STREETCAR NOW JACKSONVILLE!

[JeffreyS]

If you aren't willing to walk 2 blocks, public transit, in any form, probably isn't for you. Guess what it's not going to pick you up at your front door either.

I think Oak makes the most sense- it's allows people to be a short distance from both Park and Riverside. Because Oak doesn't connect all the way through avondale the traffic on it is far less than Park and Riverside. If an extension is ever added I think it could cut up from Oak to St. Johns towards the shops.

Guess what, I know that! Thinking about it now, a two-block walk is fine, but a stop on Oak isn't guaranteed to be the ideal stop for Park.

You are right that none of them will be perfect but which ever one we choose will one day be almost perfect as the area develops in relation to the route.

I can't believe it but I hear people complain about how far the skyway is from the Landing.

[thelakelander]

I thought it was 1/2 mile for fixed transit and 1/4 mile for bus. I guess you learn something all the time.

this is the generally accepted range nationally...but given the heat and humidity of Florida (and our aging population) many feel the radii should be reduced....personally I'm good with 1/3 mile for rail and 1/4 mile for bus

That makes sense. My sister in law lives about 1/2 mile from Damon station in Wicker Park and that seems like such an easy walk.  Of course it is one of the most interesting neighborhoods to walk through.

Yes, depending on the context/urban environment, people will walk further.  Using Oak as an example, you get more who will be willing to walk 1/2 mile down Margaret than you will those willing to walk the same distance down Osceola.

[Doctor_K]

What would be the harm in having a line down Riverside and another down, say, Post (ideally speaking, of course)?

Not enough funds to double up.  Make things too complicated and expensive and you risk the chance of nothing happening (ex. the skyway extensions).  However, I agree with cline.  These streets aren't miles apart and there is one in the middle of the two main streets that was built for a streetcar (meaning its already wide enough), is easily accessible to destinations on Park & Riverside, and could use a little revitalization of its own.

Ok.  I'll buy that.  What about the Cummer and RAM further north on Riverside?  They're well below Forest, so no chance of Skyway service; and they're above and beyond the 1/4-mile radius of any streetcar terminus in 5-points.

[iMarvin]

If you aren't willing to walk 2 blocks, public transit, in any form, probably isn't for you. Guess what it's not going to pick you up at your front door either.

I think Oak makes the most sense- it's allows people to be a short distance from both Park and Riverside. Because Oak doesn't connect all the way through avondale the traffic on it is far less than Park and Riverside. If an extension is ever added I think it could cut up from Oak to St. Johns towards the shops.

Guess what, I know that! Thinking about it now, a two-block walk is fine, but a stop on Oak isn't guaranteed to be the ideal stop for Park.

You are right that none of them will be perfect but which ever one we choose will one day be almost perfect as the area develops in relation to the route.

I can't believe it but I hear people complain about how far the skyway is from the Landing.

What I'm really saying is that Oak will have the least amount of ridership between the two.

And the skyway is not too far from the Landing.

[cline]

What would be the harm in having a line down Riverside and another down, say, Post (ideally speaking, of course)?

Not enough funds to double up.  Make things too complicated and expensive and you risk the chance of nothing happening (ex. the skyway extensions).  However, I agree with cline.  These streets aren't miles apart and there is one in the middle of the two main streets that was built for a streetcar (meaning its already wide enough), is easily accessible to destinations on Park & Riverside, and could use a little revitalization of its own.

Ok.  I'll buy that.  What about the Cummer and RAM further north on Riverside?  They're well below Forest, so no chance of Skyway service; and they're above and beyond the 1/4-mile radius of any streetcar terminus in 5-points.

In this area the Streetcar would run on Riverside so it would run directly adjacent to the Cummer as well as RAM. 

[thelakelander]

Oak directly serves Riverside Square, the Park & King strip and St. Vincents is one block away.  However, St. Vincent's property abuts Oak and as they expand, they'll have facilities on Oak as well.

[Doctor_K]

What I'm really saying is that Oak will have the least amount of ridership between the two.

Then again, maybe not.  Mass transit is supposed to go to where people generally work, live, and/or play, right?

That part of Oak looks like it's more residential than anything.  And the entire section of the neighborhood, regardless of whether we're talking Park, Oak, or Riverside, is largely and mostly residential.  Having the streetcar go from near the hospital, up the main strip of residential on Oak, up to near 5 Points, and (hopefully) near/past the Cummer, RAM, and up towards BCBS et al, then you've just hit all three categories: live, play, work.

I know that not everyone on Oak works on that northern section of Riverside, naturally, but at least this way it touches all three 'zones.'

Can you tell I'm still locked into SimCity-style thinking?

[Doctor_K]

What would be the harm in having a line down Riverside and another down, say, Post (ideally speaking, of course)?

Not enough funds to double up.  Make things too complicated and expensive and you risk the chance of nothing happening (ex. the skyway extensions).  However, I agree with cline.  These streets aren't miles apart and there is one in the middle of the two main streets that was built for a streetcar (meaning its already wide enough), is easily accessible to destinations on Park & Riverside, and could use a little revitalization of its own.

