find the most suspicious?

I would say that skipping Pension contributions and cutting property tax rates during the 'good times' had/have a lot to do with the city's current problems, irregardless of JEA.

Despite Icarus' bullshit, the proof is rather simple. Their charter (already posted in this thread) obligates them to pay X, and according to their financial statements (also already posted in this thread) they're not paying X. In fact they're presently "negotiating" with the city council to pay about 1/4 of X. The question is simple: As a taxpayer, where's the rest of my money?

Of course, instead of answering this obvious question, which was posed multiple times, we're instead going to pigeonhole it into being something else, erect strawmen, and just generally duck having to answer it. Really, this like amateur hour. Normally I'd engage, but it's not challenging enough to be entertaining.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, anybody want to answer the question: As a taxpayer, where's the rest of my money?

[vicupstate]

It seems the 'proof' that JEA is corrupt and cooking the books is based on testimony at the Consolidation hearings and nothing more.  If the testimony were so damning, why isn't Lori Breyer, some other committee member, or someone else that heard the 'smoking gun' doing something about it?

I've never heard of any public or private utility not using bonds and debt instruments as a normal course of business.  The burden on proof that something nefarious is going on is on Stephen and Chrisw.  JEA's financials are there for anyone to see. You have to prove they are corrupt, JEA doesn't have to prove they AREN'T. 

Can you provide the verbatim quotes from the hearings that you find the most suspicious?

I would say that skipping Pension contributions and cutting property tax rates during the 'good times' had/have a lot to do with the city's current problems, irregardless of JEA.

Despite Icarus' bullshit, the proof is rather simple. Their charter (already posted in this thread) obligates them to pay X, and according to their financial statements (also already posted in this thread) they're not paying X. In fact they're presently "negotiating" with the city council to pay about 1/4 of X. The question is simple: As a taxpayer, where's the rest of my money?

Of course, instead of answering this obvious question, which was posed multiple times, we're instead going to pigeonhole it into being something else, erect strawmen, and just generally duck having to answer it. Really, this like amateur hour. Normally I'd engage, but it's not challenging enough to be entertaining.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, anybody want to answer the question: As a taxpayer, where's the rest of my money?

The info that The cat posted clearly shows that it is NOT a 20% flat fee. It is a very complicated and laborious calculation.     JEA aside, profit can be defined many ways (with or without depreciation, before or after taxes, etc.  A lot of 'profit' can be shown if no capital investment, or repairs and maintenance are made.     

The truth is, neither you nor Stephen has presented one shred of evidence of a nefarious nature.  Show us the quotes from the hearings.  Show us a behavior not common to energy utilities. Stop acting as if capital debt is not the norm for a utility.

You weaken the credibility of the entire site with these sensational tirades based on conspiracy theories instead of facts.  The only strawmen are the ones you two have made yourselves.
 

[edjax]

^^+1000

[ChriswUfGator]

It seems the 'proof' that JEA is corrupt and cooking the books is based on testimony at the Consolidation hearings and nothing more.  If the testimony were so damning, why isn't Lori Breyer, some other committee member, or someone else that heard the 'smoking gun' doing something about it?

I've never heard of any public or private utility not using bonds and debt instruments as a normal course of business.  The burden on proof that something nefarious is going on is on Stephen and Chrisw.  JEA's financials are there for anyone to see. You have to prove they are corrupt, JEA doesn't have to prove they AREN'T. 

Can you provide the verbatim quotes from the hearings that you find the most suspicious?

I would say that skipping Pension contributions and cutting property tax rates during the 'good times' had/have a lot to do with the city's current problems, irregardless of JEA.

Despite Icarus' bullshit, the proof is rather simple. Their charter (already posted in this thread) obligates them to pay X, and according to their financial statements (also already posted in this thread) they're not paying X. In fact they're presently "negotiating" with the city council to pay about 1/4 of X. The question is simple: As a taxpayer, where's the rest of my money?

Of course, instead of answering this obvious question, which was posed multiple times, we're instead going to pigeonhole it into being something else, erect strawmen, and just generally duck having to answer it. Really, this like amateur hour. Normally I'd engage, but it's not challenging enough to be entertaining.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, anybody want to answer the question: As a taxpayer, where's the rest of my money?

