RAP-->Costs? Benefits?

[Bill Hoff]

RAP does not know what RAP does.

This is what I hear from people inside and outside of the organization. Too disorganized, too all over the place, no clear focus.

I assure you, this exact complaint is not unique to RAP. : )

[Kaiser Soze]

RAP does not know what RAP does.

This is what I hear from people inside and outside of the organization. Too disorganized, too all over the place, no clear focus.

I assure you, this exact complaint is not unique to RAP. : )

Sure, but that does not defend RAP's actions.

[strider]

We can say that SPAR saved Springfield from the same fate as LaVilla.  And yet, SPAR Council (SPAR and Historic Springfield Community Council merged together) spent years trying to knock down houses with MCCD and that combined with other shenanigans, set Springfield  back a good ten years.  So an organization that once did positives can end up being a big negative.  It is just the people who get involved who make that difference.

RAP is certainly no different.  If you feel that RAP has lost it's way, change the people in charge. Can't get that accomplished?  Then follow Springfield's lead and start a new organization to do what needs done.  Otherwise, live with what you have allowed to happen.

Frankly, from the outside, the only issues I see with RAP at the moment is the commercial development ones.  The entire issue reminds me of SPAR Council a few years ago with the car wash.  Nothing based on fact, just fear mongering at it's best.  People do that, not an organization.  Don't like it?  Change the people.

[ben says]

Glad people are starting to throw some real answers around instead of the "RAP is awesome, can do no wrong, leave them alone!!!"

We can say that SPAR saved Springfield from the same fate as LaVilla.  And yet, SPAR Council (SPAR and Historic Springfield Community Council merged together) spent years trying to knock down houses with MCCD and that combined with other shenanigans, set Springfield  back a good ten years.  So an organization that once did positives can end up being a big negative.  It is just the people who get involved who make that difference.

RAP is certainly no different.  If you feel that RAP has lost it's way, change the people in charge. Can't get that accomplished?  Then follow Springfield's lead and start a new organization to do what needs done.  Otherwise, live with what you have allowed to happen.

Frankly, from the outside, the only issues I see with RAP at the moment is the commercial development ones.  The entire issue reminds me of SPAR Council a few years ago with the car wash.  Nothing based on fact, just fear mongering at it's best.  People do that, not an organization.  Don't like it?  Change the people.

I agree about the commercial issues. I also agree with mtrain: it's just too damn hard to get something done when it comes to the outside of your home.

RAP does not know what RAP does.

This is what I hear from people inside and outside of the organization. Too disorganized, too all over the place, no clear focus.

I assure you, this exact complaint is not unique to RAP. : )

Sure, but that does not defend RAP's actions.

+1

[Tacachale]

Over the last several decades RAP and its members have played a huge part in making Riverside-Avondale one of best places to live Florida. They are absolutely a force for good in the neighborhoods and Jax in general. The fact that they sometimes come in on the wrong side (or at least the other side) of a disagreement doesn't undermine all the good they've done and continue to do.

[mtraininjax]

Over the last several decades RAP and its members have played a huge part in making Riverside-Avondale one of best places to live Florida. They are absolutely a force for good in the neighborhoods and Jax in general. The fact that they sometimes come in on the wrong side (or at least the other side) of a disagreement doesn't undermine all the good they've done and continue to do.

No one is saying destroy RAP, but they have gone to either the extreme left or extreme right and its time for them to come back, closer to the middle and understand that the neighborhood is changing, and there is a ground swell for change and they can either go the way of the do-do bird, SPAR, or embrace change and get out in front of it.

Changing the members in RAP is like re-arranging the deck chairs on the titanic, still have the same issue at City, where they enforce the RAP "suggestions". If you can educate me on how to get civil servants fired, like Ross Perot, I'm all ears.

