Downtown Gamechanger

[CCMjax]

mtraininjax, your comparison of FSCJ with UNF says you don't really understand the difference between the two. They (FSCJ) simply can't be compared to UNF, especially when discussing the possibility of bringing some life and vitality to downtown Jacksonville.

I'll also say that the Town Center adjacent to UNF has very little to do with UNF, per se, and everything to do with its location in the growth center of this metropolitan area.

Lastly, if Jacksonville University was forward-thinking they'd be looking to sell their entire Arlington campus (or partner in its development, commercially / residentially, etc.) and move to the urban core -- especially while so many incentives (goodwill and otherwise) exist to try and assist them in their effort, if chosen, to become a true "urban" university. It's a natural evolution that should be seriously considered while The Shipyards and Healthy Town, etc., are being dreamed into existence.

I seriously doubt JU has any plans to move fully downtown. They keep buying up adjacent land in Arlington and building new dormitories, not to mention that they've doubled down on their effort to reach back into the community and help improve the surrounding neighborhoods.

Yeah I worked on the dorm they just built.  Doesn't seem like they would abandon ship and move completely to downtown with the work they are doing.  I think they will eventually occupy part of a single building downtown with some sort of program like every other university is doing in other cities.  Same goes for UNF, it's just a matter of when.  I'm not talking about an entire campus per se, maybe just a few floors in a building like the Barnett like they had planned or maybe one newly constructed joint venture building. 

As far as JU and Arlington - Nice setting on the campus, dismal neighborhood for college students though.  Good grief they need to do something to offer more to the student body, I'll bet there are loads of potential students opting to go elsewhere strictly because the neighborhood offers them absolutely zero in terms of things students look for around their campus . . . nightlife, culture, local hangouts and just an interesting progressive vibe.  The one thing it has is being on the water.  It is just far enough from downtown that it is sort of an inconvenience to go there and you have to drive.  Arlington is a microcosm of the city of Jacksonville . . . the infrastructure layout and potential are there but it is slothy in its active progression and the right kinds of development just haven't happened.  And zoning policies have made it unattractive.

Same goes for UNF, I'm sure a lot of potential students pass on it because it isn't close to any neighborhood, just a mall.

[Tacachale]

JU is not leaving Arlington. Too much invested there and they continue to do more.

UNF is not going to add classes or students downtown anytime soon. The mission is currently to focus on building up the campus we have. That said, a number of downtown investors are always pushing us to expand downtown in some way, but the company line is that we can't do anything that would take away from the core campus. I think ultimately, we may add a branch downtown focusing on night and grad courses to serve Downtown and Westside workers who can't make it out to the Southside. UNC Charlotte has done similar with an uptown campus. But that would be a long way off. We do/have held art classes at MOCA Jax, but interest has been pretty limited.

Discounting FSCJ is silly. For one thing, many community colleges do have student housing, and in fact UNF allowed FSCJ students to reside on campus until recently, when we ran out of space. For another, FSCJ's Downtown campus has been pretty quite mostly because it's been dominated by vocational and GED work. Nothing wrong with that, but it's clearly not going to draw lots of 24/7 students. What they're talking about doing now is investing more into the campus, including moving the entire culinary program. Is it going to be a silver bullet? No, but it's going to be a net positive.

[CityLife]

Jax's most realistic chance at growing a school in DT is FSCJ. Yeah, it's not UF or Harvard but it can have more of an economic impact than it does today. Their plans to add student housing and a culinary school in downtown should become a great start.

Nah, it's Florida Coastal.  That school may eventually outgrow its space and it makes sense to be downtown amongst the law firms and courthouses.

Given the recent struggles of for profit colleges and Florida Coastal's struggles to place debt ridden graduates in decent jobs, I would say the school is much more likely to flounder in coming years than it is to grow. That probably wouldn't be a bad thing for the quality of the legal profession in town....

I agree that FSCJ probably has the best chance to grow a large campus downtown. UNF is considered by many around the state to be a "beach school". A lot of its students live at the beach or as close to the beach as they can afford to. Many of them come from beach towns around the state. Maybe Tacachale can provide some facts, but my impression of UNF's student population, is that a substantial amount come from the coastal counties in the state between Palm Beach and Volusia County. In other words, they come to UNF for the beach, not for urban living.

