Why, in the Name of God, is the MPO supporting the city killing Outer Beltway?

[tufsu1]

Thats a great list for the Census.

But its not a great list for a planning organization.  Notice the
"adjacent communities having a high degree of social and economic integration with that core"
part of that definition.

the Census definition of "integrated" means that a certain percentage (25%) of folks in "bedroom" communities commute to the primary city for work.

[cline]

TUFSU..  Weve already established that the MPO was established at the State level and not as an arm of the US Census board.  Additionally, I think we can all read the clear english for ourselves.

It is not established at the state level.  MPOs are required by the Feds to be formed for all urbanized areas.  There are hundreds of MPOs all across the country.

[thelakelander]

The TPO is a result of a federal statue.  It mentions this on the website right above history:

What is the North Florida TPO?

Federal Statute's requires every urbanized area with a population of 50,000 or more, including all contiguous urban areas with a population of 1,000 or more per square mile, to have a Metropolitan Planning Organization.

http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/index.php?id=2

[Ocklawaha]

Ya know? Seems like we have this big "high school" minded city, living in the age of Masters Degrees. We have our token large buildings, our token beaches, the Navy and FBC... We sat through the last great Florida building boom and managed to lose downtown square footage while Miami got 70 new towers. Jealous child that we are we will never admit that we're not Atlanta, or Miami or God Forbid even Orlando. Yeah, we got a few high rollers, one of which bought a football team. Now if we can just find 70,000 people in Northeast Florida that make more then $7.00 an hour working for Mickey D's or Wally World that could buy a few tickets. Money that certainly will compete with pink hair curlers, and Walgreen's nail polish and "honk if your horny" bumper stickers. We do have a port, and we do have railroads, but we alone feel that's kind of old school. We can't see how to steer our way to their success as we tumble backwards in Tampa's and Charlotte's jet wash.

Got a statue we can copy? We can't do original because we have so far to go just to pull even, surely no one will notice.

A beltway, another beltway, let's see how many does Miami have? How about Atlanta? How many did they have before they got MARTA or METRORAIL? We're not there yet, just give us a few more years and another 500,000 wannabes. Maybe BRT will work, you know it's JUST LIKE RAIL (only cheaper...). Buddy that has Jacksonville written all over it.

A new beltway will do nicely. I'm thinking two or three links up through Nassau County too. Oh and don't forget Starke. Lot's of football fans in Starke.

OCKLAWAHA

[cline]

The 'about' page clearly states that MPOs are required for an area to get federal spending, but it certainly doesnt make any silly claims about them being organized by the feds.

In our local case, the First Coast Planning organization simply voted itself as the MPO, with approval from other agencies.

That is unless I am somehow completely mistaken.  If so, I would love to know what number to call in DC to get further info about our local board.

Especially considering that the Federal Office of the DOT disavowed all knowledge of the local board.

Wrong.  

Here's the link to FHWA's website on MPOs.  

http://www.planning.dot.gov/metro.asp

By the way FHWA is a Federal organization.  It "clearly" states here that MPOs are required in urbanized areas.  Besides, why would the Feds choose to give MPOs money if they weren't somehow linked?

[tufsu1]

I've always been in favor of a path that creates a new river crossing between the Buckman and Shands Bridges.  If there was one in place, it would help relieve N/S traffic on Blanding, Roosevelt, San Jose and I-295.  Replacing the Shands with a new structure, that will be toll, destroys that possibility.

several alignments were studied as part of th PD&E study....one problem with a bridge to the north was that the road would traverse through St. Joe's Rivertown development, which did not have them pleased.

[tufsu1]

Especially considering that the Federal Office of the DOT disavowed all knowledge of the local board.

Who did you speak to at USDOT...and were they in D.C., Atlanta, or Tallahassee?

