Metro Jacksonville

Is Springfield Ready for a Car Wash?

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Can a car wash be a part of an urban revitalization plan? After heated opposition and misinformation dominating discussion about the 4th & Main project, owner Silas Jones has modified development plans to better integrate the project within the community. Can common ground be found that will finally lead to project approval and new life along the Main Street corridor?

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jan-is-springfield-ready-for-a-car-wash

Good work MJ.  You've contributed in a very positive, measurable way to a emotion-filled crazy debate.  Let's hope that businesses will be encouraged to open on Main Street, supported by the neighborhood and the city, and economic growth and diversity of services will result in a more vibrant community.

Contentdesign group has done a fabulous job. 

Other than noise, what is the community's issue with it?

The nise would be during normal work hours when most people are not home and is not that substantial to begin with.

I believe that the noise was measured, and found to be negligible.

Quote from: vicupstate on January 06, 2010, 07:43:45 AM
Other than noise, what is the community's issue with it?

The noise would be during normal work hours when most people are not home and is not that substantial to begin with.

There was a fear that it might add too much traffic to 4th Street, bring a criminal element into the area and that its a use (automobile related) that some in the hood simply don't want.

Most of the noise of the machines is contained in the building. I don't really think this will be an issue.

Judging by other car wash stores their fears it will become another convienence store is groundless. It will provide some jobs in the area and provide a service. They can limit the chairs and tables in the outside seating area to a few benches and limit the hanging around loitering.

It also provides a number of  jobs.

By the way, there is a similar car wash in the Midtown section of Atlanta.

I disagree with limiting seating. I think seating needs to be an important part of this. Maybe have the store work out a deal with City Kidz, Uptown market, Or even Three Layers to carry some limited, pre-packaged lunch items. A win win for all involved. Wouldn't it be cool if Three Layers would sell a themos of coffee for this store, or had those great tuna and croissant sammiches available in the store?

I think adding pedestrian elements can only help this plan. Im glad that Design Content added some nice looking seating.

What is S.p.a.r.'s current position on this matter? Are will they be waiting again for a better moment to ambush the project before making it known?

Here is where I get confused.  According to the letter written by Mr Jones, he has already spent almost $700K on the property and it is still an eyesore....................

So the renderings of what the building could look like are fantastic but are they realisitc when you look at the money that has been spent and what the proerty currently looks like.  My fear would be that we have a business operating in that area that doesn't look much different than it does today, and allot of people loitering in the area.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 06, 2010, 08:52:31 AM

and that its a use (automobile related) that some in the hood simply don't want.

was springfield suddenly overtaken by the amish? there is a jeep repair place across the street and no one seems to worry about that automobile related use. 

Jacksonville.com has a related article out today about SPAR's relationship with current and prospective business owners in Springfield.

QuoteWork on Jacksonville's Main Street almost done, but some merchants feel unwelcome
Thrift store and pawn shop owners say project supporters want them gone

Road construction on Main Street in Jacksonville's Springfield neighborhood is almost done, and businesses like Team Recovery's Thrift Store are thankful.

"While the construction was occurring, it got pretty bad for us," store manager Tom McPhillips said. "It was dusty so we couldn't leave the front door open and it was also noisy."

As McPhillips spoke, the view from outside the window on the 1700 block of North Main showed a four-lane street with a tree-filled median with antique-style streetlights. City officials say all that's left to do on the $14 million project that began in November 2007 is to install brick crosswalks. That will be done by next month.

The construction is part of an effort to revitalize the eight-block neighborhood and with it attract new, upscale business. And that has thrift stores like Team Recovery and pawn shops like Money Tree Jewelry and Pawn hoping to succeed.

But they also feel that the people who pushed for the revitalization - mainly, the Springfield Preservation and Revitalization Council, a residents group that has worked with the city - don't really want them around.

"My view is that a rising tide lifts all boats, but SPAR doesn't seem to want us here," McPhillips said.

Full article:
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-01-06/story/work_on_jacksonvilles_main_street_almost_done_but_some_merchants_feel_un

Quote from: cindi on January 06, 2010, 10:26:49 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 06, 2010, 08:52:31 AM

and that its a use (automobile related) that some in the hood simply don't want.

was springfield suddenly overtaken by the amish? there is a jeep repair place across the street and no one seems to worry about that automobile related use. 

Good point.

Quote from: tpot on January 06, 2010, 10:14:29 AM
Here is where I get confused.  According to the letter written by Mr Jones, he has already spent almost $700K on the property and it is still an eyesore....................

So the renderings of what the building could look like are fantastic but are they realisitc when you look at the money that has been spent and what the proerty currently looks like.  My fear would be that we have a business operating in that area that doesn't look much different than it does today, and allot of people loitering in the area.

To go either way on this point, one would have to have some knowledge of how much it would cost to open such a business.  I don't know for sure on this one, but in many cases opening a business could easily be over a million depending on what it is.  From this standpoint and since it has nothing to do with gaining a zoning exception, I don't know if its right for us novices to base a land use approval decision on guessing what's the right amount of money to spend on a business most of us have no clue about.

Quotewas springfield suddenly overtaken by the amish? there is a jeep repair place across the street and no one seems to worry about that automobile related use.

The car wash would probably have a higher trip generation rate so it would be considered more automobile intensive than the Jeep place.

so, all those people that the "upscale" store owners are going to attract are going to get here from riverside/san marco/arlington/southside via teleport? a nice stroll across the mathews bridge perhaps? maybe during the football off season those guys with the bike taxis can contract to springfield.

SPAR has its own agenda............some how that does not include the people who allready live there! Some how I get the impression if any business is not on the approved SPAR list.......they will have obstacles to leap over and over and over! Last I heard the SPAR membership was declining big time and no one seems to know why?

Quote from: Dan B on January 06, 2010, 09:19:09 AM
I disagree with limiting seating. I think seating needs to be an important part of this. Maybe have the store work out a deal with City Kidz, Uptown market, Or even Three Layers to carry some limited, pre-packaged lunch items. A win win for all involved. Wouldn't it be cool if Three Layers would sell a themos of coffee for this store, or had those great tuna and croissant sammiches available in the store?

I think adding pedestrian elements can only help this plan. Im glad that Design Content added some nice looking seating.

Not everywhere can be a restaurant. You won't find these things at long standing car washes. I've been to car washes in Mandarin, Orange Park, Philips/St Aug area, midtown Atlanta, and Sun City Fl. It would be a pioneer move, but likely to fail for the following,

A. If it takes you that long to get a semi automated carwash you've been going to the wrong place.

B. If you'd like to sit down and eat lunch next to people wiping dry cars and collecting tips you are likely a bit weird.

C. A collection of weird people at the seating area will make the customers want to go somewhere else. People go to car washes to get their cars washed quick. No other stuff.

D. One of the complaints was for it to be another convienence store.

E. It is counter productive for the car wash for customers to loiter after the car comes out of the line and is dried. There is another car coming out to take that spot.

Not a restaurant, so much as making the wares of other community vendors available. If they had wrapped sandwich from Three Layers instead of Dundee, and locally brewed coffee, It very possible someone would chose to sit and eat a sandwich or drink a cup of coffee while waiting for their car to be washed/dried.

It may not be feasible, I was just throwing it out there.

Quote from: Dan B on January 06, 2010, 11:41:23 AM
Not a restaurant, so much as making the wares of other community vendors available. If they had wrapped sandwich from Three Layers instead of Dundee, and locally brewed coffee, It very possible someone would chose to sit and eat a sandwich or drink a cup of coffee while waiting for their car to be washed/dried.

It may not be feasible, I was just throwing it out there.

I think it is a cool idea.

fyi, the "Proposed view from West 4th Street looking east" looks an awful lot like the "current view"

Is this intentional or did you use the wrong photo?

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/752700326_tJUra-M.jpg)

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The lot the cars are parked on is a different commercial parcel and is not a part of the project.

In the pictures above, the large bilboard sign appears to be coming down. How will people on Main be drawn into the place if they do not know a carwash is there? The only signing I could tell was there, was going to be on the building itself. Will this be easy enough to see from Main?

All this drama over a car wash?

Bostech..............SPAR appears to not want a "Car Wash"! It does not fit in with their ideal picture of what Springfield should look like! They appear to want high end stores (YEA.....that will really happen!) and cleaners and grocery stores...........I say "Spit on them" ! I can understand architectural guidelines but that's about the limit other than that SPAR can go sit on a stick............membership declining and they wonder why?

I live in Springfield and don't see how a car wash would be a detriment to the neighborhood?

From a practical perspective I have a driveway in which to was my car, but most of my neighbors do not. With the street parking cars get dirty quickly. It makes sense to have a car wash in the neighborhood. A walkable neighborhood isn't a car free neighborhood anywhere in America, even NYC.

From a "quality of businesses in the neighborhood" perspective the Avondale-Ortega residents using Charles & George's car wash on Roosevelt don't seem to haughty to have something so plebeian as a car wash in their midst, and these plans look as if the business will be comparable to that.

It seems to me that a key to revitalizing the neighborhood is to get people into the neighborhood that don't currently think "springfield" when they think of procuring goods and services. The office worker that pops over for a carwash at lunchtime today, might think to come back for lunch at Uptown Market tomorrow, and might see a house for sale they didn't previously know about to come look at over the weekend. A healthy neighborhood has a variety of businesses, and while upscale eateries are nice, not every available spot that a restaurant could possibly go, should have one if the neighborhood is really going to thrive.

P.S. Thanks, now I have that song in my head "get your car washed today...."

A few thoughts

- i can see it both ways. ultimately, i signed the online car wash petition.

- i know for fact that the SPAR board doesn't disagree with having a nice, well-maintained, successful, carwash in the neighborhood.

It's the precedent that is set.

That's what the main issue is: precedent. Makes it easier for other car related businesses to open up....some that may be not as desriable, nice, or well-maintained.

- speaking of which, though the renderings look great.......it may fall short of what is presented. Money issues, etc. I'd be very interesting in seeing an estimate on how much these upgrades and changes would cost. And if the owner has the means to maintain them once finished.

Those are the issues to wrestle with that have no "right" answer, as you can't predict the future.

Ultimately, after meeting Mr. Jones and listening to him on several occasions, I have confidence that he wants to do right by the neighborhood and won't willing let the property slip into disrepair.

The precedent issue is tougher. You just can't predict what will happen in the future.

In the end I support it (fingers crossed).

Were concerns of precedent raised when these went forward (and received) their exceptions?

a) Service garage at Main & 6th 1.5 years ago
b) Service garage repair shop at Main & 4th 1 year ago

QuoteThat's what the main issue is: precedent. Makes it easier for other car related businesses to open up....some that may be not as desriable, nice, or well-maintained.

This argument has no real leg to stand on....its baloney.  No precedent will be set, due to the nature of it being a "permissible use by exception" as the code states.  Opening something not mentioned in the code as a use or a use permissible by exception, under the CCG-S zoning would be setting a precedent.  

In other words, I can't open an Ford dealership under the CCG-S zoning.....period.  I can't open a peek-a-boo lounge under the CCG-S zoning......period.  I can't open a steel mill under the CCG-S zoning.....period.  Again, setting a "precedent" would be somehow finding a way to get a use allowed (like the couple mentioned above) that isn't already listed as a permissible use or permissible use by exception of the CCG-S zoning status.

Anyway, if the precedent angle is going to used as a reason for denial, its time for the City of Jacksonville to throw out the overlay and completely rewrite it to only include the actual uses the city wants to see under the zoning regulation.

Quote- Money issues, etc. I'd be very interesting in seeing an estimate on how much these upgrades and changes would cost. And if the owner has the means to maintain them once finished.

This should not be a factor in a zoning matter.  Personally, my view is, if the business fails, we'll at least end up with another renovated property.  If its successful, then that's a great thing for the entire business corridor.  What would suck, is somebody willing to open a business with his own money on Main Street lose his shirt and the property sits vacant for another decade.  Nobody wins in that case.

^Totally agree.  Whether or not he has a good business model really shouldn't be the issue here.

^ Agreed.

Lake,

You talk to some of the SPAR board semi-regularly, have you given them your opinion of the precedent issue?

Do you know why they think it will make a difference in precedent?

I mean, your a smart guy and know all about these issues, they have smart people that are familar with these issues as well......why 2 different opinions on if precedent will be affected?

^ One is knee jerk, the other one isnt.

fsu813, everyone I've discussed this issue with knows my position.  As the former SAMBA Vice President I'm always a proponent of new market rate projects coming into the neighborhood.  Since learning the project's details and meeting the owner at a few SAMBA meetings, I think it would be better for that area than the current site conditions.

On the flip side, I do think it hurts the corridor's potential if we fight and keep viable legal businesses from opening because a few people don't want it.  Main Street could easily gain a reputation as a place where its not worth trying to open up a business because of the added trouble.

QuoteDo you know why they think it will make a difference in precedent?

I mean, your a smart guy and know all about these issues, they have smart people that are familar with these issues as well......why 2 different opinions on if precedent will be affected?

As Dan B stated, its a knee jerk reaction based on bad upfront information about the project and the owner.  This happens when poor communication between parties is rampant.  However, I'd add ignorance on understanding zoning, as well.  You can be smart and mean well and still not understand or grasp something outside of your field.  I can tell you how to put a house together and navigate the zoning code but I have no idea of what Lunican does to keep this site up and running on a regular basis.  Claiming allowing a car wash to open in a car wash facility (that's zoned for it) as setting precedent would be like me telling Lunican what he should or should not be doing with this website's development.

Good explanation, thanks Lake.

I hope both parties have/can openly communicate before the hearing.

I would feel better about the car wash if the entrance was on Main Street.  West 4th Street in front of the car wash is one of only a couple of remaining brick streets in Springfield.  Ingress and egress from Main Street would keep traffic off of our endangered brick street.  The location, off Main on the same block as some of our oldest houses (late 1800s), and on a brick street, is my issue, not the car wash.

I'd rather see a car wash somewhere else, but if the access was from Main instead of West 4th, I'd feel better about it.

I'm ready for another pawn shop on Main street.

The sad truth is that in today's economic conditions, Pawn shops are struggling.  Springfield should be very glad it has a few left (without them, Main Street would have been all but barren for years) and that someone is willing to open a nice car wash on Main Street.

As to that remaining brick street, it is destined to go away anyway. Since I've been in Springfield, it has lost about 30 to 40% more brick as repairs are made.  In one case I was involved with, they dug the street up, made the connections and nicely repaired the brick.  Then came back and paved over the repair.

To be honest, save an all but lost brick street or save the commercial corridor?  With a successful commercial district, perhaps someday we can get new brick streets.

I don't live in Springfield so I have no position.  My comments come as a neutral observer.

I do question how the City led this investor along without telling him he had another hoop to jump through.  According to his letter, he was given a "zoning exception", "Certificate of Appropriateness" (Which, as I recall, actually applies to concurrency, not zoning.  If correct, the name is misleading to the "amateur" developer and it should be renamed as a "Certificate of Concurrency".), and building permits.  The zoning exception and building permits would appear to confer official approval by the City of permission to  build and operate a car wash.  If so, it appears the City may be the villain here if they were inconsistent in their position over time.

I would think to get the zoning exception, if properly done, he would have had to post the "orange" hearing signs and notified surrounding property owners.  If so, where was the opposition at that time?  If he didn't do this properly, he may have invalidated the process.

Conversely, if he spent money on renovations without having all his approvals nailed down or completed, that would have been a foolhardy move to make on his part.   Still begs the question how he got valid building permits because my experience is they aren't issued unless Planning & Development have signed off on the zoning being correct for the use.

From either side, I really don't understand how the zoning issue is still unresolved AFTER he has already spent so much money.  Seems someone misstepped somewhere.

As to the Planning Commission, based on my experience, it's a developer friendly group (given that its members frequently make a living off of development), so if this is a tossup, my bet is he gets what he wants even if a thousand people show up to oppose it.

Debbie,

I agree. If it were the "Main Street Car Wash" there would be less concerns.

Strider,

Wow. Never thought i'd hear "it is destined to go away anyway" coming from you about a historic, unique aspect of the neighborhood. That kinda rationale could get you accused of wanting to tear up heritage for the sake of convenience (ring a bell?). I agree with you though, the brick street shouldn't prevent a business from operating at the site, even one that generates more car traffic.

Also, "save a brick street or save Main Street" is a false choice, i think you'd agree.

FSU813, let me rephrase it a bit.  In the scheme of things, using saving a brick street that the city has been pretty successfully making go away through the years to prevent the car wash from opening is pretty lame.

Would I be in favor of redoing Fourth Street as a real brick street?  Yes.  Would I prefer that Fourth Street not be a mismatch of brick and pavement?  Yes.  Do I think the car wash is going to hurt the little brick that remains on that part of 4th street?  No.  Is having the car wash open going to hurt the chances of ever getting fourth street fixed and fixed properly?  No.  Do I think a brick street is more important than even just one more viable business on or close to Main Street?  No.

In some ways, Fourth Street has been a "watch what you wish for" kind of thing.  People have fought with the city through the years to "save the brick street".  The city has fought through the years to just pave it over because "it is too costly to repave with real brick."  Now we have this wash board of a street that looks horrible as it a mismatch of things. It does still prove we once had brick streets but only really serves to slow cars down. Yes, it is nice to have a brick street, but I would let the majority of those who live on the street make the decision to pave it over or let it remain as it is if and when it comes time again to make that choice.  

I cannot wait for the car wash to open! I, like Dan, hope they serve Three layer's coffee that I can sip on while I get may car cleaned three blocks from my house. As for saving historic brick streets, I am all over that....get the city to pull the bricks up, sell them to residents that can incorporate them in their properties and get a paved road. When is the last time anyone who does not live on those streets drove down them? I know I can't, I bottom out due to the GIANT sink holes up and down them. If the city agrees to restore the brick streets that is awesome (no issue on either side), if the city refuses to restore those brick streets then what is the point of keeping non-functional streets? This is not England and we do not need a folly on our "estate" for the amusement of a few. :-)

Well Car Wash or Skin Club..........take your pick! I would opt for the Car Wash! Permitting not with standing, if they have got this far, either the City dropped the ball or SPAR did not realize just what was going on till it was allmost too late! Gee..........with all of the eyeballs around there, makes me wonder why Louise has not shown up and started jumping up and down in someones face!

