RAP-->Costs? Benefits?

[mtraininjax]

I highly doubt if you came in with a design from a custom window maker that they would laugh you out.  And $$$ wise, I haven't had extensive practice costing out windows, but say you were to re-do your entire front elevatoin, you could probably have a custom shop get the price comparable to Pella or Anderson.

This is the severity of the craziness, if your windows are wood, you must have wood mullions. You cannot add non-wood mullions to the window, as it would violate the COA. They laugh at you at the Permit office if you should up for a permit without a COA in this historic district. What if I want to use non-wood options, too bad son, you are SOL!

Solar Water Heater?

Why bother, natural gas is a deal right now with far fewer headaches.

I have the JEA insulation of 18-24 inches in the attic. Problem is that the idiots who added our roof 20-30 years ago never heard of a ridgeline vent to allow the heat, as it rises, to escape. So the heat builds and builds and builds, yes I could turn my old attic fan into a venting option when the heat gets above 120 degrees, but then I run the risk of sucking out all the new JEA insulation. So I am pretty much waiting for oil to drop down so I can get a new roof, with my beautiful COA, dipped in gold for the hacks at the City.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

This is the severity of the craziness, if your windows are wood, you must have wood mullions. You cannot add non-wood mullions to the window, as it would violate the COA. They laugh at you at the Permit office if you should up for a permit without a COA in this historic district. What if I want to use non-wood options, too bad son, you are SOL!

I don't think that I fully understand the issue here?  You have wood and want vinyl/fiberglass?  With vinyl, I undersatnd RAPs position.  They're nondescript windows with flat mulls and look kinda cheesy, IMO.

You have several different options with fiberglass windows, including full customization of window patterns, glazing material and mullion profiles.  You would have to go with a national distrubutor, but you should be able to find identical windows that match the rest of your home.

I have the JEA insulation of 18-24 inches in the attic. Problem is that the idiots who added our roof 20-30 years ago never heard of a ridgeline vent to allow the heat, as it rises, to escape. So the heat builds and builds and builds, yes I could turn my old attic fan into a venting option when the heat gets above 120 degrees, but then I run the risk of sucking out all the new JEA insulation. So I am pretty much waiting for oil to drop down so I can get a new roof, with my beautiful COA, dipped in gold for the hacks at the City.

Can't you just pull a permit to have the roofing contractor add the ridge vents?

  I highly doubt that the attic fan would pull the insulation, but if it's truly a concern, you cover it with a netting to prevent it from escaping.  If your fan does pull the insulation, I would be more concerned with the shear force that bad boy is putting on the house.  Did you use the fan off of your:

   

[mtraininjax]

They're nondescript windows with flat mulls and look kinda cheesy, IMO.

The aging RAP members driving by at 30 mph will be able  to tell the difference, I am sure of it. Get real!

The house came with the attic fan, the monster attic fan, an antique itself. No need to start a fire, just let it sit and be, as part of the house.

My roof is due to be replaced this year or next, so we'll just add vents when it is done.

I don't think that I fully understand the issue here?

I want the option, the choice to manage the house as I can 1) afford it, and 2) make it more energy efficient.  Finding wood windows is not a problem, being able to afford them when you have 50 windows in your house, is another.

[John P]

We can say that SPAR saved Springfield from the same fate as LaVilla.  And yet, SPAR Council (SPAR and Historic Springfield Community Council merged together) spent years trying to knock down houses with MCCD and that combined with other shenanigans, set Springfield  back a good ten years.  So an organization that once did positives can end up being a big negative.  It is just the people who get involved who make that difference.

RAP is certainly no different.  If you feel that RAP has lost it's way, change the people in charge. Can't get that accomplished?  Then follow Springfield's lead and start a new organization to do what needs done.  Otherwise, live with what you have allowed to happen.

Frankly, from the outside, the only issues I see with RAP at the moment is the commercial development ones.  The entire issue reminds me of SPAR Council a few years ago with the car wash.  Nothing based on fact, just fear mongering at it's best.  People do that, not an organization.  Don't like it?  Change the people.

Set back 10 years? That is totally revisionist. During that time millions of dollars were invested in the neighborhood and more progress was made than ever. Stop grinding your axe man. RAP proves that no matter how well a organization functions there will always be criticisism. There is no better neighborhood organization in Jacksonville than RAP period. It was said before that it comes with the territory. Unhappy people are loud people. Unhappy people have the option of getting involved or complaining. Get invoklved http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?s=involved

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

The aging RAP members driving by at 30 mph will be able  to tell the difference, I am sure of it. Get real!