The info that The cat posted clearly shows that it is NOT a 20% flat fee. It is a very complicated and laborious calculation.     JEA aside, profit can be defined many ways (with or without depreciation, before or after taxes, etc.  A lot of 'profit' can be shown if no capital investment, or repairs and maintenance are made.     

The truth is, neither you nor Stephen has presented one shred of evidence of a nefarious nature.  Show us the quotes from the hearings.  Show us a behavior not common to energy utilities. Stop acting as if capital debt is not the norm for a utility.

You weaken the credibility of the entire site with these sensational tirades based on conspiracy theories instead of facts.  The only strawmen are the ones you two have made yourselves.
 

I really couldn't care less about your evaluation of my credibility, from your birdseye perspective 600 miles away in the carolinas. You've pulled this crap before, and I didn't care about your opinion then, and I don't care about it now. You've been warning me every time I've disagreed with you for years that me, Stephen, whoever you disagreed with, is damaging the credibility of this website.

Oddly enough the world keeps on spinning, the website has gained six figures in readership, things are peachy here in jacksonville (unlike you I actually live here), and yet you keep on warning people about damaging a website that you don't own in a city where you don't live. By all means, ask me how much I care. As to your comments to Stephen, considering he's an owner of this site, if you don't like it then by all means start your own website and run it however you want.

[icarus]

I genuinely felt bad about posting a tongue and cheek comment ridiculing the conspiratorial gossipy arguments a few posted on here.  But, after being called schizophrenic and now having my comments called bullshit, any personal guilt I felt in pointing out the absolute absurdity and patently ignorant comments in this thread has absolutely been assuaged.

I'm not even sure if some even understand what the term pigeon hole means or its mathematical origins. If what you meant to say, Chris, is that I wanted to contain the discussion to relevant facts devoid of conspiracy theories and focus on the real issue, I can agree with that characterization.  On the other hand, if you are complaining that I was not content to allow two people to hijack a legitimate topic with conspiracy and conjecture devoid of any real supporting argument, I can agree that is probably true because I find it difficult to suffer fools and idiots.

The fact is that our local government has over promised retirement benefits and availed itself of pension holidays.  The Mayor's office now wants to obfuscate the real issues by engaging in cheap accounting gimmicks and preying on the emotional weaknesses of the general public in an attempt to cover it's complete ineptitude. Your seeming inability to look past the naming of JEA and your emotional responses herein only shows the effectiveness of the Mayor's attempt to prey upon the weak.

Duval County is lucky that as a result of legacy decisions we own the local utility. Most counties in our state must be content to balance their budgets strictly on tax revenue and user 'fees.' As a collective, we should be engaged in using this financial contribution as an opportunity to prioritize our spending and invest in our future ... not as a way to cover up past transgressions.  What exactly do our tax dollars pay for? Why is it every other county can live within their tax revenues but we have to look to outside sources and resources, i.e. JEA?

If you can't see this for what it is, well, you are a fool and I would be even more so to try and disavow you of your foolish ways.  Goodnight, good luck and God bless. Ciao.

[BridgeTroll]

I genuinely felt bad about posting a tongue and cheek comment ridiculing the conspiratorial gossipy arguments a few posted on here.  But, after being called schizophrenic and now having my comments called bullshit, any personal guilt I felt in pointing out the absolute absurdity and patently ignorant comments in this thread has absolutely been assuaged.

I'm not even sure if some even understand what the term pigeon hole means or its mathematical origins. If what you meant to say, Chris, is that I wanted to contain the discussion to relevant facts devoid of conspiracy theories and focus on the real issue, I can agree with that characterization.  On the other hand, if you are complaining that I was not content to allow two people to hijack a legitimate topic with conspiracy and conjecture devoid of any real supporting argument, I can agree that is probably true because I find it difficult to suffer fools and idiots.

The fact is that our local government has over promised retirement benefits and availed itself of pension holidays.  The Mayor's office now wants to obfuscate the real issues by engaging in cheap accounting gimmicks and preying on the emotional weaknesses of the general public in an attempt to cover it's complete ineptitude. Your seeming inability to look past the naming of JEA and your emotional responses herein only shows the effectiveness of the Mayor's attempt to prey upon the weak.