I don't see what the big deal is...that car wash would be a good thing. although there are homes behind it...its still in a commercial area. I hate to say it, but people assume its going to turn into some drug hot bed, or some "ghetto" hang out. People avoid the real issue when it comes to springfield...i guarantee you that if it was a "Charles & Georges" folks would be singing a different tune. There's always an underlying truth behind all the smoke people blow.   :-\

How long is a letter of exception good for? This project took 12 years to get to the point where the owner felt he was about to have a Grand Opening per his letter Dec 7, 2009. The owners letter claimed he was going to open in 2 days, July 20, 2007 after he received the letter of violations on July 18, 2007. That facility was not and still isn't in any condition to open for business. Why would you spend over $700,000 without having all paperwork and pulling the proper permits? Let's also not forget that this is rented land. He does not own the property. I walked over to the facility to get a look at it. All I saw was an old building and a large cold dog, a white Chow Chow, chained up inside. He had a large bowl of food and large bowl of water, not very clean looking. No heat and no blankets for him to nest in and stay warm that I could see. We have a great hand wash car wash facility on Main and East 5th. Clearly this property has been grandfathered in. This business owner just survived the Main Street construction and has been washing my cars going on 5 years. Why don't we support his business with the same passion? I live in Springfield and I don't think we need another car wash. Any business owner knows they have to have all paperwork complete and a good business plan before investing any money into a business especially a start up like this. What if a retired fireman wanted to build a very nice used car dealer only having high end used vehicles with a nice seating area and free 3 Layer Coffee? What if a retired police officer wanted to build a new pawn shop with a beautiful facade. A great building catering to only nice appliances offering sandwiches from City Kidz and Uptown? When you give an exception to any land use & zoning you walk a slippery slope.

Quote from: Hallway on January 09, 2010, 05:02:02 PM
I walked over to the facility to get a look at it. All I saw was an old building and a large cold dog, a white Chow Chow, chained up inside. He had a large bowl of food and large bowl of water, not very clean looking. No heat and no blankets for him to nest in and stay warm that I could see. 

when was this?

I went over to take a look after being told about this post....the dog is behind a gated area, but it has access to the building. It does have food and water. I don't know if there's blankets or anything for it to lay on inside, and it's not ideal....and not how I would treat a dog. I'll check on it again tomorrow.

Edit: let me also add....that if the dog appeared to be in distress....I have bolt cutters  ;)

chows don't need blankets they wear one a very very thick one, meant for cold weather in China where they are thought to be one of the oldest breeds native to mongolia and siberia where it gets pretty cold.  While it may not be ideal for him, he surely isn't as bad off as he'd be if it were say August on a sunny day.

I have a chow and he's loving this weather!  BTW this is an awesome thread hijack!

True that....but it is below freezing at night and I'm glad that people show concern.

Is it a chain around his neck, in freezing weather that can be a huge problem, it is supposed to get even colder.  I have a couple of blankets that could be thrown to the dog, do you think he/she needs them?

The problem I have with all of this is that talk is cheap. Nothing was done correctly regarding this business until some residents stepped in to help the owner with his design, pesentation etc. That doesn't help me have any confidence that this will be a positive, contributing business for the neighborhood. People question why some of us have concerns and I tell them because I have heard BS and promises from prospective business owners and investors for 9 years. The overwhelming majority of proposed uses have never come close to the owners representation and we the neighbors are left with the fallout. I talked to one neighbor who went with an open mind to talk with Mr. Jones and was told by him that he was just about broke. Again, not doing much for my confidence. People on this forum want us to believe that SPAR is the driving force behind the opposition, while ignoring the fact that the zoning and historic departments both recommended denial of this project which is only allowed by EXCEPTION. If it's such a great use as some would like us to think why did the above depts. recommend denial and why does it need an exception? And no, it wasn't because SPAR asked for it. Many of the people supporting the carwash are non or temporary residents. What happens if it becomes a nuisance to the people who actually live close to the business? No problem for the non or temporary residents as they don't have to live with it 24-7. What happens if it fails but the door has been opened to something even less desirable. Again, no problems for the non or temporary residents but people like me who live two blocks away are fu**ed. If it goes forward and does not become a nuisance or detriment to me I will admit I was wrong but if it goes to sh*t you will see my immature side come out and I will rant I told you so every friggin day on this site.

Beautifully put Springfieldgirl, but you know it is far easier and fits the plan to blame SPAR because city agencies, who have the jurisdiction, make a legit decision basis the current zoning. I also, like you, fear what is ahead.  Do the math,  how many flipping cars can you wash in a week to even start to make a return or repay $700,000, even if you try to recoup over 5 years.  On rented land!!  What if the rentor should not be able to keep the property, we have seen that happen recently in Springfield, what happens then to this huge investment.  Something really does not make sense, but I am going to stay out of it, and whatever happens sobeit.

Quote from: stephendare on January 06, 2010, 06:27:43 PM
good luck with that Lake.  The poster doesnt think that experience in the actual field counts.

this is a problem that many people have...positive discourse and community involvement are important...but in the end, we need to trust the experts.

definition of expert- "ex" is an old hasbeen and "pert" is a drip under pressure!

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2010, 10:02:14 PM

Quote from: stephendare on January 06, 2010, 06:27:43 PM
good luck with that Lake.  The poster doesnt think that experience in the actual field counts.

this is a problem that many people have...positive discourse and community involvement are important...but in the end, we need to trust the experts.

For every expert that says one thing, you can hire another one to say the opposite. Watch a medmal trial for kicks sometime. The insurance company's guy will sit there with a straight face saying the wrong leg they accidentally amputated will grow back and the guy has a 0.00000000001% permanent disability rating. The plaintiffs expert will say the opposite. Anybody with a checkbook can get an 'expert' to say whatever they want.

Common sense ought to win the day. What's wrong with a carwash? Is it really worse than all the pawnshops, payday lenders, used car lots, and fried chicken stands that are there already? There goes the neighborhood!

Common sense says that when zoning prohibits pawnshops, used car lots and other undesirable uses and they are steadily shutting down and leaving the area you don't open the door and start inviting the undesirable uses back in. We don't have any pay day lenders in the Historic District and I don't know why chicken joints would be included along with pawn shops and used car lots anyway. Better watch the Popeyes or KFC bashing Chris or you will be accused of some chicken hating conspiracy, not supporting Springfield businesses and causing their demise. They might feel unwelcome also.
As to the question of what's wrong with a car wash I guess I would ask what's right about one in a 12 block long historic district? What may be appropriate in a suburban area may not be the best fit in a historic area. 

Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 10, 2010, 01:57:31 AM
Common sense says that when zoning prohibits pawnshops, used car lots and other undesirable uses and they are steadily shutting down and leaving the area you don't open the door and start inviting the undesirable uses back in. We don't have any pay day lenders in the Historic District and I don't know why chicken joints would be included along with pawn shops and used car lots anyway. Better watch the Popeyes or KFC bashing Chris or you will be accused of some chicken hating conspiracy, not supporting Springfield businesses and causing their demise. They might feel unwelcome also.
As to the question of what's wrong with a car wash I guess I would ask what's right about one in a 12 block long historic district? What may be appropriate in a suburban area may not be the best fit in a historic area.  

Yeah, but there's kind of a fly in the ointment there. I do agree that businesses have left the area, and I'm sure that has included pawnshops. But there are also more vacant lots and empty storefronts now than there were before.

The streetscaping results are nice, and there have certainly been a couple highly publicized success stories, like that new building with Uptown Market in it, and then 3 Layers. But overall, there are far fewer commercial structures than there were before.

Every time you lose commercial space, the cost barriers to entry are going up for potential new businesses. Once the neighborhood does finally turn around, it's going to take a million dollars to open up that restaurant or whatever instead of $100k, or otherwise it's going to take a developer to build a new commercial building, and who will then charge high rents commensurate with his expected return on investment, which in either case makes it less likely for the area to attract new businesses, and then less likely for them to succeed if they do come in. Every time you lose a commercial space, this issue will get worse.

So at some point, don't you have to ask whether any kind of shop isn't better than an empty building rotting into the ground, or another vacant lot? As long at there's anything at all in there that keeps the space filled and money coming in the door until the neighborhood turns around enough for something more upscale to take its place (which is a natural, but slow, process), then at least it's keeping the building standing, and in the longer-term picture, that actually is a very good thing.

Though the logic may seem a little contrarian, it is actually in everyone's long-term best interests not to run these places off. Everytime one of these little businesses, ghetto or not, closes up shop, there isn't some huge waiting list of people waiting to jump right in and take over the space. It's pretty much just crickets chirping. Most of these original (e.g., pre-1950) commercial spaces that lose the tenant wind up sitting vacant for years, or decades, and many are eventually demolished for one reason or another. This just increases the cost barrier to entry for potential new businesses, and delays the neighborhood's turnaround.

Hmmmm could it be the owners asking outrageous rents for these places? Uhmmm yes, that is a BIG factor in the issue. The rents are just ungodly....at least for a small business upstart. Perhaps we NEED too many vacant buildings so these owners will come back to earth and leanr that less vacant store fronts and more successful businesses=higher rent.

uptowngirl............with the numbers of empty bldg's, right now as in today, rents are only one small part of the vacancy issue! It would be nice to have a high end store of some sort, thats called an "anchor store" in stripmall speak and that doesn't appear to be happening on Main St.  SPAR can plan all that they want but that area does not have the numbers to support any kind of high end store, electronics, food stuff's, even cleaners. The empty stores square area is not large enough to support something big enough unless they bulldozed a whole block and built from scratch............that won't happen! It is more of a matter of some specialty stores anchoring ...........antiques, or specialty glass companies or specialty lighting companies......they need stores that cater to Historical aspects! Those kinds of stores would fit a historical profile but are quite expensive to start up and establish.......rents are only one slice of a business plan!

As I stated in another thread.  Our landlord is working with us on the rent and has greatly discounted it.  He is happy to have the space occupied. 

The other day, Tom had locked up and was putting a few things away, when he heard some noise on the roof.  There was a man up on the roof trying to saw through the AC cage to get to the unit.  He didn't think anyone was there.  Had we not been renting, that would have been gone.

I would think most landlords would be willing to work with prospective tenants.

sheclown...........I agree! Most landlords would rather have something coming in rather than nothing, but not all! All one could do is make the attempt.............worse that could happen is they say no!

QuoteSpringfield girl: Common sense says that when zoning prohibits pawnshops, used car lots and other undesirable uses and they are steadily shutting down and leaving the area you don't open the door and start inviting the undesirable uses back in.

Once again, you are ignoring a fact or two.  The car wash is not among the listed "special or Intensive uses" that are prohibited by the overlay.  It is a higher intensive use that requires an exception,  or to put it more simply, a use that may have negative impacts and therefore, should be reviewed for those impacts and evaluated on an individual basis.

Places like Three Layers, 3rd and Main and Meeks places on Laura all required a PUD to be there. In other words, the zoning had to be changed for those uses to be allowed in the Historic District. By using your and SPAR Council's apparent take on the overlay, these places were undesirable uses as they were not allowed by the overlay and should not have been invited in.  Of course the businesses are not the same, but the impacts that need to be reviewed are the same ones for 3rd and Main as the car wash. 

Common sense says that when applying the overlay, it should be applied evenly and fairly to all, not just randomly interpreted to mean what you want it to mean on this particular day.  The car wash, as has been stated many times, is actually a less intensive use with lower impacts to traffic, noise and trash generation  than 3rd and Main.

QuoteOnce again, you are ignoring a fact or two.  The car wash is not among the listed "special or Intensive uses" that are prohibited by the overlay.  It is a higher intensive use that requires an exception,  or to put it more simply, a use that may have negative impacts and therefore, should be reviewed for those impacts and evaluated on an individual basis.

QuoteCommon sense says that when applying the overlay, it should be applied evenly and fairly to all, not just randomly interpreted to mean what you want it to mean on this particular day.

^Good explanation.  I understand my line of work deals a lot with zoning, but I'm still having a hard time trying to firgure out why people don't get this.  Its written in the zoning overlay and as clear as day.

Quote from: Hallway on January 09, 2010, 05:02:02 PM
How long is a letter of exception good for? This project took 12 years to get to the point where the owner felt he was about to have a Grand Opening per his letter Dec 7, 2009.

There's a little more to the story.  When the owner came to November's SAMBA meeting, he mentioned the car wash as being something he planned to run after he retired from teaching.  Anyway, this really has nothing to do with the act of getting a zoning exception.

QuoteThe owners letter claimed he was going to open in 2 days, July 20, 2007 after he received the letter of violations on July 18, 2007. That facility was not and still isn't in any condition to open for business. Why would you spend over $700,000 without having all paperwork and pulling the proper permits? Let's also not forget that this is rented land. He does not own the property.

This letter that was included in this article should answer the questions you have raised:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/752707822_Y3vH7-600x10000.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/752707598_LSMzn-600x10000.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/752707690_hWAjF-600x10000.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/752707748_WdBnG-600x10000.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/752707900_qGAJF-600x10000.jpg)

QuoteWe have a great hand wash car wash facility on Main and East 5th. Clearly this property has been grandfathered in. This business owner just survived the Main Street construction and has been washing my cars going on 5 years. Why don't we support his business with the same passion? I live in Springfield and I don't think we need another car wash.

Its really not any of our business to say if the market can or can not support this establishment.  If it can't, it will close and Springfield will benefit from an upgraded property.  Btw, none of this has anything to do with getting a zoning exception or not.  It's a curve ball issue that should be immediately tossed aside.

QuoteAny business owner knows they have to have all paperwork complete and a good business plan before investing any money into a business especially a start up like this.

Please re-read the letter above.

QuoteWhat if a retired fireman wanted to build a very nice used car dealer only having high end used vehicles with a nice seating area and free 3 Layer Coffee? What if a retired police officer wanted to build a new pawn shop with a beautiful facade.

They could not because neither of these uses are "permissible" or "permissible by exception" under the CCG-S zoning designation.  In other words, an apples and oranges comparison when discussion this particular use, which happens to be an allowed use by exception.

QuoteA great building catering to only nice appliances offering sandwiches from City Kidz and Uptown? When you give an exception to any land use & zoning you walk a slippery slope.

Don't know what would be wrong with a Best Buy or HHGregg opening in the Urban Core but okay.  Anyway, its good this case does not walk a slippery slope because its an allowed use by exception.  Now when someone proposes and gets the right to open a whore house in CCG-S zoning, that will be opening a slippery slope and setting precedent.  A car wash??  not really.

lake............this just squashes the heck out of the SPAR resentment displayed here! I for one, not living in Springfield but having an interest in what take place in what I consider my world, say ......Charge! Let the community decide if this is a viable business!

Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 09, 2010, 09:11:08 PM
The problem I have with all of this is that talk is cheap. Nothing was done correctly regarding this business until some residents stepped in to help the owner with his design, presentation etc. That doesn't help me have any confidence that this will be a positive, contributing business for the neighborhood.

Do you really believe every Joe Blow understands the correct process to open a business in a historic district when there is no easy road map available to follow?  Speaking from personal experience, I went through some of the same issues early on with my 6th & Main project.  From talking to the owners of Three Layers and Baker Klein, they went through some of these issues as well.  So, if there are residents out there willing to help an owner navigate their way through the maze, this should be considered a great thing.  I hope in the future, both SPAR and SAMBA grow to be better conduits for issues like this instead of being perceived by many as road blocks.

QuotePeople question why some of us have concerns and I tell them because I have heard BS and promises from prospective business owners and investors for 9 years. The overwhelming majority of proposed uses have never come close to the owners representation and we the neighbors are left with the fallout. I talked to one neighbor who went with an open mind to talk with Mr. Jones and was told by him that he was just about broke. Again, not doing much for my confidence.

I can't argue these accounts and I won't try to pump up your confidence.  However, I will say that none of this has much to do with the central zoning issue at hand.

QuotePeople on this forum want us to believe that SPAR is the driving force behind the opposition, while ignoring the fact that the zoning and historic departments both recommended denial of this project which is only allowed by EXCEPTION.

I really hate to bring SPAR into this but everone knows their opinion on projects proposed in the historic district carries some weight with the zoning and historic departments.  If the community, as a whole, approved of a car wash opening, the guy would already be in business.  

QuoteIf it's such a great use as some would like us to think why did the above depts. recommend denial and why does it need an exception?

See my response above for your first statement.  For the second, Strider did a pretty good job explaining "exceptions" and "PUDs".  Without them, there would no no 3rd & Main, Meeks office or Three Layers (all places the community is proud to have and rightfully so).

QuoteAnd no, it wasn't because SPAR asked for it. Many of the people supporting the carwash are non or temporary residents. What happens if it becomes a nuisance to the people who actually live close to the business? No problem for the non or temporary residents as they don't have to live with it 24-7.

You're explanation is why things like car washes and restaurants with outdoor dining or "3rd & Mains" need exceptions and rezonings under the overlay.  Its gives us a chance to evaluate these types of projects individually on their own merit and unique circumstances.

QuoteWhat happens if it fails but the door has been opened to something even less desirable. Again, no problems for the non or temporary residents but people like me who live two blocks away are fu**ed. If it goes forward and does not become a nuisance or detriment to me I will admit I was wrong but if it goes to sh*t you will see my immature side come out and I will rant I told you so every friggin day on this site.

Don't know about the others, but I'll still sleep good at night either way.  I just want to kill all bad information and interpretations so that projects like this can be properly evaluated for the overall good of the community.

Lake, any more info regarding my post as to how this could proceed to this point without the zoning being cleared up?  Either the city or the owner failed to follow a procedure it would appear.  Who messed up?

stjr, it has to start with the city.  A better way of getting the road map out has to be established and made available to the common man.  As we can see in this debate, people who have decent understanding of the process still have no clue of how zoning works.  Add a guy like Mr. Jones, and he has less of a clue.  So, in my opinion, everything starts and ends with the city.  Once that information is properly displayed and easy to find, its up to the owner to navigate his way through the process. As for SPAR and SAMBA, they should be readily available and accessible to work with those owners who may need help.  This would help assure that all new development coming into the district is vetted and designed to play a positive role in the revitalization process.

