STREETCAR NOW JACKSONVILLE!

[thelakelander]

^The skyway extension down Riverside isn't a part of the mobility plan.  When the plan is evaluated, the only skyway extension under consideration will be in San Marco, which is a completely different mobility zone.  In Riverside's mobility zone, the commuter rail corridor down Roosevelt came in second.  My guess is it would be the next transportation project to become a priority in that particular mobility zone once the streetcar project is completed.

[iMarvin]

^ If a streetcar does good in Riverside, and a commuter rail line is successful, I think they will see what they can do about skyway extensions in Riverside. That might be 15 years away but I'm hopeful.

[thelakelander]

I think once we get a couple of successful lines operating, anything will be possible (even actual skyway extension to spots like San Marco and the farmer's market area). Every city with our negative political will has done a complete 180, after seeing the benefits of fixed transit up close and personal.

[iMarvin]

I think once we get a couple of successful lines operating, anything will be possible (even actual skyway extension to spots like San Marco and the farmer's market area). Every city with our negative political will has done a complete 180, after seeing the benefits of fixed transit up close and personal.

That's what I've been trying to say. I'm not saying that the skyway is going to be extened immediately, it just needs to happen.

[Jimmy]

Agree with you, lake.  Which is why I'm glad we're going for the low-hanging fruit first.  And then, maybe, down the road... who knows.

[tufsu1]

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, everyone at this point knows what happened. Do we really need They worked before. They'll work again. The landscape has remained relatively unchanged.

except for that minor little thing called the automobile

[peestandingup]

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, everyone at this point knows what happened. Do we really need They worked before. They'll work again. The landscape has remained relatively unchanged.

except for that minor little thing called the automobile

What are you saying? That people just up & ditched the streetcars (and public transit in general) for the automobile?? If you just look on the surface, then sure. And yes, Americans by & large sure did have a giant boner for their cars for a long long time (many still do & they'd go bankrupt before they gave up their giant 12 mpg ride that makes them feel like more of a man).

But things were also def manipulated by big auto & big oil to play out the way they did too. That's not up for debate. You don't think its kinda funny that most modernized countries kept theirs throughout history & built upon what they had while we completely killed ours (and are now slowly putting back the pieces)??

I blame Detroit. They were the heart of our car centric, transit killing, suburban living, highway building culture that we've become. That's why I wouldn't piss on that town if it were on fire (and most nights, it is). Oh well, karma's a bitch ain't it.

[JeffreyS]

Jacksonville had streetcar after the onset of the automobile.  Cars were zooming all around when GM and Ford dismantled our streetcars.
No doubt the auto has become the dominate mode of transportation. That doesn't change that streetcar has been proven here and since proven elsewhere in our auto-centric society.

[north miami]

One of the "cool" things-and vital lesson- about residing at present day Riverside/Aberdeen is to gaze on embedded,clear evidence of former rail.(Former railway depicted with specific red brick alignment)

What tugged at the hearts of those who strived to keep the past so clearly evident???

A sense of destiny.

[tufsu1]

Jacksonville had streetcar after the onset of the automobile.  Cars were zooming all around when GM and Ford dismantled our streetcars.

true...but Americans didn't have nearly the auto ownership rates that we do now...streetcars started being phased out in the 1930s but transit use was still strong through the 1950s...check these stats...

In 1960 there were around 75 million registered vehicles....and 90 million drivers out of 180 million total pop. (50%)

In 2010 there are around 250 million registered vehicles...and 210 million drivers out of 310 million total pop. (68%)

That is a major shift in auto ownership rates as well as % of Americans that drive.

[Ralph W]

On my way home tonight on Riverside I saw a possibility.

An extension of the skyway across Forest to a brand new stop atop the portico of the Blue Cross/Blue Shield building. The reason? BCBS has a parking lot down the street, next to the old fire house that is just itching to be developed into real revenue producing and public river access property.

Where would BCBS personnel park? Damned if I know right now but obviously the garage behind the building isn't enough so, if all the employees got a free ride and free parking at some out of the way lot or garage that would also be right at another skyway stop - think King? - it might work. A totally under cover out of the elements trip, each way, instead of a walk across and down the street in the elements.

