8 Facts You Didn't Know About Our Beaches!

[Gunnar]

If it is built, it should be extended to JIA and why not set it up to allow connecting St. Augustine (South) / Clay County and Fernandina Beach and Brunswick, GA (North) in the future ?

[CCMjax]

If it is built, it should be extended to JIA and why not set it up to allow connecting St. Augustine (South) / Clay County and Fernandina Beach and Brunswick, GA (North) in the future ?

That would be the idea, but most cities typically start with one line going from one suburban location to downtown, like what Charlotte and Orlando did.  Then eventually extend it and add other lines (Charlotte is currently extending theirs northward toward UNC Charlotte's campus).  It is a slow process and one big question is what is the best starter route.  My guess is there would be four major phases in Jax in no particular order or relation to each other . . . 1. Jax Beach to DT, 2. extension of that line from downtown to Orange Park, 3. St. Augustine to DT, 4. extension of that line north to JIA.

[CCMjax]

If rail was run between DT and the Beaches, the value in the JTB corridor would be significantly higher ridership. There's no real critical mass of destinations between DT and the beaches on Atlantic or Beach, unless we start counting Walmarts and strip malls.  With JTB, you could have stops within walking distance of Southpoint's office complexes, St. Luke's, Florida Blue/Deerwood Park, SJTC, UNF and Mayo Clinic.  In a sense, it's a suburban corridor that's pretty similar to the San Diego Trolley's Green Line LRT.

It just seems like quite a hike from any sort of station on JTB to those destinations in the Southside in 95 degree heat and I'm wondering if people would even take it.  Lots of people and places but it's kind of poorly laid out.  There would have to be a lot of thought as to how to efficiently serve that area.  You would have to have feeder buses, trolleys etc and by that point maybe the highway serves it better.  Beach and Atlantic I think have the opportunity to have denser development right up on the corridor to more efficiently feed the line.  I'm thinking hypothetically with zoning changes 30 years down the road what kind of development might start to evolve, not what it currently is with the Walmarts and stip centers.  None of the routes are ideal right now in my opinion.

By the way, UNF stretches all the way up to Beach and that end of campus is kind of where the main events and most of the buildings are located.  It kind of sucks because it really is between Beach and Butler and not right on either one.  There is also FSCJ right across the street on Beach.  DT Jax Beach is on Beach.

[Gunnar]

If it is built, it should be extended to JIA and why not set it up to allow connecting St. Augustine (South) / Clay County and Fernandina Beach and Brunswick, GA (North) in the future ?

That would be the idea, but most cities typically start with one line going from one suburban location to downtown, like what Charlotte and Orlando did.  Then eventually extend it and add other lines (Charlotte is currently extending theirs northward toward UNC Charlotte's campus).  It is a slow process and one big question is what is the best starter route.  My guess is there would be four major phases in Jax in no particular order or relation to each other . . . 1. Jax Beach to DT, 2. extension of that line from downtown to Orange Park, 3. St. Augustine to DT, 4. extension of that line north to JIA.

Totally agree on the approach - I just think it's important to plan it with these extensions in mind from the start.
Wouldn't it make sense to start with  JIA - DT (particularly the new transportation center with connections to local and long distance busses) - Beaches ? I feel that the connection to local transportation hubs is important in adding value for everyone in the region.

[thelakelander]

If rail was run between DT and the Beaches, the value in the JTB corridor would be significantly higher ridership. There's no real critical mass of destinations between DT and the beaches on Atlantic or Beach, unless we start counting Walmarts and strip malls.  With JTB, you could have stops within walking distance of Southpoint's office complexes, St. Luke's, Florida Blue/Deerwood Park, SJTC, UNF and Mayo Clinic.  In a sense, it's a suburban corridor that's pretty similar to the San Diego Trolley's Green Line LRT.

It just seems like quite a hike from any sort of station on JTB to those destinations in the Southside in 95 degree heat and I'm wondering if people would even take it.  Lots of people and places but it's kind of poorly laid out.  There would have to be a lot of thought as to how to efficiently serve that area.  You would have to have feeder buses, trolleys etc and by that point maybe the highway serves it better.  Beach and Atlantic I think have the opportunity to have denser development right up on the corridor to more efficiently feed the line.  I'm thinking hypothetically with zoning changes 30 years down the road what kind of development might start to evolve, not what it currently is with the Walmarts and stip centers.  None of the routes are ideal right now in my opinion.

By the way, UNF stretches all the way up to Beach and that end of campus is kind of where the main events and most of the buildings are located.  It kind of sucks because it really is between Beach and Butler and not right on either one.  There is also FSCJ right across the street on Beach.  DT Jax Beach is on Beach.

