Tony Sleiman's New Town Center

[simms3]

Along with Markets at Town Center:



Hines Global just bought it from Pinehill for $135mm ($425psf), which was a huge deal (3rd largest retail transaction in 3Q2013 in the country).  We looked at it but passed based on the market (we're unfamiliar with Jacksonville and it's not nearly one of our core markets no matter how core the deal itself looked).

Very strong signal to Gate Pkwy area and SS retail to have Hines Global come pick it up...very institutional money and a large deal that transacted.  I'm sure Sleiman is having nightly wet dreams that he can accomplish the same thing!

By definition, a Power Center has 85-90+% of its GLA taken up by big box anchors (Best Buy, Target, ROSS, Marshalls, Toys R Us, Bed Bath & Beyond, etc).

A "neighborhood center" is a grocery or big box anchored retail center, typically smaller with lots of inline shops.

A "community center" is a mixture of the two...several boxes and lots of inline shops, with one or more of the boxes being a necessary goods retailer such as a Target or grocery store.

SJTC is a hybrid "super regional center" with two "power centers" next door and a "lifestyle" component (the shops/"walkable" portion).

River City Marketplace is a very traditional, average sized "regional center"...it doesn't get the "super" in front of it, well, because it just isn't that kind of draw nor is it that kind of 1-1.5+ million SF size.

[thelakelander]

I see thanks Ennis.  Nothing exciting here in my opinion but perhaps this will create some needed job opportunity's for Jacksonville.  I hope so anyway.

Outside of short term construction jobs, I don't see many new permanent jobs being created.  The market is only so big.  I suspect these businesses will only cannibalize existing jobs from other businesses in the area.  For example, Belk is planning to build a new 95,000 square foot store here.  Belk currently has a 195,000 square foot store at Regency Square, a short three miles away.  Do we really believe that section of Jacksonville can support two Belks so close to each other?

I'm going to make a big assumption here and only time will tell if I'm right.  I believe Belk will shut down their Regency store when the new one at Sleiman's center opens.  However, the new Belk is half the size of the existing one.  It's not out of the realm of possibility that it will employ half as many people as well.  So, when calculating job growth, we need to keep things like this in mind.

[vicupstate]

Death knell for Regency. Lake is right, Regency Belk will close.

This is the nature of sprawl,  every 20 years the 'new hot area' develops and the old 'new hot area' dies out.  Meanwhile the infrastructure is extended further and further out to accommodate this pattern.   

[simms3]

^^^Unfortunately Jax has a long way to go before it's really too big for its britches.  Look at Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, LA, Phoenix, and DC; heck even Chicago, NYC, SF, Boston, and Philly.  All of these cities have sprawl more dense than Riverside stretching for many miles outside of the city center...10-20 lane highways and tollways extending in all directions for 15-30 miles outside the city center.  When all is said and done, Sleiman's new center is only ~9 miles from the CBD and there are even still development sites/open land between there and the CBD.  Density in that area is probably 2,000-3,000 ppsm at most.

It would be nice if the infill bug that hit Charlotte and Nashville would also hit Jax.  Those cities have room to grow out too, but are growing "up" instead despite their small, less dense size.

[Mike D]

It's another shopping center.  Ho-hum.  Big box stores will be the next to go probably...Best Buy, for example, is already having problems...so it's just a matter of time before these new strips run their course too.  Then we'll move down the street and build something else.  And, as pointed out earlier, taxpayer funds will continue to widen the roads and extend the infrastructure to make this possible.  Traffic will become even more intolerable.  It's a vicious cycle.  I have nothing against shopping centers, but I do hope at some point the light-bulb that turned on in so many cities (as in: hey, let's recapture the original city and bring it back!) will do so in Jacksonville. 

[thelakelander]

It would be nice if the infill bug that hit Charlotte and Nashville would also hit Jax.  Those cities have room to grow out too, but are growing "up" instead despite their small, less dense size.

Those cities have put their money where their mouths are at when it comes to investing in their cores and working to implement a community vision. While we talk a good game, historically we've gotten pretty good at quietly slipping out the back door once the time comes to put some skin in the game.

[thelakelander]

I have nothing against shopping centers, but I do hope at some point the light-bulb that turned on in so many cities (as in: hey, let's recapture the original city and bring it back!) will do so in Jacksonville.

I'm fine with outward growth as well. I just think we need to do a better job of making sure taxpayers aren't getting the long term short end of the stick when it comes to growth (of any kind) paying for itself.  We're in trouble if we continue to subsidize new growth at the expense of previously developed areas.

[spuwho]

IMHO, Atlantic North will never, ever be a Town Center. This is a laugher and he must have been joking.

He can't even get all of his space on the SE corner leased by BJ's. The Markets @ TC just sold a 3 parcel lot for several million. I don't think he will ever see that. He had to come to City Council with his hat in hand to beg for a partial impact fee to get Academy in the door.