Additionally, it would look cool to see a skyway station as part of a commercial building.

More to come after I look at a map.

Map says the skyway then hangs a right on Roselle and continues on to Annie Lytle.

And if BCBS doesn't like the front door service and the cool look, build the station around the corner on Roselle but still have covered access to the BCBS parking garage.

[Ocklawaha]

At the hey day of the first streetcar epoch America had 21,500,000 horses, a number that would shrink as the animals vanished from the streets at a rate of 500,000 per year throughout the 1920's. (US CENSUS DATA-Current US Populations for wild and domestic horses-historical data) By 1960 the population in the US was 3 million animals. It can be argued that the automobile was the replacement for the horse, and the bus was a trumped up "stand in" for the old streetcars, but a stand in that after the fact, cities almost immediately began to question. Too late to save themselves from the strangulation of asphalt and smog.

In 1900 America had thousands of miles of electric rail transit across the country. The streetcar didn't die because Americans had some natural affection for automobiles over rail transportation, quite the opposite as the population was quite content with it's mass railroad investments and services. So much so that Alfred P. Sloan, JR. THE CEO of General Motors according to GM's own records established a special hit squad aimed at the streetcar industry. Sloan, believed the automobile market was maxed out in 1921. GM had lost $65 million in 1921, and by 1922 the task force was in business. Sloan charged, this force with the task of replacing America's electric railways with cars, trucks and buses Sloan said the only way to increase sales and restore profit was to eliminate the electric railway competition.

At the time, 90 percent of all trips were by rail, chiefly electric rail; only one in 10 Americans owned an automobile. There were 1,200 separate electric street and interurban railways, a thriving and profitable industry with 44,000 miles of track, 300,000 employees, 15 billion annual passengers, and $1 billion in income. Virtually every city and town in America of more than 2,500 people had its own electric rail system.

General Motors as the nations largest shipper of freight used that leverage to coheres the railroads into giving up all support to their electric railroad properties. One should recall that the Jacksonville Electric Railroad, forerunner of Jacksonville Traction was owned by railroad magnet Henry B. Plant.

This den of wolves went after Southern Pacific's, Pacific Electric Railway in Southern California, which operated over 1,500 miles of track covering some 75 miles out from Los Angles. They went after the Key System in the Bay Area, Minneapolis-St. Paul, 600 miles of the NY State Railways, in each event refusing to ship over railroads that held electric railway properties.

They pushed for and got a federal law enacted that forbade utility companies from owning electric railways, and as the largest depositor in the USA, GM played the banking industry to withhold badly needed finance to the street railway and interurban industry.

No, people didn't have a boner for the automobile, at least not until they were displaced from their spacious streetcars and packed like sardines into foul smelling, cramped little buses. Then amazingly one by one all of the former streetcar companies which had become bus companies went bankrupt, this forced public ownership of mass transit.

If you have never seen it, PLEASE get a copy of the film 'WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT?' A feature length cartoon/comedy that wraps it's entire plot into murder and intrigue surrounding the streetcar conspiracy in Los Angeles. You'll laugh yourself silly, but you'll learn a great deal about how it was done.

Here's your proof... You see it WAS settled in court and General Motors was found guilty.

UNITED STATES V. NATIONAL CITY LINES, INC., 334 U. S. 573 (1948)

Case Preview

Full Text of Case
U.S. Supreme Court
United States v. National City Lines, Inc., 334 U.S. 573 (1948)

United States v. National City Lines, Inc.

No. 544

Argued April 28, 1948

Decided June 7, 1948

334 U.S. 573

APPEAL FROM THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

National City Lines, Inc. Delaware Chicago

American City Lines, Inc. " "

Pacific City Lines, Inc. " Oakland, Calif.

Standard Oil Co. of California " San Francisco

Federal Engineering Corp. California "

Phillips Petroleum Co. Delaware Bartlesville, Okla.

General Motors Corp. " Detroit, Mich.