[Debbie Thompson]

While it's sometimes hard to understand why the nit picking about a window, it is important to realize maintaining the historic character of a house is important in an historic district.  It can go too far if, as one of my neighbors said at an HPC meeting, it's easier to get a house approved to be torn down in Springfield than it is to get a window approved. 

That said, we in Springfield are having more trouble keeping the bulldozers at bay and away from our historic homes than anything else.  I'd be glad if all we were worried about is what kind of window we could install over here.  And I'd love to have to argue about where people are to park because a restaurant is so popular.  Count your blessings, Riverside/Avondale, and quitcher bitchen about it so much! You could have so much more to worry about.

[vicupstate]

I see nothing inappropriate about needing an COA to make exterior changes to a home in a historic area.  Who else is to provide that review, the Home Depot sales staff?  If safeguards are not in place, the historic elements can and will be compromised.  You should not expect to receive a permit the day you apply for one in such areas. 

There was no Historic overlay in the '70's and '80's for R/A, so that is not an appropriate comparison.  Do you want to repeal the overlay, and let 'the market' determine what is appropriate? 

There are ways to streamline/standardize approval processes, so that they are not as oneorous.  One way is for RAP to submit to the city examples of designs/styles that are considered appropriate as shown.  If the applicant requests use of one of the pre-approved designs, the city can sign off without further review or votes by boards.  Examples would be windows, fencing, doors, etc.   Of course, there would need to be a sufficient variety within each category.     

There are historic neighborhoods all over the country and these issues are universal among them, study the ones that do the best job and steal their ideas.   

[vicupstate]

While it's sometimes hard to understand why the nit picking about a window, it is important to realize maintaining the historic character of a house is important in an historic district.  It can go too far if, as one of my neighbors said at an HPC meeting, it's easier to get a house approved to be torn down in Springfield than it is to get a window approved. 

That said, we in Springfield are having more trouble keeping the bulldozers at bay and away from our historic homes than anything else.  I'd be glad if all we were worried about is what kind of window we could install over here.  And I'd love to have to argue about where people are to park because a restaurant is so popular.  Count your blessings, Riverside/Avondale, and quitcher bitchen about it so much! You could have so much more to worry about.

+1,000

[mtraininjax]

That said, we in Springfield are having more trouble keeping the bulldozers at bay and away from our historic homes than anything else.  I'd be glad if all we were worried about is what kind of window we could install over here.  And I'd love to have to argue about where people are to park because a restaurant is so popular.  Count your blessings, Riverside/Avondale, and quitcher bitchen about it so much! You could have so much more to worry about.

Debbie - Maybe you have hit on the key to a thriving neighborhood. Its not the people in the homes, its the business that the people support. Main Street has slowly decayed and moved further and further out, along with it the people too. While Avondale and Riverside maintain people, and a mix of new people and old, the area has begun to thrive. Perhaps Springfield is looking for more of a mix of new and young. Personally, I would never live there, my father had a duplex for sale for many years on Liberty and I remember helping him fix it and I was scared of the area back then. I have no problem walking my dog around Avondale, no fear, yet. With our mix of new and old, we have new commercial coming to the area. Maybe Springfield needs more commercial to bring more people to its table?

The window issue is a big one to me, any change to the integrity of the outside of your house will cause you to receive a call from Code Enforcement. The secret old fogeys are out looking for ways to stop change in the neighborhood.

[mtraininjax]

Of course, there would need to be a sufficient variety within each category.     

LOL! Yeah, RAP has some lovely copies of copies of copies of pictures of the way your house looked like, sometime close to when it was built. Between the dark and light splotches, you can make out bits an pieces of the front of the way your house looked, sort of.

If your house did not have a white roof when constructed, sorry, even though white may repel more heat and drive down the electricity use for more efficiency, you cannot have white shingles on your roof. If your house did not have a metal roof, sorry, you need to put back the shingles, even though many of the metal/plastic roofs last longer than shingles and are better for the economy.