FSCJ on the other hand, has a chance to build and create programs that would attract urban dwellers like: arts, culinary, graphic design, etc. Plus a lot of FSCJ students currently live in areas of town that are not as desirable to live as downtown, Riverside and Springfield are. It would likely be a lot easier to lure them downtown from Mandarin, the westside, Arlington, etc, than it would be to lure UNF students from the beach or from their apartment complexes on the southside.

[spuwho]

Turn FBC into Broward Baptist University.

Then the downtown properties will become a true 7 day a week locale instead of the 2 day a week it is now.

800 to 1200 students.  All downtown. All the time.

[thelakelander]

FSCJ has several 4-year programs but here's a recent article about the growth in on-campus housing at community colleges across the country.

Dorms Help Give 2-Year Colleges a 4-Year Feel

Dorm living is a rite of passage for students at most four-year colleges. But community college students have largely missed out on that experience – until recently.

About 25 percent of two-year colleges in the U.S. now offer on-campus housing, according to data from the American Association of Community Colleges.

Between 2000 and 2010, 43 community colleges added new student housing, the association reports. And that figure continues to grow.

Full article: http://www.usnews.com/education/community-colleges/articles/2015/02/09/dorms-help-give-2-year-colleges-a-4-year-feel

[ProjectMaximus]

The main reason community colleges (at least in FL) were allowed to grant more 4-year degrees was because the State University System of Florida was unable to handle the huge influx of new undergrads coming through the in-state pipeline. Previously, graduating with an associates degree from a Florida CC guaranteed admission into one of Florida's state universities. Since they could no longer promise that, they had to come up with a way to obtain a bachelors for those who wanted one. In that vein, I think you're seeing them also serve these traditional students with a more traditional college environment.

[RattlerGator]

Not to insult anyone but, yes, the discussion about FSCJ *is* silly. I'm not dismissive of what they want to do nor what they can do, but they can't do what I'm talking about. Ennis, with all due respect, you don't understand the potential that already exists in this city if that is your mindset. And it can't be Florida Coastal; law schools are in trouble all over the country and are in a downward spiral. It has to be J.U. and or UNF and or Flagler (or some combo of all three).

And yes, many kids do come to UNF for its easy access to the Beach. Great. No one wants to fight that. Such an attractive feature, however, is also why a downtown campus could and would *also* work for UNF. Do a comparison of the growth of UCF and USF with UNF. Our local university can easily grow downtown. Build a big dorm downtown and X number of students would flock to that dorm. Work out an agreement like they have in Gainesville with the bus company (students ride free because a set amount of student fees annually cover them), increase the routes that regularly run from downtown out to UNF, and you'd have much traffic between downtown and the core campus.

If J.U. was smart, they'd move into the core. Fully or partially. That Arlington location has never really worked for them, has it? But no, I don't expect them to do that.

My focus is the University of North Florida. If UNF was smart, they'd seriously try and figure out a way to move their College of Business, at a minimum, into the core. FSU is pinning much of its upcoming pitch for private money by developing the area around the Civic Center and trying to force-spread that development down from the shadow of the Supreme Court and the State Capitol all the way west to Doak Campbell Stadium (they are calling it the "Madison Mile" -- the corridor runs along Madison Street). The catalyst for them is moving their biggest academic college, the College of Business, off of center campus and out adjacent to the Civic Center.

Surely the people at UNF are aware of what FSU is doing, or what UF is doing with their exciting Innovation Hub, etc. Both universities are actively trying to be change agents for their local center cities. None of the stuff I'm talking about is radical or crazy. It just takes vision, and UNF has to think much bigger than they've been thinking. The Shipyards or Healthy Town offer them that opportunity. We've never demanded much of our local State University System institution. That has to change and it has to change now.