Firestone Tire & Rubber Co. Ohio Akron, Ohio

Mack Manufacturing Corp. Delaware New York

James Towley Presenting check to Fred Ossanna with burning streetcar behind them
Men are named from left to right. The last streetcars in Minneapolis were burned in 1954. Ossanna was the head of the Twin City Rapid Transit Company.  He also got kickbacks from Standard Oil and General Motors to convert the system from streetcars to buses.  

Ossanna, who had an association with local gangster Isadore Blumenfeld was later convicted of mail fraud and sentenced to four years in prison.  Barney Larrick, TCRT vice president was sentenced to two years.  TCRT also filed a civil suit against Ossanna, seeking restitution for losses from assets (like scrap metal, copper) that were sold at below market prices for kickbacks.  Those convicted pocketed over $1 million of TCRT assets in 1950 dollars

All of these companies and all of the evil clowns above were found guilty of conspiracy. So you can argue this any way you want, judgment supported the plaintiffs, all defendants got flushed when they were FOUND GUILTY of deliberately dismantling the transit systems in order to FORCE the ownership of Automobiles. Few went to prison, and the fines were fixed at a couple thousand dollars per company... the fix was in and the government threw in the towel. Had you been a Councilman in Jacksonville, the day after announcing the streetcar company was bought out by motor transit, GM announced Jacksonville as a location of the first REGIONAL full line parts warehouse. Had you been in Tampa, you would have been driving a brand new LaSalle Automobile.

Yeah, tell me how this was a natural death...

Key scene from Roger Rabbit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gURUMv7qZW0&feature=related

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

Jacksonville had streetcar after the onset of the automobile.  Cars were zooming all around when GM and Ford dismantled our streetcars.

true...but Americans didn't have nearly the auto ownership rates that we do now...streetcars started being phased out in the 1930s but transit use was still strong through the 1950s...check these stats...

In 1960 there were around 75 million registered vehicles....and 90 million drivers out of 180 million total pop. (50%)

In 2010 there are around 250 million registered vehicles...and 210 million drivers out of 310 million total pop. (68%)

That is a major shift in auto ownership rates as well as % of Americans that drive.

I would have thought there would have been a much bigger shift than 18%.  Look at it this way according to your numbers we went from 90 million non drivers to 100 million. The need for transit grew.

[peestandingup]

Add to that, the very same taxpaying citizens that GM screwed over by forcing them all to drive ended up bailing them out before they could meet their just demise. Whatta country! I bet if you traveled back in time to the early 30s & told someone living in the city how this was all gonna unfold, they'd think you were joking.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=68X2MWAE Taken For A Ride. An out of print, seldom shown on TV 1996 PBS documentary on the destruction of our transportation system. Watch it, study it, get mad, fix things.

Oh, and yes. Also watch Who Framed Roger Rabbit. Study it too. Not for the streetcar scandal, but to find out if you really can see Jessica Rabbit's bare nether regions in that one frame shot.

[Ocklawaha]

Oh, and yes. Also watch Who Framed Roger Rabbit. Study it too. Not for the streetcar scandal, but to find out if you really can see Jessica Rabbit's bare nether regions in that one frame shot.

Jessica was Hot! 

Otherwise...

In the case of who stole our streetcars, this from the trial transcripts of United States v National City Lines
Page 334 U. S. 575

The suit was brought by the United States against nine corporations [Footnote 2] for alleged violation of §§ 1 and 2 of the Sherman Act. 26 Stat. 209, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1, 2. The basic charge is that the appellees conspired to acquire control of local transportation companies in numerous cities located in widely different parts of the United States, [Footnote 3] and to restrain and monopolize interstate commerce in motor busses, petroleum supplies, tires and tubes sold to those companies, contrary to the Act's prohibitions. [Footnote 4]

[Footnote 3]Forty-four cities in sixteen states are included. The states are as widely scattered as California, Florida, Maryland, Michigan, Nebraska, Texas, and Washington. The larger local transportation systems include those of Baltimore, St. Louis, Salt Lake City, Los Angeles and Oakland. The largest concentrations of smaller systems are in Illinois, with eleven cities; California with nine (excluding Los Angeles), and Michigan with four. The local operating companies were not named as parties defendant.


OCKLAWAHA