1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings

[marcuscnelson]

Great points, Ken, and I largely concur. I pointed out on Twitter earlier that it would have been a genuine disaster to blow hundreds of millions on Lot J and then have them come back just months later for this proposal, which likely would have then seen similar terms. We could have been $6-700 million in (including interest) before even talking about the stadium renovations and then the second phases of Lot J and the Shipyards. The turnabout here has the opportunity to build a much more sustainable and productive relationship between the city and the team.

With that said, I look forward to DIA doing, and I mean really doing, their due diligence on this deal and Riverfront. It might be tough to reconcile those plans with the work that's already been done for things like the Landing/Riverfront Plaza and Ford on Bay, not to mention the added factor of the quarter-billion we're spending on the U2C, but I think it's absolutely worth doing. And yeah, there definitely needs to be some kind of pathway to salvaging our investment in the flex field, especially if there are any renovations needed to make it more useful for other purposes.

The only thing that really seems to be missing from the Phase I vision is the entertainment component. Even though it was pretty clear from Lamping's comment today that the Cordish ship may have sailed, hoping we still see some alternate version of Jacksonville Live! make its way to the sports complex eventually to make the whole thing a little more approachable to the average citizen and to support the ancillarly development in the area (including MOSH, which should have its own news here in the next month or so).

Really great stuff overall today, and with how nasty 2020 and early 2021 got, it's encouraging to see both Curry and the Jags earning some redemption here this month with the gas tax and the new proposal.

I've mentioned before that I think it would be in our interest to 1) go ahead and spend the $7 million on dealing with the retention pond next to Lot J. Best case, a new potential development spot (if they can figure out the antenna). Worst case, added parking to make up for whatever's being lost by all the other development. 2) examine the cost of remediating Lot J ourselves. and 3) explore the opportunity for Cordish to consider developing a more accurately-priced project on either the land we remediate or an alternative site. The insistence on "go go go" for the Lot J deal likely prevented a lot of nuance and compromise that could have resulted in a better project. Taking the time to really see what our options are and have a longer-term perspective on developing the neighborhood (not at the expense of the already developing areas of downtown) could be ideal.

And in terms of Curry & the Jags, definitely. There's a lot of excitement with Meyer & Lawrence, and a lot of optimism that they shouldn't squander with another rushed attempt at a bad deal. And Curry seems to be slowing down and thinking a little more about the kind of legacy he wants to leave, and even if I don't agree with him, I can at least respect that. Although who knows, maybe JEA could still drop a bomb on that.

[Ken_FSU]

Not sure if you are implying Shad may soon own two Four Seasons in Canada or that would the one in Toronto would be his second to one in Jax.  Haven't read or found anything about him possibly having two in Canada.  Where did you pick that up from?  Did he mention it today?

Sorry, should have been more clear.

Back in January, a couple of city council members were told that Shad Khan had plans to purchase a second Four Seasons in Canada by end of 2021.

Wasn't specified whether it was Montreal or Whistler.

I don't think it was ever publicized.

But, depending on whether it pans out, if we do see Khan build a Four Seasons in Jax, it could potentially be his third.

[Ken_FSU]

The rendering of the Four Seasons vaguely reminded me of images from somewhere else.  Then it hit me, it's like the end of many of the cruise ships today with their staggered decks!

Yep!

Khan and Lamping are big suckers for using boat-like design language for the Shipyards.

A little on the nose, but I dig it.

You can see the same concept in the original Shipyards renders from the Jags way back in 2015.

[Ken_FSU]

I've mentioned before that I think it would be in our interest to 1) go ahead and spend the $7 million on dealing with the retention pond next to Lot J. Best case, a new potential development spot (if they can figure out the antenna). Worst case, added parking to make up for whatever's being lost by all the other development. 2) examine the cost of remediating Lot J ourselves.

Great point here, Marcus.

Assuming Phase I of the Jags proposal makes it through the DIA - indications are that it makes it through fairly easily is in front of City Council by August - totally agree that covering the retention pond and re-routing stormwater would be $7 million well spent.

Speaking of parking, that's another thing that the Jags appear to have listened to and got right here.

With Phase 1, there doesn't seem to be any indication that the city will need to assume responsibility for any parking garages, which would have been a deal breaker to a guy like Danny Becton.

3) explore the opportunity for Cordish to consider developing a more accurately-priced project on either the land we remediate or an alternative site. The insistence on "go go go" for the Lot J deal likely prevented a lot of nuance and compromise that could have resulted in a better project.

With Cordish, though I think a Live! venue would be fantastic by the stadium, to me it's become increasingly clear over the last six months that they were a genuine bad actor when it came to Lot J.

Looking at the projects the City has partnered with the Jags on that didn't involve Cordish:

With the original round of stadium renovations, the Jags paid half and the city paid half. The agreement was fairly straightforward.

With the second round of stadium renovations (Daily's Place, club seats, flex field), the Jags paid half and the city paid half. The agreement was fairly straightforward.

With the new practice facility proposed, the Jags will pay half and the city will half. Should be a simple agreement.

With this new Shipyards Phase 1, the city throws in $20 million up front to get the site development ready and for partial improvements to the Riverwalk and marina, the Jags spend over $200 million in private investment, and then we give them a $30 million completion grant and $45 million in tax rebates over 20 years. Fairly simple and standard.

When it came to Lot J, however, it feels like Cordish was steering the ship. From the term sheet that mirrored bum deals Cordish made with other cities, to the economic impact study that was basically lifted from the "study" that Cordish's pet firm did for Arlington Live, to the Cordshy parking garage arrangements that other cities are still struggling with, to the contractual obligations to subsidize future development, in retrospect, the entire thing felt Cordish boilerplate, with the Jags basically acting as a middleman.

To me, it feels like Cordish saw Jacksonville as an easy mark to fleece with a lot available, free land to develop and milk over the next 20 years.

You could tell by Lamping's off hand comment today he doesn't have particularly warm feelings about Cordish when it comes to Lot J.

As Lot J fell apart in January, there was a buzz that the Jags were willing to make MAJOR concessions on things that Cordish was not, eventually leading to the downfall of the entire project.

Would love to see Jacksonville Live! at the Sports complex, but with some distance, Cordish did seem a bit parasitic.

[marcuscnelson]

Re: Cordish, all fair points. I guess that's why I said explore the opportunity. If it turns out that they're not interested in having a realistic discussion, then I don't see why we couldn't piecemeal the effort ourselves. It's not exactly Hudson Yards or anything. We could probably find some developers to parcel out two multifamily buildings, a hotel, and an entertainment complex to (assuming we couldn't, say, figure out a way to repurpose the flex field as such), especially seeing as they'd get to be across the street from the Jaguars and Four Seasons.

Hell, if we do it right, maybe we can take that experience and leverage it in the Northbank, LaVilla, or other neighborhoods.

[vicupstate]

So the REV grant will be from property taxes paid on the office building and hotel?

The city paying for remediation and some infrastructure is pretty normal considering they own the land. I don't think this is a massive commitment to stay in Jacksonville though. That $120 million facility comes to almost $1000 a SF. The land is free, too, so that is a massive amount. I have a hard time believing it will cost much more than the city's share in reality. The $4 million for Met Park is a rounding error in a project this big. The city's investment in the Jags will go up significantly thus making it harder to not accept whatever the Jags ask for when the stadium negotiations come up. The Jags commitment really is represented almost exclusively by the hotel and office building, and even that is subsidized.   

The whole Flex field issue is just plain weird. Can someone explain why FOUR practice fields are necessary? The average person in Jacksonville that doesn't attend the games will see little benefit from this unless it really opens the door to a lot more development overall.

Someone mentioned that the idea of putting a convention center at the Shipyards was out of the picture, but there is clearly a 'Future phase' building on the river with a massive footprint, so I think it is still in the eventual plans.   

While this is a lot better deal than Lot J, I would look very, very hard at the details and how the rubber is going to meet the road. Also, no 'bait and switch' renderings allowed as was done with Flex field.     

[JBTripper]

While I'm not crazy about the quick abandonment of the Flex Field, I'm not sure it's such a big waste. IIRC, the Flex Field was funded as part of a $90 million project that included the club renovations, the new south end zone tunnel and the amphitheater. I would think the amphitheater and the club reno took up the lion's share of that figure. For context, UF's indoor practice facility, which is pretty much a pre-fab warehouse with a brick facade and some bay doors, cost $15 million. The flex field, which is essentially steel and stretched canvas, is even more bare bones than that. It's a waste to be tossing it aside so quickly, but I don't think it was the massive investment many are assuming. And with the Jaguars all the way out of it, it opens it up to more non-Jaguar events that were promised at construction but haven't really materialized.

