1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings

[Ken_FSU]

5. Although Shad would not discuss the term sheet yet (that's good. let DIA do their thing) Lamping did say that a substantial part of the Shipyards investment will come from Shad/Iguana.

$20 million in cash upfront (vs. $200 million for Lot J) for remediation, site work, half the marina costs, and relocation of the Fire museums.

$75 million on the backend ($45 million rev grant, ~$30 million completion grant).

WORLDS better deal than Lot J.

And perhaps just as importantly, the structure of the deal (and the hope that the bed tax can fund a portion of the training facility) means that the Jags proposal doesn't necessarily torpedo our ability to get other downtown projects going concurrently.

[CityLife]

Doesn't Shad already own a Four Seasons?

Four Seasons operate almost like a franchise. If a prospective franchisee puts together a good enough deal for them, they will open anywhere.

Khan wants the hotel to include 25 residences. My hunch is that he wants a penthouse there for himself when he's in Jax (along with the Marina for his boat/boats). Then have a few units for Tony Khan and other family members/visitors. I also think it would be smart to save a few units to use as part of his compensation packages for Jags executives and coaches. I believe there are other pro sports franchises that use real estate assets this way.

Either way, having the Four Seasons and residences benefits Khan quite a bit personally and professionally. If he is committed to staying in Jax, I think he will operate it at breakeven (or maybe even a loss) just for the advantages it can provide him and the Jags.

[thelakelander]

The wife and I relocated part-time and this is probably just the kind of proposal that will seal the deal to relocate full-time.

Was wondering  where you went. Where did you end up relocating to?  Hope you are pleased with your decision.

We have spent the past 6 months "trying out" different cities.  Like the Jags, we also have a check list.  Right now we have an apartment in downtown Oklahoma City.  To parahrase former Bogota mayor Enrique Penalosa, a City is just a means to a way of life.  Figure out how you want to live then move to a City that has that.

Not sure where we go after OKC, but that is why we are on an expedition of discovery.

What are the pros and cons of OKC that you have experienced so far?

[Kerry]

All of this was the same giant Jags $4it sandwich being marketed and sold as prime steak - which is all the Jags and NFL have been doing to Jax since day 1.  Not surprising, some people still lap it up like they have never eaten before.

Do a binary switch with Jags and COJ.  COJ pays half inculding cost over runs (and get to keep half of any under-runs**), the Jags own all the non-revenue producing items, and the City gets all the revenue generation.  Do you think that Jags take that deal?  Of course they wouldn't.

** did you notice the Jags slipping that in.  If the price comes in under budget the Jags want to keep half the savings.  COJ should get 100% of the savings.

[Kerry]

The wife and I relocated part-time and this is probably just the kind of proposal that will seal the deal to relocate full-time.

Was wondering  where you went. Where did you end up relocating to?  Hope you are pleased with your decision.

We have spent the past 6 months "trying out" different cities.  Like the Jags, we also have a check list.  Right now we have an apartment in downtown Oklahoma City.  To parahrase former Bogota mayor Enrique Penalosa, a City is just a means to a way of life.  Figure out how you want to live then move to a City that has that.

Not sure where we go after OKC, but that is why we are on an expedition of discovery.

What are the pros and cons of OKC that you have experienced so far?

OKC has a lot going for it so the Pro list is really long.  We actually love it here.

On the Con side, their streetcar layout is poorly designed and operated, but that is what you get when a Citizens over-sight board is in charge and none of them have any transit planning experience.

Nice grocery stores are few and far between, at least for those of us living downtown.  That is about to change though.
https://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=731-Project-will-bring-living-units-retail-restaurant-and-greenhouse-space-to-Auto-Alley

Metro-wide rail transit is taking a long time to get going.  Oil plays a huge role in this City and the old guard is still pushing buses and BRT while the people are screaming for rail.  Metro-wide rail is still 10 years out.

There are an insane amount of pot dispenseries here.  More than any other state.

Decent hiking is 90 minutes away, and it is all day-hiking.  Wish it was a little closer to the rockies.

[vicupstate]

^^ Pot is legal in OK?

I never heard that before. Is it medical only?

It has been a long time but I was impressed with OKC when I visited years ago. 

[Snaketoz]

It's great to see Kerry posting once again.

[Kerry]

^^ Pot is legal in OK?

I never heard that before. Is it medical only?

It has been a long time but I was impressed with OKC when I visited years ago.

It is medical only, but there are no restrictions or limitations on what "medical" means.  For $32 any state resident can get a medical card for any reason including stress, anxiety, or even loss of appetite.

[thelakelander]

On the Con side, their streetcar layout is poorly designed and operated, but that is what you get when a Citizens over-sight board is in charge and none of them have any transit planning experience.

My guess is that it is an expensive (yet cheaper than the AV thing planned by JTA), slow moving tourist train that shares lanes with cars, while basically looping you around downtown, as opposed to connecting into neighborhoods where more residents live?

[heights unknown]

I still don't know if Jax is ready for the 4 Seasons, but the remainder of the plan looks doable. I do wonder about the new facilities coming so quickly after the flex field at Daily's.  Was that facility not well done or did it not meet the needs it was designed to?   

The way Urban was talking, the new facility will be world class and top level for recruiting and the players, which says to me he feels that flex field does not meet those requirements and is not top level/world class. Just my opinion(s) from what I heard today.

[heights unknown]

Clearly some if you need to take off the teal colored glasses and watch the video again.

1)  The Jags said "good news" all the plumbing, electrical, etc is in good shape so a new staduim isn't needed, saving $700 million.  Then two slides later they say the plumbing, electrical, etc all needs to be replaced.  Well, which is it?

2) The Jags had a must-have list for stadium improvements.  Slipped in there was the comment that everything above the lower bowl would have to replaced.  So the swimming pools and scoreboard that the City spent $80 million on while we were closing 4 libraries will all be torn down - decades BEFORE their service life is over.

3)  While the Jags didn't go into stadium renovation costs, it is a classic money trap.  If the City agrees to any of this then we will also be on the hook for whatever stadium requestv the Jags have, because what are we going to do, tell them No after sinking hundreds of millions of more money into them?

4)  How is any of this better than Lot J?  At least Lot J had a bar complex for averge Jax alcoholic.

5)  in the same breath the Jags walk away from the Flex Field ( that the city owns specifically so the Jags would haven't financial obligation to stay in Jax) they say they want the City to own the new practice facilities.  Do they really think the people of Jax are that stupid?  The answer is yes, they do, because the people in Jax are that stupid.

I could go on and on and on.  This proposal is so insulting and absurd I would have had to get up and walk out of the room.  You want to keep the Jags in Jax?  Then make them own all the team related items.  It is hard to move when you you have $500 million worth of buildings, practice fields, etc that you would have to leave behind.

I agree Kerry, and the last paragraph makes more sense to me than anything; why the City doesn't think like you, or we do, it just befuddles me. Thanks for the elucidation of this issue, Lot J versus Flex Field versus this new proposal.

[Kerry]

On the Con side, their streetcar layout is poorly designed and operated, but that is what you get when a Citizens over-sight board is in charge and none of them have any transit planning experience.

My guess is that it is an expensive (yet cheaper than the AV thing planned by JTA), slow moving tourist train that shares lanes with cars, while basically looping you around downtown, as opposed to connecting into neighborhoods where more residents live?

This could/should be its own thread

[Ken_FSU]

With most of the day to reflect on it, I am extremely impressed with how the Jags have moved forward from the Lot J fiasco and I think - a few quibbles asides - they kind of knocked this one out of the park today.

Some of the biggest complaints with Lot J were:

1) Lack of transparency from the Jags
2) Lack of involvement with the DIA and DDRB
3) Lack of community outreach
4) Shad Khan's absence from the conversation
5) Secretive ROI calculations and cost estimates
6) Failure to address needs at the stadium
7) Disrespect/entitlement toward properties like Met Park
8 ) A cash-heavy financial package that put all of the upfront risk on the city

To a bullet, I think they showed they have learned from these past failures and seem to have put a real good faith effort into doing all of these things right this time.

Starting with the transparency, the presentation was just fantastic in terms of laying everything out in concrete, non-nebulous terms. "This is exactly what the project is going to be. This is what we're asking for. This is why we think it's important. This is why we think it's going to be mutually beneficial for both of us." And they've built a pretty incredible website in support of their 1stDownTown initiative (https://1stdowntownjacksonville.com/) that lays out the Shipyards project and performance center, and charts step-by-step the process the Jags are undertaking with the city to address the future of the stadium. It feels like they're going to make a conscious effort to conduct these discussion in the light of day, rather than in secret.

Where, with Lot J, City Council and the DIA largely found out important project details and financial terms when the development agreement was dumped on their laps by the Jags and Lenny Curry, Mark Lamping/The Jags have been working closely with the DIA and actively engaging both City Council and members of the business community. ROI calculations have been laid out in clear terms for the city to dissect.

Shad Khan bookended the presentation today instead of hiding in the shadows, and even though I think he can lack a bit of self awareness sometimes about how priveleged he can come off, I think he did a good job of reinforcing the franchise's commitment to the Jacksonville market.

I think the Jags were VERY smart to frame the new standalone football facility as a first phase of creating a new, modern NFL compound. Is it convenient that Urban Meyer demanded a standalone facility and it's now phase one of stadium plans? Sure. But it is a legitimate need to remain competitive and further vests the Jags to Jacksonville via the long-term lease on the facility and their $60 million investment. Realistically, we can't expect a new long-term lease on the stadium until upgrades are made, but partnering on an expensive long-term operations facility for the Jags shows good faith from both sides in terms of getting a long-term stadium solution figured out.

Similarly, where Lot J saw the city literally paying to build office space for the Jags, AEW, Bold Events, and other Jags subsidiaries (including furniture), the new proposal sees the Jaguars fully funding construction of their new office space adjacent to the hotel. It's demonstrable skin in the game from Khan. With the old proposal, it was at least plausible to speculate that the Jags were hedging their bets in the event that they decided to relocate when the stadium lease expired. With this proposal, it would be absurd to think that the Jags were literally offering to put between $250 and $300 million of their own cash into a new football operations facility, a new office building, a 20-year committment to Met Park, and a five-star hotel if their intent wasn't to stay. In my opinion, the community should feel pretty good about the Jags commitment to the market after today.

Speaking of Met Park, the Jags were (rightfully) accused in the past of showing entitlement toward our publicly owned urban park. They were (rightfully) criticized for planning development right on top of it with no public discourse. So they've responded with a proposal to adopt the park and marina and turn them into a true asset for the public again. No development on the original 14 acre park. Just improvements. Hard to be mad at that.

Finally, the new term sheet is a complete reversal of what we saw previously. In place of the cash-heavy Lot J deal where the city puts in all of its money upfront, the new Shipyards/Met Park term sheet has only $20 million in public ask on the front end, only $30 million in cash on the back end payable only on completion of the project, and a 20-year $45 million REV grant upon completion that won't cost taxpayers a dime. Just night and day compared to the breadbox bullshit and vague $100 million upfront infrastructure ask from Lot J.

On the standalone football facility, to Mike's point in the previous thread, it's a stretch for the Jags to suggest that the city is required to pay for all of a new facility just because the Jags decide they want it, but I think the 50/50 ask was bound to come eventually as part of stadium talks. No real issue with getting the ball moving on this piece sooner than later, and it sounds there might be some wiggle room to partially fund the city's half from the bed tax.

Lot of naysayers on whether Four Seasons would plant a flag here, or whether the market could support it. At this point, I'm going to trust the guy with $8 billion in the bank who owns the flagship Four Seasons and may soon own a second Four Seasons in Canada. If he pulls it off, even though it won't necessarily be transformational on its own, you've got to think it would have that IKEA effect where it would signal to other developers outside of Jacksonville that we're an up and coming market worth investing in.

Still don't love the idea of turning the Flex Field over to the parks department, but the Jags mentioned that the facility would be available for public use for "300 days a year," suggesting that they still plan to utilize it to some extent. AND, whether they like it or not, if the Jags plan to build a five-star hotel across the street, the Jags have a vested interest in not allowing the flex field to turn into a giant grow room. If 2023 is the target for opening the new football operations facility, that gives us two years to jointly decide how to make the best use of the flex field.

If the Jags are revamping Met Park, there's got to be a way to incorporate the flex field. It's covered greenspace that literally opens up directly to Met Park (though across the street). There's got to be a cool way to integrate it.

As barn-like as she looks closed, she looks really nice open, and could be a genuine extension to Met Park and draw to the area if we can figure out the programming and funding.



The only thing that really seems to be missing from the Phase I vision is the entertainment component. Even though it was pretty clear from Lamping's comment today that the Cordish ship may have sailed, hoping we still see some alternate version of Jacksonville Live! make its way to the sports complex eventually to make the whole thing a little more approachable to the average citizen and to support the ancillarly development in the area (including MOSH, which should have its own news here in the next month or so).

Really great stuff overall today, and with how nasty 2020 and early 2021 got, it's encouraging to see both Curry and the Jags earning some redemption here this month with the gas tax and the new proposal.

[jaxlongtimer]

At this point, I'm going to trust the guy with $8 billion in the bank who owns the flagship Four Seasons and may soon own a second Four Seasons in Canada.

Not sure if you are implying Shad may soon own two Four Seasons in Canada or that the one in Toronto would be his second to one in Jax.  Haven't read or found anything about him possibly having two in Canada.  Where did you pick that up from?  Did he mention it today?

If you were suggesting he doesn't yet own one in Canada, as an FYI, Shad bought the Four Seasons in Toronto in 2016.

Jaguars owner Shad Khan buys Toronto hotel for $171 million

By Roger Bull
Posted Sep 30, 2016 at 9:55 AM

Jaguars owner Shad Khan has added yet another significant asset to his name. Through various family holdings, Khan bought the Four Seasons Hotel Toronto for $225 million Canadian dollars. That's $171.6 million in U.S. dollars.

The hotel had been owned by Kingdom Holding Co., based in Saudi Arabia.

The 55-story hotel has 211 guest rooms and 42 suites in Toronto's downtown Yorkville neighborhood and is the first Canadian hotel to receive five diamonds from AAA and five stars from Forbes. Rooms for Friday night, according to its website, start at $445 U.S....

[jaxlongtimer]

The rendering of the Four Seasons vaguely reminded me of images from somewhere else.  Then it hit me, it's like the end of many of the cruise ships today with their staggered decks!