Why, in the Name of God, is the MPO supporting the city killing Outer Beltway?

[stephendare]

We were recently astounded to learn that our alleged metropolitan planning organization is actively supporting the largest sprawl mechanism devised in this city since the introduction of the automobile itself.

The outerbeltway system.  A road project, which if built, will create unprecedent and completely unstustainable avenues of development into the farthest reaching areas of the surrounding country side.

A powerful disincentive to the bankruptcy causing effects of urban sprawl is the lack of highways giving developers access to remote areas. 

Jacksonville, as a city/county government and one of the largest land areas in the contiguous states is already reeling with the disastrous economic effects of poorly planned, liberally implemented sprawl.  We literally cannot afford basic services equally for all of our residents.

When asked why these clowns were actually supporting the development of the outer beltway (and all of its attendent corruption)  We were told straight out that it was all political.

What the hell good is a planning agency if its all going to be political anyways?

[Sigma]

Exactly. 

Wasn't the big selling point of the partial loop - connecting I-10 to I -95 South along the SW part of the city - to relieve traffic through town? 

But before it has been built, the housing sprang up very quickly to take advantage of it.

[tufsu1]

keep in mind that the MPO is a regional body, representing Duval, Nassau, Clay, and St. Johns counties....a more legitimate question would be why the Duval representatives on the MPO board endorse the outer beltway

[stjr]

You answered most of the question already Stephen.  Politics.  St. Johns and Clay have always bemoaned their status as burbs of the big city.  Clay feels they are second class until the can say an interstate runs through their 'hood.  Don't ask me why, that's just the way they feel.  I suspect they all think more roads means less congestion when decades of road building just prove the exact opposite.

The rest of the answer lies in that other great word associated with road building: Greed.  Yep, all those land owners and developers think it will bring more pay dirt.  There is no end to their desires until its all paved over.  But, that's someone (us?) else's problem.

The last word: Tit for tat.  If Jax wants "regional" support for its projects, it has to throw bones to these guys.  If it can be built "privately", Jax throws the bone without redirecting regional funds (at least for now) to these counties.  Of course, when they see all the new congestion created from building the outer beltway, they will all be back to the trough for more dollars to pay to build and/or expand its feeder roads.

Why don't they work together on regional rail mass transit instead?  Go ask them.  They probably won't give the honest answer.  But, I suspect, "railroaders" are not major contributors to political campaigns.

[thelakelander]

met·ro·pol·i·tan  (mtr-pl-tn)
adj.
1.
a. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a major city: crowded metropolitan streets; a metropolitan newspaper.
b. Of or constituting a large city or urbanized area, including adjacent suburbs and towns: the Dallas-Fort Worth metropolitan area; a metropolitan county.
2. Of, relating to, or constituting the home territory of an imperial or colonial state.
3. Of or relating to an ecclesiastical metropolitan.
n.
1. A citizen of a metropolis, especially one who displays urbane characteristics, attitudes, and values.
2.
a. In the Western Christian churches, a bishop with provincial powers, with some authority over suffragan bishops.
b. Eastern Orthodox Church A bishop who is head of an ecclesiastical province and ranks next below the patriarch.

Here is the definition of MSA that the US Census Bureau goes by:

Metropolitan Statistical Area

Source: U.S. Bureau of the Census: Metropolitan Areas. New areas usually are added annually; definitions of existing areas updated only after each decennial census, in years ending in 3. http://www.census.gov/population/www/estimates/metroarea.html

Definitions:

The general concept of a metropolitan area is that of a large population nucleus, together with adjacent communities having a high degree of social and economic integration with that core. Metropolitan areas comprise one or more entire counties, except in New England, where cities and towns are the basic geographic units.

The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) defines metropolitan areas for purposes of collecting, tabulating, and publishing federal data. Metropolitan area definitions result from applying published standards to Census Bureau data.

A metropolitan areas identified as a consolidated metropolitan statistical area (CMSA) has a population of one million or more and also has separate component areas (PMSAs - primary metropolitan statistical areas) meeting statistical criteria and supported by local opinion.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/meta/long_metro.htm

additional information: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/bulletins/fy2009/09-01.pdf


According to the US Census Bureau, Jacksonville's MSA consists of five counties.

Jacksonville, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area
Baker County, FL
Clay County, FL
Duval County, FL
Nassau County, FL
St. Johns County, FL

http://www.census.gov/population/www/metroareas/lists/2007/List4.txt

[thelakelander]

I'm not debating what its great for.  I just wanted to share what the actual definition of an MSA is, according to the federal government, and what it defines as Jax's MSA.  Any idea of how the TPO differs from other transportation planning organizations across the country?

[thelakelander]

Does this help shed any light about the TPO?

About Us

What is the North Florida TPO?

Federal Statute's requires every urbanized area with a population of 50,000 or more, including all contiguous urban areas with a population of 1,000 or more per square mile, to have a Metropolitan Planning Organization. By State Statute, TPO's are responsible for transportation related air, noise and water quality planning and the development of the:

Unified Planning Work Program (UPWP) detailing the TPO's annual budget and planning activities;

Transportation Improvement Program (TIP) listing the funding and staging of improvements for roadways, transit, air and seaports, bicyclists, pedestrians and the transportation disadvantaged over a five-year period; and

Long Range Transportation Plan (LRTP) with a 20+ year time horizon based on current needs and forecasted future growth which lists the multi-modal transportation projects that are needed and can be funded in that timeframe.