The most unbelievable part of this thread is that in a city of 1.5 Million people, we are arguing the merits of a damn car wash! Other cities are REALLY worried about landing blue chip corporations, downtown redevelopment, mass transit, school improvement etc.. We must look some ominous competition.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, that is pretty crazy.  You should have seen my wife's face when she asked what I was responding to while typing the posts above.

I just read Silas Jones' letter to COJ's Planning Dept for the first time.

The first thing that strikes me is that SPAR got caught red-handed in yet another one of their infamous pre-orchestrated code enforcement call-in campaigns. So to those of you on here who argued with me ad nauseum that this just never happens, and it's all just some 'conspiracy theory' from Joe, Gloria, Me, or Stephen, well, well, well...I think we can put that one to bed now, can't we.

The other thing that jumps out about all of this is the question of exactly how much more of this same crap are people going to tolerate? You've got this whole chunk of the city held hostage by 8 or 10 people, running a group that is totally out of touch with most of the people they claim to represent. This guy is just trying to open a car wash, not a brothel. His actual neighbors are all in favor of the project. But out of nowhere, SPAR starts screaming about "convenience store" and whatnot, when he makes it clear all he was going to have was car care supplies and a vending machine. Like. Every. Other. Car. Wash. On. The. Planet.

Lastly, I'm very surprised by how far along he really is. He already has a business license, and was already granted the exception and permits for the project in 1995. Then the new overlay comes along 6 years after the fact, and people want to act like this is some terrible thing that he should be allowed to keep the project that he already got approval for in 1995, and for which he has held a valid business license for the last 15 years. Moreover, this thing was already a carwash before he bought it, since the 1960’s.

Lewis v. City of Atlantic Beach, 467 So. 2d 751 (Fla. 1st DCA 1985) set the current standard for the continuation of a nonconforming use, or is normally called we call “grandfathering,” and found "nonconforming uses may be eliminated by attrition (amortization), abandonment, and acts of God as speedily as is consistent with proper safeguards and the rights of those persons affected." Then 3M National Advertising Company v. City of Tampa Code Enforcement Board, 587 So. 2d 640 (Fla. 2d DCA 1991) together with Walker v. State, Department of Transportation, 366 So. 2d 96 (Fla. 1st DCA 1979), recognize the loss of the right to operate a nonconforming use due to government action as representing a compensable taking.

FL AGO advisory opinion AGO 97-65 states “Abandonment occurs when the owner intentionally and voluntarily relinquishes such nonconforming use of the property. Temporary cessation of a nonconforming use, however, does not necessarily constitute abandonment of a nonconforming use. Moreover, neither attrition nor abandonment occurs when a nonconforming use is interrupted or discontinued involuntarily by government action.” I don’t think there is any question that the owner has not abandoned the property. His actions have been wholly consistent with utilizing the property as a carwash, which it had been since the 1960s. He applied for and received a zoning exception allowing this use, applied for and received construction permits, conducted extensive renovations, and then continually applied for and received business licenses for that use.

I doubt there has been any attrition either, the property was under construction for some time, and once it was finished COJ went and changed the code so that the zoning they previously granted was no longer allowable unless they granted an additional exception. The SOL on this hasn’t run, nor is the issue even ripe, until he exhausts all administrative remedies, which will not have occurred until and if COJ rejects his application for an exception, and he appeals it to the city council, where it is again denied.

So I guess where I’m going with this is, his renovation of an already-existing carwash was approved and permitted by COJ in 1995. COJ already issued him a zoning exception categorically approving the property’s use as a carwash, after which he invested a substantial sum money of into that use, which they had fully approved when he applied. Now they want to come along later, after approving the zoning, permitting the half a million dollars’ worth of renovations he then conducted, and changed the overlay after the fact such that the property requires an additional exception that they now appear to be dicking him around on granting, at SPAR’s behest.

This would certainly be more clear-cut if the carwash had been in continuous operation as a nonconforming use the entire time. If that were the case, there wouldn’t be an issue at all. But as it sits, if COJ rejects his application for an exception, then this still may be a compensable taking, and Mr. Jones should consider suing COJ to recover the money he has invested in the property. For chrissakes’, COJ’s Planning and Development office specifically approved his use, and after he was done investing a half million dollars in the place, they changed the code and effectively took it away. And of course, as usual, SPAR thinks this is just hunky-dory. Silas Jones, if you read this forum, go get yourself an eminent domain / land use attorney. You may not get your car wash, but at least you might have a shot at getting your money back.

Chris, you ought to consider setting up shop in Springfield.  Seems like a lot of business around here.

Lake...has anyone discussed the "grandfathered" aspect of this with the city that you know of?

I am not a lawyer by any stretch of the mind, but Mr Jones appears to me to have basis for getting his money back if this is turned down by the COJ! This is something that should have been streamlined and simplified long before now  .........shame on you!

Not one of those five people. named in the letter,  who made calls is or was a member of SPAR, that part is incorrect

Imo, SPAR should be an afterthought when it comes to receiving approval or denial of a zoning exception.  This project should be evaluated based on the ordinance in place, its own merits and what it will or not bring to the table.  In a fair world, SPAR's opinion (or any other that isn't built on the foundation of the actual zoning matter at hand) should not amount to a hill of beans at the end of the day.

Well i'm glad that's not the case. Community input matters. While 1 individual's voice may not be heard, an organization that has a good relationship with the city will be heard. This is even more important when shaping an up & coming area, and again even more so when dealing with historic concerns.

Whether i agree with them or not on this specific situation, i'm glad they have a voice that is sure to be heard, even if it's not the determining factor.

imo.

fsu13, I am afraid  your not quite correct! As you stated "Community input matters" not an Organization that does not represent everyone. Does SPAR represent 100% of Springfield? As you pointed out, last year during the SPAR elections there were alot of people who decided they did not want SPAR to represent them since they did not feel their best interest's were being represented. Not living in Springfield, I admit having no first hand knowledge but the 5 people whom I know, all said basically the same thing............SPAR did not represent them but had their own agenda! As I have pointed out, membership in SPAR is declining and there has to be a reason don't you think? Not pointing fingers, not making accusations but your numbers are falling and what do you do when the only members left are the Board?

no organization can speak for 100% of a neighborhood. using this standard no neighborhood organization would fit the bill. also, i'd like you to tell me how much of a decline there has been, since you seem to have that info. or are you just guessing? don't answer that, it's rhetorical.

I disagree...........in my world, the HOA speaks for 100%! I will agree that most organizations can not do so, but I would have to ask, I know of 5 people who left SPAR! They live in Springfield and the people that they know in Springfield have either not renewed or have allready left! I like playing with numbers and hypotheticals or projections...............based on the numbers that I have to work with, population, projected slopism, I keep coming up with SPAR actually represents 32% of the possiblilities and if that is the case, then SPAR is not even close to representing the  area!

and i'll guess that you represent 22.74% of people that don't live in the area.

and that i'll live to be 86.

based on my calculations, that is.

We'll be on Urban Jacksonville Weekly this morning talking about the proposed car wash if you want to hear more about the project.  Tune in here, http://urbanjacksonvilleweekly.com/ (http://urbanjacksonvilleweekly.com/) at 9:30am.  Thanks.

Quote from: fsu813 on January 10, 2010, 11:34:02 PM
Well i'm glad that's not the case. Community input matters. While 1 individual's voice may not be heard, an organization that has a good relationship with the city will be heard. This is even more important when shaping an up & coming area, and again even more so when dealing with historic concerns.

Whether i agree with them or not on this specific situation, i'm glad they have a voice that is sure to be heard, even if it's not the determining factor.

imo.

I think this could be a part of the problem in this instance.  An organization that represents a minority population of an area should not have ultimate control in final decisions made about the entire neighborhood's businesses and future.  It would really make more sense for SAMBA to assume this role for the commercial sector.  That's something I would like to see happen as SAMBA grows.  If it can, Springfield will greatly benefit.

Quote from: chris farley on January 10, 2010, 10:07:10 PM
Not one of those five people. named in the letter,  who made calls is or was a member of SPAR, that part is incorrect

Let's see, one of those five people worked for SPAR Council for a time and one is her husband, but were never members?  The other is the daughter of a person who was very close to the SPAR Council organization who I know was at least once a member,  and the last one, at the very least, has ties to the ED and I suspect, like so many in the community, was also once a member. This was also about three years ago and so they could have been members then and not now. But, Chris, as you have said they weren't members so that proves that SPAR Council had nothing to do with this, even though SPAR Council admitted they did at the time, I guess we must believe you.

While a small thing, this is typical of the misinformation that gets put out there and why statements like Lake's that SPAR Council should not really have any say in matters like this are made.

"An organization that represents a minority population of an area should not have ultimate control in final decisions made about the entire neighborhood's businesses and future."

- correct me if i'm wrong, but they don't.

as the largest neighborhood organization in the area, they have a large voice.

but they certainly don't have "ultimate control"......you know this. there's is one of the loud opinions heard, not the only.

Quote from: strider on January 11, 2010, 08:59:47 AM

Quote from: chris farley on January 10, 2010, 10:07:10 PM
Not one of those five people. named in the letter,  who made calls is or was a member of SPAR, that part is incorrect

Let's see, one of those five people worked for SPAR Council for a time and one is her husband, but were never members?  The other is the daughter of a person who was very close to the SPAR Council organization who I know was at least once a member,  and the last one, at the very least, has ties to the ED and I suspect, like so many in the community, was also once a member. This was also about three years ago and so they could have been members then and not now. But, Chris, as you have said they weren't members so that proves that SPAR Council had nothing to do with this, even though SPAR Council admitted they did at the time, I guess we must believe you.

While a small thing, this is typical of the misinformation that gets put out there and why statements like Lake's that SPAR Council should not really have any say in matters like this are made.

This post shows how out of touch you are.

Yes, im sure at some point all of the people mentioned were involved with SPAR, HOWEVER, at the time of this incident, 4 of the 5 were actually very much NOT involved with SPAR. I cant speak to Amanda, as I just am not sure.

Quote from: jason_contentdg on January 11, 2010, 08:07:59 AM
We'll be on Urban Jacksonville Weekly this morning talking about the proposed car wash if you want to hear more about the project.  Tune in here, http://urbanjacksonvilleweekly.com/ (http://urbanjacksonvilleweekly.com/) at 9:30am.  Thanks.

I'm there!  Do I need to do anything?  I see categories, but I don't see you.

Actually, DAN, you didn't prove I was out of touch, you proved me right. Could have been means just than, not sure.  Thanks for clarifying that you believe that they were not actually members three years ago.  Still, the ties were there.

Quote from: Dan B on January 11, 2010, 09:21:55 AM
This post shows how out of touch you are.

Yes, im sure at some point all of the people mentioned were involved with SPAR, HOWEVER, at the time of this incident, 4 of the 5 were actually very much NOT involved with SPAR. I cant speak to Amanda, as I just am not sure.

Out of touch? Nobody's out of touch. Those people are all connected, as I'll describe below...

Quote from: chris farley on January 10, 2010, 10:07:10 PM
Not one of those five people. named in the letter,  who made calls is or was a member of SPAR, that part is incorrect

Alright. Well Chris, I happen to think you're one of the few on "that side" of this debate who is probably well-intentioned. We may not agree on some of this stuff, but I have never gotten the impression that you're malicious like others. So while I'd normally just make some wise-ass funny response, I will instead actually run through a full explanation of everything that bothers me.

To start with, SPAR has long enlisted the help of the Woman's Club / Springfield Improvement Association to help beef up its pre-orchestrated code-enforcement call-in campaigns (a/k/a/ tortious interference suits waiting to happen) that SPAR has become infamous for.

If you have any doubts, just take a peek at the minutes of just a single recent Woman's club meeting. SPAR, through Claude Moulton, who you'll no doubt recognize as SPAR's current President and member of SPAR's Board of Directors, made the latest presentation pitching the attendees on the perils of what SPAR alleged was a ballooning number of problem properties.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:yse4eGilJXAJ:www.springfieldwomansclub.org/orangeblossom_2009-09.pdf+Sharlene+Dano+SPAR+jacksonville&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

At that time, he also talked the Club members into signing yet another petition against rooming / halfway houses (a pretty clear swipe at J&G, given the timing of her fake assault allegations against him), and asked for help with the call-in campaigns. Specifically, the minutes of the meeting describe the petition and go on to say "he asked for our assistance identifying" new problem properties. Ahem. Now what do you think that means? Time to spy on your neighbors!

But I guess the Woman's Club members have reason to be grateful, as at least they were actually told they were signing a petition and not some bogus "sign-in sheet". But anyway, looking at the audience present at just this one single meeting, you'll note that, coincidentally enough, it included Louise DeSpain's buddy Susan Noonan. That name should be familiar, because she and her husband Frank, who also happens to work together with SPAR's own Doug Vanderlaan at SHADCO, were the first calls in this particular rush of SPAR-induced bogus COJ complaints. And I believe Amanda Searle actually is or was a member of both organizations, so I believe the comment that she is not involved was just error. Additionally, all of these people have been directly involved with SPAR at one time or another.

You'll also note Sharlene Dano's presence, whose name you should also recognize from the Silas Jones ordeal, since she actually double-dipped and called twice in 20 minutes just to rack up an extra complaint. Additionally, all of the above, including Louise DeSpain, get together for "Operation Safe Streets" and are all well familiar with each other.

http://www.coj.net/NR/rdonlyres/e73xv7ncms3vrga6bqofml5ocb3nyv3qfsnxs7vtbsppukqcyxxulzu2ci7cwoo5327ud7trj3fojqg5b3j77bn5bre/OSS+Report+032008.pdf

So this group is all intertwined. The organizations they're involved with are ostensibly serving the public good, but wind up getting sidetracked and involved in one individual's personal crusades. And also bear in mind, these are just the complaints that COJ has names for. God knows how many "anonymous" complaints got called in. I bet for every one with a name attached, there were multiple anonymous ones. That's human nature.

So why does this happen? Where does this come from? Well, there's one particular person who goes on these ridiculous crusades. Why? I don't know. Her longest-running one has to be the one vs. Strider and Sheclown. I mean, that one just gets downright crazy. She tried to have him trespassed for a bogus assault allegation, banned him from public meetings, and to put the icing on this particular layer-cake of dysfunction, she actually had the gall to write Obama a letter where, in between rambling on about various topics and apologizing for the ugly state of the neighborhood (and everyone who says what a great job SPAR's done over the last decade, go ahead and explain why its director is apologizing that he had to look at the place), she makes a point of sliding in several paragraphs that blame Springfield's current problems on them, I $h!t you not.

I'm still debating whether this hilarious letter deserves its own thread. May as well just send in their pictures too, and ask him to get the CIA to "intervene." Her letter goes off on how "certain social services organizations in and near our district" have caused Springfield to suffer an "overflow of homeless and mentally challenged persons," and how SPAR "has worked closely with the City of Jacksonville’s Code Compliance division to enforce municipal code violations in the community that continue to cause blight and deterioration", yada, yada, yada.

I have to take a second to hand it to Strider here...apparently he pissed her off bad enough that Code Enforcement just wasn't doing it anymore, she actually wrote the President of the United States! LMFAO!

So anyway, with these call-ins, the motivation is irrational, and usually based on incorrect information (like when she showed up and accosted the guy with his two adopted kids because she thought it was a halfway house), and it all comes from one place. She needs as many people as possible to participate in these call-ins in order to trigger COJ action, and so these additional people get enlisted in it.

Some of them probably just take her at face-value, some probably just don't know any better, and some do it because SPAR, SHADCO, the WC, Safe Streets, etc., comprise such a large part of their social network that they'll probably just do what they feel pressured to do. Anyway, for kicks, here's her ridiculous letter to Obama for entertainment value;

Quote
Dear President-Elect Obama,

What an exciting time we are in, and what an optimism you and your promises of urban renewal bring to the Springfield National Historic District in Jacksonville, Florida, and areas like ours nationwide.

My name is Louise DeSpain, and I am the Executive Director of the Springfield Preservation and Revitalization (SPAR) Council (www.sparcouncil.org). As indicated, Springfield is a National Historic District, and is located on the northern edge of the City of Jacksonville’s downtown Central Business District.

Like many urban neighborhoods, Springfield began declining in the 1950’s, endured racial conflict in the 1960s, and continued into physical, economic and educational deterioration, with increases in crime, drug usage/addiction, and teen birth/infant mortality rates well into the 1990s.

I believe you have familiarity with our neighborhood, as your Jacksonville campaign headquarters were located in one of our Klutho-designed historic structures at 1830 N. Main Street. Our community may not have been pretty when you visited, but SPAR’s hope is that soon, it will be pretty (but we've done SUCH a good job!), safe and enriching for all its residents.

Through resident commitment, municipal, state and federal programs, and with recent support from our District 7 Councilmember, Dr. Johnny Gaffney, Springfield has made much progress doing all of the “right” things:  ::)  ::)  ::) (yeah, that's why you're apologizing to Obama for even having to look at the place, right?)