What was good for the neighborhood in the 70s and 80s has not kept pace with the changes to energy efficiency. So those old leaky windows have to be replaced with the same old wooden windows, with the same mullion panels, its almost as if Riverside and Avondale is like living in a Condo where all the faces must look the same. Its such a draconian area when it comes to change. No wonder all the old biddies are having a conniption fit to the Kickback's and MM controversies. They see this as the first wave to change to RAP, and rightly they should.

No one is saying throw out RAP, all I am saying is come back closer to the middle and work with people instead of saying its Our (RAP) way or go to Springfield.

[Kaiser Soze]

There are ways to streamline/standardize approval processes, so that they are not as oneorous.  One way is for RAP to submit to the city examples of designs/styles that are considered appropriate as shown.

I don't want RAP involved with a determination as to what is or is not historically accurate.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Look, I don't care one way or the other, mostly I'm just stirring the pot on this one.  Enjoy.

If your house did not have a white roof when constructed, sorry, even though white may repel more heat and drive down the electricity use for more efficiency, you cannot have white shingles on your roof. If your house did not have a metal roof, sorry, you need to put back the shingles, even though many of the metal/plastic roofs last longer than shingles and are better for the economy.

If you're worried about UV repellent for your roof, ILO white shingles, you can install the mylar-backed insulation panels in your attic or even go with a spray in closed-cel foam.  They didn't have that option when your house was built.

I wouldn't worry too much about shingles lasting longer or being better than metal.  With each you can get up to a 50 year warranty and just over 85% recycled content.  It's strictly aesthetic.

What was good for the neighborhood in the 70s and 80s has not kept pace with the changes to energy efficiency. So those old leaky windows have to be replaced with the same old wooden windows, with the same mullion panels, its almost as if Riverside and Avondale is like living in a Condo where all the faces must look the same.

Sounds more like money's the issue.  You can still buy custom windows with limitless possibilities on mullion arrangement and sticking profiles.  And don't worry, you would have zero problem getting a custom manufacturer to install the Low E, Double Insulated glass that you so desperately crave.

No one is saying throw out RAP, all I am saying is come back closer to the middle and work with people instead of saying its Our (RAP) way or go to Springfield.

No one is saying that Pella has all your window ansewers and that what you do under the facade of your home is up to you.  Before giving up on RAP maybe everyone should start looking for some other options.

And the pot is stirred.

[mtraininjax]

Before giving up on RAP maybe everyone should start looking for some other options.

Again, NOT GIVING UP ON RAP, but I would like to see RAP move off their our way or no way pendulum.

If you need work done with a permit in RAP land, you have to have a COA first. The office of permits will laugh at you, and they have to me, if you don't have one first. Or do the work off the books and hope you don't get caught, as if anyone does that in this day and age....

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Before giving up on RAP maybe everyone should start looking for some other options.

Again, NOT GIVING UP ON RAP, but I would like to see RAP move off their our way or no way pendulum.

If you need work done with a permit in RAP land, you have to have a COA first. The office of permits will laugh at you, and they have to me, if you don't have one first. Or do the work off the books and hope you don't get caught, as if anyone does that in this day and age....

I highly doubt if you came in with a design from a custom window maker that they would laugh you out.  And $$$ wise, I haven't had extensive practice costing out windows, but say you were to re-do your entire front elevatoin, you could probably have a custom shop get the price comparable to Pella or Anderson.

With regards to the roofing, they are only concerned with the outward appearance, so I can understand why they would be against using metal over shingle, or shingle over terra cotta, etc.   But you should have ZERO problem correcting the insulation differences via the new methods we have that weren't available even a decade ago. 

You want solar panels for your home?  They make shingles with photovoltaic cells, now.  I would assume that the genius behind it was a free thinker trapped in an HOA subdivision.

Solar Water Heater?  During your next re-roof, they'll install the panels, much like a radiator, between the trusses and under the sheathing.  All concealed.