1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings

[Wacca Pilatka]

Doesn't Shad already own a Four Seasons?

Yes, in Toronto I think.

[jaxlongtimer]

But I wanted to commend those in our public offices that made the deciding vote to reject the plans prior because of financial obligations that would burden the city or how the deal was laid out or any other of the myriad of reasons.  You see how excited and positive the first few comments are on here (and many more on social media).  This is what it's about and why we have the DDRB, DIA, Council to review these types of projects.

It doesn't get to this point without these integral roles who can scrutinize, debate, and ultimate decide on this type of stuff. Again, long road ahead but I don't think it will be as turbulent as the last few times.

As I have noted before, I think that the Council did a favor for Shad killing Lot J.  He never came here and personally fought for it and he never appeared to lose any sleep over its defeat.  Reading between the lines, I think he realized he was asking for something that, upon reflection, he was glad not to get.  Having Lamping and Harden fight for it to the end was possibly just window dressing so didn't have to admit a mistake.  Further proof is this comeback which, for him and the City, is a much better plan. 

Wondering what the Doro developer thinks of this.

Reposting on this thread:
Just wondering... with the removal of the Hart Bridge ramps, how will the increased traffic in this area from Shad's planned development impact the traffic flow off of/on to the bridge?  How is it working during Stadium, Arena, Baseball and Daily's events so far?

[WarDamJagFan]

Can we at least have 40 more renderings before the City pulls the plug again?

[Kerry]

Clearly some if you need to take off the teal colored glasses and watch the video again.

1)  The Jags said "good news" all the plumbing, electrical, etc is in good shape so a new staduim isn't needed, saving $700 million.  Then two slides later they say the plumbing, electrical, etc all needs to be replaced.  Well, which is it?

2) The Jags had a must-have list for stadium improvements.  Slipped in there was the comment that everything above the lower bowl would have to replaced.  So the swimming pools and scoreboard that the City spent $80 million on while we were closing 4 libraries will all be torn down - decades BEFORE their service life is over.

3)  While the Jags didn't go into stadium renovation costs, it is a classic money trap.  If the City agrees to any of this then we will also be on the hook for whatever stadium requestv the Jags have, because what are we going to do, tell them No after sinking hundreds of millions of more money into them?

4)  How is any of this better than Lot J?  At least Lot J had a bar complex for averge Jax alcoholic.

5)  in the same breath the Jags walk away from the Flex Field ( that the city owns specifically so the Jags would haven't financial obligation to stay in Jax) they say they want the City to own the new practice facilities.  Do they really think the people of Jax are that stupid?  The answer is yes, they do, because the people in Jax are that stupid.

I could go on and on and on.  This proposal is so insulting and absurd I would have had to get up and walk out of the room.  You want to keep the Jags in Jax?  Then make them own all the team related items.  It is hard to move when you you have $500 million worth of buildings, practice fields, etc that you would have to leave behind.

[CityLife]

The architecture for this and the Atkins plans are both incredible and on a completely different level than anything we've seen in Jax in modern times. Will be interested to see the final ask on both, but at least these guys are aiming high with their concepts.

I'll say something that I've said to clients on the private side of land development and as a planning director on the public side. Once you show renderings to the public to attempt to get buy in on a project, you CANNOT ever backtrack and show renderings of a lower quality product. There are some well run and highly desirable municipalities in Florida that will straight up kill your project if you pull stunts like that.

Jax's leaders and the DIA need to be clear with Khan that there is no going backwards or value engineering at this point. That was ultimately one of the things that I think killed Lot J. Hopefully Khan and co have learned their lesson there.

[Kerry]

The architecture for this and the Atkins plans are both incredible and on a completely different level than anything we've seen in Jax in modern times. Will be interested to see the final ask on both, but at least these guys are aiming high with their concepts.

I'll say something that I've said to clients on the private side of land development and as a planning director on the public side. Once you show renderings to the public to attempt to get buy in on a project, you CANNOT ever backtrack and show renderings of a lower quality product. There are some well run and highly desirable municipalities in Florida that will straight up kill your project if you pull stunts like that.

