JSO arrests "SIMON", major graffiti vandel.

[Bativac]

I think some kind of community space for graffiti would be fine - but I'd like to point out that the two guys this thread is about are 24 and 28 years old. When you approach 30 you should, at that point, have formulated a more sophisticated method of expressing yourself artistically than spray painting someone else's property. These aren't children. These are "grown ass men" who should know better.

[spankye3]

for example. Skateboarding, rollerblading, or biking or even car racing ALL started out in a place that was not "created" for it. But since a place was created, these people have a place to go do it and not on someone elses property. Is that not the same? There are places were you can go now such as skateparks or tracks. And these places are now not only widelt accepted but very much liked. A LOT of people like sports like that and things like NASCAR. Our society had the intelligence to reconize the need for a legal way to do these things and has adapted. For someone to say something as far as " there shouldnt be a legal place" is ignorant.

And if You havent noticed, since the graffiti movement started, it hasnt gone anywhere. If a legal wall is not built, IT WILL continue illegally. Thats how it is. But you have to realize, people have never been offered a chance to paint legally.

Bativac - A lot of graffiti writers such as myself have moved on to "more sophisticated" methods. I already mentioned that I have done several paintings by request from the owner of the property. In completely legal places with permission. The problem is that not everyone can do that, it takes a long time to develope the skill for complex paintings. Writers are used to having to run and hide while they paint or they are in they shouldnt be so they can take the time to paint something colorful or impressive. If there was a wall, painters could develope thier skills so they could eventually do painting for companies and not have to do it illegally at all.

JHAT76- Painting with aerosol are guite bigger than that of a painting done on canvass. A canvass usaully goes for about $40 for maybe a 2 by 3 foot canvass. The average writer just can not afford this. And well you might say something like "well get a job" or "dont do it then" but the fact is a lot of writers have jobs and spend a lot of money that most cant afford toward paint related items. Just because it makes THEM happy. And as far as the "dont do it" goes, you cant expect someone to stop doing something they absolutly love just because someone doesnt like it or doesnt appricaite it concept.

Graffiti is not goin to go anywhere. The same with drugs, voilence, or any crime unless it is handled properly. If you give someone who breaks the law a different way to do this original act but in a legal way, its can benefit everyone.

I do understand that I am in a room full of people that are generally agianst graffiti. Now what my goal is to explain a lot of things the best way I know how to maybe change the over all view as much as I can. Graffiti does not have to be illegal. It does not have to be on other peoples property, and it does not have to be against the best interested of the buildings owners.

The city of jacksonvile spends thousands and thousands of dollars trying to get rid of graffiti. That has failed. It might have slowed it down, but you can drive around jax right now and see it. But some of you rather spend that money rather than spend maybe $200 bucks to provide a wall so kids can go and paint......

[Charles Hunter]

As I understand it, there was a legal graffiti wall in 5 Points, provided by the building owner.  Did illegal graffiti on other surfaces stop?  No.  The taggers still defaced public and private property.  If another building owner wants to allow his wall to be used for graffiti, that's fine.  But it won't stop taggers.  I would guess that those who just scrawl their (sometimes intricate) initials or words, would not be welcome on a wall used by the artists, especially if they do it on top of the wall art.

[spankye3]

But what you have to understand is that it starts with a tag. You dont just go from a unreadable tag to a mural. It doesnt happen. If you have a wall, it need to be open to people who can do both. If you have a wall where only skilled painter can paint, of coarse "tags" will continue. If any writers cant go and paint, its not going to help. The difference will be a Public Wall where it is open do all. Not a wall with an owner who only accepts the few who are capable of more defined work. That kind of wall doesnt help. MAYBE 1 out of 10 people who graffiti can produce paintings that the genearal public will consider art. The rest have to do it on the street on some illegal wall till they develope. A wall owned by a person who has a say over who paints it detroys the whole idea of why the wall is there in the first place. I mean really, do you think a real artist would rather paint illegally under the pressure and risk being caught or paint a wall where they can take their time and make it an amazing peice of art. 

I have a wall to paint, thats mine and is completely legal. Im not here for me. Im here to try and help the city and its people better understand the problem at hand. Obviously everything has not worked. Graffiti is still here and just covering it up doesnt make a person stop painting. I just happend to stumble on this site and had to voice my opinions.

But before you go and assume things, at least get an opinion from someone who really KNOWS about graffiti and its culture. Jacksonville along with a lot of other places has problems with graffiti but just doent know how to handle it yet. Other citys have legal places to paint all over and the amound of illegal spray paint is not nearly as high as jacksonville. At the same time, places that DID have a place set up and have taken down will state that the Graffiti has went back up since the wall has been taken down.

If the city REALLY wants to help this problem, they need to change what their doing because it doesnt solve the problem. They just cover it up and hope no one comes back to paint it again.

[Jumpinjack]

So, what you are saying is that the store owners and dumpster owners, and JEA and FDOT need to wait  long enough until real art happens on their structures, electric boxes, interstate highway? You are saying that the problem will disappear if people quit trying to clean up their stores and schools? You are saying that more and more tagging will lead to art? Wow.

