STREETCAR NOW JACKSONVILLE!

[Ocklawaha]

By the way, apparently the 5 cent fare never happened either! What a gaggle of vultures.

OCKLAWAHA

[Jason]

- St. Johns to King (Corner of St. Vincents)  allows for extension west along St. Johns
- King to Park (allows for extension down King)
- Park to JTC (via 5 points)
- JTC to Landing via Water Street
- Water to Main Street
- Main to 8th and on to Shands


I like Park street because it is more central to Riverside and would be more accessible by pedestrians, is a more commercial corridor giving direct access to more buisnesses and maintains a more direct route to the JTC and on into downtown.  Oak is too residential and Riverside is too isolated.

[cline]

There is quite a bit of commercial along Oak that would be well served and revitalized by a streetcar line down that road.  Also, it has the width to accomodate streetcars as well as cars.  Park does not have that luxury in some areas. 

[iMarvin]

- St. Johns to King (Corner of St. Vincents)  allows for extension west along St. Johns
- King to Park (allows for extension down King)
- Park to JTC (via 5 points)
- JTC to Landing via Water Street
- Water to Main Street
- Main to 8th and on to Shands


I like Park street because it is more central to Riverside and would be more accessible by pedestrians, is a more commercial corridor giving direct access to more buisnesses and maintains a more direct route to the JTC and on into downtown.  Oak is too residential and Riverside is too isolated.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

[urbanlibertarian]

The advantages that automobiles will continue to have over mass transit (except places like Manhattan and the Loop) is convenience and autonomy.  IMO, those are the qualities that people value most about their cars and transit can't really compete with that.  I don't think people have been coerced or bamboozled into automobiles, they chose them because it made their lives better.

[Ocklawaha]

OCALA STREET RAILWAY WHICH RAN FROM OCALA TO MARTI CITY.

The mystery is the rampant growth of the highway industry as a whole was directly proportional to the demise of the nations electric railways. The single thing that most people miss is found in your statement (except places like Manhattan and the Loop) the fact is we were ALL Manhattan and the Loop 80 years ago. Palatka, Fernandina and Amelia Island all had streetcar companies. So did places like Longwood, Altamonte Springs, and Green Cove Springs. Once that was dismantled then yes, the freedom was gone and we were FORCED to use the automobile. It's a bit of both actually, but legally the automobile industry was found guilty of a crime.

Shall we all discuss airships next? Same story different address...

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

Oak, Park and Riverside have commercial.  Oak would gain the most from revitalization cost the least in length and road renovation.  Oak is one block from Riverside two from Park that route could serve all three streets from King through five points.  Then a shift to riverside to Forrest then to park and the JTC.  That route would maximize people and places served and be the easiest to implement. imo

[iMarvin]

While a streetcar is supposed to revitalize areas they are also supposed to help what's already there. None of the routes should be based solely on revitalization.

[thelakelander]

^You're right.  However, that short stretch of Oak accomplishes several items, including helping what's already there, being more cost efficient, accessible to major destinations and revitalization.

[iMarvin]

^But is it really worth it? The only thing Oak St has going for it, IMO, is being more cost efficient. But then again, estimates haven't been made so Oak might not be the most cost efficient.

And did you vote for Oak, Park, or Riverside?

[JeffreyS]

I voted for Oak but I agree with Lake only on that short stretch. After 5 points I like a breif stint on Riverside then up Forrest to park.  I really do think Oak from Kings to 5 points serves all three roads and would not impact traffic.  I may be partial as I think that stretch of Oak is one of the best streets in Riverside and it is already wide enough.

[iMarvin]

^If I was on the streetcar on Oak, I wouldn't walk over to Park. I don't think many people would. Park wouldn't serve Riverside or Oak, it would serve Park. It's in a more central area than the other streets and goes more places.

[cline]

^If I was on the streetcar on Oak, I wouldn't walk over to Park. I don't think many people would. Park wouldn't serve Riverside or Oak, it would serve Park. It's in a more central area than the other streets and goes more places.

The area of Oak that the Streetcar would be running is less then 550 ft. (2 short blocks) from Park.  It is also 1 block from Riverside.  We're not talking miles away here. 

[Doctor_K]

^If I was on the streetcar on Oak, I wouldn't walk over to Park. I don't think many people would. Park wouldn't serve Riverside or Oak, it would serve Park. It's in a more central area than the other streets and goes more places.

Fair point about location.

And by looking at Google Earth and taking into account some of Lake's and Chris' previous points, you've got that cluster of RAM/Cummer etc on Riverside.  It would be a shame to bypass those.  

Riverside isn't as centralized as Park or even Oak, but it's a straight shot that has culture, a big hospital, and a successful-if-small commercial area in the Shoppes of Avondale.  Yes Oak is more ready to accommodate a streetcar line width-wise, but there's more on Riverside and more on Park.

Didn't multiple lines run through the area, if I remember Ock's old maps correctly?  What would be the harm in having a line down Riverside and another down, say, Post (ideally speaking, of course)?

[Ocklawaha]

^But is it really worth it? The only thing Oak St has going for it, IMO, is being more cost efficient. But then again, estimates haven't been made so Oak might not be the most cost efficient.

And did you vote for Oak, Park, or Riverside?

I believe most of us agree on the KING to OAK to POST to RIVERSIDE to PARK AND/OR MYRTLE routing, the only part that is really a question mark to me is Myrtle or Park. IF the BRT comes south on Park, or if the Skyway is going to someday have a station at Riverside and Forest, then I'd prefer Myrtle.

Myrtle offers a unique opportunity to:

Revitalize a very historic and remaining section of Brooklyn's business area.

To reuse (and fix the drainage) in the historic Myrtle Avenue Subway, the only one in Florida.

Go right by the gate of the JTA yard, where it might be possible to establish a streetcar storage or maintenance yard.

Access Durkeeville, The Small Ballpark and open the possibility of access to Edward Waters College while still maintaining good access to the JRTC.

Now if nothing is planned for Park, and if the Skyway is dead (not just sleeping) then yes, Park makes sense provided FDOT will completely reconstruct the Lee Street Viaduct. This could allow for double streetcar tracks across the new bridge while providing clearance for Amtrak, Commuter Rail and the Florida East Coast trains.

If I was a developer of office towers I'd be pushing all three modes through Brooklyn as they go through the squeeze coming out of the station prior to fanning out across the city.

I'm also VERY fond of Post Street beyond King and on into Murray Hill, Normandy, Orange Park or where ever the future takes it, Post also appears to have been designed with streetcar expansion in mind, using gentle curves as opposed to corners.


OCKLAWAHA