With LRT (building commuter rail would not make sense between DT and the beaches), your stop spacing will be roughly every 0.5 to 1 mile. JTB has actual destinations that could align with stop locations. Beach and Atlantic are strip mall central and will be for the foreseeable future. Also, it's more important for a rail corridor to directly penetrate as many pedestrian scale spots as possible, than running in a straight line. Thus, to get to DT Jax Beach, just run it north up San Pablo or 3rd Street.

Btw, yes I do agree that none of these corridors are ideal right now. Rail between DT and the beach is pretty unrealistic in a small community like ours. The distance is too great and the density is too low. The Green Line works in San Diego because that community spent the first 20 years building up and establishing an efficient LRT network in its core, before attempting to tackle/connect the burbs. Below, a few pics of San Diego's suburban green line:


stop at the Fashion Valley Mall parking lot.


Stop across the street from Hazard Center.


A model of a stop and 950-unit Promenade Rio Vista Apartments TOD.


Promenade Rio Vista Apartments in real life now.


LRT line and shared use path bridge over a road like Southside Boulevard.


Green Line terminates into a shopping center.


Santee Trolley Square stop.

[CCMjax]

If it is built, it should be extended to JIA and why not set it up to allow connecting St. Augustine (South) / Clay County and Fernandina Beach and Brunswick, GA (North) in the future ?

That would be the idea, but most cities typically start with one line going from one suburban location to downtown, like what Charlotte and Orlando did.  Then eventually extend it and add other lines (Charlotte is currently extending theirs northward toward UNC Charlotte's campus).  It is a slow process and one big question is what is the best starter route.  My guess is there would be four major phases in Jax in no particular order or relation to each other . . . 1. Jax Beach to DT, 2. extension of that line from downtown to Orange Park, 3. St. Augustine to DT, 4. extension of that line north to JIA.

Totally agree on the approach - I just think it's important to plan it with these extensions in mind from the start.
Wouldn't it make sense to start with  JIA - DT (particularly the new transportation center with connections to local and long distance busses) - Beaches ? I feel that the connection to local transportation hubs is important in adding value for everyone in the region.

Not enough dense populations toward and around the airport.  Travelling downtown from the airport really isn't bad right now.  Same reason Charlotte did not decide to connect their airport first.  And they have a much busier airport and downtown than we do.

[Know Growth]

I knew someone with 500 acres near the airport and he was so upset at dashed development aspirations.

And also the person that aspired for the development of his Talbot State Park inholding....yep.....right there on the Duval/Nassau line area,the northerly tip of Talbot State Park. ("little" or "big" Talbot???...I am still not grasping the titles,though I know the area intimately  )
The plans called for a Marina. I worked behind the scenes....what a crock the proposal was.......destroying the very destination of so many boaters.

Both of these guys complained mightily about government intervention and tree huggers.

Good reminder that our regional Beaches landscape is the result of past vision,battles.

Thank you,for instance,for Lenore McCullaugh. (Talbot)

[Gunnar]

...northerly tip of Talbot State Park. ("little" or "big" Talbot???...I am still not grasping the titles,though I know the area intimately  )

I think Big Talbot island is actually the smaller park / beach (with all the dead trees on it) and Little Talbot island is the bigger park / beach. That's at least how I try to remember it since I would always mix the two up.

In any case, I am glad they have not managed to destroy that area yet like they did between Jax Beach and St. Augustine.

[Tacachale]

...northerly tip of Talbot State Park. ("little" or "big" Talbot???...I am still not grasping the titles,though I know the area intimately  )

I think Big Talbot island is actually the smaller park / beach (with all the dead trees on it) and Little Talbot island is the bigger park / beach. That's at least how I try to remember it since I would always mix the two up.

In any case, I am glad they have not managed to destroy that area yet like they did between Jax Beach and St. Augustine.

Sort of. The "Boneyard Beach" access is a relatively small part of the larger Big Talbot Island State Park.

[Gunnar]

Seems like I was judging it by the beach size only then

[Tacachale]

Periodic erosion and the associated renourishment projects is a necessity brought on by the construction of the jetties in the 19th century. Even if we scaled back on construction near the shoreline, we'd still have to dredge and renourish. It's possible bulkheads may be in our future.

[Tacachale]

Periodic erosion and the associated renourishment projects is a necessity brought on by the construction of the jetties in the 19th century. Even if we scaled back on construction near the shoreline, we'd still have to dredge and renourish. It's possible bulkheads may be in our future.

Have you seen the flooding in riverside and springfield lately?  the dog park has been a mudbog for two weeks.

Yeah, San Marco has been pretty awful too.