[spankye3]

did i say ANY of that? please point out anything of what i said that is in any relations to that......

Look. A legal wall will give people a chance to develpoe in a tolatlly legal and safe eniviroment. People wouldnt paint on illegal walls nearly as much if they had somewhere to go and paint. They can use this wall and if they choose to, develope their skills so that they can do painting for companys. It would take ONE DAY to build a wall. One day. The city cleans graffiti EVERYDAY.

What you just said has ABOSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with what i said. You need to reread what i stated (giving you the benifit of the doubt by assuming you read ANYTHING).

But what you siad speaks for itself. Good Job. You deffinetly know whats going on around you. Right.

[Bativac]

Hey Spankye - I can kind of understand where you're coming from. I'm a professional illustrator and the son of a professional artist (a painter as a matter of fact) so I'm not talking as some bitter angry "git off my property" guy. I agree a free wall would be great - but who decides when to paint over that wall to allow the graffiti to begin anew? Or do we leave the wall as an artistic statement and build a new wall?

Either way, there is not a valid excuse for damaging somebody's property. Skateboarders, rollerbladers, bicyclists - these guys are generally not damaging somebody's property, so it's nowhere close to the same thing. But even in that case - what if they do damage something that somebody else owns? Isn't it their responsibility to repair it?

The best way to fight this is the property owners or the city repainting the graffiti as soon as it appears. The mayors of New York have spent significant time and money fighting the problem. Check this article out:

http://www.cooperator.com/articles/1201/1/The-Mayor8217s-Anti-Graffiti-Task-Force/Page1.html

As for the cost of canvas - yeah, canvas is pricey. So in high school, I bought big sheets of cheap plywood for large painting projects. If these guys can afford spray paint, they can afford a cheap piece of plywood.

Again - I agree it'd be great to give these artists a place to express themselves. But to excuse their vandalism because such a place doesn't exist is absurd.

[spankye3]

well to start, skateboarders ect did do a lot of damage. the cost to repair a curb or a rail or to put a fence up is not nearly as much as the repainting of a wall. Not to mention the law suites to bussiness have to got thru becuase of some kid breakin and arm or leg because they fell on their property. But later on, people realize this and built skateparks so this wouldnt happen. The cost of one bucket of paint is about $20. A lawsuit can be thousands. To repair a curb and reconcrete it can be hundreds. Or a  new hand rail can be even more.

And im not sayin not having a legal wall is THE REASON people do it illegally. But it will make a significant difference in the amount that is actually illegal. You cant expect graffiti artist to paint for companies when they dont have a way to get to that level. Legal walls will help make that transition from garbage on bussiness to murals for companys.

And as far as the painting of a wall, paint covers paint. No one has to keep repainting it. You let it be. Graffiti writers often paint over walls that already have been painted. Thats not a problem. You build a wall, and forget about it. The writers will maintain it. If its in a public place, everyone has the right to paint.

unlike others forms of art, graffiti writers use a lot more space. far more really. I have tried to push the the idea of jacksonville having legals wall for sometime now. Im tyring to work with the city to make this happen. I offer the money out of my own pocket to pay for these things to happen. I can built it. No problem. Its just getting it approved. But sooner or later, theyll have to do something. all it takes is a few peices of plywood your right. But not everyone is going to do that. People are a lot more likely to go and paint a legal wall than to spend money out of pocket. Realistically. 

Again, having a place to paint will not "fix the problem". People will always break the law and people will always do what they are told not to. This is fact. It is part of our system. The jail, police, judges, public defenders, state attorneys, prosecuters NEED this to happen to maintain thers jobs. But thats a whole different topic. Our system is flawed. Period.

[Dog Walker]

Free walls have been tried in a lot of communities around the country.  They don't work very well (www.graffitihurts.org).  All of the streets leading to the walls gradually get covered up with tags too because the wall fills up.

But maybe someone is missing a business opportunity.  Rather than a "free" wall what if someone were to set up a "pay" wall?  Take and old warehouse with a big blank wall.  Fence it off.  Allow entrance for X dollars per session.  It doesn't need to be much.  Have people take spray paint and practice all they want and take pictures of it.  When the wall get filled, paint it out to create a fresh surface and repeat.

Do you think this would reduce the amount of tagging of public surfaces  that occurs?  Me either.  But it would let real artists have a place and let a property owner make a bit of profit.

[Coolyfett]

Early Thursday morning, JSO arrested Bryson Dale Bowman, 22, while he was putting up one of his distinctive, metallic paint SIMON tags.

Bowman, the son of the owner of Jaguar Bail Bonds, has so far been charged with two counts of felony criminal mischief and seven counts of misdemeanor criminal mischief.  More charges may be filed as information comes in from other parts of the city about damage there.

A JSO spokesman says that Bowman has done over a hundred-thousand dollars worth of damage in the City.

Bowman was released on $25,000 bond from Jaguar Bail Bonds.