- In 1987, a one-mile square area founded in 1869 and containing a significant number of homes and commercial buildings constructed from the 1890s-1920s, was designated the Springfield National Historic District (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Jacksonville,_Florida);

- In 1994, the Springfield area and many of its surrounding neighborhoods were designated a Federal Empowerment Zone;

- In 1995, the State of Florida passed similar legislation designating the area a Florida Enterprise Zone. SPAR now fundraises in three key areas, Residential Safety & Maintenance, Commercial Corridor Revitalization, and Hogan’s Creek Parks Revitalization, through the Enterprise Zone’s Community Contribution Tax Credit program (§220.183 F.S.);

- In 2001, the Springfield Historic District Zoning Overlay was enacted, protecting the community from new infiltration of inappropriate land uses; (Insert Joe and Gloria's picture here)

- Since 2003, the City of Jacksonville has invested more than $20M on streetscape improvement, including new underground utility, sewer and stormwater infrastructure, on our two main commercial corridors, Main Street and 8th Street;

- Between the mid-1990s and the mid-2000s, SHARP grants and façade grants were available to support existing, and attract new, residents and businesses in the area;

- Springfield has been working closely with its primary “economic engines,” UF/Shands Jacksonville, Florida Community College at Jacksonville (FCCJ) and Bethel Baptist.

o UF/Shands is the Northeast Florida region’s indigent-care facility and Level 1 Trauma Center. The University of Florida has its Medical, Nursing, Pharmacy, and Dentistry schools at this location, and has constructed a $150M proton-therapy cancer treatment center on the Historic District’s border. In conjunction with the County and State Boards of Health, the new federal Veterans Administration facility, and our own Darnell Cookman Middle School of the Medical Arts, Springfield is becoming a regional health and wellness cluster; (Wait a second, wasn't she actually opposed to additional VA presence?)

o FCCJ is the region’s community college focused on transitional jobs and career pathways, and has recently been designated a State College that will offer four-year workforce training and bachelor’s degrees;

- The community has attracted a couple of private developers who are affecting positive change â€" SRG Homes & Neighborhoods (srghomes.com) builds historically-appropriate, single- and multi-family infill homes, and utilizes Empowerment and FLEnterprise Zone credits. (on lots that become vacant due to our code-enforcement call-ins, how convenient!) And Cesery Cos. is building the first new building on Main Street â€" a 47,000 square foot mixed-use project â€" in 40 years, that is expected to add 12 full-time jobs to the area;

- SPAR has been in close partnership with the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office (JSO) for the past three years. Springfield hosts a monthly Sheriff’s Advisory Committee (SHADCO) meeting, and SPAR, working with private partners, has funded in excess of $500,000 of community policing over that time period;

- Since 2006, SPAR has worked closely with the City of Jacksonville’s Code Compliance division to enforce municipal code violations in the community that continue to cause blight and deterioration. (Yeah I'll say so, they sure keep COJ's phones ringing off the hook with bogus complaints!) SPAR has a very successful Block Captains program and ,with the support of private partners, funded in excess of $500,000 of litter and trash removal;

- SPAR has expressed its interest in partnering with the City of Jacksonville’s Housing and Neighborhoods department to implement the Neighborhood Stabilization Program, and specifically HERA 2008 §2301(c)(3)(D) and 24 CFR 570.201(d), within the portion of the 32206 ZIP targeted area that is overlapped by the Historic District;  ::)  ::)  ::) Yes, I'd like more power please! Holy crap, if you think condo boards are bad, you better hope THIS doesn't happen...

- The Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA) submitted an operational grant application to the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) to provide a more reliable and frequent trolley service from the residential areas of the community to/from its nearby economic and employment centers;

- SPAR has recently partnered with the Local Initiatives Support Corporation (LISC) to receive board training and a grant to employ a Commercial Corridor coordinator and Americorps assistant. LISC and the International Council of Shopping Centers (ICSC) named Springfield one of the top five emerging urban markets nationwide along with Bedford-Stuyvesant in Brooklyn, and communities in Philadelphia, Detroit and Minneapolis (yes, we're getting compared to bed-stuy, brooklyn, and detroit, but naturally, we've still done SUCH a good job) ;

- Springfield has a 27-acre string of parks that adjoin the Historic District and Jacksonville’s central business district. The park system contains Hogan’s Creek, which flows into the St. Johns River, one of 14 American Heritage Rivers, and contains remnants of a stormwater management systems engineered in 1928. In 2006, Springfield hosted the Jacksonville Symphony Orchestra for an outdoor concert and holds 4th of July “throwback” baseball games and other events on an annual basis; (I never knew SPAR paid for the Symphony Orchestra! Man, who knew! Clearly credit where credit is due...)

- The City of Jacksonville has included a one-block area of this park system in its list of ash clean-up sites, as a result of an EPA lawsuit; (yes, because getting sued by the EPA is always something you want to brag about to the President...)

- SPAR has grown the organizational capacity of the neighborhood, which now has a merchants and business association (SAMBA), an animal rescue group (SACARC), a Mommies Group, a Garden Club, the first Girl Scouts of America troop in 50 years, and more; (WOW, talk about credit-taking! Who knew that SPAR started the Garden Club? Especially since the Garden Club was founded in 1922, and SPAR was founded in 1974. Time-travel is definitely one hell of an accomplishment!)

- Springfield is the home of four excellent youth programs/centers including The Bridge (modeling its programs on the Harlem Children’s Zone), The Sanctuary (the subject of NPR spoken-word-artist Al Letson’s “Summer at Sanctuary” â€" stateofthereunion.com), The Boys’ and Girls’ Club, and the Robert F. Kennedy Community Center (municipal);

- Springfield, and more specifically the Klutho Building at 1830 N. Main St., is the home of Operation New Hope, which created the nationally-recognized Ready4Work program for ex-offenders; and, (so wait a second...apparently we don't mind convicted felons running around, but those awful recovering alcoholics and community service orgs that I just don't like, are responsible for ALL the problems around here!)

- Is adjacent to, and has close relationships with, nearby successful urban Jacksonville CDCs, including Ron Pauline’s MetroNorth CDC (metronorthcdc.org) and Paul Tutwiler’s Northwest Jacksonville CDC (northwestjaxcdc.org). (I wonder if they would agree as to how close their relationship is?)

As you can see, SPAR, in partnership with the public and private organizations at the local, state and national levels, has taken a very comprehensive approach to revitalization, because we know we must provide an environment where pride and economic success can be achieved by all of our residents (Yup, that's why we call in bogus complaints and oppose zoning variances when new businesses want to open up in our neighborhood!). Despite our progress, we also face many hurdles ahead: (like we might finally be forced to hold elections!)

- Underfunded Community Development Block Grant (CDBG) needs in Springfield; our neighborhood’s “gateway” is blighted by a 1960s hotel that makes our community look more like Beirut than an urban National Historic District. This hotel at 901 N. Main St. is privately-owned, and is a Superfund site (FLSFN0407139) for which “an eligible response site (ERS) exclusion decision has been made;” (OK, I gotta agree with her there, the Park View is an eyesore and a half)

- Environmental contamination throughout the 27-acre park system that has been known about, but considered too large/costly a problem to fix, since 1993; Hogan’s Creek contamination flowing into the St. Johns River; un-maintained park infrastructure - deteriorated or destroyed stormwater system results in regular flooding and sewer overflows in the community;

- FDOT rejected Springfield’s trolley grant. The JTA has been exploring streetcar, a transit option that is proven to result in economic development, but anticipates transportation funding will be directed toward suburban road development;

- In today’s banking climate, the re-development of Springfield’s commercial corridors is more severely handicapped â€" by lack of available credit and developer incentives â€" than it would have otherwise been by what much of the retailing industry considers “undesirable demographics;”

- Lack of municipal funding for CPTED-based crime prevention measures, trash and litter control, public space maintenance and youth programming in the urban core neighborhoods â€" Jacksonville has been unable to identify adequate funding for programs mandated by ordinance (Zero Tolerance on Litter), nor can our private partners sustain their investment in municipal services in today’s economy; (how much trash could you pick up in all that time you spend feuding with your own neighbors)

- The high concentration of social service organizations in and near our District does not adequately serve a city of Jacksonville’s size, resulting in an overflow of under-served homeless and mentally-challenged persons into the community; and (yes, please refer to those photos of Joe and Gloria included for the CIA's convenience)

- Springfield’s greatest hurdle is the speed at which government, at any level, operates. (Yup, as stated in multiple e-mails to every city official imaginable, we just can't tear these damned historic houses down fast enough!)

Again, Mr. Obama, we are buoyed by your attention to the plight of the urban community and its residents and proponents. I am aware you recently held a “summit” in the capital with 2,000 community organizers â€" I look forward to hearing how their input, as well as that from Adolfo Carrion of the Office of Urban Policy and Melody Barnes of the Domestic Policy Council, will benefit communities nationwide like the Springfield Historic District. (wow, 2,000 different community orgs and SPAR wasn't even invited? But we're doing SUCH a good job...)

Springfield’s location makes it an optimal solution to Jacksonville’s economic and environmental sprawl, and the community supports the Obama-Biden Plan, and its focus on cities. We welcome you back to Springfield anytime you are in Northeast Florida. (nice to know SPAR declares the Springfield community are all Obama-Biden supporters)

Best regards,

Louise DeSpain, Executive Director
Springfield Preservation and Revitalization (SPAR) Council

Quote from: strider on January 11, 2010, 09:33:14 AM
Actually, DAN, you didn't prove I was out of touch, you proved me right. Could have been means just than, not sure.  Thanks for clarifying that you believe that they were not actually members three years ago.  Still, the ties were there.

Joe, you also were "involved with SPAR". It proves nothing other than people get involved with organizations, and then move on.

Susan and Frank were the main opponents, and suspect they asked thier friends to call the car wash in with them. They both were very involved in the Womans Club at that time. And speaking from personal experience, The Womans Club was not on great terms with SPAR when this all went down.

think i'll leave the asylum for the inmates to run for a time.

all the smart people sit back and read all the non-sense, and don't respond but when the BS level hits critical mass. think i'll be smart for a while.

perhaps undisputed and reason-free, their propaganda campaign can really get going now.

Quote from: Dan B on January 11, 2010, 09:54:32 AM

Quote from: strider on January 11, 2010, 09:33:14 AM
Actually, DAN, you didn't prove I was out of touch, you proved me right. Could have been means just than, not sure.  Thanks for clarifying that you believe that they were not actually members three years ago.  Still, the ties were there.

Joe, you also were "involved with SPAR". It proves nothing other than people get involved with organizations, and then move on.

Susan and Frank were the main opponents, and suspect they asked thier friends to call the car wash in with them. They both were very involved in the Womans Club at that time. And speaking from personal experience, The Womans Club was not on great terms with SPAR when this all went down.

It's still going on, and apparently has been going on for 3 years, judging by the dates in Silas Jones' letter.

Quote from: fsu813 on January 11, 2010, 10:01:07 AM
think i'll leave the asylum for the inmates to run for a time.

all the smart people sit back and read all the non-sense, and don't respond but when the BS level hits critical mass. think i'll be smart for a while.

perhaps undisputed and reason-free, their propaganda campaign can really get going now.

Yes, clearly, 'propaganda'.

So I take it then, that all these interconnected people just out of the blue decided to call COJ all on their own, and that all these calls occurred within an hour of each other is just purely random coincidence?

You  know, never mind. Its clear that Joe, Gloria, Chris, and CS have a better handle on Springfield than I do. I mean, hell, I have only lived here for 7 years, and have worked with just about every organization here at one point or another, but hey, what the hell to do I know.

Quote from: fsu813 on January 11, 2010, 09:19:57 AM
"An organization that represents a minority population of an area should not have ultimate control in final decisions made about the entire neighborhood's businesses and future."

- correct me if i'm wrong, but they don't.

as the largest neighborhood organization in the area, they have a large voice.

but they certainly don't have "ultimate control"......you know this. there's is one of the loud opinions heard, not the only.

Not that I have the time right now to really respond to this, but I don't think you really want me to jump into this and open the can of worms that leads me to this conclusion.  Its probably best to talk about in person.

Quote from: Dan B on January 11, 2010, 10:35:44 AM
You  know, never mind. Its clear that Joe, Gloria, Chris, and CS have a better handle on Springfield than I do. I mean, hell, I have only lived here for 7 years, and have worked with just about every organization here at one point or another, but hey, what the hell to do know.

So Dan, I have buried our past spats, and will say I appreciate your contributions to the discussion. With that said, and without trying to start any new feud, I just have to ask you then, what exactly do you think is happening, when these things go down?

What do you think would cause a bunch of different people to call in a pile of COJ complaints on the same property all within an hour of each other? Of course, FSU says I'm just running around with my tinfoil hat on on babbling conspiracy theories.

But, honestly, doesn't this type of thing just not pass your smell test? It's so obvious what's going on...

Im done Chris. I am not a water holder for anyone but myself. If there is an action I took while serving as a member of the SPAR board, please feel free to bring it up. Otherwise, continue to melt down among yourselves. My continued involvement in these muck-fests is adding nothing.

fsu381...........not sure how you come up with your figures of 22% but if you say so..........proves even more that 22% representation is not even close to be considered a mandate or a majority! So I have to ask ......what about the remaining 78% by your figures and 68% by my figures? After reading the letter that Ms Louise sent to the President of the United States no less, I think I would be pushing for a physc evaluation! Does she display signs of dementia or are you even aware of what those signs could be? My mother in law is in an assisted living Facility and she suffers from that affliction which is why she is in there.

I'm not a fan of everything SPAR does (although I do believe the organization can become a stronger asset for the community) but I do think its unfair to single out Louise.  I'm not a member, but from my understanding doesn't the board make all official decisions?

Other than that, we're starting to get off track.  Let's keep this thread focused on the car wash.

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 11, 2010, 11:34:29 AM
fsu381...........not sure how you come up with your figures of 22% but if you say so..........proves even more that 22% representation is not even close to be considered a mandate or a mojority! So I have to ask ......what about the remaining 78% by your figures and 68% by my figures? After reading the letter that Ms Louise sent to the President of the United States no less, I think I would be pushing for a physc evaluation! Does she display signs of dementia or are you even aware of what those signs could be? My mother in law is in an assisted living Facility and she suffers from that affliction which is why she is in there.

I think SPAR is highly dysfunctional, but I doubt any of them have dementia.

There's just NO WAY they'd be able to remember such a long enemies list...

Quote from: thelakelander on January 11, 2010, 11:44:37 AM
I'm not a fan of everything SPAR does (although I do believe the organization can become a stronger asset for the community) but I do think its unfair to single out Louise.  I'm not a member, but from my understanding doesn't the board make all official decisions?

Other than that, we're starting to get off track.  Let's keep this thread focused on the car wash.

Well in fairness, it really does all tie in together.

Mr. Jones and his car wash unfortunately became a victim of the same pre-orchestrated group call-in campaigns that rely on a large volume of bogus complaints to force COJ to take action against anything and anyone that a certain small group of people doesn't like.

The point I'm making is how out of touch with reality the group behind this behavior really are. If they don't feel like having a car wash, then by god there won't be a car wash, and the other 80% of the neighborhood that they don't represent can just go to hell. It's ridiculous, and these petty wars waged by the very same people charged with encouraging revitalization, are actually inhibiting the area's economic rebirth.

Before any application for a zoning exception can be considered impartially, as is Mr. Jones' right, this behavior absolutely needs to stop. However, it's still going on. To him, and to other forum members here, and to probably many we don't know about. And apparently to some random guy with 2 foster kids, LOL.

Anyway, I just find this behavior, demonstrated and documented here time and time again, to be absolutely reprehensible, and Silas Jones was one in a long line of victims. If someone had a problem with his car wash, then they should honor Mr. Jones' right to due process, and appear to state their opinion at the planning meeting, so that he can respond accordingly. But instead, they sneak around behind the scenes, filing bogus complaints en masse, claiming to represent people they don't represent, and privately exerting influence to affect the outcome of the zoning decision.

Unlike if the situation were properly handled through regular channels, Mr. Jones then has no means by which he is able to respond to such behavior, which of course is why it's effective, and is why they engage in it. There is a larger problem than just the car wash here, that also happens to be affecting the car wash.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 11, 2010, 10:42:08 AM

So Dan, I have buried our past spats, and will say I appreciate your contributions to the discussion. With that said..

I had to laugh when I read this, reminded me of a funny bit from Curb Your Enthusiasm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhyGlGgXMxY

I am still confused! Mr Jones got an exemption several years ago, now that exemption is not any good because SPAR now takes exception to the exemption which the COJ had allready granted..........something smells badly!

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 11, 2010, 03:17:14 PM
I am still confused! Mr Jones got an exemption several years ago, now that exemption is not any good because SPAR now takes exception to the exemption which the COJ had allready granted..........something smells badly!

I try to take you seriously, really I do, but when you post stuff like this, it makes me wonder why you are so wound up, and even posting on this topic.

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 11, 2010, 03:17:14 PM
I am still confused! Mr Jones got an exemption several years ago, now that exemption is not any good because SPAR now takes exception to the exemption which the COJ had allready granted..........something smells badly!

No SPAR conspiracy. It's plainly stated in the law.

QuoteSec. 656.136.  Procedures for decisions on exceptions, variances, waivers, and appeals.
(c)   A zoning exception, variance or waiver shall be transferable and run with the land, except as hereinafter specifically provided, unless the decision-making body specifically makes the exception personal to the applicant or another individual, and the use shall be commenced within a period of one year from the effective date of the final order granting it. When the use requires licensure or other approvals by the State or any other governmental entity, such as a liquor license approval or approval for day care facilities, the zoning exception, variance or waiver granted in connection with such use shall not be transferable and shall be granted to the applicant or the State license holder.
(d)   The time within which the zoning exception, variance or waiver shall be commenced may be extended by the decision-making body for a period of time longer than one year. Failure to exercise the zoning exception, variance or waiver by commencement of the use or action approved within one year or such longer time as adopted by the decision-making body, as the case may be, shall render the exception, variance or waiver invalid and all rights arising thereunder shall terminate. Transfer of the property by the applicant where the zoning exception, variance or waiver is made nontransferable, shall terminate the exception, variance or waiver.

All of this is explained in the letter in the original article.

As to the 2007 'we hate the car wash SPAR conspiracy'. At the time I was a SPAR member and I can tell that I never received a phone call, email, telepathic emission, smoke signal or even organized flatulence that informed me as a SPAR member that I should be contacting ANYONE about the car wash. At the time there were far more than 5 SPAR members, so if only 5 called in then it was a pretty crappily executed conspiracy.

Susan Noonan knows Louise DeSpain who is a member of the SIAWC who had members Pat LaMountain and Sharlene Dano who was once in the realty game as is Amanda Searle who now is a major advocate for Operation New Hope who encourages job training and placement for ex-convicts who may or may not have actually stolen from Historic Springfield residents who frequent Fusion which is run by a charming Bosnian named Miro who owns a few kick-ass classic cars that may or may not have been used in Batman movies. So what I'm saying is that it is all Christian Bale's fault. To create the tenuous conclusions that you do by the relationships you tie together in a very close-knit community is absurd. Most of us know each other, I know hundreds of people in this small community but I don't presume to act, vote or think as they do. All lawyers, court reporters, bailiffs, judges and criminals think and act the same as each other, right? NO??? Well they're all connected!

So the conspiracy conversation is more of the same shite, different day. It really does NOT apply to every discussion about Springfield. But please do continue to carry on with the ubiquitous tripe.

BTW, I look forward to the car wash opening.

So all these different people just randomly called in a pile of COJ complaints, all within a half hour of each other, out of nothing but pure coincidence, right?  ::)

Did you ever think they were... GASP* friends?

