Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed

[edjax]

I really wasn't meaning to "bait" anyone. I was just saying that the demographic in the room seemed to me to really just favor one particular argument. If anything that is the fault of young people being apathetic. But, at my table specifically two older gentlemen really took over the conversation and pushed their ideas on us while not letting anyone else speak much. That eventually reflected itself in the end discussion. Nothing very visionary or that exciting for my age group. Again, some ideas were cool and I could totally agree with, others however I just think really missed the mark and there was no counter vision.

Agree with your comment on the real issue seems to have been the younger crowd too apathetic to show up it appears. 

[ben america]

Where was this announced?

[CCMjax]

I always wonder about this trope.  Why would Laura Street be 'improved' by 'opening' it to the river?  Does this help Liberty, Hogan, Pearl or any of the other streets that are already 'open'?

I think it's very important that they open it up to Laura Street.  Like UNFurbanist said, it is pretty uninviting right now.  I think Laura Street is a nice link between Hemming Plaza, the most historically significant block of buildings in Jacksonville, and the river although the river is cut off right now by the ugly structure of the Landing.  The most important thing in my opinion is that it has more green space than currently.  Downtown does not have much of any nice riverfront greenspace. 

I like the idea of taking out the ramp to Main Street and having most of the building structure on that side of Laura Street including an 8 to 15 story residential tower recessed from the first 2 floors of storefront/restaurant/offices, and on the other side of Laura Street and towards the river have more open green space with maybe a much smaller building footprint (2 or 3 storefronts or restaurants) away from the river along the road.  The idea that you create much more open space that pedestrians would want to go to close to the river.  Maybe an amphitheater in one corner closest to the river.   

[I-10east]

Lake, why does 'opening' the courtyard make sense?  Any more sense than iconic architecture or art?  What would it be open to, or for?  Air flow?

I've been a steadfast critic of the Landing breezeway proposal.

[edjax]

Where was this announced?

I saw it on the Daily Record last week and it was announced in the T-U too.  There are how many Landing threads on this site,? perhaps it should have been included on here and some of the young engaging hipsters on here could have been more involved.

[For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A]

I always wonder about this trope.  Why would Laura Street be 'improved' by 'opening' it to the river?  Does this help Liberty, Hogan, Pearl or any of the other streets that are already 'open'?

I agree. I just think financially at this point, although it could be nice, it is not one of the most pressing problems for the success of the Landing.

[thelakelander]

Lake, why does 'opening' the courtyard make sense?  Any more sense than iconic architecture or art?  What would it be open to, or for?  Air flow

Better visibility for retail and dining, which helps generate additional foot traffic and activity that can spill over into the downtown streets surrounding the Landing property.

[CCMjax]

Opening the courtyard to Laura Street makes a lot of sense. Nevertheless, UNFurbanist's review is exactly why I left. All of those "good ideas" have been mentioned for years now.  In fact, all of them can be accommodated in Sleiman's Landing plan that many here hated:



The market (or heavy public subsidies) will ultimately determine the proper mix of realistic uses. Seems the main issue is how to fit them on the site in a layout/design that's walkable, yet still accommodating to autocentric Jax.

I think most people didn't like his proposal because it was so vastly different than what's there now and people just couldn't picture it on that site.  His plan wasn't very "iconic" but would function well I think and I like it more every time I see, if there were just a few tweaks, maybe something a little more aesthetically substantial right where Laura Street meets the park.  Maybe it was the bland brick façade used in the rendering, I don't know.  I think the word used before was "uninspiring."

[For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A]

it comes up in every discussion.  how to keep the homosexuals from having sex in public (ever wonder why there are no public bathrooms in hemming park?)
how to keep the creep old guys from playing chess at hemming park (because they are 'bums'...you know: retired)
unfurbanists experience at his table is nothing new.

I've never seen you at one of these meetings FF, did I miss you? 

And just because this happens to be one of your issues doesn't mean that you are being 'baited'

what could possibly go wrong?  A distant rural facility way out in the florida swamp somewhere, serving the forgotten misplaced and unwanted?

Jacksonville is a haven for the homeless. I talk to folks all the time since I have lived in downtown. It is warm and has a reputation for a good homeless crowd in downtown. People are released from jail and I usually have at least 2 or 3 people ask me for money on my walk.