So it this good or bad news??? Many major cities these sort of artist. Im fine with them as long as they hit the right things and not the wrong things.

[Coolyfett]

tags...everywhere .. and seems they love tagging buildings.  If you want to see 40 years of graffiti , visit School 4 . its completely covered inside. Now they are working on the outside.  Some may consider it art.. tagging buildings , dumpsters, whatever, is, at least to me, a nuisance at best.

I am not a big fan of the tagging, but I guess there is a lot worse they could be doing. Id like to see the graph work.

[spankye3]

Dogwalker- its good to know at least your trying to deal with this in what seems to be an optimistic nature. Thats not a bad idea at all. These are the kinds of ideas that needs to be talked about.
Graffiti is going to happen. But there needs to be better ways of controling it.

And about the "graffiti hurts" website, all you have to done is look at the name of the site and OF COARSE its going to say a legal doesnt help. That website is opinoin based and not fact based. It will talk about all the cases and times it hasnt worked and not the times it has. You need more than one website (that obviously is against it) to have a justifiable opinion whether or not it will work. Their not going to state how good it worked....

[Tacachale]

Public walls may be good for some things and can be really cool community features, but the general consensus appears to be that they don't do anything to stop graffiti vandalism elsewhere. The famous de facto free wall on 34th Street in Gainesville certainly hasn't stopped vandals from hitting up other areas of town. For one thing, a lot of people who paint on it are the types who would never vandalize a non-free space; it also attracts people from out of town who would otherwise not have come all the way to Gainesville just to spray paint a wall. It's a local institution, but it hasn't done a thing to curb or channel graffiti vandalism in the city.

The idea that graffiti is only temporary is absolutely absurd. Some stunted little felons disgraced the Tovar House and the Castillo San Marcos in St. Augustine with their stupid tags a while ago. There's no way to clean it off without crumbling the walls, it will be there forever.

I for one don't care if those savages go on to be the next Banksy, the damage they've done to historic architecture is irreversible.

[Dog Walker]

Dogwalker- its good to know at least your trying to deal with this in what seems to be an optimistic nature. Thats not a bad idea at all. These are the kinds of ideas that needs to be talked about.
Graffiti is going to happen. But there needs to be better ways of controling it.

And about the "graffiti hurts" website, all you have to done is look at the name of the site and OF COARSE its going to say a legal doesnt help. That website is opinoin based and not fact based. It will talk about all the cases and times it hasnt worked and not the times it has. You need more than one website (that obviously is against it) to have a justifiable opinion whether or not it will work. Their not going to state how good it worked....

The Graffiti Hurts organization is a part of Keep America Beautiful, Inc. and the major funder is Sherman-Williams, the makers of Krylon spray paint.  They have funded sociological research from major universities about graffiti and have learned that it harms communities, hurts business and lower property values.  They have very good recommendations about how to control graffiti, publish model legislation re: graffiti and what kinds of programs work to de-glamorize graffiti.

Graffiti tagging is not the start of some great artistic career.  It is property vandalism fueled by rebellion and disrespect social norms by those who have nothing valuable of their own and is very, very frequently a "gateway" crime that leads to more serious ones. 

There are serious artists who use spray paint as a medium.  They do not spray their paint in places where it is not wanted.

That you defend graffiti vandalism in any form reveals your own immaturity and lack of serious artistic intent.  Graffiti is about "showing off" not about art.

[Go skate fatty]

What I believe.. Are there are 2 sides to this story, of which both hold valuable points. You have the side of the artist & the one of the concerned citizen. I don't agree with vandalism, nor approve. But at the same time I am torn between these two very relative arguments.

You see, as one who isn't the artist, you have to put yourself in their shoes. Alot of artist do graffiti, simply to stay occupied, to stay out of trouble even. They get bored, try something and become obsessed. Some do it as a rebellion against authority, for watever reason, and those are generally a nuisance. Personally I don't have a problem with graffiti, some of it I find interesting. But I'm also not a business owner.

As one who is the artist, you must understand not everyones view of art is the same and not everyone will approve or understand you. also not many are likely to agree or sympathize with one they view an ongoing nuisance.

The point is graffiti is everywhere. Wether there be a legal place to do it (which could improve it) or not, it's gonna be there. There really is no stopping it. I think as a community we should expect it, and accept it's something that will always be dealt with.

Key factor:  one thing you folks need to realize, is these "real artist" you speak of weren't born with paint in their hands. If fact I guarantee 90 percent of the artists you admire started out as a "pain in the ass tagger nuisance". Gotta get ahead some how.

Art is limitless.. Not all artist can be contained.

If Jacksonville city officials really cared how our city looked... Our downtown area would be improved including a few other areas. The majority of vandalism of all sorts is portrayed in the downtown area due to the fact that it is so often ignored. Our tax dollars could be very well better placed. They want to spend all this time money and effort on such a nonviolent crime, Yet take sports out of schools. What do you think these kids will do now? Probably paint a building or possibly find a worse crime to occupy their time. .........Just think about it!