Duval County is lucky that as a result of legacy decisions we own the local utility. Most counties in our state must be content to balance their budgets strictly on tax revenue and user 'fees.' As a collective, we should be engaged in using this financial contribution as an opportunity to prioritize our spending and invest in our future ... not as a way to cover up past transgressions.  What exactly do our tax dollars pay for? Why is it every other county can live within their tax revenues but we have to look to outside sources and resources, i.e. JEA?

If you can't see this for what it is, well, you are a fool and I would be even more so to try and disavow you of your foolish ways.  Goodnight, good luck and God bless. Ciao.

Awesome post Icarus... and I'm not even refering to the actual topic...
"Mayor Brown wants $40 million more from JEA to pay pension obligation"

I am refering to you pointing out what routinely happens to posters who disagree or have differing opinions or even see facts in a differing light than certain others.  I am sorry to say you have just experienced it.  You have been called names and your opinions belittled... it is very possible an ism or two will be directed towards you if you continue.  I and a few others hope you will continue... we think you are doing a great job with your posts.

Follow the lead of Daedalus... 

[ChriswUfGator]

I genuinely felt bad about posting a tongue and cheek comment ridiculing the conspiratorial gossipy arguments a few posted on here.  But, after being called schizophrenic and now having my comments called bullshit, any personal guilt I felt in pointing out the absolute absurdity and patently ignorant comments in this thread has absolutely been assuaged.

I'm not even sure if some even understand what the term pigeon hole means or its mathematical origins. If what you meant to say, Chris, is that I wanted to contain the discussion to relevant facts devoid of conspiracy theories and focus on the real issue, I can agree with that characterization.  On the other hand, if you are complaining that I was not content to allow two people to hijack a legitimate topic with conspiracy and conjecture devoid of any real supporting argument, I can agree that is probably true because I find it difficult to suffer fools and idiots.

The fact is that our local government has over promised retirement benefits and availed itself of pension holidays.  The Mayor's office now wants to obfuscate the real issues by engaging in cheap accounting gimmicks and preying on the emotional weaknesses of the general public in an attempt to cover it's complete ineptitude. Your seeming inability to look past the naming of JEA and your emotional responses herein only shows the effectiveness of the Mayor's attempt to prey upon the weak.

Duval County is lucky that as a result of legacy decisions we own the local utility. Most counties in our state must be content to balance their budgets strictly on tax revenue and user 'fees.' As a collective, we should be engaged in using this financial contribution as an opportunity to prioritize our spending and invest in our future ... not as a way to cover up past transgressions.  What exactly do our tax dollars pay for? Why is it every other county can live within their tax revenues but we have to look to outside sources and resources, i.e. JEA?

If you can't see this for what it is, well, you are a fool and I would be even more so to try and disavow you of your foolish ways.  Goodnight, good luck and God bless. Ciao.

You weren't containing the discussion to relevant facts, you were containing it the facts that supported what you wanted the discussion to be, rather what than it actually was. This was pointed out to you multiple times, and you continued doing it.

[ChriswUfGator]

I genuinely felt bad about posting a tongue and cheek comment ridiculing the conspiratorial gossipy arguments a few posted on here.  But, after being called schizophrenic and now having my comments called bullshit, any personal guilt I felt in pointing out the absolute absurdity and patently ignorant comments in this thread has absolutely been assuaged.

I'm not even sure if some even understand what the term pigeon hole means or its mathematical origins. If what you meant to say, Chris, is that I wanted to contain the discussion to relevant facts devoid of conspiracy theories and focus on the real issue, I can agree with that characterization.  On the other hand, if you are complaining that I was not content to allow two people to hijack a legitimate topic with conspiracy and conjecture devoid of any real supporting argument, I can agree that is probably true because I find it difficult to suffer fools and idiots.