Aesthetics.  The neighbor walking the dog down the street will.  Then he'll want to replace his windows with the new, efficient style, but he doesn't have quite as much as you, so he ends up putting in a vinyl version with a different mull pattern, say a 4 over 4.  Then the next guy puts in an aluminum version of a 4 over 4.  Then the last guy just puts in the rotm 1 over 1 white aluminum window.  You know, to save money.

This is a point that I would agree wholly with RAP on.

I want the option, the choice to manage the house as I can 1) afford it, and 2) make it more energy efficient.  Finding wood windows is not a problem, being able to afford them when you have 50 windows in your house, is another.

Have you had someone quote you to just replace the glass?  The awesome thing about the old windows to historians is the wavy glass that doesn't do shit to keep hot or cold out or in.  But....  All of the glass is held in with the old fashioned glazing (in most cases).  You can cut out each lite panel and replace it with the LowE insulated glass without having to rip out the entire window.  It can be done without a permit - it's a repair, not a replacement.   There.  Problem solved.

[John P]

Heard it all before but the facts still do not agree. I looks like RAP is the next neighborhood organization in the crosshairs which is too bad. This is the solution to your heartache http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?s=involved

[Jumpinjack]

Agree

[strider]

We can say that SPAR saved Springfield from the same fate as LaVilla.  And yet, SPAR Council (SPAR and Historic Springfield Community Council merged together) spent years trying to knock down houses with MCCD and that combined with other shenanigans, set Springfield  back a good ten years.  So an organization that once did positives can end up being a big negative.  It is just the people who get involved who make that difference.

RAP is certainly no different.  If you feel that RAP has lost it's way, change the people in charge. Can't get that accomplished?  Then follow Springfield's lead and start a new organization to do what needs done.  Otherwise, live with what you have allowed to happen.

Frankly, from the outside, the only issues I see with RAP at the moment is the commercial development ones.  The entire issue reminds me of SPAR Council a few years ago with the car wash.  Nothing based on fact, just fear mongering at it's best.  People do that, not an organization.  Don't like it?  Change the people.

Set back 10 years? That is totally revisionist. During that time millions of dollars were invested in the neighborhood and more progress was made than ever. Stop grinding your axe man. RAP proves that no matter how well a organization functions there will always be criticisism. There is no better neighborhood organization in Jacksonville than RAP period. It was said before that it comes with the territory. Unhappy people are loud people. Unhappy people have the option of getting involved or complaining. Get invoklved http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?s=involved

When any organization, regardless of its good intentions, sells out for the dollars, and make no mistake, SPAR Council undoubtedly did that, then the entire community suffers.   It suffers from the lack of new business because the new business that tries to open gets told it can't, or worse, is publicly ridiculed for even trying.  It suffers because the community spends the majority of its precious resources fighting battles it is destined never to win and it pits resident against resident.   When a developer spends his money, he expects his wishes to be served. In Springfield, they were.  What most did not realize at the time was that it wasn't at the poor peoples expense, it was at their, the upwardly mobile middle classes, expense.  When those values were overly and artificially inflated, who paid that price? 

Those are the facts of Springfield from about 2002 to 2011.  I am probably being being optimistic about the ten year set back.  Not talking about what was done, because of course, things were accomplished, but I am certainly talking about all the things that never were because people were too busy calling each other names and not worrying about if SPAR Council was putting out real and correct information or just making it up as they went along.  Or perhaps they should have been worrying about the gross number of houses taken down by either MCCD or the good members of SPAR Council, all with SPAR Council's approval, of course.  Any doubt that this type of issue sets back the real development of a community?

The good news is that for 2012, there is a spirit of working together again.  The path is still a bit precarious, but it is there  and we are indeed moving forward.

The point of this within this thread and RAP is that the same  "sound bites" have been heard from RAP and some of  it's membership against things as we have heard from SPAR Council .  The mind set might be the same.  If nothing else is to be learned from the bad decade of SPAR Council and Springfield, it should be that working towards negative things and negative goals (IE, Against everything not in your "Click" and that you do not understand  and fear) ends in sadness.  It is working in positive ways that actually moves a community forward.  The old help not hinder approach.

[strider]

It is important to note that RAP does not and never will set the standards under which things are approved or not approved for a COA. They can only advise.  Now, in the past, the HPC listened because, for instance, Bill Leuthood served on both RAP's design and review and the HPC.  However, Bill was, at least when I was there, a voice of reason.