And yes, Stephen, state and local governments have been given the power to create Federally-mandated MPOs....for example, the Tampa Bay region has 6 MPOs representing 8 counties and South Florida has 3 MPOs for the Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-West Palm area

The state has threatened several times to disband and reorganize the MPOs in both regions...in the Tampa Bay case, the hope is that at least Hillsborough, Pinellas, and Pasco work together....in order to potect their existing structures, the MPOs agreed to coordinate on regional priorities through the West Central Florida Chairs Coordinating Committee

http://www.regionaltransportation.org/

Now, just imagine how dysfunctional regional planning could be in these rapidly growing areas of Florida!

[Ocklawaha]

I've always been in favor of a path that creates a new river crossing between the Buckman and Shands Bridges.  If there was one in place, it would help relieve N/S traffic on Blanding, Roosevelt, San Jose and I-295.  Replacing the Shands with a new structure, that will be toll, destroys that possibility.

several alignments were studied as part of th PD&E study....one problem with a bridge to the north was that the road would traverse through St. Joe's Rivertown development, which did not have them pleased.

Not to mention it would ruin the view from Hibernia...

I was thinking.

Maybe?

A canoe? Maybe an indian dugout Al La Isiah Hart? .5 cents a head... Hibernia to Switzerland non stop sort of has a ring to it.

Got to think BIG CITY here... BIG CITY! BIG, HUGE!

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

several alignments were studied as part of th PD&E study....one problem with a bridge to the north was that the road would traverse through St. Joe's Rivertown development, which did not have them pleased.

Is Rivertown fully developed or did portions of it go up in smoke with the rest of the housing market?  Sometimes you have to take one for the team.  Or just go with the "no-build" alternative.

Now that that stage has come and gone, Outer Beltway opponents should continue to hope that the project ends up not being feasible to the private sector.  After all, FDOT can't afford to spend $2 billion on it and there is only so much people are going to pay in toll, before traffic count estimates fall.

[thelakelander]

Stephen, others closer to the project may have to elaborate, but the Outer Beltway is well passed MPO endorsement stage.  The argument I think you may be presenting should have been made 5-10 years ago.

[thelakelander]

Lake, don't we have graphics showing the two possible growth patterns?

Both scenarios include the Outer Beltway.  The alternative relies on mass transit corridors, that in turn, eliminate the need for additional road improvements in certain areas across the region.

[Dapperdan]

I really think this bridge is needed. I think it would help out alot with traffic, as said before, going North on 17 and across the Buckman. Until you have to drive through that mess everyday, you will never know what a blessing this would be. Now the part that goes through Clay to I-10, I am not too sure about, but it would be akin to the Atlanta bypass would it not? I take the bypass up there everytime.

[thelakelander]

Trend Scenario:

If our land use and current growth patterns don't change, the "colored" areas are most likely to be the spots of future growth between now and 2035. 



Color - Classification - Density - Example

Red - City (3-30 dwelling units/acre) - Downtown, St. Augustine Historic District
Dark Purple - Town (15-30 dwelling units/acre) - Five Points, Transit oriented development
Light Purple - Village (3-15 dwelling units/acre) - San Jose, Avondale
Dark Yellow - City Neighborhood (3-30 dwelling units/acre) - Riverside, Springfield, San Marco
Light yellow - suburban development (1-6 dwelling units/acre) - Julington Creek
Light Red - No mixed-use Commercial - Baymeadows, River City Marketplace
Purple/Gray - Industrial - JaxPort


Alternative Scenario D
Future growth is channeled towards proposed commuter rail corridors, resulting in denser development, using less land.



As you can see, the Outer Beltway is a part of both scenarios.  However land use changes would result in less low density sprawl taking place around it.

[tufsu1]

Except that the MPO became an MPO about five years ago.

not true...as stated yourself, the MPO was formed in 1978....it became an independent body (separate from COJ) in 2003 because the official 2000 census-definition for the Jacksonville METROPOLITAN area grew to include portions of St. Johns, Nassau, and Clay Counties.

[tufsu1]

Keep in mind that the "Trend" scenario is really a compilation of all the local government comprehensive plans...so this is the adopted land use plan for the region as of now.