I am all for helping the needy but good luck revitalizing downtown when there is a homeless problem. It is not a problem for me but I know plenty of people that it is a problem for. I would not want my wife walking around alone. Although, interestingly, there are very few crimes in the area or most of the crimes are between the vagrant population.

I think the sheriff is right though and I am all about helping the poor while also improving downtown. Put a shelter out by the Cecil Commerce and I think it will help Jacksonville.

Let me know. I am taking the Florida Bar in late July (so I am pretty swamped) but I would love to come after that. All I am saying is the average person hanging out at the St. Johns Town Center is not going to answer "the olds and gays" when talking about why they don't go DT or to the Landing. It is all about creating a cool atmosphere or vibe around here.

[thelakelander]

and what about shade, or protection from the rain?  Like why does 'opening' Laura Street mean 'a street that dead ends in the river'?

IMO, opening the courtyard up to the street doesn't mean you can't have shade or a roof. You're simply exposing the activities and setting them up in a manner where they can spill over to areas outside of the Landing. See 4th Street Live in Louisville as similar example.






Or Baltimore's Inner Harbor as one without a roof:

[thelakelander]

I always wonder about this trope.  Why would Laura Street be 'improved' by 'opening' it to the river?  Does this help Liberty, Hogan, Pearl or any of the other streets that are already 'open'?

I agree. I just think financially at this point, although it could be nice, it is not one of the most pressing problems for the success of the Landing.

The actual layout is a huge problem to operate and maintain financially. You have a pretty dead mall with no anchor space that you have to maintain and air condition. If that's not bad enough, you have a large food court common space with a riverfront view you can't lease. For that thing to work, at a minimum, you've got the retrofit the building to where you can lease your best spaces for more cash, while also reducing the amount of common floor area you have to maintain and air condition. That's just the layout. Dealing with dedicated parking to lure certain types of higher paying tenants is another hurdle to jump.

Btw, I just realized this is a Shipyards thread. This whole Landing discussion is probably better off being in one of our existing Landing threads.

[For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A]

I always wonder about this trope.  Why would Laura Street be 'improved' by 'opening' it to the river?  Does this help Liberty, Hogan, Pearl or any of the other streets that are already 'open'?

I agree. I just think financially at this point, although it could be nice, it is not one of the most pressing problems for the success of the Landing.

The actual layout is a huge problem to operate and maintain financially. You have a pretty dead mall with no anchor space you have to maintain and air condition and you have a large food court common space with a riverfront view you can't lease. For that thing to work, at a minimum, you've got the retrofit the building to where you can lease your best spaces for more cash, while also reducing the amount of common floor area you have to maintain and air condition. That's just the layout. Dealing with dedicated parking to lure certain types of higher paying tenants is another hurdle to jump.

Btw, I just realized this is a Shipyards thread. This whole Landing discussion is probably better off being in one of our existing Landing threads.

Yeah. We have enough Landing threads 

But I completely agree with everything you just said. My problem with all of the plans are the pricetag right now. The place is not ideal, and has not been remodeled since 1988 but I think there are ways to make the place more successful without $12 million from the city at a time we can't even save four of our most historic building with the Laura St. Trio and Barnett. I am a fan of the Landing taking on a market feel similar to Pike Place Market in Seattle. There is no actual vision for the Landing right now, just a hodgepodge of stores, clubs, and restaurants. You did a great article on historic Jax markets previously but it will be creating a unique Jax vibe that revitalizes downtown.

[For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A]

it comes up in every discussion.  how to keep the homosexuals from having sex in public (ever wonder why there are no public bathrooms in hemming park?)
how to keep the creep old guys from playing chess at hemming park (because they are 'bums'...you know: retired)
unfurbanists experience at his table is nothing new.

I've never seen you at one of these meetings FF, did I miss you? 

And just because this happens to be one of your issues doesn't mean that you are being 'baited'

what could possibly go wrong?  A distant rural facility way out in the florida swamp somewhere, serving the forgotten misplaced and unwanted?

Jacksonville is a haven for the homeless. I talk to folks all the time since I have lived in downtown. It is warm and has a reputation for a good homeless crowd in downtown. People are released from jail and I usually have at least 2 or 3 people ask me for money on my walk.