He was going to call it "The Fountains" but changed his mind. Filled in all of ponds that were going to have the fountains spraying water and renamed it a very original "Atlantic North", oooooh!

The former Charleys and Johnny Carinos on Atlantic finally leased after sitting vacant for 3 years. The former KFC/A&W is still sitting empty. They just opened a new 2 tenant bldg. in front of Kohl's with some very critical retail. Aspen Dental and Mattress Firm. How many more mattress stores does Jacksonville really need!

Oddly, Mr Sleiman passed around flyers to anyone coming into his 3 corner lots trying to block that "taxpayer funded, subsidized" overpass. You know, the one that cut traffic accidents by 65%. He doesn't seem to be complaining now.

His Phase II lot is being bandied with "Potential Car Dealer lot available" signs.

He is overjoyed because the transition of certain desirable retail is beginning the shift east across 295 and down Atlantic.

He would have had all 4 corners to himself if the Rev. RJ Washington at Titus Harvest Dome didn't beat him to the NE corner parcel. That now houses the "Marble Waters Hotel & Suites". The hotel just happens to lease the land from the church and the agent for the hotel? Why its the Reverend himself. If anything, perhaps Rev. RJ is in the wrong line of work.

Not bad for an intersection that has carried a WalMart and BJ's for 10 years.

[thelakelander]

I can't imagine the future of that hotel being a good one.  Marble Waters Hotel & Suites......really?  Is it just for church guests or are they expecting to draw people not affiliated as well?

[copperfiend]

I can't imagine the future of that hotel being a good one.  Marble Waters Hotel & Suites......really?  Is it just for church guests or are they expecting to draw people not affiliated as well?

I didn't realize the church owned this hotel. I had seen the building but didn't think much of it. I wonder how it works exactly. If the hotel (run by the church) is leasing the land from the church. I assume the hotel is "for profit", so who paid to have it built and who keeps the profits, assuming there is any. Seems like a nice scheme to me.

[CityLife]

Colleges around the country run their own hotels for-profit. Its a legit operation so long as the profits get re-invested back into the non-profit (church or college), but it could potentially lead to some shady dealings. Such as the church using tax-exempt status to secure donations to purchase property, which they then give a deal on to a private business they have relations with.

For instance a church could raise $500k of tax exempt money, buy the land for $500k, then turn around and lease it to the brother of the pastor for 3x below market rate. In that scenario, the brother and/or other donors would be making a business investment that is discounted by however much they save in taxes paid from the initial donation.

[spuwho]

I can't imagine the future of that hotel being a good one.  Marble Waters Hotel & Suites......really?  Is it just for church guests or are they expecting to draw people not affiliated as well?

I didn't realize the church owned this hotel. I had seen the building but didn't think much of it. I wonder how it works exactly. If the hotel (run by the church) is leasing the land from the church. I assume the hotel is "for profit", so who paid to have it built and who keeps the profits, assuming there is any. Seems like a nice scheme to me.

Technically, the church doesn't own the hotel. The entity that owns it (run by the pastor) leases the use of the land from the church.

I assume it was built to facilitate travelers for his revival meetings, but it is open to the public. When I drive by I hardly see a car there and no lights on in any of the rooms.  It has a restaurant ("The Brinkk") and was recently advertising 'kids eat free' specials, but again, I don't see very many cars there.

It is listed on Hotels.com, but the reviews aren't very flattering.

As one person put it...."built like a high school shop class and run by a group of 8th graders"  Ouch.

[thelakelander]

LOL, the church's pastor owns the hotel and the land it sits own is leased from the church? Interesting.....

Anyway, I'd rather take my money from the collection plate.  A hotel plastered with cheap stucco and called Marble Waters doesn't sound like a viable business model.  It's one thing to convince someone they're going to hell if they don't support the church but you can't do that with a cheesy hotel in a city where the hotel market pretty much blows. They would have been better off selling their corner to Sleiman. Strip malls and gas stations are hot stuff these days. Plus, "Marble Waters" shopping center sounds better than "Atlantic North".

[cline]

Strip malls and gas stations are hot stuff these days.

Great line- that made me laugh.

[danno]

THe Marble Waters reviews are a fun read including a story about the first lady firing someone using phrases such as "God don't like ugly".  Here is a snippet from another review.

From: http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g60805-d4041437-Reviews-Marble_Waters_Hotel_Suites-Jacksonville_Florida.html

If you want a facility built by the 9th grade shop class and run by the 8th grade home economics class, this is your place. It purports to be "luxurious," and the builders did use some higher end products, like marble countertops, deep jetted tubs, and glass tiles in the bathrooms, but with scuffed finishes, peeling paint, sloppily applied grout, brand new furniture coming apart (literally), and the like, the superficial image of luxury becomes a joke -- and not a funny one. The place looks good IN PHOTOS, for sure.