In addition to developing these plans and programs, the North Florida TPO identifies issues, convenes stakeholders, conducts studies and develops policies in light of local, national and global trends. Recent initiatives include coordinating regional legislative priorities, integrating land use and transportation planning and preparing for increased global trade. We also address current needs and challenges that impact our daily lives through programs for commuters, the transportation disadvantaged, bicyclists and pedestrians.

Our History

The First Coast Metropolitan Planning Organization was officially designated in 1978 by Florida Governor Reuben Askew. An Inter-Local Agreement between the City of Jacksonville, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA), the Jacksonville Planning and Development Department, Clay County, St. Johns County and the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) first established the North Florida TPO.

In 2003 the North Florida TPO voted to become an independent regional agency, making it the third in Florida. This was a major decision that the Board made concurrent with expanding the North Florida TPO boundary to incorporate the newly designated St. Augustine Urbanized Area and portions of Clay County as a result of the 2000 Census. In 2004 the TPO boundary was expanded to include portions of Nassau County. Subsequently, the Board has added ex-officio members representing Baker, Putnam and Flagler Counties, as well as the U. S. Navy.

http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/index.php?id=2

[thelakelander]

so its a state rather than federal idea?

Which would make the federal census definition even less relevant?

It appears to be federal, but this is a question for Denise Bunnewith, the TPO's Executive Director.

I believe she has visited and posted on this site before.  Here is a link to her contact information: http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/index.php?id=9

[thelakelander]

What is the North Florida TPO?

Federal Statute's requires every urbanized area with a population of 50,000 or more, including all contiguous urban areas with a population of 1,000 or more per square mile, to have a Metropolitan Planning Organization.

http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/index.php?id=2

[thelakelander]

[jandar]

Yup, those of us that do support it in Clay County wanted it to create a new bridge near Fleming Island.

That would ease traffic on the Buckman the most.
St Johns County has I95 helping traffic issues, Clay has nothing save for overcrowded Blanding and US17.

when they agreed on that plan to take it over farmland and the shands bridge, I knew it was the developers who had the biggest say and not the residents.

[stjr]

Yup, those of us that do support it in Clay County wanted it to create a new bridge near Fleming Island.

That would ease traffic on the Buckman the most.
St Johns County has I95 helping traffic issues, Clay has nothing save for overcrowded Blanding and US17.

when they agreed on that plan to take it over farmland and the shands bridge, I knew it was the developers who had the biggest say and not the residents.

It seems rebuilding the Shands Bridge would have filled the need.  Does every St. Johns River crossing have to be an interstate bridge?  If you live in Clay and wish to live closer to an interstate, why not just live in Baker, Duval, Nassau, or St. Johns along the existing routes?  It would be nice to preserve some area for those who wish to live as far from an interstate as possible 

[thelakelander]

I've always been in favor of a path that creates a new river crossing between the Buckman and Shands Bridges.  If there was one in place, it would help relieve N/S traffic on Blanding, Roosevelt, San Jose and I-295.  Replacing the Shands with a new structure, that will be toll, destroys that possibility.

[Clem1029]

It seems rebuilding the Shands Bridge would have filled the need.  Does every St. Johns River crossing have to be an interstate bridge?  If you live in Clay and wish to live closer to an interstate, why not just live in Baker, Duval, Nassau, or St. Johns along the existing routes?  It would be nice to preserve some area for those who wish to live as far from an interstate as possible

Just rebuilding the Shands Bridge and leaving it SR 16 wouldn't solve the problem alone...there's just way too much traffic on US 17 going north during the commute, and Shands is 1) too far south to be an effective alternative and 2) once you're over the bridge, you still have all the 210 mess to deal with in St. John's county. In fact, just rebuilding Shands might make that worse, since it would be able to feed more people onto 210 to get to 95. The only way rebuilding Shands bridge becomes effective at relieving the issue is to have it connect directly to 95, which gets you the southern part of the outerbeltway.

Like Lake said, that area is in desperate need of just another bridge - heck, something that would connect Fleming Island to the other side would do wonders. It would remove all the Fleming Island traffic from US17N, meaning heading north would be a little easier, the Buckman would be significantly less of a nightmare, and would probably make life so much easier than the entire outer beltway. Only problem with that theory is 1) actually getting that land to build it and 2) there's no good place on the other side of the river to build out to since SR13 becomes one lane, and it pushes everyone either north back up to 295, or south back to 210...there would have to be some development done in Switzerland to handle that influx of traffic.

[Marie]

It is obvious that the author of this comment has not participated in Envision 2035, the update of the North Florida TPO's Long Range Transportation Plan.  If he or she had, as I have, he or she would know that five alternative futures were developed by rethinking how and where we should grow.  We have now narrowed the alternatives to two.  One based on the adopted Comprehensive Plans of each county, which in my opinion promote sprawl and support the Outer Beltway, and an alternative land use plan that promotes redevelopment in Duval County, more dense development along the areas primary rail corridors, and more employment in Clay, Nassau and St. Johns Counties.  Adoption of this alternative will require Counties to amend their Comp Plans.

The TPO will consider both alternatives at their May meeting.

Instead of just blogging, get involved.  Attend the workshops when they are advertised.  When they ask for public involvement they mean at the meeting.  They offer the same workshop at least 8 times, so there is no excuse.