[thelakelander]

Not to insult anyone but, yes, the discussion about FSCJ *is* silly. I'm not dismissive of what they want to do nor what they can do, but they can't do what I'm talking about. Ennis, with all due respect, you don't understand the potential that already exists in this city if that is your mindset. And it can't be Florida Coastal; law schools are in trouble all over the country and are in a downward spiral. It has to be J.U. and or UNF and or Flagler (or some combo of all three).

Two questions to help me understand your perspective:

1. Can you elaborate on the potential that exists?

2. Why these particular schools?

And yes, many kids do come to UNF for its easy access to the Beach. Great. No one wants to fight that. Such an attractive feature, however, is also why a downtown campus could and would *also* work for UNF. Do a comparison of the growth of UCF and USF with UNF. Our local university can easily grow downtown. Build a big dorm downtown and X number of students would flock to that dorm. Work out an agreement like they have in Gainesville with the bus company (students ride free because a set amount of student fees annually cover them), increase the routes that regularly run from downtown out to UNF, and you'd have much traffic between downtown and the core campus.

Not knowing the answer to the two questions, I'll mention that USF doesn't have housing in DT Tampa. However, DT Tampa does have the University of Tampa. It's been there since 1933 and is about twice the size of JU. However, it hasn't had the impact that SCAD has had in Savannah's historic district. Why would JU be any different?

If J.U. was smart, they'd move into the core. Fully or partially. That Arlington location has never really worked for them, has it? But no, I don't expect them to do that.

JU seems to be committed to investing in and improving the neighborhood around them. With their recent expansions, it's hard to say things haven't worked out for them. I know there's been talk of them establishing some sort of downtown Jax connection but it's hard to see anything significant happening anytime soon.

My focus is the University of North Florida. If UNF was smart, they'd seriously try and figure out a way to move their College of Business, at a minimum, into the core. FSU is pinning much of its upcoming pitch for private money by developing the area around the Civic Center and trying to force-spread that development down from the shadow of the Supreme Court and the State Capitol all the way west to Doak Campbell Stadium (they are calling it the "Madison Mile" -- the corridor runs along Madison Street). The catalyst for them is moving their biggest academic college, the College of Business, off of center campus and out adjacent to the Civic Center.

Surely the people at UNF are aware of what FSU is doing, or what UF is doing with their exciting Innovation Hub, etc. Both universities are actively trying to be change agents for their local center cities. None of the stuff I'm talking about is radical or crazy. It just takes vision, and UNF has to think much bigger than they've been thinking. The Shipyards or Healthy Town offer them that opportunity. We've never demanded much of our local State University System institution. That has to change and it has to change now.

FSU and UF are literally across the street from the downtowns of their respective cities. FSU's law school has been located across the street from the civic center for decades. They are somewhat different animals, given the proximity of their main campuses to those city's cores.

Better comparisons would be UCF, USF, FAU and FIU. What are their expansion plans and visions for the cores of their cities.  UCF has plans to expand some programs in DT Orlando. However, Rick Scott just vetoed their funding request. On the other hand, Scott did approve some funding for USF to establish a medical school in DT Tampa. Here's a good article about their vision to establish an urban medical district.....something we suggested for the Shands area that Rick Mullaney ran with during his failed bid for mayor.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/usf-trustees-set-to-discuss-downtown-tampa-medical-school/2204366

Last, what's your take on EWC? A smaller school with a nice urban oriented campus a mile away from DT.

[For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A]

Florida Coastal is actually shrinking of recent and is one of the largest law schools (and worst) in the country. Don't expect them to "grow out of their facilities" but it was a mistake not to have the school in DT with the many law firms and courthouse DT.

JU does not have the resources to invest DT so there is NO CHANCE of it.

UNF does have the resources (due to the state) and potential local donors who would be interested in moving maybe the College of Health downtown and partner with UF Health. If I were in charge, I would be begging UF to invest more in UF Health Jax as it comes to research, and help attempt to create more coordinated medical cluster in this city with Mayo, UF Health, UNF Nursing, etc. on the research side.

[mtraininjax]

UF Health Jax has its own issues, like the threat of shutting down if it does not get enough support from the City. I would not bet on Healthcare to rescue downtown, there is a reason why MAYO is where it is, look at the wealth and income, and then look at where UF Health Jax is located. Again, geographical issues here.