Quote from: AlexS on January 11, 2010, 03:58:11 PM

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 11, 2010, 03:17:14 PM
I am still confused! Mr Jones got an exemption several years ago, now that exemption is not any good because SPAR now takes exception to the exemption which the COJ had allready granted..........something smells badly!

No SPAR conspiracy. It's plainly stated in the law.

QuoteSec. 656.136.  Procedures for decisions on exceptions, variances, waivers, and appeals.
(c)   A zoning exception, variance or waiver shall be transferable and run with the land, except as hereinafter specifically provided, unless the decision-making body specifically makes the exception personal to the applicant or another individual, and the use shall be commenced within a period of one year from the effective date of the final order granting it. When the use requires licensure or other approvals by the State or any other governmental entity, such as a liquor license approval or approval for day care facilities, the zoning exception, variance or waiver granted in connection with such use shall not be transferable and shall be granted to the applicant or the State license holder.
(d)   The time within which the zoning exception, variance or waiver shall be commenced may be extended by the decision-making body for a period of time longer than one year. Failure to exercise the zoning exception, variance or waiver by commencement of the use or action approved within one year or such longer time as adopted by the decision-making body, as the case may be, shall render the exception, variance or waiver invalid and all rights arising thereunder shall terminate. Transfer of the property by the applicant where the zoning exception, variance or waiver is made nontransferable, shall terminate the exception, variance or waiver.

To be fair here, there are several exceptions to the operation of this type of ordincances, and one covers periods under which the property is undergoing construction intended to enable the property to function according to the use intended by the variance or exception.

But the real issue in figuring this out is that we have no idea what the terms of Silas Jones' original 1995 exception and certificate of appropriateness were. It could have provided that the exception ran with the property, regardless of continous use, or not. It could have given him a period to get up and running, or not. It should be public record, but I am not sure if you can access that online.

We also don't know whether he ever renewed the original 1995 exception or COA, or whether the terms of that zoning approval even required him to do so. It could very well be that he has arguments he doesn't know he has. I'd like to see the language of the original 1995 exception and COA.

This morning I took the laundry out of the dryer, I folded everything, but was left with one sock! I never had this happen to me before, and I think I know why.... there are four people in Springfield (names withheld) that have it in for me for no good reason, I have nor my sock have done anything to them! It is so unfair! I know resident #1 called resident #2 who then called residents #3 and #4 who called an innocent resident #5 and told them I had actually broken the rules by having a pair of red socks and that if I could not be removed from the neighborhood, at least my red socks should be. Resident #5 logged a complaint on COJ.net and all of a sudden a code enforcement officer snuck into my laundry room and took one of my red socks. I know this because he left behind a notice for me to remove the remaining red sock before 2/10/10 or face further fines!

Quote from: stephendare on January 11, 2010, 04:23:46 PM

Quote from: Dan B on January 11, 2010, 04:22:17 PM
Did you ever think they were... GASP* friends?

Ah.  so the small little group of friends came to a decision, executed their plans (apparently without even bothering to tell the board members like nverenuf) and made a decision for the whole neighborhood?  Awesome!

I think this is exactly the point.

AS they were the only ones who called, YES.

Quote from: Dan B on January 11, 2010, 04:22:17 PM
Did you ever think they were... GASP* friends?

Ummmm...yeah, I did, since that's been my whole point all along. This little group of people gets together with their ringleader and (whether they be well-intentioned or not), do things that often wind up being shortsighted, not to mention completely contrary to the missions of the organizations they control and/or participate in. These code-enforcement call-ins, and behind-the-scenes meddling with people's zoning applications needs to stop. None of them even live at the carwash! All the neighbors who ACTUALLY live next to the thing in fact SUPPORT it.

So I don't get why anyone would even have an issue with it to begin with, except its actual neighbors, who are in favor of it. But like I said, this little group decides they don't want a carwash, so by god we won't have a carwash. But at least you have acknowledged that they obviously get together and do these group call-ins, FSU still thinks I'm being all 'conspiracy theory' abouit that even though it's plain as day what's going on.

Quote from: stephendare on January 11, 2010, 04:23:46 PM

Quote from: Dan B on January 11, 2010, 04:22:17 PM
Did you ever think they were... GASP* friends?

Ah.  so the small little group of friends came to a decision, executed their plans (apparently without even bothering to tell the board members like nverenuf) and made a decision for the whole neighborhood?  Awesome!

I think this is exactly the point.

Yes, they executed their plan (this dastardly group of friends of Susan & Frank Noonan) to call about something they didn't like. I hate to break it to you but they also didn't contact me on what they made for dinner that night. I'm very upset.

I want my sock back!

Quote from: uptowngirl on January 11, 2010, 04:30:19 PM
This morning I took the laundry out of the dryer, I folded everything, but was left with one sock! I never had this happen to me before, and I think I know why.... there are four people in Springfield (names withheld) that have it in for me for no good reason, I have nor my sock have done anything to them! It is so unfair! I know resident #1 called resident #2 who then called residents #3 and #4 who called an innocent resident #5 and told them I had actually broken the rules by having a pair of red socks and that if I could not be removed from the neighborhood, at least my red socks should be. Resident #5 logged a complaint on COJ.net and all of a sudden a code enforcement officer snuck into my laundry room and took one of my red socks. I know this because he left behind a notice for me to remove the remaining red sock before 2/10/10 or face further fines!

Well, apparently accordingly to SPAR, you should write President Obama about it immediately...ROFL!

Hell no, I don't like red socks and you will do my bidding. Only black socks with red crabs would be acceptable. But straight red, absolutely not, except on Thursdays if there is a game at the stadium, and it is above 64 degrees with a slight easterly breeze at dusk. After dusk you have to take them off and burn them. Or soak them in beer and throw them three rows ahead of you.

Quote from: Dan B on January 11, 2010, 04:33:35 PM

Quote from: stephendare on January 11, 2010, 04:23:46 PM

Quote from: Dan B on January 11, 2010, 04:22:17 PM
Did you ever think they were... GASP* friends?

Ah.  so the small little group of friends came to a decision, executed their plans (apparently without even bothering to tell the board members like nverenuf) and made a decision for the whole neighborhood?  Awesome!

I think this is exactly the point.

AS they were the only ones who called, YES.

Nah, Dan, they were just the only ones who Silas Jones got names for, because they didn't call in anonymously.

Quote from: stephendare on January 11, 2010, 04:38:41 PM
I think the difference Nverenuf is that they call saying that they are representing the neighborhood.

Since they have a title in an organization that has in the past been associated with leadership, this is taken for granted.

But you are claiming that the leadership did something in your name and that you as a board member knew nothing about it?

Well um.  Ok.

Im glad you are all Chill like that.

Well since I didn't have any of those phones tapped at the time such that I know the actual conversation rather than someone's interpretation of it, NO I am not saying an organization spoke on my behalf without me knowing about it. Did they call and say they were members of SPAR, they were SPAR, they've been SPAR, they've seen the SPAR building? WhoTF knows?

I don't make a lot of the assumptions posters on here do. Question everything, trust no one, do not be sheep!

Quote from: uptowngirl on January 11, 2010, 04:35:41 PM
I want my sock back!

I'm telling you, write the President ASAP!

I'm sure he'll get right on AirForce One and come down to help you look for your sock...

Quote from: stephendare on January 11, 2010, 04:47:19 PM
I think you see my point Nverenduf

Obviously I'm being obtuse because in this case I don't. If this 'we don't like the car wash' was an orchestrated campaign then it was a crappy one. It sounds more like what we have described, especially knowing all the players listed, Susan & Frank called their friends and asked for their support. Those people quickly jumped on the request as it was dire (only 2 days before he planned to open).

I don't agree with how SPAR handles many things but they really are not involved in everything bad or good that happens. And presuming they are would make anyone look foolish.

2007

Quote from: nvrenuf on January 11, 2010, 04:56:27 PM
And presuming they are would make anyone look foolish.

More or less foolish than writing the President of the United States complaining about having too many halfway houses in Springfield? Maybe you can put it on a 1-10 scale? I mean, I'm just trying to get a guage on the exact level of foolishness we're talking about here...

Aunt Eulabelle's letter to the Prez...........classic SPAR if there ever was stephendare!

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 11, 2010, 05:14:36 PM
Aunt Eulabelle's letter to the Prez...........classic SPAR if there ever was stephendare!

Oh it SO is...

I reproduced it in its entirety in one of these threads on here today. There are so many topics going at once it's hard to keep them all straight. But boy is that thing ever a SPAR classic...

Here, it's at the bottom of this post:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,7174.msg122972.html#msg122972

After doing some research, I will be supporting a denial of the car wash as well.

I was always borderline, giving the business opprotunity the benefit of the doubt. Didn't feel strongly either way. But, again, doing my homework leads me to believe the chances of it being a negative are more than it being a positive. That's my bottom line.

- Planning & zoning and HPC will almost certainly recommend denial, despite what SPAR's opinion is.

- After receiveing an excemption, the business could open as is....without a COA or any changes, according to HPC.

- Unfortunatley, it's doubtful the owner has the funds to pay for the nice enhancements that Content Design put together.

- The math has been done, an unrealistic number of cars per hour would be needed for it be be profitable. Which again opens the door for what does make money, unfortunately, in the 'hood: alcohol, cigs, singles, etc.

- a number of auto businesses have left the neighborhood in the past decade, doesn't make sense to start letting them back in, especially with one with so many questions.

- The Springfield 2007 action plan & Urban Core Vision Plan 2009 don't support this.

- Though some think a precedent wouldn't be set, I do. These things, as we know, are decided by people. People are often swayed. If Tom comes by 6 months later, has a hearing, and in it says "xyz auto business was just approved six months ago, so why can't mine?" there's a greater chance of it being approved.

- there's another concern of a personal nature that's not appropriate to discuss, as I don't like throwing people under the bus.

This isn't meant to cause debate, just don't want anyone to be surprised when I stand to support denial as well.

*i'll be the handsome guy, for those who don't know me

Hey, as long as you show up at the planning meeting and say your peace in public, and where the property owner will have a proper chance to respond and address whatever concerns you present (you know...this little thing some weirdos like to call "due process"), then you're welcome to have whatever the hell view you feel like. So's everyone else. That's how it's supposed to work.

Long as it's all above-board and the guy gets a fair shake at his hearing, then it doesn't personally matter to me one way or the other whether there's a carwash or not. It's just the unfair fight that bugged me.

Good post Chris.  I feel the same way.

a fair shake is all that can be expected.

Quote from: fsu813 on January 12, 2010, 08:24:56 AM
a fair shake is all that can be expected.

hardly, perhaps the word is hoped for.

Quote- Planning & zoning and HPC will almost certainly recommend denial, despite what SPAR's opinion is.

Planning and Zoning, I won’t go into the why I feel this way, but it seems often like a few involved with the department and the commission side with SPAR Council pretty consistently, so, unless they start evaluating this project on the current merits, you are probably right.  HPC has no business weighing in on this as they do not address zoning issues so any comments on the historically compatibility of the structure itself just muddies the waters without just cause.

Quote- After receiveing an excemption, the business could open as is....without a COA or any changes, according to HPC.

Yep.  And 3rd and main could be turned into section 8 housing tomorrow. Fear is just that, fear and making decisions based on that fear is not always the wise course of action.

Quote- Unfortunatley, it's doubtful the owner has the funds to pay for the nice enhancements that Content Design put together.

If so, perhaps SPAR Façade program could help?  And, as I suspect this man wants a nice place or he would not have worked with Content Design at all, if he doesn’t do everything today, he will as he can tomorrow.

Quote- The math has been done, an unrealistic number of cars per hour would be needed for it be be profitable. Which again opens the door for what does make money, unfortunately, in the 'hood: alcohol, cigs, singles, etc.

And this has been determined by whom?  You? SPAR Council’s marketing person? As to worrying about the sale of alcohol, cigs etc, the very same thing could be said about the Uptown Market. Fear leads to this … well, fear …not fact.

Quote- a number of auto businesses have left the neighborhood in the past decade, doesn't make sense to start letting them back in, especially with one with so many questions.

And yet, this community has indeed let several “back in”.  More to the point, it was the row of used car lots that were of real concern because they use large empty lots up close to the street and smaller buildings back away from the street and so do not conform to what a historic commercial district once looked like.  As we live in the 21st century, and cars aren’t going anywhere soon, various smaller auto uses make sense and are needed.

Quote- The Springfield 2007 action plan & Urban Core Vision Plan 2009 don't support this.

Can you please quote what part of the plan(s) says this? And tell us again who wrote the 2007 Springfield action plan and why it is valid in today’s vastly different economic landscape?

Quote- Though some think a precedent wouldn't be set, I do. These things, as we know, are decided by people. People are often swayed. If Tom comes by 6 months later, has a hearing, and in it says "xyz auto business was just approved six months ago, so why can't mine?" there's a greater chance of it being approved.

Perhaps and perhaps not. Perhaps that plan is a good one and the community needs that new business.  Perhaps that is the purpose of having these hearing so each plan can be evaluated on it’s own merits.

Obviously, I feel the car wash is a valid and useful business to have on Main Street.  I do not feel it hurts the future walkabilty of Main as cars are and will be a huge part of the life in Springfield and business that carter to cars will always be needed here.  To be successful as a commercial district, it is obvious that much of the clientele for Main Street businesses will have to come from outlaying areas and so this car wash is another reason for them to come here.  Now all we need are more businesses in those empty buildings for them to shop at.

Ok, so one thing that keeps being mentioned is "What if this get approved and the owner does not take any of the design consideration into account, and opens up the business as is, without improvements."

It was always under my impression that Silas would have to go for a COA from HPC, but as FSU813 states, and I've spoken today with HPC, that if Silas does not touch the building, then it can look exactly as it does today, and only site improvements would have to get a COA.

After chatting with HPC I spoke with the planning department, and asked if they were able to approve with conditions, relaying some's concern about the owner not making the improvements based on our design.  I was told that they could, if the project is approved on Thursday, approve with the conditions that the site and the building match what is presented on the meeting, binding the owner to make those changes before opening.

As it stands now, the planning department's recommendation is to deny, with this purely based off older submitted information and none of the items that we have prepared for Thursday's meeting.

Thanks Jason. I was under the impression it could be binding as well, but then I was told the same bit of info that FSU813 got. Its good to know that is the case.

good info indeed.

You know, many here are blaming SPAR. However, I look at Jacksonville as a whole and think, our city officials are pretty incompetent. Making this such an issue b/c some organization (SPAR) was against it at first (whether they are still or not, remains to be seen), is laughable. Leave it to COJ and Springfield may end up a parking lot to house vehicles next to the large parking lot of downtown, like an amusement park of parking lots. I think the theory is all the cars can ride on magnificent roads leading out of town, then park in the large parking lots to take the skyway on a 10 minute round trip, only to come back to a parking ticket and a panhandler. Jacksonville is to be the Detroit of the south!

wow, that was pretty cynical wasn't it? lol

Detroit has a more vibrant downtown and they're getting light rail now.  Perhaps we're becoming the Toledo or Flint of the South.

Maybe the Gary of the south?

Would some kind of approval / visual inspection of the project be required before the business opens, to ensure it matches the plans?

Who decides if the result "matches" the plans or not?

Would someone from the city be responsible for this, or would it be more subjective?

If an agreement is made with the condition that it fulfill the plans, these details need to be worked out before hand so no more drama occurs.

The less that's up for interpretation the better.

maybe the car wash would be better accepted if it would collaberate with some of the other local businesses. I was thinking maybe oasis or something. Then perhaps SPAR would be more willing to take it more seriously since it's networking with a local non profit.

Just a thought--> http://noodlesandbeef.livejournal.com/322421.html

Unless Silas can transform himself into Bill Cesery (ain't happening) he's not going to get their approval.  Imo, he would be better off focusing on the actual zoning issue and rallying support from the side of the community that does not have a problem seeing a car wash operate on Main over a vacant lot.  It probably would not hurt to hire an attorney either.  After all, if its denied, he stands to lose his shirt.

The car wash would be on W. 4th, not at all on Main Street.

It's not on the corner lot, as you know.

The Main & 4th corner lot could be developed into something different altogether, as they are seperate.

There are a few other successfull business owners in the neighborhood that had solid plans and history besides Cesery ya know, who certainly aren't muli-millionaires. Thus being a big shot developer is not a requirement.

QuoteThe car wash would be on W. 4th, not at all on Main Street.

It's not on the corner lot, as you know.

Doesn't really matter since its in the commercial district and the property around it is zoned commercial.  Just about every commercial project that is going to use and existing building or go up on an infill site is going to access to the side streets between the alleys.  Especially, if Main is supposed to be a walkable commercial district.  You know, excessive curb cuts and walkability don't really mix.

QuoteThe Main & 4th corner lot could be developed into something different altogether, as they are seperate.

Sure it can, its a different parcel and it will have vehicular access to 4th Street as well.  The other commercial property, west of the car wash but east of the alley, will also have direct access to 4th.  With that said, in your opinion, what is the best use for the car wash site, under the current zoning designation?  Do you think its time to revise the code and change the land use designations to exactly pin point what should be built or allowed within the district?

QuoteThere are a few other successfull business owners in the neighborhood that had solid plans and history besides Cesery ya know, who certainly aren't muli-millionaires. Thus being a big shot developer is not a requirement.

Don't take my bad joke as an attempt to add something to my statement that isn't there.  I'm basically saying gaining their approval for a car wash will not be happening, whether its on 4th, Main, 8th or whatever.

It being on W. 4th may not matter to you, but it does matter to others.

I wouldn't presume to know what the best use is.

I'm also not an expert in zoning. planning, or codes.

From an uninformed point of view, i'd rather not have a list of what's allowed. Having a list of what is not allowed, or only allowed with an exemption is preferable in my opinion.

Which is why this issue is up for review in ther first place, to seek an exemption.

QuoteDetroit has a more vibrant downtown and they're getting light rail now.

And?  Detroit also has somthing like 70,000 abandoned homes and commercial properties.  And if you think we have bad leadership here, Detroit has to take the cake with Kilpatrick- luckily for them he is in jail now.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2010, 12:02:43 PM
Unless Silas can transform himself into Bill Cesery (ain't happening) he's not going to get their approval. 