Jax's leaders and the DIA need to be clear with Khan that there is no going backwards or value engineering at this point. That was ultimately one of the things that I think killed Lot J. Hopefully Khan and co have learned their lesson there.

You must be new to Jacksonville.  In 2 years the Four Seasons will be a Motel 6 and the subsidy request will have gone up 20%

[fieldafm]

I could go on and on and on. 

Maybe you should take your own advice:

I'll go back into retirement with this closing thought.

[CityLife]

The architecture for this and the Atkins plans are both incredible and on a completely different level than anything we've seen in Jax in modern times. Will be interested to see the final ask on both, but at least these guys are aiming high with their concepts.

I'll say something that I've said to clients on the private side of land development and as a planning director on the public side. Once you show renderings to the public to attempt to get buy in on a project, you CANNOT ever backtrack and show renderings of a lower quality product. There are some well run and highly desirable municipalities in Florida that will straight up kill your project if you pull stunts like that.

Jax's leaders and the DIA need to be clear with Khan that there is no going backwards or value engineering at this point. That was ultimately one of the things that I think killed Lot J. Hopefully Khan and co have learned their lesson there.

You must be new to Jacksonville.  In 2 years the Four Seasons will be a Motel 6.

Uhhhh, I know how things work in Jax. Hence why the point was made in the first place. Jax's leaders need to no longer allow themselves and the public to get played.

[thelakelander]

Reposting on this thread:
Just wondering... with the removal of the Hart Bridge ramps, how will the increased traffic in this area from Shad's planned development impact the traffic flow off of/on to the bridge?  How is it working during Stadium, Arena, Baseball and Daily's events so far?

It's still under construction and the last year has been impacted by Covid. Nevertheless, one thing I see in this plan is that the proposed driveways don't align well with the Hart Bridge ramp revamp:



If you're traveling westbound, it doesn't look like you'll be able to make a left turn into this development. If you're on the on-ramp at APR heading east, you could have cars pulling out in front of you, as you speed up to merge into eastbound expressway traffic coming down the ramp.

[Charles Hunter]

"Must be a 5-star hotel"  Does that have to mean a rating?

Is that like the famous "Four Seasons Landscaping" maybe "Billy Bob's 5-Star Hotel and Taxidermy"

[G.O.D.F.A.T.H.A.]

This won't mean a thing to Jacksonville, because its too spread out.  Nobody is going to travel all the way across the bridge just to see a mediocre football team win 5-6 games each season.

[jaxjags]

I like this plan and believe the Jaguars, Shad and City will get more benefits from this than Lot J.

Some interesting comments/differences from Lot J that will make a difference in viability and public support.

1. The Jaguars must go through DIA for financials and designs form the start. ++++
2. Lamping said with a chuckle, better to have only ONE partner, Shad.
3. Iguana will upgrade and maintain Met Park. Better for Shad and the public. Obviously Shad doesn't want "an existing Met Park" beside a Four Seasons. Time to get a Kids Kampus back into park.
4. Four Seasons (as well as most hotel) do not build the hotels. Owner/operators do. I'm sure Shad or Lamping have already discussed with Four Season about this hotel. He said that he alone is responsible for it's financial success.
5. Although Shad would not discuss the term sheet yet (that's good. let DIA do their thing) Lamping did say that a substantial part of the Shipyards investment will come from Shad/Iguana.

[Kerry]

The wife and I relocated part-time and this is probably just the kind of proposal that will seal the deal to relocate full-time.

Was wondering  where you went. Where did you end up relocating to?  Hope you are pleased with your decision.

We have spent the past 6 months "trying out" different cities.  Like the Jags, we also have a check list.  Right now we have an apartment in downtown Oklahoma City.  To parahrase former Bogota mayor Enrique Penalosa, a City is just a means to a way of life.  Figure out how you want to live then move to a City that has that.