Basically, if you allowed RAP to get HPC to disapproval something that was legal per the guidelines (please note, the overlay has nothing to do with the guidelines) then the fault lies with the applicant for not doing his homework and not having the common sense to stand up and say what the guidelines allow and that his choices were indeed within the guidelines.  Now, if the applicant ignores the guidelines when making his choice of windows, for instance, how could anyone expect the outcome to be nothing but not approved.

All the information one needs to make the intelligent choices is available directly from the Historic Planning Department. Those are the folks you really need to win over, not RAP or SPAR Council.

[ben says]

All the information one needs to make the intelligent choices is available directly from the Historic Planning Department. Those are the folks you really need to win over, not RAP or SPAR Council.

You mean these people?

Joel McEachin
City Planner Manager
Phone (904) 255-7835
mceachin@coj.net

Lisa Sheppard
City Planner III
Phone (904) 255-7843
Sheppard@coj.net

Autumn Martinage
City Planner I
Phone (904) 255-7849
ATucker@coj.net

Samantha Paull
City Planner I
Phone (904) 255-7852
spaull@coj.net

Scherrie Reed
Clerical Support Aide III
Phone (904) 255-7859
Scherrie@coj.net

Martin Kennelly
Historic Preservation Code Inspector
Phone (904) 255-7862
Kennelly@coj.net

[Jumpinjack]

Staff is always helpful if you are within the guidelines; if not, prepare to convince these folks:
Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission

J. Richard Moore, Jr., Chairman
Mr. Moore is an attorney and is a partner in the law firm of Rahaim, Watson, Dearing & Moore, P.A. He is a past President of the San Marco Preservation Society (2007-2008). He has served on the Commission since 2008 and has served as Chairman since July 2011.

Angela Schifanella, Vice Chairman
Ms. Schifanella is an architect that also lives in the Avondale area. She has served on the Commission since 2008 and has served as Vice Chairman since July 2011.

Jennifer Mansfield, Secretary
Ms. Mansfield is an attorney and is a partner in the law firm of Holland & Knight, P.A. She is a resident of Riverside and restored her home. She is a former Chair of the Design Review Committee of Riverside Avondale Preservation, Inc. (RAP). She has served on the Commission since 2010 and has served as Secretary since July 2011.

Joseph F. Thompson
Mr. Thompson is an architect and is employed by Gresham, Smith, & Partners. He is also a LEED AP®. He has served on the Commission since 2006 and is a past Chairman of the Commission.

David B. Case
Mr. Case is an architect and is employed by Richard Skinner & Associates. He is also a LEED AP®. He has served on the Commission since 2008 and is a past Chairman of the Commission.

John Allmand
Mr. Allmand is an architect and is also a LEED AP®. He also serves as the current President of the Murray Hill Preservation Association. He has served on the Commission since 2010.

[strider]

Yep and yep.  Except that in the past year, staff has been given more broad leeway in determining things rather than sending everything to HPC.  A good thing as if you are asking for things within the guidelines ( and you should be), many times staff can handle that COA which saves you time and money.   The current cost to take something to the HPC is $270.00 to $370.00.  It is doubled if you fail to get that COA to start with and you are obviously going to have to take it to the HPC even if it was something you could have gotten the free staff approval for.

[Dog Walker]

About windows:  There is going to be a "Windows 101" seminar at Restore Jacksonville Conference on Saturday morning.

Old windows can be easily retrofitted to more energy efficient.  Double panes in Florida are a waste of money as far as energy savings go.  Old glass can be fitted with clear film that makes the pane Low-E.

The real energy problem with our old windows is that they leak air like crazy.  Over the years the wood has shrunk and worn.

I'm going to go to the window seminar to find out how to properly weatherstrip my old windows to stop the air infiltration.

[Kaiser Soze]

I wanted to replace a 10-foot tall fence in my backyard with an 8-foot tall fence in order to at least come close to my neighbors' fences.  You would have thought I was tearing down my house.  Staff actually told me that shorter fences in the backyard were necessary because the houses were designed to allow neighbors' to look into each others' houses.  I shit you not.  Oh, RAP opposed me.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I wanted to replace a 10-foot tall fence in my backyard with an 8-foot tall fence in order to at least come close to my neighbors' fences.  You would have thought I was tearing down my house.  Staff actually told me that shorter fences in the backyard were necessary because the houses were designed to allow neighbors' to look into each others' houses.  I shit you not.  Oh, RAP opposed me.