The implication being?

QuoteIt being on W. 4th may not matter to you, but it does matter to others.

It matters because its a commercially zoned property.  If others are worried about a commercially zoned property being used for a commercial use then shouldn't something be done to ensure that that the site is not used for commercial purposes. As illogical as it sounds (but this entire debate is), perhaps the community should take up a collection to pay for all commercial zoned properties to have direct access to Main so they won't add cars to side streets like 4th, if that's the community's desire? Perhaps the community should buy them all and rezone them residential, who knows?

All I know is long term blight is something no one wants but if a commercial property can't be used for a commercial use then its going to sit vacant, which does no one any good, regardless of your position on this particular project.  Anyway, you posted your reasons for being against so I was just trying to better understand your position because perhaps it includes a vision or idea that I'm not currently aware of. That's all.  However, if you have nothing else to add, that's fine too. No big deal.

Quote from: CityLife on January 12, 2010, 12:58:37 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2010, 12:02:43 PM
Unless Silas can transform himself into Bill Cesery (ain't happening) he's not going to get their approval.  

The implication being?

Man you guys are pretty sensitive.  To help you out how about this.....No way in hell that SPAR will approve of a car wash opening in Springfield.  Is that good enough for you?  ;)

With that said, back to the earlier point, he should seek to rally those that do then waste time appealing to those who's minds are set in stone.

Quote from: cline on January 12, 2010, 12:55:09 PM

QuoteDetroit has a more vibrant downtown and they're getting light rail now.

And?  Detroit also has somthing like 70,000 abandoned homes and commercial properties.  And if you think we have bad leadership here, Detroit has to take the cake with Kilpatrick- luckily for them he is in jail now.

Strip away our consolidation and take a look at our urban core and its progress or lack of progress since 1950.  It suffers from the same problems impacting our Rust Belt brethern.  They just don't have the benefit of consolidation to mask it as well as Jax does.  As for leadership, things aren't peaches and cream here either.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-01-12/story/john_meserve_charged_with_felony_of_practicing_real_estate_without_a_lic

He should slap a "Shell" station sign on it, put a bunch of shim ho's out front, contract with some of the local recreational pharmacist, douse it with urine, scatter some steel reserve singles everywhere and BINGO, no one will bother him.

lol, or just open up a convenience store.  No exception needed, its already zoned for it.

Exactly, i'm guessing the shell doesn't make enough on gas sales to turn on the pumps. they have mastered the human trafficing trade. Singles and scratch offs - recouping that money the only option he's been given. It would serve Springfield right if he bent the neighbood over on this one.  I hear KY stock is taking off as I type.   

stephendare...........I agree! SPAR  says that they represent the general concensus for Springfield and I have seen nothing that supports that misconception. If they did then they would be working with rather than against! The opinions of a select few are masking the opinions of the many! Not really sure just what could be done at this point other than Mr Silas should seek legal representation since he has sunk most of his available money into something that SPAR appears to be totally against.............this is not something that would be operating right on Main Street so I am confused as to why the uproar!

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2010, 01:06:26 PM

Quote from: CityLife on January 12, 2010, 12:58:37 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2010, 12:02:43 PM
Unless Silas can transform himself into Bill Cesery (ain't happening) he's not going to get their approval.  

The implication being?

Man you guys are pretty sensitive.  To help you out how about this.....No way in hell that SPAR will approve of a car wash opening in Springfield.  Is that good enough for you?  ;)

With that said, back to the earlier point, he should seek to rally those that do then waste time appealing to those who's minds are set in stone.

That's all you had to say upfront. However you said that if it was Cesery it would have been approved. I think what you were possibly implying is a bit unhealthy, but no big deal. I agree that the exception should be looked at from a strictly land use/zoning perspective. Ultimately that is all that will matter at the Planning Commission meeting.

As for the attorney thing, if he was going to hire one he should have done it a few months ago.

Quote from: CityLife on January 12, 2010, 01:51:52 PM
That's all you had to say upfront. However you said that if it was Cesery it would have been approved. I think what you were possibly implying is a bit unhealthy, but no big deal.

You don't have to interpret what I have to say.  I've think I've shown in the couple of years I've posted here that I have no problem telling people what I think, regardless of how they may feel on a subject.  I'm not a sugercoater.  With that being mentioned, I made my statement (and have explained it twice now) and if someone does not like it, well that's something they'll have to deal with personally.  

QuoteI agree that the exception should be looked at from a strictly land use/zoning perspective. Ultimately that is all that will matter at the Planning Commission meeting.

As for the attorney thing, if he was going to hire one he should have done it a few months ago

I agree.

So getting back on topic, Jason mentioned this think is still being recommended for denial.  Does anyone know Mr. Jones' next move if he loses?

not sure why this guy would even consider sinking any of his hard earned money into this hellhole called Springfield, everyone agrees the place sucks and there is no way he'd ever make any money with all the rampant crime around anyway.  He'd be way better off packing up his equipment and making at go of it somewhere where the people aren't complete assholes and there is a competent neighborhood association that is welcoming and supportive.  Anyone who even thinks about opening a business in this neighborhood needs to be committed.

"Does anyone know Mr. Jones' next move if he loses?"

- hopefully open up a successfull carwash in an area of town where no exemption is needed, and where Zoning & Planning won't deny him.

It's my understanding he has other property that could be used.

But he was approved once! If I were him I would commence legal procedings and sue the pants  of SPAR and the City of Jacksonville just because of that!

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 12, 2010, 02:23:24 PM
But he was approved once! If I were him I would commence legal procedings and sue the pants  of SPAR and the City of Jacksonville just because of that!

you know I'm not really sure what suing SPARS pants would accomplish, but some lawyer would make a little cash and thats not a bad thing.

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 12, 2010, 02:23:24 PM
But he was approved once! If I were him I would commence legal procedings and sue the pants  of SPAR and the City of Jacksonville just because of that!

So in addition to being a horrible investor do you also double as a land use attorney?

and also, what's the next step for 25 w 4th street?  A building built in the 50's as a car wash and has been operating as a car wash for the better part of the past 50 years.  It's not particularly set up for any other businesses, being essentially a tunnel....

I assume we'd recommend demolition and let the property sit there waiting for whomever wants to come in and give it a try as long as they show us their full design, proof that they have the money readily available, can guarantee that it looks exactly as designed,  and that there does not have to be a exception, so no mixed use, no restaurant with outdoor seating, no multi-family, no live work lofts, and does not add any vehicular traffic to 4th street...

He was approved in the 90s, but did not act in the specified time to maintain the exception (1 year).

Nobody even knew who he was when the overlay was passed.

Quote from: jason_contentdg on January 12, 2010, 02:26:22 PM
and also, what's the next step for 25 w 4th street?  A building built in the 50's as a car wash and has been operating as a car wash for the better part of the past 50 years.  It's not particularly set up for any other businesses, being essentially a tunnel....

I assume we'd recommend demolition and let the property sit there waiting for whomever wants to come in and give it a try as long as they show us their full design, proof that they have the money readily available, can guarantee that it looks exactly as designed,  and that there does not have to be a exception, so no mixed use, no restaurant with outdoor seating, no multi-family, no live work lofts, and does not add any vehicular traffic to 4th street...

Well put.

The future of 25 W 4th is clear.  What you have seen there for the last decade will be what we'll see for the next.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2010, 02:35:47 PM
The future of 25 W 4th is clear.  What you have seen there for the last decade will be what we'll see for the next.

see its true SPRINGFIELD SUCKS!

its not just for the next decade, but the next century, guaranteed.  This area is a curse on this fine city.

The main commerical corridors (Main Street & 8th Street) are worth worrying about far more than what happens to a lot on W. 4th, in my opinion.

If there is energy and concern to be put to use, let's direct it at those. There are a number of businesses (with sound plans & history) looking into these corridors. Finding ways to encourage and help them would be very beneficial. Hopefully SAMBA will taking a leading role in this, looking down the road.

I think if Springfield only looks to businesses with history, we're turning our back on quite a few prospects, new businesses.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2010, 02:35:47 PM
The future of 25 W 4th is clear.  What you have seen there for the last decade will be what we'll see for the next.

Not necessarily true. MetroJacksonville seems to champion the idea of adaptive re-use. Surely the building could be converted to a non-automobile related use. Didn't 9th and Main use to be a gas station? Was there anything at 3rd and Main a few years ago?

Its a bit alarmist to suggest that the lot will remain vacant for 10 years if the exception isn't granted.

This is coming from someone who is torn on the whole issue...

jason_contentdg............I would agree! Not all business's are for a Historical District setting and SPAR should be doing more about attracting such, but thats just my take!

"I have found many times in the past that for all the talk, no one really wants or has a dime to spend on a local business."

- Have you heard of the Main Street enhancement project?

Thousands of dollars worth of materials have been secured for businesses.

SAMBA will be formulating an easy to use/understand "road map" on how to navigate the various hurdles needed to open in our historic district. This should be very helpful.

The UNF Small Business counsel is also available to assist businesses with guidance...they come weekly to the SPAR office to meet.

In fact, they will be presenting at this weeks SAMBA meeting (Jan 14th , 6pm-7:15pm @ City Kidz - corner of 3rd & Main).

Though in need of continued development, there is support for small businesses in the area that is more than chit chat.

Quote from: jason_contentdg on January 12, 2010, 02:49:17 PM
I think if Springfield only looks to businesses with history, we're turning our back on quite a few prospects, new businesses.

No doubt, I know of one prospective business that doesn't have a track record, but a sound plan and is being actively encouraged.

Its nothing personal, strictly based on uses.

Quote from: CityLife on January 12, 2010, 02:51:38 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2010, 02:35:47 PM
The future of 25 W 4th is clear.  What you have seen there for the last decade will be what we'll see for the next.

Not necessarily true. MetroJacksonville seems to champion the idea of adaptive re-use. Surely the building could be converted to a non-automobile related use. Didn't 9th and Main use to be a gas station? Was there anything at 3rd and Main a few years ago?

Its a bit alarmist to suggest that the lot will remain vacant for 10 years if the exception isn't granted.

This is coming from someone who is torn on the whole issue...

I'm just going off what's been expressed here.  Those against have stated commercial traffic on 4th and getting an exception as being a part of the reason they are against.  Considering its a commercially zoned property, those two statements rule out a lot of creativity.  Even going residential would require a rezoning (even 3rd & Main had to be rezoned), which has been frowned against in during this discussion.

I would imagine that the planning commission is only the first step.  My experience tells me that it goes to the LUZ committee after planning commission's recommendation and then to full city council for a vote.  But this may be only for ordinances and not for exceptions. 

If the above case is true, the public has at least three opportunities to be heard...planning commission, LUZ committee and full council.

Anyone have clarity on this?

"Even going residential would require a rezoning (even 3rd & Main had to be rezoned), which has been frowned against in during this discussion."

- i think you'd find little legit opposition to re-zoning certain properties from commerical to residential, unless i'm missing something.

Also, a commerical property isn't THE issue, at least to me. It's what was proposed and how it was/is being done. Besides, selectivity is promoted when an excemption is needed.

If a garden/nursery were to be proposed for that location by someone with the funds and a clear vision for it, i would wager that there would be a lot of support for it. Or an office. Or a bike store. Or a cafe. Etc.

How it's done is just as important as what it is, in my opinion.

So, how has it been done so wrong and why do you think it has been done wrong out of anything other that the owner not knowing all of the loops he had to jump through?

Obviously something has been done to change your way of thinking becasue it's gone from this:

Quote from: fsu813 on January 06, 2010, 05:01:16 PM

Ultimately, after meeting Mr. Jones and listening to him on several occasions, I have confidence that he wants to do right by the neighborhood and won't willing let the property slip into disrepair.

The precedent issue is tougher. You just can't predict what will happen in the future.

In the end I support it (fingers crossed).

To where you are now....

I concur stephendare!

I say give it an opportunity. I'm going to try to speak for it, if I can get out of work early. We have to start somewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8Vs-KMuqjI

Quote from: 02roadking on January 12, 2010, 04:10:00 PM
I say give it an opportunity. I'm going to try to speak for it, if I can get out of work early. We have to start somewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8Vs-KMuqjI

this is springfield damn it - we will start at the very top.  i hear that Macy's is chomping at the bit just waiting for this to fall through.

"To where you are now...."

Instead of listening to others as my sole source of info to make a judgement, I did some research. And I went outside my ususal circle and spoke/listened to people that have a depth of knowledge about such issues.

I looked at the proposal in totality, as the hearing is only 2 days away and I doubt they'll be any other surprises or last second changes, and can't say I have confidence in it.

I don't feel good about it. Wish I did.

As I mentioned before, some information (of a more personal manner) came to light as well, that I don't feel comfortable discussing in public.

fsu813, obviously, I don't agree with your opinion on this issue, but I can't fault you for doing your homework and coming up with your own opinion based off the information you seeked.  Jacksonville would be a completely different place if the majority of people did the same.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2010, 04:42:27 PM
fsu813, obviously, I don't agree with your opinion on this issue, but I can't fault you for doing your homework and coming up with your own opinion based off the information you seeked.  Jacksonville would be a completely different place if the majority of people did the same.

Totally agree...

I concur stephendare not to mention "Information of a more personnel nature has come to light as well that I don't feel comfortable discussing in public"? Then why even mention it? If it offends you so much then don't even post it..............WTH? We allready know that SPAR is dead against this type of business, even though it was allready approved by the City!

Quote from: Dan B on January 12, 2010, 02:27:15 PM
He was approved in the 90s, but did not act in the specified time to maintain the exception (1 year).

Nobody even knew who he was when the overlay was passed.

That all depends on the terms of his first exception. We have no idea. I'd love to see it. Frankly, I think Jones is in over his head. He is a one-man show at this point. The man needs to hire a land use attorney, pronto. It's pretty clear he's getting railroaded. As to someone else's question about what suing SPAR would accomplish, the answer is nothing.

That may be a different story, though, with certain other situations where the mass code-enforcement call-in campaigns have been going on against the same people and property over and over again for years, and where the place has been inspected and found in compliance 4000 times, but yet they still keep doing it because they don't like the outcome of COJ's determination. That's where I think they may have some liability.

But in Jones' case, it pretty certain he probably is required to have a new exception now, so as putrifying as I find those pre-orchestrated code-complaint bombs that SPAR organizes, there probably really was a legit basis there. But regardless of whether or not he gets to open his carwash, the fact remains COJ approved the use, he invested the money, then they took away his exception through a not-that-much-later overlay revision (assuming the original exception didn't automatically expire on its own...again I'd love to see it). But anyway, even if he doesn't get his carwash, it still may be a compensable taking and he may get some money for it. But either way it's COJ on the hook in this one, not SPAR.

So as usual, SPAR does the behind the scenes dirty work and has to take no responsibility for it whatsoever. Not financially, and not by virtue of its leadership facing rough re-elections due to their bad decisions....since they refuse to hold the elections required by their own bylaws.

Must be nice never being accountable to anybody for anything, huh?

Chris...........I agree! Which is part of the problem that I have with SPAR! Since the terms of his exception have not been made public, I too am undecided, but I do agree he may have a legal beef with the City! He needs a legal opinion and representation!

Planning & Zoning and HPC have already said that they will recommend denial, despite what SPARs position is.

You 2 guys seem to forget that.

If things go as anticipated, SPAR will simply be agreeing with the other relevant departments.

And if you think SPAR controls those 2 departments, you're crazy.

Yes, planning and zoning and hpc are recommending denial based on the old site plan, and no new evidence.  That may still be the outcome after Thursday, but it's important to note, they have not seen the revised site plan, design, or decibel readings.

True.

Since it is known that the HPC is recommending denial, on what is that based? I think I have seen the reasons for denial from the planning department, but I do not remember seeing that.  And why was HPC even involved at this point?

Why hasn't he met with them to show them the updated information to see if they would change their recommendation?

Quote from: thelakelander on January 13, 2010, 09:19:50 AM
Why hasn't he met with them to show them the updated information to see if they would change their recommendation?

He has dropped off a packet with them, but they were unable to talk at the time...I don't think he dropped it off before the deadline of getting information in before the next meeting.

then he might be better off asking for a continuance

I agree, if I were him, I'd ask for a continuance.  At this point, another month's delay would not hurt if it gives him a better chance at getting them to reconsider their recommendation based off the revised plans.

The HPC is not involved at this point.  The issue at hand is the Zoning Exception for the carwash that is to be presented before the Planning Commission, not the HPC.  HPC does not get involved unless a COA is submitted to the staff for alterations to the site or the structure itself.  At this point this has not been done because there is no point in doing so if his exception is not approved.

Yeah.  He should ask for a continuance and pay another visit to the zoning department to see if they will reconsider based on the updated information.  Considering he is up against a wall, I don't think it will hurt if he attempts to sit down and work with zoning to alleviate their concerns before asking for official approval or denial. 

Two things;

1: It's been awhile since I've seen the property we're debating. A couple years probably. So after all this hoopla on here, I actually drove out to the carwash property last night and looked around it. This whole debate is utterly !@#$%&* ridiculous. The place is surrounded by 3 or 4 unkempt vacant lots and an abandoned warehouse. How the hell could a carwash possibly make it any worse? It would absolutely be an improvement, and an oasis in the middle of a sea of dead commercial properties.

2: I stopped by 3 Layers coffeehouse during the MJ weekly meeting, and it was very nice to put faces with the screenames on here. It was a pleasure meeting all of you, you have a great crew.

Surrounded by 3 or 4 unkept lots huh? Hay Springfield Girl....... are you the rest of the SPAR Board staying on top of the landscaping? Need some mulch...........I can get you a deal on some?

Uh, I think the lots are owned by the same person that owns the carwash property. Don't take my word for it though, check it out yourself.

They are all owned (including the car wash property) by Chris Hionidies.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 13, 2010, 04:44:07 PM
Uh, I think the lots are owned by the same person that owns the carwash property. Don't take my word for it though, check it out yourself.

Good, then since we agree that none of the wasteland surrounding that place is owned by Silas Jones, then he's not responsible for their condition, and it's certainly not his fault. So why would him opening up a new business not be an improvement over a rundown warehouse and a bunch of vacant lots?

People seem to have the impression that this carwash is going to be some huge disruption to the properties next to it. The truth is that there really aren't any. It's bordered on all sides by an alleyway, an abandoned warehouse, and a bunch of unkempt vacant lots. The property across from it on the south corner of 4th and Main is a closed-down used-car lot that still retains its oh-so-classy 10ft high chainlink fencing.

And considering this together with the fact that the owners of the actual houses on 4th, that are further off Main, actually support this project, then I must really be missing something here. Why is SPAR is working to prevent a horrible nuisance to....let's see...a bunch of vacant lots, an abandoned warehouse, and a used car lot? I can picture them at the zoning meeting wearing T-Shirts: "Weeds have Rights Too!".

My suggestion for the design group and for Mr. Jones would be to go out and photograph the actual state of the surrounding properties. All of the discussion here kind of gives you the impression that this carwash is sitting next door to some 100yr old grandmother's house and is going to cause some big nuisance. That's really not the case.

I think this should be presented at the COJ hearing on Jones' request for an exeption. The uses of the properties surrounding the applying parcel are generally given a lot of weight when determining whether it should get an exception. The argument would be a lot stronger if people were familiarized with the mess already surrounding this place. It would totally be an improvement.

Hearing is today at 1:00, right?

It looks like I won't be able to make it today  :(. Just too much going on at work today. I wish Silas & Content luck.

You know that moderately up scale neighborhoods all have car washes nearby. 

Any updates on the hearing? Unfortunately I work during the day and could not get there...

its still going on.  Check out the live blogging thread.

media.coj.net/cojcouncil for those who want to watch

The feed kept cutting out but it sounded like exception granted upon certain conditions being met. Lighting, no right turn upon exit, no alcohol or cigarette sales, landscaping improvements and more. Still need to pass HPC.

nvrenuf, I think you mean it still has to pass LUZ and then it will go to council.  HPC can only comment on the cosmetics of the building at this point.

The way I understood it was that the site improvements are a condition for the exception. However, the site improvements themselves will require a COA which gets approved by HPC.

Congrats to Mr. Jones on the approval of the carwash exception.

Lots of conditions that should alleviate many, not all, of the the concerns.

Quote from: AlexS on January 14, 2010, 06:12:09 PM
The way I understood it was that the site improvements are a condition for the exception. However, the site improvements themselves will require a COA which gets approved by HPC.

Seems like we are both (or all three of us?) right then...as it will certainly have to go before the HPC for building improvements, as it would even if it wasn't a requirement or condition (the site improvements) made by the PC.   I still believe it will have to continue on through the system to LUZ and the council before it makes it to the HPC, which in the end, can only comment on the cosmetics, not the zoning.

Overall, a good day for Mr. Silas Jones. And, even if some won't agree yet, a good day for Springfield.

that's good news! Can't wait to see the improvements to the neighborhood!

This is your typical one small step at a time............congrats to Mr Jones and all I have to say is "Charge"!

Although I spoke against this, I fear rented land and if he will get a return on his money I do not know if there are enough cars around here to give him a "profit"  but, the result was a win win for everyone.  Mr Jones gets his chance and the nighborhood is protected by the conditions, to which, he readily agreed.

Quote from: chris farley on January 15, 2010, 09:48:48 AM
Although I spoke against this, I fear rented land and if he will get a return on his money I do not know if there are enough cars around here to give him a "profit"  but, the result was a win win for everyone. Mr Jones gets his chance and the nighborhood is protected by the conditions, to which, he readily agreed.

Which was always going to be the case once we got involved...I talked to planning to make sure those conditions were going to be put in in case this was going to be approved and also made sure Silas knew he had to step up to the plate to make those changes.  He understood and knew that this was his last chance. 

This is where I don't get all of the fear that was drawn up about him operating the car wash as is.  This could have been discussed between the property owner and SPAR beforehand, instead of just saying, "It's against the overlay."

Can you just make sure he doesn't install bars, and gates across the doors and windows! that is all I ask. At least now I can get my car washed in Springfield by machine. But the guys at 8th St and Phoenix Ave also do a good job!

Quote from: fsujax on January 15, 2010, 10:02:16 AM
Can you just make sure he doesn't install bars, and gates across the doors and windows! that is all I ask. At least now I can get my car washed in Springfield by machine. But the guys at 8th St and Phoenix Ave also do a good job!

I don't think you have to worry about that....

I really do not wish to get into a big discussion about this, I felt very good about last night, but please note SPAR said they agreed with the code decision.  What else could they do, until recent years they depended on city grants and worked closely with city agencies, how do they suddenly go against these agencies after all the work done, expecially by SPAR to get conditions in place. Work done by people trying to revive early Springfield and not the current people. What saddens me is there was a democratic discussion, points were made (be they bad or good) but once again there is so much junk slung, it is all so silly.  Incidently I thought the gentleman from code was excellent, and showed a graceful  neutrality, he is there to state the law.  I came away from the meeting feeling very good about it all.
As a point of interest, I dislike petitions, I did sign one, but the petition situation was started by the people for the car wash.  It would have been better had they shown up to speak, then again that is their perogative..
Incidently Jason your company does great work, and I believe it was that, that caused Mr. Jones achieve his goal.

Quote from: jason_contentdg on January 15, 2010, 09:54:02 AM
This is where I don't get all of the fear that was drawn up....

Quote from: jason_contentdg on January 15, 2010, 09:54:02 AM
This could have been discussed between the property owner and SPAR beforehand, instead of just saying, "It's against the overlay."

Yeah, well. It's SPAR. What else can you say? At least they were defeated.

I'm glad Mr. Jones got his exception. This is clearly an improvement. Anyone who doesn't believe me, just go look at the surrounding properties. It's a good thing we have this website, since nobody would've known about the backroom campaign to sink the project if it weren't for MJ.

Quote from: chris farley on January 15, 2010, 10:23:56 AM
I really do not wish to get into a big discussion about this, I felt very good about last night, but please note SPAR said they agreed with the code decision.  What else could they do, until recent years they depended on city grants and worked closely with city agencies, how do they suddenly go against these agencies after all the work done, expecially by SPAR to get conditions in place. Work done by people trying to revive early Springfield and not the current people. What saddens me is there was a democratic discussion, points were made (be they bad or good) but once again there is so much junk slung, it is all so silly.  Incidently I thought the gentleman from code was excellent, and showed a graceful  neutrality, he is there to state the law.  I came away from the meeting feeling very good about it all.
As a point of interest, I dislike petitions, I did sign one, but the petition situation was started by the people for the car wash.  It would have been better had they shown up to speak, then again that is their perogative..
Incidently Jason your company does great work, and I believe it was that, that caused Mr. Jones achieve his goal.

Chris, thanks for the kind words and I agree with your sentiments.  Hopefully we've all learned something from this car wash chaos and can carry on with what we all want to see, revitalization.

[/quote]

Which was always going to be the case once we got involved...I talked to planning to make sure those conditions were going to be put in in case this was going to be approved and also made sure Silas knew he had to step up to the plate to make those changes.  He understood and knew that this was his last chance.  

This is where I don't get all of the fear that was drawn up about him operating the car wash as is.  This could have been discussed between the property owner and SPAR beforehand, instead of just saying, "It's against the overlay."
[/quote]

The fear came from the fact that Mr. Jones owned that property for 12 years and during that time it was a blighted mess. He never came to the neighborhood until after he had gone to zoning with his plans. When he did show up at a special meeting to discuss the halfway house issue it was after the fact, unannounced and unprepared. How could anyone there support the plan when he had no plan? He introduced himself and asked for support. When people asked for his drawings and proposal he had nothing to show. He stated very clearly at the hearing last night that he was ready to open in 2007 as is. That showed he had no plans to improve the site and was going to operate as is without any imput from the neighborhood. If he had gone to you guys, or anyone and gotten architectural drawings and come to the neighborhood beforehand in good faith I think he would have had a completely different reception. Trying to pulll a fast one or just thinking that opening the place in the substandard state it is in now does not show good faith towards the neighborhood in my opinion. I'm glad he's onboard now but that wasn't his intention before you guys went to him and thankfully offered help.

Springfield Girl, I understand your train of thought.  My comments are only in regard to the time frame of when we got involved, and made sure he knew there were items and concerns that he needed to address if he wanted to open up.  I still think there's room for community input, I wish we were able to do it before Thursday's meeting...

Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 15, 2010, 10:31:43 AM
The fear came from the fact that Mr. Jones owned that property for 12 years and during that time it was a blighted mess. He never came to the neighborhood until after he had gone to zoning with his plans. When he did show up at a special meeting to discuss the halfway house issue it was after the fact, unannounced and unprepared. How could anyone there support the plan when he had no plan? He introduced himself and asked for support. When people asked for his drawings and proposal he had nothing to show. He stated very clearly at the hearing last night that he was ready to open in 2007 as is. That showed he had no plans to improve the site and was going to operate as is without any imput from the neighborhood. If he had gone to you guys, or anyone and gotten architectural drawings and come to the neighborhood beforehand in good faith I think he would have had a completely different reception. Trying to pulll a fast one or just thinking that opening the place in the substandard state it is in now does not show good faith towards the neighborhood in my opinion. I'm glad he's onboard now but that wasn't his intention before you guys went to him and thankfully offered help.

Oh come on. You guys kept on opposing it even after he had the formal proposal drawn, and invented a rumor that it was going to be a convenience-store-in-disguise out of thin air to scare people. Only after it was obvious you'd already lost the decision did SPAR finally say 'oh yeah...we support this new business' or whatever the comment was. Just saving face.

And 'blighted'? At least it's still standing, unlike every other commercial property around it. So I guess we're back to preferring vacant lots to open businesses? I thought the "P" was for "Preservation" and the "R" was for "Revitalization"?

I invented no such thing as it was stated a convenience store could have been opened all along. Mr. Jones showed no good faith. He kept his property blighted for 12 years and only chose to do improvements in the 11th hour when he thought he was going to be denied. If he had intended to get drawings and improve his site he would have done it before going to zoning to ask for the exception not afterwards. I have no doubt that he would have continued on the same path he has followed for these last 12 years. He stated very clearly at the hearing last night that he was ready to open in 2007 as is. So thankfully Jason did get involved but it was never Mr. Jones intention to take that path.

I dont believe anyone has claimed Silas was as pure as the driven snow, or even right on every issue. All most have called for is for SPAR to step up and attempt to help him do the right thing, rather than condemn him, without even an attempt to do so.

Quote from: chris farley on January 15, 2010, 10:23:56 AM
I really do not wish to get into a big discussion about this, I felt very good about last night, but please note SPAR said they agreed with the code decision.  What else could they do, until recent years they depended on city grants and worked closely with city agencies, how do they suddenly go against these agencies after all the work done, expecially by SPAR to get conditions in place. Work done by people trying to revive early Springfield and not the current people. What saddens me is there was a democratic discussion, points were made (be they bad or good) but once again there is so much junk slung, it is all so silly.  Incidently I thought the gentleman from code was excellent, and showed a graceful  neutrality, he is there to state the law.  I came away from the meeting feeling very good about it all.
As a point of interest, I dislike petitions, I did sign one, but the petition situation was started by the people for the car wash.  It would have been better had they shown up to speak, then again that is their perogative..
Incidently Jason your company does great work, and I believe it was that, that caused Mr. Jones achieve his goal.

Chris, I think our discussion last night at 3 Layers was beneficial.  The community really should have had a roundtable discussion on the car wash as an open forum.  I am glad that you have remained rational and thoughtful through this process.  However, I see a lot of the problem with the thinking that was also present at the table last night.  

It seems that people are going to believe what they want to believe and let fear drive their points for them.  Others sitting at the table have not read the overlay, and have not done their research as to the proposals set forth.  If they had, they would have known that he was not planning on opening a typical Springfield convenience store.  

I think the discussion was good to have to once again voice different opinions.  I just wish some folks would open their minds and dig a little bit more for information before opposing a project.  While I think all of us have some fear and hesitation that Silas won't do what he says, we can't be the rulers of this person's future because of those fears.

Quote from: jason_contentdg on January 15, 2010, 10:39:12 AM
Springfield Girl, I understand your train of thought.  My comments are only in regard to the time frame of when we got involved, and made sure he knew there were items and concerns that he needed to address if he wanted to open up.  I still think there's room for community input, I wish we were able to do it before Thursday's meeting...

x2

Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 15, 2010, 10:51:46 AM
I invented no such thing as it was stated a convenience store could have been opened all along. Mr. Jones showed no good faith. He kept his property blighted for 12 years and only chose to do improvements in the 11th hour when he thought he was going to be denied. If he had intended to get drawings and improve his site he would have done it before going to zoning to ask for the exception not afterwards. I have no doubt that he would have continued on the same path he has followed for these last 12 years. He stated very clearly at the hearing last night that he was ready to open in 2007 as is. So thankfully Jason did get involved but it was never Mr. Jones intention to take that path.

Yes SG, clearly that's the correct interpretation of the situation. It makes complete and total sense that the man would spend $500k installing all that car washing equipment, so he could sell malt liquor and cigarettes out of a blighted hellhole.

You SPAR people just crack me up. Honestly. What do you even say here? Nobody even bothered to ask him what he wanted to do. You just made a bunch of incorrect assumptions, sabotaged his grand opening, and then fought it tooth and nail ever since.

there's no sense rehashing everything.

but if you'd like to get your facts str8 you can PM me.

Quote from: fsu813 on January 15, 2010, 12:13:05 PM
there's no sense rehashing everything.

but if you'd like to get your facts str8 you can PM me.

The facts seem pretty straight.

We've all read Jones' correspondence to COJ, describing the pre-orchestrated complaint call-ins that killed his grand opening. We've seen firsthand the attitudes of SPAR members towards this project, both on the video of the Planning Commission meeting, and also on these forums.

And the claim that SPAR was only against the project before the plans were revised is just utter B.S., since Content Design's revised plans for the site have been floating around for at least several weeks, and yet you guys still showed up to speak against him at the Planning meeting. Not to mention submitting a petition against it.

And now we just got a firsthand account of the meeting where SPAR allegedly gave him the opportunity to describe his objectives, where he apparently didn't get 3 words out before being tarred & feathered. The resident who witnessed it said he was actually embarrassed by the way Jones was treated.

So what's missing, exactly? Even if he was going to open a beer & cig store (he wasn't), or hell, even a brothel or crackhouse, you guys would never know it, since SPAR had already made up its mind and didn't need to look at any of those pesky 'facts,' or apparently even ask him what he planned to do (and then actually let him talk).

Quote from: fsu813 on January 15, 2010, 12:13:05 PM
there's no sense rehashing everything.

but if you'd like to get your facts str8 you can PM me.

ChriswUFGator............your summation is pretty much on target..........I feel the exact same way!

I'm writing this after reading this thread and the Planning Commission thread and the SPAR list threat.  Why do we have to denigrate people who disagree with us?  Everyone has a right, and I would say an obligation, to weigh in on issues they believe will affect their own or their neighbors' qualify of life. 

For example, you may disagree with SPAR's position on this or other things, but give them some credit for being involved in trying to make their neighborhood better.  Get involved with SPAR if you want to change their positions. 

I believe the most important thing is protecting people's quality of life where they live.  Most who live in suburbia don't have to worry about this because commercial is separate from residential.  It is more challenging in an urban environment and more critical because of the mixed uses.  And the major consideration always should be, how will this affect the residents quality of life.

 

Quote from: Kay on January 15, 2010, 03:56:35 PM
I'm writing this after reading this thread and the Planning Commission thread and the SPAR list threat.  Why do we have to denigrate people who disagree with us?  Everyone has a right, and I would say an obligation, to weigh in on issues they believe will affect their own or their neighbors' qualify of life. 

QuoteKay.......I agree whole heatedly! I would suggest you read the entire thread and those related in order to get a full grasp of just what has been taking place............once you do that, then give me your take on the situation if you would!

Quote from: Kay on January 15, 2010, 03:56:35 PM
I'm writing this after reading this thread and the Planning Commission thread and the SPAR list threat.  Why do we have to denigrate people who disagree with us?  Everyone has a right, and I would say an obligation, to weigh in on issues they believe will affect their own or their neighbors' qualify of life. 

For example, you may disagree with SPAR's position on this or other things, but give them some credit for being involved in trying to make their neighborhood better.  Get involved with SPAR if you want to change their positions. 

I believe the most important thing is protecting people's quality of life where they live.  Most who live in suburbia don't have to worry about this because commercial is separate from residential.  It is more challenging in an urban environment and more critical because of the mixed uses.  And the major consideration always should be, how will this affect the residents quality of life.

 

You are spot on Kay, but what is missing is the behind the scenes nonsense that certain members engage in. SPAR should be concerned about the betterment of the neighborhood, and you would think protecting historical structures would be at the top of that list, but no....

Quote from: uptowngirl on January 15, 2010, 05:09:45 PM

Quote from: Kay on January 15, 2010, 03:56:35 PM
I'm writing this after reading this thread and the Planning Commission thread and the SPAR list threat.  Why do we have to denigrate people who disagree with us?  Everyone has a right, and I would say an obligation, to weigh in on issues they believe will affect their own or their neighbors' qualify of life. 

For example, you may disagree with SPAR's position on this or other things, but give them some credit for being involved in trying to make their neighborhood better.  Get involved with SPAR if you want to change their positions. 

I believe the most important thing is protecting people's quality of life where they live.  Most who live in suburbia don't have to worry about this because commercial is separate from residential.  It is more challenging in an urban environment and more critical because of the mixed uses.  And the major consideration always should be, how will this affect the residents quality of life.

 

You are spot on Kay, but what is missing is the behind the scenes nonsense that certain members engage in. SPAR should be concerned about the betterment of the neighborhood, and you would think protecting historical structures would be at the top of that list, but no....

^ +1

I agree that promoting and fighting to protect historic structures should be a priority of any organization whose mission includes historic preservation. 

Quote from: Dan B on January 15, 2010, 05:17:00 PM

Quote from: uptowngirl on January 15, 2010, 05:09:45 PM

Quote from: Kay on January 15, 2010, 03:56:35 PM
I'm writing this after reading this thread and the Planning Commission thread and the SPAR list threat.  Why do we have to denigrate people who disagree with us?  Everyone has a right, and I would say an obligation, to weigh in on issues they believe will affect their own or their neighbors' qualify of life. 