I am all for helping the needy but good luck revitalizing downtown when there is a homeless problem. It is not a problem for me but I know plenty of people that it is a problem for. I would not want my wife walking around alone. Although, interestingly, there are very few crimes in the area or most of the crimes are between the vagrant population.

I think the sheriff is right though and I am all about helping the poor while also improving downtown. Put a shelter out by the Cecil Commerce and I think it will help Jacksonville.

Let me know. I am taking the Florida Bar in late July (so I am pretty swamped) but I would love to come after that. All I am saying is the average person hanging out at the St. Johns Town Center is not going to answer "the olds and gays" when talking about why they don't go DT or to the Landing. It is all about creating a cool atmosphere or vibe around here.

Good luck on the bar, first.  Thats quite enough to keep anyone busy.

but I think you must have posted without actually reading the sequence of comments.  The people who show up at these charettes to weigh in with their opinion often have these prejudices about public spaces.  And the belief they we have to seek 'solutions' to them are prejudices that they do not necessarily share with millenials.

There are always prejudices to overcome but the people showing up to the meetings spouting hateful rhetoric are not representative of the people you will probably be building a base demographic frequenting downtown anyway. Then again, I don't really know because I have never been to a meeting so I can't talk too much.

Thanks for the encouragement! Working hard and wasting time every once in awhile posting on here.

[simms3]

I really wasn't meaning to "bait" anyone. I was just saying that the demographic in the room seemed to me to really just favor one particular argument. If anything that is the fault of young people being apathetic. But, at my table specifically two older gentlemen really took over the conversation and pushed their ideas on us while not letting anyone else speak much. That eventually reflected itself in the end discussion. Nothing very visionary or that exciting for my age group. Again, some ideas were cool and I could totally agree with, others however I just think really missed the mark and there was no counter vision.

That would drive me up a wall.  The non-stakeholders with more than a little say and the actual [potential] stakeholders either apathetic or oblivious to their potential role in shaping downtown, and not having a saw.

The older I personally get, the pickier I get with any sort of interactions with "older" people (>55 years old).  There are certainly plenty of cool older people, but I find more and more that those generations annoy me at best, perturb me on average, and offend me at worst.  To hear them all gathered around a round table discussing design/planning for the rebirth of a new sunbelt downtown that will ultimately need to cater to those <35 today in order to be successful is just a mind melt.  If it were up to me, I'd to hell with age discrimination and ban them from certain conversations/"charettes".  Lol

[UNFurbanist]

I really wasn't meaning to "bait" anyone. I was just saying that the demographic in the room seemed to me to really just favor one particular argument. If anything that is the fault of young people being apathetic. But, at my table specifically two older gentlemen really took over the conversation and pushed their ideas on us while not letting anyone else speak much. That eventually reflected itself in the end discussion. Nothing very visionary or that exciting for my age group. Again, some ideas were cool and I could totally agree with, others however I just think really missed the mark and there was no counter vision.

That would drive me up a wall.  The non-stakeholders with more than a little say and the actual [potential] stakeholders either apathetic or oblivious to their potential role in shaping downtown, and not having a saw.

The older I personally get, the pickier I get with any sort of interactions with "older" people (>55 years old).  There are certainly plenty of cool older people, but I find more and more that those generations annoy me at best, perturb me on average, and offend me at worst.  To hear them all gathered around a round table discussing design/planning for the rebirth of a new sunbelt downtown that will ultimately need to cater to those <35 today in order to be successful is just a mind melt.  If it were up to me, I'd to hell with age discrimination and ban them from certain conversations/"charettes".  Lol

I agree with you on the mind melt part. I was thinking the same thing about who this will ultimately have to cater to. I think the design team gets that and ultimately I don't think they are going to do anything stupid so I'm not too worried. They just have to do this to check some transparency  boxes and maybe have a few "ahh ha" moments. Plus, like I said some of the ideas were fine so I'm sure they'll just focus on that.

Thinking on it more though, I don't really think it's apathy from younger people as much as not getting the word out in a way we normally get info. That's really hard because basically if we don't follow your organization on social media or these message boards we don't find out because most realistically don't read the T-U or daily record. Its tough and really is a hard nut to crack getting young people from the area informed and involved.