Let Khan do his deal, nice spread about it in the 904 magazine this month, the "Money Issue", so rightly described!

[tufsu1]

UF Health Jax has its own issues, like the threat of shutting down if it does not get enough support from the City. I would not bet on Healthcare to rescue downtown, there is a reason why MAYO is where it is, look at the wealth and income, and then look at where UF Health Jax is located. Again, geographical issues here.

That is a pretty stupid comparison.  The missions of Mayo and UF Health Jax are VERY different.  The main reason UF Health struggles financially is because it is the official indigent care hospital for Jax.  It might be interesting to note that other major urban hospitals in Florida have access to funds that the state legislature has refused to allow UF to tap into.

Btw, possibly the best university teaching hospital in the country, Johns Hopkins, is located in an area far worse than UF Health Jax.

[thelakelander]

^The John Hopkins example would also suggest that there's no such thing as a single "game changer."

[Jax Friend]

This has been an interesting conversation. Personally I've been under the impression that any educational facility downtown would be a big win, and it would to a degree, thelakelander makes a good point though. There seems to be other variables at play. I think a great early step to take would be to encourage downtown institutions to take on more interns from local schools. A strong link created between the business and administrative functions located downtown and the intellectual capital fostered at our schools could bolster both camps. When local colleges see this connection as part of holistic process of education and work placement the more these schools will focus there attention on downtown. An incentive has to exist before schools want to physically be part of the urban core.

[CCMjax]

UF Health Jax has its own issues, like the threat of shutting down if it does not get enough support from the City. I would not bet on Healthcare to rescue downtown, there is a reason why MAYO is where it is, look at the wealth and income, and then look at where UF Health Jax is located. Again, geographical issues here.

That is a pretty stupid comparison.  The missions of Mayo and UF Health Jax are VERY different.  The main reason UF Health struggles financially is because it is the official indigent care hospital for Jax.  It might be interesting to note that other major urban hospitals in Florida have access to funds that the state legislature has refused to allow UF to tap into.

Btw, possibly the best university teaching hospital in the country, Johns Hopkins, is located in an area far worse than UF Health Jax.

UF Health needs to have a presence near the center of the city because I believe it is the area's only Level 1 Trauma center, meaning they treat everything.  You get shot in the head, you go there, you get in a wreck and need emergency surgery within 30 mins or your dead you go there.  It needs to be centrally located.  They also treat anyone who walks in, with insurance or without, they don't care about a patient's financial situation or credit history, these are not the most profitable hospitals.  Mayo I believe is almost entirely if not completely out of pocket, totally different system.  But with that said Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN is located right downtown.  I've been to the facility, it's huge and employs a huge amount of people in that city.  But I don't think Mayo would ever locate downtown here, I would think they get a lot of their patients (very wealthy) from the beaches and out-of-towners with deep pockets or at least those willing to sell the farm for treatment.  There's really no reason for them to be centrally located here since, at least from my understanding, is that they really don't serve low-income neighborhoods.

[blfair]

UF Health needs to have a presence near the center of the city because I believe it is the area's only Level 1 Trauma center, meaning they treat everything.  You get shot in the head, you go there, you get in a wreck and need emergency surgery within 30 mins or your dead you go there.  It needs to be centrally located.  They also treat anyone who walks in, with insurance or without, they don't care about a patient's financial situation or credit history, these are not the most profitable hospitals.  Mayo I believe is almost entirely if not completely out of pocket, totally different system.  But with that said Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN is located right downtown.  I've been to the facility, it's huge and employs a huge amount of people in that city.  But I don't think Mayo would ever locate downtown here, I would think they get a lot of their patients (very wealthy) from the beaches and out-of-towners with deep pockets or at least those willing to sell the farm for treatment.  There's really no reason for them to be centrally located here since, at least from my understanding, is that they really don't serve low-income neighborhoods.

Mayo takes insurance, probably not HMOs but I've had several PPOs/HDHPs that let me go there. As you mentioned they get lots of people who travel from around the world and pay cash too.