The fact is that our local government has over promised retirement benefits and availed itself of pension holidays.  The Mayor's office now wants to obfuscate the real issues by engaging in cheap accounting gimmicks and preying on the emotional weaknesses of the general public in an attempt to cover it's complete ineptitude. Your seeming inability to look past the naming of JEA and your emotional responses herein only shows the effectiveness of the Mayor's attempt to prey upon the weak.

Duval County is lucky that as a result of legacy decisions we own the local utility. Most counties in our state must be content to balance their budgets strictly on tax revenue and user 'fees.' As a collective, we should be engaged in using this financial contribution as an opportunity to prioritize our spending and invest in our future ... not as a way to cover up past transgressions.  What exactly do our tax dollars pay for? Why is it every other county can live within their tax revenues but we have to look to outside sources and resources, i.e. JEA?

If you can't see this for what it is, well, you are a fool and I would be even more so to try and disavow you of your foolish ways.  Goodnight, good luck and God bless. Ciao.

Awesome post Icarus... and I'm not even refering to the actual topic...
"Mayor Brown wants $40 million more from JEA to pay pension obligation"

I am refering to you pointing out what routinely happens to posters who disagree or have differing opinions or even see facts in a differing light than certain others.  I am sorry to say you have just experienced it.  You have been called names and your opinions belittled... it is very possible an ism or two will be directed towards you if you continue.  I and a few others hope you will continue... we think you are doing a great job with your posts.

Follow the lead of Daedalus... 

Hardly.

That is yet one more attempt to become the voice of reason in a discussion wherein they created the problem they now complain of. Of course I should point out that my question about JEA paying less than its required contribution to the city still hasn't been answered:

Meanwhile back at the ranch, anybody want to answer the question: As a taxpayer, where's the rest of my money?

The post you're replying to is just another attempt to duck the question.

[thelakelander]

I am referring to you pointing out what routinely happens to posters who disagree or have differing opinions or even see facts in a differing light than certain others.  I am sorry to say you have just experienced it.

I've been posting on, helped operate and have created forums like this since 2001.  Here's a Kenny Rodgers strategy I apply in situations like this:

"You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away, know when to run.
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table,
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done."

You're involved in a situation where you're not going to convince the opposing side to understand or accept your point of view. Unless, you want to get deep into the back and forth, which will spiral out of control (it always does) and light years away from the original topic, just remember that most reading are intelligent enough to form their own opinions in these debates. For the intelligent who are truly interested in this issue, enough material has been exposed for them to do their own homework and research. IMO, your points, fieldafm's, etc. have already been eloquently presented.

You weaken the credibility of the entire site with these sensational tirades based on conspiracy theories instead of facts.  The only strawmen are the ones you two have made yourselves.

This particular MetroJacksonville.com website is comprised of a front page, which works more like a blog or hyper-local media site, and a interactive community forum where anyone can start topics and discussions.

Because the forum is a discussion board, where anyone can make an opinion or post an assumption, it is a "wild west" mixture of discussion, debate, personality traits, etc., that has not had an impact on Metro Jacksonville's overall credibility. Yet, it's a popular place because nothing like it really exists in Jacksonville, a community that has historically attempted to muzzle the thoughts and opinions of the average resident.

From my experience, the forums tend to build or destroy credibility on an individual basis more than anything else. The forum's true value is it is a melting pot of information that can be used for more research into a variety of topics.  Sometimes, things said pan out in reality and sometimes they don't. Personally, I use the forums as one of many resources for hyper local produced front page content and so do most of the reporters for large media entities throughout the city.  In fact, it's pretty common to see topics and discussions in the forum end up being published as article topics in local papers a few days later.

With the front page and articles, we strive to only allow well researched, sourced and documented content, so it has a different level of credibility and influence.  Also, where the site has really achieved credibility that can't be destroyed by individual posts is it's ability to rally residents around certain issues, influencing change on the city and local politics as a whole.  From the modification of BRT and getting transit into the LRTP, to getting a bike path into the I-95/JTB project, food trucks, the streetscaping of Laura Street, mothballing in Springfield and the revitalization of King Street, the community posting here has played a leading role. This is the part I actually enjoy most and why I continue to participate in the role I've accepted.

[BridgeTroll]

[tufsu1]

Preach on!

[ChriswUfGator]

More like certain posters in this thread need some of this: