Skyway to Greenway?

[UNFurbanist]

That could be a really cool idea to maybe convert the existing skyway infrastructure to LRT and have it slope into regular LRT on Bay St. and Riverside Ave. potentially connecting 5 points to the stadium and everything in-between. Expensive, but in the right circumstances it could be a great system that would make these areas truly TOD. I know there have already been talks about making both those streets more pedestrian friendly.

[CCMjax]

That could be a really cool idea to maybe convert the existing skyway infrastructure to LRT and have it slope into regular LRT on Bay St. and Riverside Ave. potentially connecting 5 points to the stadium and everything in-between. Expensive, but in the right circumstances it could be a great system that would make these areas truly TOD. I know there have already been talks about making both those streets more pedestrian friendly.

I think light rail is better suited to connect the outer neighborhoods with the core of a city like in Miami and Charlotte (for close examples).  I still think a great starter route would be from the center of DT along Bay street on the existing elevated infrastructure to the Prime Osborne and then down to the ground west of the PO and share the existing rail corridor down through Murray Hill, St. Johns Park, Ortega, NAS Jax and then Orange Park (possibly all the way to Doctor's Inlet).  An elevated rail through Riverside could get messy and very expensive, and buses can service that area pretty well.  I'm all about using what's already there for rail. 

[UNFurbanist]

^ I am all for connecting outer neighborhoods and using existing infrastructure as well. I guess maybe instead of LRT extension from the skyway I meant something more along the lines of a street car system sloping down onto Bay st. and Riverside Ave. It's all just a pipe dream anyway but conceptually I think it makes good sense. IMO Jax needs to focus on getting the urban core neighborhoods and DT well connected together with a solid transit system. That way you can sell the entire core as a kind of package when convincing people to move and invest there. If you can get on a (train, streetcar, skyway, whatever) and ride from Springfield to Riverside or any other combination fairly directly in 20 mins or less that would be a big deal and a great selling point.

[peestandingup]

Most of our bike infrastructure is already in place in the form of sidewalks. It would be way cheaper, and more practical IMO given the nature of how bikes aren't cars or anything like them (even if some cyclists like to pretend), to extend sidewalks to accommodate bike lanes. It would give safe passage for the majority of cyclists, kids, etc, and those who wish to ride on the roads & take their chances there could still do so.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Sidewalk_with_bike_path.JPG

Those are an interesting option and can be quite effective. But in my experience, they tend to be quite impractical for any kind of heavy use/commuting. I don't see that as an issue in Jacksonville and they are likely to be fine given the amount of traffic (foot or bike) that can reasonably be expected.

In the urban core, it's as simple as taking a lane or two off selected streets and restriping them as cycle tracks. Most of the streets aren't FDOT's, so it should not be too difficult to develop a decent connected network utilizing local streets. You can find decent examples in both big and small cities. Jax just needs to do it and get it over with.

Treating cyclists like cars are a mistake though & IMO is counterproductive & has set the infrastructure back, mostly due to road cyclists having the bigger mouths with the "look at me, imma car. Beep Beep! Go around!" & advocating for it. A cyclist is MUCH closer to a pedestrian & should be treated as such. I'm just saying, car VS cyclist/pedestrian you're gonna lose every time, spandex or no spandex. Guaranteed.

I've ridden in the types of lanes we're talking about (just painted stripes on a road) in huge metros & its not pleasant. You get honked at, road rage, close calls, sneers, its fucking loud, all that. And forget about kids using it. I personally am OK with it, but I know there are TONS that wouldn't be. Having them segregated makes much more sense, is best for everyone & can be done cheaply.

P.S. I realize cyclists can legally ride on the sidewalks in FL as of now, but its still not ideal. And that doesn't even mention a lot of states where you cant.

[thelakelander]

^This is an example of a cycle track (mentioned in my earlier post):



Cyclist are separated from cars.

[peestandingup]

^Yeah, NYC & DC I noticed while there has those on some of their major arteries (the rest are painted bike lanes within traffic). Woudnt that be a much bigger investment though (and more work) than extending sidewalks?? A good example of the width you'd likely need is the widening they did near the front of Cummer Museum.

[thelakelander]

Taking a lane or restriping on wide roadways (while providing ample buffer) will be cheaper for the most part. Extending the sidewalks would mean moving curb & gutter, which will probably involve the extra expense of dealing with drainage and utilities. If not, then you're looking at acquiring private property, which will be a greater expense.

[For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A]

I mean, in 20-25 years if the urban core continues to densify, would that be something you think would actually be a real option on the table? The elevation through downtown actually makes a street car so much quicker and out of traffic.

[thelakelander]

I can see it being an option sooner than that. It makes all the sense in the world for connecting DT to neighborhoods like San Marco. The skyway vehicles are becoming more obsolete by the minute. At some point JTA will have to decide on if it's worth doing a massive overhaul or switching the technology to something else.  If a decision is made to switch, I believe streetcar is just of a decent option to consider, as another form of APM would be.

[The_Choose_1]

I can see it being an option sooner than that. It makes all the sense in the world for connecting DT to neighborhoods like San Marco. The skyway vehicles are becoming more obsolete by the minute. At some point JTA will have to decide on if it's worth doing a massive overhaul or switching the technology to something else.  If a decision is made to switch, I believe streetcar is just of a decent option to consider, as another form of APM would be.

I agree the Streetcar is a better option for Jacksonville Fl. And sooner the better.

[Adam White]

I can see it being an option sooner than that. It makes all the sense in the world for connecting DT to neighborhoods like San Marco. The skyway vehicles are becoming more obsolete by the minute. At some point JTA will have to decide on if it's worth doing a massive overhaul or switching the technology to something else.  If a decision is made to switch, I believe streetcar is just of a decent option to consider, as another form of APM would be.

I agree the Streetcar is a better option then a tram for Jacksonville Fl. And sooner the better.

"streetcar" and "tram" are two different names for the same thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram

[The_Choose_1]

I can see it being an option sooner than that. It makes all the sense in the world for connecting DT to neighborhoods like San Marco. The skyway vehicles are becoming more obsolete by the minute. At some point JTA will have to decide on if it's worth doing a massive overhaul or switching the technology to something else.  If a decision is made to switch, I believe streetcar is just of a decent option to consider, as another form of APM would be.

I agree the Streetcar is a better option then a tram for Jacksonville Fl. And sooner the better.

"streetcar" and "tram" are two different names for the same thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram

Thanks teacher I don't want a METRO or MARTA in Jacksonville Florida OK?

[Adam White]

I can see it being an option sooner than that. It makes all the sense in the world for connecting DT to neighborhoods like San Marco. The skyway vehicles are becoming more obsolete by the minute. At some point JTA will have to decide on if it's worth doing a massive overhaul or switching the technology to something else.  If a decision is made to switch, I believe streetcar is just of a decent option to consider, as another form of APM would be.

I agree the Streetcar is a better option then a tram for Jacksonville Fl. And sooner the better.

No need to be rude. Streetcars and trams are the same thing - so based on that, your comment doesn't really make sense.
"streetcar" and "tram" are two different names for the same thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram

Thanks teacher I don't want a METRO or MARTA in Jacksonville Florida OK?

No need to be rude. Streetcars and trams are the same thing - so based on that, your comment doesn't really make sense.

[The_Choose_1]

OK Adam white how about this "I agree the Streetcar is a better option for Jacksonville Fl. And sooner the better."

[NaldoAveKnight]

Pretty much any city that adds public transportation to it's list of amenities does it because it's citizens need trains and buses to get around due to a lack of parking space or because there's a historical precedent for train infrastructure in residential areas.  Take Chicago for example, it's not feasible for everyone who works in the Loop district to drive because there's not enough parking.  Same goes for New York and Manhattan.  Downtown Jax has a long way to go before it has tens of thousands of workers piling into downtown skyscrapers to work a 9 to 5 job.  That's why spending money on light rail is a total waste and possibly even a corrupt boondoggle.

As an alternative, creating dedicated transportation/recreational paths not only increases tourism, it's a cheaper way to increase mobility for year around citizens.  Imagine a recreational path that spanned both the south bank and north bank?  That would be an amazing amenity that pretty much any tourist would want to enjoy.  Cafes, clubs, shops would be lining the path and create an experience. 

The good news is the waterfront of Jax is almost a clean slate.  The potential is amazing.  Think about riding a bike from Avondale/Riverside/Downtown to San Marco, having dinner on the square, and then enjoying the sunset while crossing back over a dedicated bridge with no cars?  Or the other way around?  Or walk/bike from the south to a Jags game?  That would be epic and unique. 

Uniqueness is what drives people to want to live in a particular city.  Our competition is Tampa and Orlando.  Tampa has Bayshore Boulevard but it's mostly through a residential neighborhood and used almost strictly for exercise.  Orlando is almost landlocked so they have to develop areas like Winter Park for uniqueness.  Jacksonville has the ability to create something unique that would attract folks and would be impossible to replicate in Tampa or Orlando.

From a strictly selfish standpoint all of the stakeholders in the city will want to see this happen.  Property owners will see their property values increase as Jax becomes more of a destination city.  The government will get more money in property taxes.  Citizens will see their job prospects increase.  Tourists will pump money into the local economy because they stayed an extra day and enjoyed the area.  It's not a stretch to see folks from Ocala/Gainesville/Starke/Villages going back home and telling their friends how great the Jax Bridge was to walk across after the Jags game.  Then they would show off something they bought, chocolate purchased at Peterbrooke, beer bought at Aardwolf, etc.  As they are flipping through pictures on their phone there would a selfie shot of the sunset on the bridge.  Then their kids will see Jax as a destination city and lay the groundwork for the next generation of visitors.  Think landmark, think unique.