[JPalmer]

Could the flex field not be converted to something similar to a Cordish Live Arena? Seems possible to me.

[Ken_FSU]

While I'm not crazy about the quick abandonment of the Flex Field, I'm not sure it's such a big waste. IIRC, the Flex Field was funded as part of a $90 million project that included the club renovations, the new south end zone tunnel and the amphitheater. I would think the amphitheater and the club reno took up the lion's share of that figure. For context, UF's indoor practice facility, which is pretty much a pre-fab warehouse with a brick facade and some bay doors, cost $15 million. The flex field, which is essentially steel and stretched canvas, is even more bare bones than that. It's a waste to be tossing it aside so quickly, but I don't think it was the massive investment many are assuming. And with the Jaguars all the way out of it, it opens it up to more non-Jaguar events that were promised at construction but haven't really materialized.

Cost breakdown in the original agreement was:

- $45 million for the the amp
- $25 million for club seats
- $20 for the flex field

In reality, I'd imagine all three came in lower than that.

[vicupstate]

And with the Jaguars all the way out of it, it opens it up to more non-Jaguar events that were promised at construction but haven't really materialized.

The Jags still get to use it for 65 days out of the year. I have to wonder if FL/GA and Gator Bowl are not some of those days.

[Steve]

The whole Flex field issue is just plain weird. Can someone explain why FOUR practice fields are necessary? The average person in Jacksonville that doesn't attend the games will see little benefit from this unless it really opens the door to a lot more development overall.

3-4 fields does seem to be the number I see in the NFL. The Falcons have 3 outdoor fields with 1 indoor. Now, them (like a number of NFL teams) have their facility WAY outside of the City. The Falcons are in Flowery Branch, 45+ miles from their stadium. This is actually very common in the NFL (and yes, some of the small communities have contributed tax money fur building it.

There's admittedly a part of me that's pleasantly surprised the Jags DIDN'T go that route. That doesn't mean throw the book at them, but I like the fact that the facility is adjacent to the stadium (and I really don't get the practical logistics of having a training facility that far from your home stadium).

[fsu813]

As Lot J fell apart in January, there was a buzz that the Jags were willing to make MAJOR concessions on things that Cordish was not, eventually leading to the downfall of the entire project.

Correct.

Ie, Jags were fine with being transparent with the financials, Cordish was not.

[jaxjags]

Yes. Lamping said during question period, this will be much better than Lot J with only 2 parties involved. Cordish was an issue with financial transparency and negotiations, but Iguana and City both taking a better approach on this.

I'm sure Khan/Iguana will finance their portion of the investment, but given his net worth this is much like buying a house or a car for the "average" person. Look at the ask for Phase 1. If Ken is correct this less than the D&B incentives.

[Ken_FSU]

Curry on the new development vs. Lot J, from the Biz Journal.

"I think it's a lesson learned coming out of Lot J. I'm grateful that we had 12 votes. The reality is we needed 13 votes on it. And, maybe, if we had done some things a little bit differently — as this process has been — maybe it would have passed."

It's not much, but about as close as I've ever seen to Curry accepting a small sliver of blame for something.

I like it.

Curry's got a real chance here between now and 2023 to earn some redemption.

Between the gas tax, his early approach to this new development, and his calmer approach on social media from what I've seen, I'm liking 2021 Curry a lot more than 2019-2020 Curry.

[heights unknown]

Curry on the new development vs. Lot J, from the Biz Journal.

"I think it's a lesson learned coming out of Lot J. I'm grateful that we had 12 votes. The reality is we needed 13 votes on it. And, maybe, if we had done some things a little bit differently — as this process has been — maybe it would have passed."

It's not much, but about as close as I've ever seen to Curry accepting a small sliver of blame for something.

I like it.

Curry's got a real chance here between now and 2023 to earn some redemption.

Between the gas tax, his early approach to this new development, and his calmer approach on social media from what I've seen, I'm liking 2021 Curry a lot more than 2019-2020 Curry.

I don't. Send him packing. And don't come back.