Khan interested in developing shipyards

[downtownbrown]

I thought we were talking about the Shipyards.  The pong boards is a non sequitur.  First of all, "giving away" the shipyards doesn't cost $40 million of new money.  Developed property brings in money.  Second, the pong boards are designed to attract attention to the franchise. Attention converts to bodies.  Bodies convert to money.  But I'm not here to justify pong boards.  I want someone, anyone, to develop the Shipyards.  Sitting around arguing about "highest best use" and "market value" ensures that nothing happens.

By the way, you didn't answer the question.  What's the property worth if no one is bidding on it.

[Tacachale]

If we're going to "give it away for nothing", there will be plenty of other interest besides Khan, but some are acting as if he's the only one who even wants this property. Point is, if we're just going to give it away, we can do better than a practice football field and surface parking on the riverfront.

Alternately, we could do what we should have done all along, which is working with a developer to create something of best and highest use that includes a public element.

[fieldafm]

What is the fair market value of land that no one is bidding on?

Generally, property needs to actually be offered for sale before people will bid on it. In this case, an RFP has not been issued nor has COJ contracted with any real estate maketing professionals to see what the market is for the property. The only thing happening with the Shipyards right now is an attorney asking for the City to give the land away for free to the Jags. That's not really a situation where competitive bids are being sought.

It's a nice contrast with what's going on with the land directly across the river at the Wyndham which is being marketed regionally.

[CityLife]

Too further add on to Field's point, I would buy the land for a couple million dollars next week if the city let me. It would be a piece of cake to raise that kind of money to get that land at such a heavily discounted rate. I'm sure many, many others would pay much more.

Another thing to consider regarding the value of the Shipyards is that there are other incentives or grants that can make a site more attractive to the free market. The city has an incentive program called REV Grant, which gives developers of certain projects a lump sum payment as a refund of future tax increases from development on a project. Depending on the scale of what Khan wants to do, he could probably get north of $25 million through this program. For comparison, 200 Riverside got a $4.9 million dollar REV Grant.

I'm perfectly ok with giving Khan (or another developer) the land at a discounted rate, even moreso if there are environmental remediation costs. However, like any other incentive program, the benefit to the public needs to be weighed when deciding what to do with it and how much to sell it for.

I think we all want what's best for the city, for downtown, and for the Jaguars....but I think we all need to ensure that the Mayor doesn't try to hook his biggest campaign donor up with the land for free if he isn't going to provide the community with an improvement worthy of the heavy discount. Until we see more concrete plans, its hard to make that judgment of worthiness, but as Field said, the proper process is not being followed at this time.

[mtraininjax]

I thought we were talking about the Shipyards.  The pong boards is a non sequitur. 

I am just reusing your statement, in which you stated that:

even if the city "gives it away for nothing", an investment of a property that is generating ZERO income that turns into a tax cash cow is a pretty damned reasonable strategy.

The city did give away 43 million in taxpayer funds to a 4x Billionaire, who only put in 20 million. The same city gave away the revenue from the naming rights to the Jaguars, it seems that every time there is a proposal by the Jaguars, the City bends over and the taxpayers end up paying for it. Blank check has a nice ring to it.

The 43 million was money that would have otherwise gone to city services, purchases of equipment, items to help the city and its taxpayers, us. What do the pong boards do for taxpayers? They make the footballs look a little bigger on the TV screen, for those who have bad eye sight to begin with. Do they make the team better? No. Do they enhance the value of a city owned facility, maybe, but are we selling the stadium to Khan.....yet?

When you can show me how pong boards convert to putting more seats in the stands, we can discuss the validity of your argument. Just today, the Times Union reported that ticket sales for season tix at the Jags are a little better than last year, maybe due to the draft, maybe due to the pong boards, but still woefully under the 90% threshold that Lamping is using to show sell outs. Best and fastest way to get there is to win. We all know that.

Mayor Brown had a number of people go around the city and build a list of all the city property and the value of each property owned by the city. Surely if anyone has a value of the property, he has it.

I'm all for development of the Shipyards too, but not using the same metrics with which most deals are done with the people at the Jaguars. We've really bent over backwards for them, for a long time, and their product on the field reflects the attendance in the stands, that's not OUR fault, its their fault. So if a guy is a billionaire 4x over walks into Mayor Brown's office and presents pretty pictures and a nice story board, please tell him to bring his checkbook to cover the real value of riverfront property. This should not be a gimme, City should get fair value of the property as it sits, where it sits.

If nothing else, we can turn it into a Paul Crawford Mud pit when it rains, as evidenced by the cars parking on it of late.

[Noone]

What is the fair market value of land that no one is bidding on?

Generally, property needs to actually be offered for sale before people will bid on it. In this case, an RFP has not been issued nor has COJ contracted with any real estate maketing professionals to see what the market is for the property. The only thing happening with the Shipyards right now is an attorney asking for the City to give the land away for free to the Jags. That's not really a situation where competitive bids are being sought.

It's a nice contrast with what's going on with the land directly across the river at the Wyndham which is being marketed regionally.

+1 Good information.

[simms3]

Many of you guys are ignoring the fact that even if the city "gives it away for nothing", an investment of a property that is generating ZERO income that turns into a tax cash cow is a pretty damned reasonable strategy.

Practice fields on the riverfront does not constitute tax boon for city since they can't technically value that land any higher than it is valued now (essentially worthless).  Practice fields are not income producing, nor are they even close to highest and best use.  The tax conversation is not worth having with Khan's proposal.