Ok.  I'll buy that.  What about the Cummer and RAM further north on Riverside?  They're well below Forest, so no chance of Skyway service; and they're above and beyond the 1/4-mile radius of any streetcar terminus in 5-points.

In this area the Streetcar would run on Riverside so it would run directly adjacent to the Cummer as well as RAM.  

OK - so:

one end at King; up Oak to Margaret, Margaret to Riverside, Riverside up to Forest?  On a map at least, that looks fabulous.  I'm changing my vote to Oak.

[cline]

From what I understand it would be basically begin on the western end at King and Oak (there would actually be a jog up to the north to Park...I think...so you could say it begins at Park and King).  Once on Oak it would travel east to Margerate Street and then head north (between 1661 and where the new Chew would be) until it got to Post.  From Post it would go east to Riverside then north on Riverside.  From that point there is still discussion as to what would be the best route.  I think Ock talked about it a little a few pages back.  Someone here correct me if that is wrong.

That part of Oak looks like it's more residential than anything.  And the entire section of the neighborhood, regardless of whether we're talking Park, Oak, or Riverside, is largely and mostly residential.

There is actually quite a bit of commerciall on Oak, especially between Copeland and Stockton and obviously, once you get closer to 5 points.

[iMarvin]

What I'm really saying is that Oak will have the least amount of ridership between the two.

Then again, maybe not.  Mass transit is supposed to go to where people generally work, live, and/or play, right?

That part of Oak looks like it's more residential than anything.  And the entire section of the neighborhood, regardless of whether we're talking Park, Oak, or Riverside, is largely and mostly residential.  Having the streetcar go from near the hospital, up the main strip of residential on Oak, up to near 5 Points, and (hopefully) near/past the Cummer, RAM, and up towards BCBS et al, then you've just hit all three categories: live, play, work.

I know that not everyone on Oak works on that northern section of Riverside, naturally, but at least this way it touches all three 'zones.'

Can you tell I'm still locked into SimCity-style thinking?

Yeah I still kinda play SimCity.

Anyways, it wouldn't hit anything on Park. Park is more important than Oak, IMO.

[PeeJayEss]

There is actually quite a bit of commerciall on Oak, especially between Copeland and Stockton and obviously, once you get closer to 5 points.

Yea, the difference in commercial between Park and Oak from Barrs to Goodwin is basically a wash. It is mostly doctor's offices and realtors, etc. In fact, I'd probably give the advantage to Oak in this section, as there are 2 restaurants, a convenience store, laundromat (the places people hit on a daily basis), and block of 3 (currently vacant) commercial properties. When you get to five points, there's much more along Oak (maybe hitting five points at the actual point would be an advantage for Park, but is there actually somewhere to put a stop there?). By hitting Park and King you really take care of anything "major" on Park. The only advantage to the Park line I believe would be hitting 2 churches. One of those is really close to King anyway, and neither is a serious walk from Oak.

The main shortcoming I see, which I imagine is a later-phase consideration, is basically leaving out the north end of Riverside. It would be nice to swing up to the Stockton Street businesses (in the process putting most of Riverside within ~2 blocks of streetcar.

Nonetheless, bring it one!

[Kay]

Park is a mere two blocks from Oak.  If you're not willing to walk two blocks from Park to Oak (0.12 miles) then you certainly can't expect anyone to use a Park Street streetcar to access St. Vincent's (front door is 0.30 miles from Park), Publix or any other major destination along Riverside.  That means, your ridership just took a huge dive because you've taken out the lines attractiveness for residents who live outside Riverside or the ability to resolve St. Vincent's space contraints.  As mentioned earlier, Riverside is not dense or populated enough to support a $50 million streetcar line on its own.  So whatever is developed has to be put together with the foresight that it needs to appeal to a much larger population than the immediate area.

What you are missing is all those folks that live between Park and the highway.  Ernest to Oak is a hike.

[Jimmy]

Ernest to Park is a hike.  Certainly more of a hike to Oak...

[thelakelander]

Don't forget that there will be BRT, commuter rail and regular bus routes in the area as well, in addition to better bike and ped facilities.  In fact, the commuter rail line will hug the north/west side of Riverside on the tracks that run past Bold City.  If anything, compared to most urban Jax neighborhoods, Riverside is coming up pretty well in terms of mass transit investment that will directly enhance its quality of life and economic opportunity.

[Kay]

Park is a mere two blocks from Oak.  If you're not willing to walk two blocks from Park to Oak (0.12 miles) then you certainly can't expect anyone to use a Park Street streetcar to access St. Vincent's (front door is 0.30 miles from Park), Publix or any other major destination along Riverside.  That means, your ridership just took a huge dive because you've taken out the lines attractiveness for residents who live outside Riverside or the ability to resolve St. Vincent's space contraints.  As mentioned earlier, Riverside is not dense or populated enough to support a $50 million streetcar line on its own.  So whatever is developed has to be put together with the foresight that it needs to appeal to a much larger population than the immediate area.

What you are missing is all those folks that live between Park and the highway.  Ernest to Oak is a hike.

Well, maybe not.  It's 8 blocks.