Not sure where we go after OKC, but that is why we are on an expedition of discovery.

[jaxlongtimer]

Clearly some if you need to take off the teal colored glasses and watch the video again.

1)  The Jags said "good news" all the plumbing, electrical, etc is in good shape so a new staduim isn't needed, saving $700 million.  Then two slides later they say the plumbing, electrical, etc all needs to be replaced.  Well, which is it?

2) The Jags had a must-have list for stadium improvements.  Slipped in there was the comment that everything above the lower bowl would have to replaced.  So the swimming pools and scoreboard that the City spent $80 million on while we were closing 4 libraries will all be torn down - decades BEFORE their service life is over.

3)  While the Jags didn't go into stadium renovation costs, it is a classic money trap.  If the City agrees to any of this then we will also be on the hook for whatever stadium requestv the Jags have, because what are we going to do, tell them No after sinking hundreds of millions of more money into them?

4)  How is any of this better than Lot J?  At least Lot J had a bar complex for averge Jax alcoholic.

5)  in the same breath the Jags walk away from the Flex Field ( that the city owns specifically so the Jags would haven't financial obligation to stay in Jax) they say they want the City to own the new practice facilities.  Do they really think the people of Jax are that stupid?  The answer is yes, they do, because the people in Jax are that stupid.

I could go on and on and on.  This proposal is so insulting and absurd I would have had to get up and walk out of the room.  You want to keep the Jags in Jax?  Then make them own all the team related items.  It is hard to move when you you have $500 million worth of buildings, practice fields, etc that you would have to leave behind.

Interesting tidbits.  As always, the devil is in the details.  All these proposals sound great on Day One.  It's like a first date!  Once we get know them better, they might not be as exciting.  I do think the Jags should put all the cards on the table regarding stadium needs and other matters so we can see this holistically in the best interest of all parties involved.  A piece meal approach is not smart.

[Steve]

1)  The Jags said "good news" all the plumbing, electrical, etc is in good shape so a new staduim isn't needed, saving $700 million.  Then two slides later they say the plumbing, electrical, etc all needs to be replaced.  Well, which is it?

I'll rewatch the video. With that said, replacing core systems in a building approaching 30 years old isn't shocking.

2) The Jags had a must-have list for stadium improvements.  Slipped in there was the comment that everything above the lower bowl would have to replaced.  So the swimming pools and scoreboard that the City spent $80 million on while we were closing 4 libraries will all be torn down - decades BEFORE their service life is over.

The Pools and Cabana Structure is part of the Lower Bowl. This would be the East and West upper decks and Potentially the Press/Suite Level. Note one of the Upper Decks (believe the West) dates to 1983

3)  While the Jags didn't go into stadium renovation costs, it is a classic money trap.  If the City agrees to any of this then we will also be on the hook for whatever stadium requestv the Jags have, because what are we going to do, tell them No after sinking hundreds of millions of more money into them?

You are likely right in some respects. It would be silly to do the practice facility then just do nothing on the stadium. With that said, this is a million times more palatable than Lot J. But I acknowledge your point.

4)  How is any of this better than Lot J?  At least Lot J had a bar complex for averge Jax alcoholic.

No stupid Breadbox Loan, Way less up front money, and the entire premise behind Lot J was stupid (that last one is my opinion)

5)  in the same breath the Jags walk away from the Flex Field ( that the city owns specifically so the Jags would haven't financial obligation to stay in Jax) they say they want the City to own the new practice facilities.  Do they really think the people of Jax are that stupid?  The answer is yes, they do, because the people in Jax are that stupid.

Your Flex Field comment is one of the things that I'm having a hard time with on this proposal, and I mentioned that previously (here or in another thread). But the difference is that the city has an opportunity to tie them to a long term lease. I'm okay with that.

It is hard to move when you you have $500 million worth of buildings, practice fields, etc that you would have to leave behind.

It depends if another city would build all of that for them. Which some definitely would.