If we're going to "give it away for nothing", there will be plenty of other interest besides Khan, but some are acting as if he's the only one who even wants this property. Point is, if we're just going to give it away, we can do better than a practice football field and surface parking on the riverfront.

Alternately, we could do what we should have done all along, which is working with a developer to create something of best and highest use that includes a public element.

Totally agree.

What is the fair market value of land that no one is bidding on?

Generally, property needs to actually be offered for sale before people will bid on it. In this case, an RFP has not been issued nor has COJ contracted with any real estate maketing professionals to see what the market is for the property. The only thing happening with the Shipyards right now is an attorney asking for the City to give the land away for free to the Jags. That's not really a situation where competitive bids are being sought.

It's a nice contrast with what's going on with the land directly across the river at the Wyndham which is being marketed regionally.

Right on.  It would be an absolute CRIME if there were not a competitive process to sell and/or develop the Shipyards land.  I'm not saying demand would be all that high because it's a lot of land and Jax is a tiny, non-performing market with no vision and horrible real estate metrics, but there could be some demand, perhaps more if the city were to piece out the site like SF has done block by block around the new Transbay Terminal (that way all sorts of developers get to try their hand, and as more land is sold, the remaining developers who have been priced out before are chomping at the bits to get the last remaining opportunities, thus keeping pricing up).

[fieldafm]

but there could be some demand, perhaps more if the city were to piece out the site like SF has done block by block around the new Transbay Terminal (that way all sorts of developers get to try their hand, and as more land is sold, the remaining developers who have been priced out before are chomping at the bits to get the last remaining opportunities, thus keeping pricing up).

Been advocating that for years. It's clear though that COJ doesn't have an appetite for seperating the land unfortunately.

People hear San Fran and immediately counter that Jax is light years different then SF (or Brooklyn- Brooklyn Bridge Park), but Jax compares well with places like Columbus, Ohio or Milwaukee, WI... who have done similar things.

[thelakelander]

Wasn't a bad idea then and isn't a bad one now.  If this was done a full decade ago, the entire site would probably be built out by now.

[simms3]

but there could be some demand, perhaps more if the city were to piece out the site like SF has done block by block around the new Transbay Terminal (that way all sorts of developers get to try their hand, and as more land is sold, the remaining developers who have been priced out before are chomping at the bits to get the last remaining opportunities, thus keeping pricing up).

Been advocating that for years. It's clear though that COJ doesn't have an appetite for seperating the land unfortunately.

People hear San Fran and immediately counter that Jax is light years different then SF (or Brooklyn- Brooklyn Bridge Park), but Jax compares well with places like Columbus, Ohio or Milwaukee, WI... who have done similar things.

So if nobody wants the risk of developing a HUGE piece of waterfront land in SF and would rather buy an individual parcel being sold off by the city's redevelopment agency, then because Jax is vastly different there will be tons of developers looking to master-develop an entire 47 acre piece of contaminated riverfront land?!?!

Are there people in Jax smoking more crack than Rob Ford?

Has someone in Jacksonville received the memo yet that Jax is at the bottom of the American totem pole on everything and that nobody really wants the risk of the place??  A way to counter that is to lower an investors' risk by providing a concrete guideline and overall master vision for what the city wants, exactly, for the Shipyards, and then break it up and leave it up to a multitude of developers to make smaller, palpable bets to get it done?

I guess that would be too logical..."only" an MBA could ever think up such an idea and I suppose Jax is lacking in those.  Hmmm   

[IrvAdams]

Whatever is done with this property, I would hope one or more parcels are kept as straight up green space for the public to sit or stroll and observe the river. It is beautiful in that area.

[Noone]

but there could be some demand, perhaps more if the city were to piece out the site like SF has done block by block around the new Transbay Terminal (that way all sorts of developers get to try their hand, and as more land is sold, the remaining developers who have been priced out before are chomping at the bits to get the last remaining opportunities, thus keeping pricing up).

Been advocating that for years. It's clear though that COJ doesn't have an appetite for seperating the land unfortunately.

People hear San Fran and immediately counter that Jax is light yyears different then SF (or Brooklyn- Brooklyn Bridge Park), but Jax compares well with places like Columbus, Ohio or Milwaukee, WI... who have done similar things.

Love the pic with the boat slip. CRA/DIA in the USA meeting 5/20/14 at 3pm and it will be about Downtown. Let's never forget about the Jim Love, Kevin Kuzel 26' Berkman floating dock compromise (Shipyards III) misrepresented by OGC to the Jacksonville Waterways Commission during the 2013 FIND grant application process. I will swear to that under oath. it is brilliant and I had nothing to do with it. Also super props to councilwoman Boyer and just reading from the 4/9/14 Jacksonville Waterways Commission minutes at that meeting council member Lori Boyer said that she would like to see a map that illustrates all of the Public Access points on the Northbank made available. So at the 5/14/14 Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting during Public Comment I asked councilman Redman the Chair of Waterways about the list. Not available.

The point is that regardless of what happens with Shipyards there is and always has been another opportunity for the immediate creation of an organic, infill, tactical node that would provide a spark for connectivity to Bay St. and Mark's. More importantly a connection to our St. Johns River an American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative in our new super duper restricted DIA zone.

[thelakelander]

Whatever is done with this property, I would hope one or more parcels are kept as straight up green space for the public to sit or stroll and observe the river. It is beautiful in that area.

The city would have complete control of this by master planning a vision for the property, putting in infrastructure and dividing the remaining property up into different parcels for private development.

[Noone]

^Isn't that what the CRA/DIA process is all about?

[edjax]

Story on Daily Record that Khan and Jags will make a proposal for Shipyards in next few weeks.