For example, you may disagree with SPAR's position on this or other things, but give them some credit for being involved in trying to make their neighborhood better.  Get involved with SPAR if you want to change their positions. 

I believe the most important thing is protecting people's quality of life where they live.  Most who live in suburbia don't have to worry about this because commercial is separate from residential.  It is more challenging in an urban environment and more critical because of the mixed uses.  And the major consideration always should be, how will this affect the residents quality of life.

 

You are spot on Kay, but what is missing is the behind the scenes nonsense that certain members engage in. SPAR should be concerned about the betterment of the neighborhood, and you would think protecting historical structures would be at the top of that list, but no....

^ +1

^+1 more!

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 15, 2010, 04:14:40 PM

Quote from: Kay on January 15, 2010, 03:56:35 PM
I'm writing this after reading this thread and the Planning Commission thread and the SPAR list threat.  Why do we have to denigrate people who disagree with us?  Everyone has a right, and I would say an obligation, to weigh in on issues they believe will affect their own or their neighbors' qualify of life. 

Quote

Kay.......I agree whole heatedly! I would suggest you read the entire thread and those related in order to get a full grasp of just what has been taking place............once you do that, then give me your take on the situation if you would!

I don't know enough about this--only what I've read on the blog.  If there are homes across the street, then I think a car wash is too intensive.  I would not want to live across from a car wash.  I understand the view about improving an existing and neglected building and site--that it adds more value.  But when you have an intensive use next to residential there must be a way to buffer it such that it doesn't negatively impact quality of life or reduce the values of the residential properties.  At a minimum, there should be a buffer and the car wash moved toward Main St. and the entrance and exit on that street (although I've been told that there is no access to this property from Main St).  Also, some of those noise decibels were higher than I would want to live next to.  I think the FDOT standard is 65 or lower.  So everything possible should be done to protect the residents if it goes forward.

It also seems that some in the community believe that this business owner cannot deliver on the proposed design.  I think you have to make some room that they may be right about this, or at least that it is a legitimate concern.  

QuoteIf there are homes across the street, then I think a car wash is too intensive.  I would not want to live across from a car wash.  I understand the view about improving an existing and neglected building and site--that it adds more value.  But when you have an intensive use next to residential there must be a way to buffer it such that it doesn't negatively impact quality of life or reduce the values of the residential properties.  At a minimum, there should be a buffer and the car wash moved toward Main St. and the entrance and exit on that street (although I've been told that there is no access to this property from Main St).

The car wash facility has been located on this site since 1955.  Also, from what I understand, the two residential properties across the street are in favor of the project.  The properties on all three other sides are commercial.  I do believe if these things were not a part of this particular case, that it would not have been approved.

site
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/752700152_L5FLJ-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/752700220_Ysd6V-M.jpg)

QuoteAlso, some of those noise decibels were higher than I would want to live next to.  I think the FDOT standard is 65 or lower.  So everything possible should be done to protect the residents if it goes forward.

Here are the current decibel levels at the site
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/752700262_EW3pk-M.jpg)

Here are the proposed decibel levels between the hours of 8am and 6pm
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/752700276_3nkDd-M.jpg)

Nothing really changes for most of the residential properties.  The two that do, have been said to be in favor of the project.

QuoteIt also seems that some in the community believe that this business owner cannot deliver on the proposed design.  I think you have to make some room that they may be right about this, or at least that it is a legitimate concern.

From my view, while a concern to some, this should not factor heavily into a zoning exception or not for this particular use.  Nevertheless, the approval comes with the owner being tied to delivering the site and structural conditions illustrated in their concept.  He can't open without.  This addition should be a win/win for all involved.

All this over a car wash.

There are much larger issues at play.  I think the car wash just unfortunately got caught up in the middle of a neighborhood gentrification battle.  My guess is, if things don't change quick, this project won't be the last.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mSVZmk8Yzg

Quote from: Dan B on January 15, 2010, 08:15:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mSVZmk8Yzg

That movie cracks me up.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 15, 2010, 08:03:06 PM
There are much larger issues at play.  I think the car wash just unfortunately got caught up in the middle of a neighborhood gentrification battle.  My guess is, if things don't change quick, this project won't be the last.

I think we, as a neighborhood, need to become educated on "gentrification".

Quote from: sheclown on January 15, 2010, 09:29:02 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 15, 2010, 08:03:06 PM
There are much larger issues at play.  I think the car wash just unfortunately got caught up in the middle of a neighborhood gentrification battle.  My guess is, if things don't change quick, this project won't be the last.

I think we, as a neighborhood, need to become educated on "gentrification".

When I lived in San Fran, I was made aware of gender reassignment, does that count?

It is a similar process, only more painful.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 15, 2010, 10:41:36 AM
Oh come on. You guys kept on opposing it even after he had the formal proposal drawn, and invented a rumor that it was going to be a convenience-store-in-disguise out of thin air to scare people...

Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 15, 2010, 10:51:46 AM
I invented no such thing...

Uh huh...

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,7277.0.html (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,7277.0.html)

This is just sad.  SPAR needs to get the hell out of the way and let businesses move forward.  It may be a car wash, but it's the nicest damn car wash I've ever seen and looking at the before and after, thanks to Content Design, this is a GARGANTUAN improvement on that portion of the neighborhood.  It seems to me that SPAR has an axe to grind and they are just gettin down on this sucker! 

"It seems to me that SPAR has an axe to grind and they are just gettin down on this sucker!"

- while i don't think appealing should be a high priority personally, they don't "have an axe to grind". making stuff up isn't a good thing to do.

yes. you're right. a conspiracy years in the making.

anyone who wants to know why they are appealing, just ask them: 353-7727.

Quote from: stephendare on February 04, 2010, 02:53:49 PM
I thought you personally spoke for them, FSU.

No I got schooled in that the other day...

See, it goes like this. Some SPAR members, officers, or directors, get together, usually at a SPAR meeting at the SPAR building, and based on information from other SPAR members, officers, or directors, they decide to take some action that follows SPAR's position on things, but then if the $h!t hits the fan, it's somehow not "officially" SPAR that's doing it. Makes a lotta sense to me.

I think I compared it to when Bernie Madoff got arrested, all the news channels always had to say "allegedly," they couldn't just call him a crook yet. So that's apparently how it works.

so...

"Evil SPAR Zombies will [allegedly] Eat Silas Jones Brain if they Must! Will Appeal Car Wash!"

More like "Evil allegedly-SPAR zombies will eat Silas Jones' brain if they must...but not 'officially' on behalf of SPAR"

LMFAO!

Some claim Evil allegedly-SPAR zombies propose to eat Silas Jones' brain if they must...but not 'officially' on behalf of SPAR, or any other organization, or local group.

Sheclown I have seen you on this web profess your love of Jesus.  Is this what faith teaches? namecall namecall namecall.  Is there a beatitude to fit this action.  This kind of belies the teachings of Christ.  Surely opposition to any matter could be done without this.

I was very happy with the outcome of the meeting, Silas Jones and his brains got the go ahead with his carwash and the community was protected.

I am now thinking of donating money to the neighbors who are protesting,  they do have the right, unless "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose"

Tonic actually Stephen tonic

Quote from: chris farley on February 07, 2010, 11:21:10 PM
Sheclown I have seen you on this web profess your love of Jesus.  Is this what faith teaches? namecall namecall namecall.  Is there a beatitude to fit this action.  This kind of belies the teachings of Christ.  Surely opposition to any matter could be done without this.

I was very happy with the outcome of the meeting, Silas Jones and his brains got the go ahead with his carwash and the community was protected.

I am now thinking of donating money to the neighbors who are protesting,  they do have the right, unless "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose"

Good point.

I constantly fall short of God's glory. 

What was that old adage about don't throw rocks when you live in a house of glass?

(http://www.recipetips.com/images/recipe/beverages/gin_tonic.jpg)

Damn...that looks gooooooooooooood...

The public hearing for the appeal of the zoning exception for the car wash has been schedlued.  This is the appeal that SPAR Council is "not" behind...and yet they are.

If you truly believe that the Springfield Commercial corridor is important and that we need a variety of uses rather than only the higher end uses SPAR Council and their supporters wish for and know we need new businesses now, please make every attempt at attending this meeting and speak on behalf of Mr. Silas and this car wash.  SPAR Council and it's supporters failed to stop the passing of the exception originally and they need to be shown that the community of Springfield does indeed support the real overlay, new businesses of all types and that the original decision should stand. 

QuoteResolution 2010-167: A resolution concerning the appeal of a final order issued by the planning commission regarding zoning exception E-09-54 to 1424 Main Street, LLC, regarding a car washer on property located at 25 W. 4th St. and a portion of 1424 Main St.; adopting recommended findings and conclusions of the land use and zoning committee. A public hearing concerning this legislation had been scheduled for Tuesday, April 6, 2010 at 5:00 p.m. in City Council Chambers, 1st Floor of City Hall, 117 W. Duval St. Please note that appeals are typically taken up at the end of the Land Use and Zoning Committee Meeting. All persons wishing to speak to this legislation should appear at the meeting.

heck, by the time all this crap is settled cars will be obsolete. 

I wonder if there will be another live blog of this event?  I'll be in New Orleans that week.

That live blog was THE BEST

Quote from: stephendare on March 11, 2010, 09:10:04 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 11, 2010, 07:30:38 PM
I wonder if there will be another live blog of this event?  I'll be in New Orleans that week.

There most certainly will.

As must as it pains me to say it, I liked the last one Stephen.  Always the wordsmith.

Quote from: Hypocrite on March 11, 2010, 09:43:30 PM
As must as it pains me to say it

Why be rude? The guy takes the time to go do a live blog for everybody, surely we can be nicer than that?

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 11, 2010, 10:06:37 PM

Quote from: Hypocrite on March 11, 2010, 09:43:30 PM
As must as it pains me to say it

Why be rude? The guy takes the time to go do a live blog for everybody, surely we can be nicer than that?

You are asking me, why be rude? LOL, pretty funny.  There are bigger offenders on here, go bug them.

do these people live within the 350 foot range?

at least three of them do.

I am not even sure what 350' has to do with it, as decibel levels were taken by an audio engineer with the equipment running, and with the equipment off, and the noise really doesn't even make it off the property line, let alone 350' off it.

(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/4443/7527002763nkddl.jpg)

The only people who would possibly be bothered by it would be the people on that segment of street, and only then because of increased traffic. And to my knowledge, they all support the project and declined to participate in the appeal.

I'm afraid this car wash issue is going to be the final nail for this neighborhood and any hopes for reconnecting unless we can do something to prevent any further diversion.

Let's hope this issue is important enough to warrant the cost.

One picture is with the equipment running, and the other is the already-existing ambient noise level measured at the same spots;

(http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/4205/752700262ew3pkm.jpg)

As you can see, there is virtually no change at all, and the normal swings in ambient noise levels outweigh the noise of the car wash equipment. So other than a couple extra cars on the street, this thing simply has no impact to anyone who doesn't live directly next door.

And, of course, there isn't anybody living directly next door in the first place, because those are vacant commercial properties. Moreover, this thing has been a car wash for 60 years. And I still come back to the fact that the biggest anti-car wash people don't live anywhere near it, let alone within earshot of it.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 12, 2010, 11:42:56 AM
I am not even sure what 350' has to do with it, as decibel levels were taken by an audio engineer with the equipment running, and with the equipment off, and the noise really doesn't even make it off the property line, let alone 350' off it.

The City is required to notify all property owners within 350 feet of a property that is the subject of rezoning activity.  This requirement acknowledges that nearby property owners - even those that may not be immediately adjacent to the subject - are affected by such rezoning.  Noise certainly isn't the only impact of a new business.

Owners of the neighboring properties also have a specific right to appeal zoning decisions.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 12, 2010, 11:50:41 AM. Moreover, this thing has been a car wash for 60 years.

False, it has been out of operation and empty for at least 12 years.

To be fair those recordings were not done by an audio engineer, but by us using a decibel reader.  Which really, if people are worried about the equipment sound, could easily ask Silas to run the equipment for them.  But, many just want to use the sound and the strange thought that the majority of the traffic is going to turn into the neighborhood's secondary streets instead of going back out to the main artery as the issues to fight the project.  When in reality the main issue is that they think a car wash is a bad, negative business for the neighborhood...not because of the sound or traffic it would generate, but because of its negative perception.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 12, 2010, 12:03:14 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 12, 2010, 11:50:41 AM. Moreover, this thing has been a car wash for 60 years.

False, it has been out of operation and empty for at least 12 years.

Actually it was only out of operation for 2-3 years. Then Silas bought it and spent several years and $500k replacing and upgrading the equipment and fixing up the building. Then 2+ years ago, your group of SPARbarians rewarded his massive investment in the neighborhood by sabotaging his grand opening day with one of your classic code-enforcement call-in campaigns, and have been fighting back and forth with COJ over allowing him to open ever since.

So I don't see how you get to point out how long it's been out of operation as somehow supporting your position, when in fact your group is actually responsible for it still being out of operation! I mean, come on...

Quote from: jason_contentdg on March 12, 2010, 12:10:46 PM
To be fair those recordings were not done by an audio engineer, but by us using a decibel reader.  Which really, if people are worried about the equipment sound, could easily ask Silas to run the equipment for them.  But, many just want to use the sound and the strange thought that the majority of the traffic is going to turn into the neighborhood's secondary streets instead of going back out to the main artery as the issues to fight the project.  When in reality the main issue is that they think a car wash is a bad, negative business for the neighborhood...not because of the sound or traffic it would generate, but because of its negative perception.

Sorry, we generally hired one, and I figured you'd done the same. But either way, the point remains the same, the noise issue is non-existent and doesn't really make it off the property line.

Quote from: stephendare on March 12, 2010, 12:17:57 PM
So Chris, it wasnt ever something besides a car wash?

It was never a coffeeshop or a petunia farm or a Bed Bath and Beyond?

Well surely then, Springfield Girl was mistaken in declaring your post 'false'.

Im sure she wasnt deliberately lying about it.  Thank goodness its a civil group in springfield.

Her position is ridiculous.

It's like saying "Your honor, you have to dismiss this case because I just killed the only witness...". SPAR is the only reason the place isn't open already, so it really takes some giant cajones for those same people to then argue that it being out of operation somehow supports their position against it, when they're the reason it's still out of operation.

What kind of cyclical logic is that?

Quote from: stephendare on March 12, 2010, 12:22:28 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 12, 2010, 12:21:07 PM

Quote from: stephendare on March 12, 2010, 12:17:57 PM
So Chris, it wasnt ever something besides a car wash?

It was never a coffeeshop or a petunia farm or a Bed Bath and Beyond?

Well surely then, Springfield Girl was mistaken in declaring your post 'false'.

Im sure she wasnt deliberately lying about it.  Thank goodness its a civil group in springfield.

Her position is ridiculous.

It's like saying "Your honor, you have to dismiss this case because I just killed the only witness...". SPAR is the only reason the place isn't open already, so it really takes some giant cajones for those same people to then argue that it being out of operation somehow supports their position against it.

What kind of cyclical logic is that?

But isnt a 'closed' car wash still a car wash?

Or does it revert to a magical pumpkin drawn by unicorns and fairy magic at 8pm until 10 am?

Well, yeah, clearly the thing has always been a car wash. There's nothing else you can do with a structure that is just a long tunnel full of car washing equipment, plus driveways to feed the cars through, except...well...a car wash. It's either that, or tear it down, I don't think it could be used for anything else. It was purpose-built as a car wash, and has never been anything else.

Of course we already know SPAR prefers vacant lots, so I guess this shouldn't be surprising.

Chris, I have lived in Springfield for 9 years and that building has been empty the whole time. It was an overgrown blighted property. It has been empty for longer than that though so I take issue with some of you saying it has been a carwash for 60 years. With your definition of use, 9th and Main would be a tire store. It may have been built as a carwash and used as carwash in the past but most recentl,y for over a decade it has been a vacant, blighted building and lot.
You don't know me or much of what you spout off about on this site. You talk about those of us living in Springfield and events here like you know what's going on, when you are really only regurgitating second hand gossip. Dude, 5th grade is so over, time to give up the vendetta.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 12, 2010, 12:43:05 PM
Chris, I have lived in Springfield for 9 years and that building has been empty the whole time. It was an overgrown blighted property. It has been empty for longer than that though so I take issue with some of you saying it has been a carwash for 60 years. With your definition of use, 9th and Main would be a tire store. It may have been built as a carwash and used as carwash in the past but most recentl,y for over a decade it has been a vacant, blighted building and lot.
You don't know me or much of what you spout off about on this site. You talk about those of us living in Springfield and events here like you know what's going on, when you are really only regurgitating second hand gossip. Dude, 5th grade is so over, time to give up the vendetta.

Total B.S.

It's not that I don't know what I'm talking about, it's that you just don't want to hear it. Or, more accurately, that you don't want other people to hear it.

Here, everyone can decide for themselves, specifically check out paragraphs 13 and 14;

(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3604/752707822y3vh7600x10000.jpg)
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9067/752707598lsmzn600x10000.jpg)
(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/612/752707690hwajf600x10000.jpg)
(http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/6343/752707748wdbng600x10000.jpg)
(http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/359/752707900qgajf600x10000.jpg)

Or is everyone just a big fat liar, except for you, SG?

So I'm a liar, Stephen's a liar, Silas Jones is a liar, etc., etc. Seems like everyone who disagrees with your viewpoint on any given issue is branded a "liar". (Like I actually care what you think of me.) Which is hilarious, because I actually back up what I post with real evidence, while you just sit there calling everyone who disagrees with you a liar, or making attempts to discredit them. Without realizing that you're only succeeding in discrediting yourself.

Meanwhile, half the neighborhood has been demolished on your watch, and your group's been caught with its hand inside so many cookie jars I've lost count. Give it a rest.

Check note 13 in the letter  not one of those persons was a member of SPAR at the time and I know that three of them - one made two calls were very anti SPAR at the time.  Just a note of interest.

pg 20 & 21 of this thread (well...most of it really) are a great example of why noone few take you seriously on these issues anymore.

"However, Few, No one will take you seriously again if you cant answer the following questions: "

- (sigh)

ok.

Is there a 12 step program for other very public human foibles?

Quote from: chris farley on March 12, 2010, 01:14:22 PM
Check note 13 in the letter  not one of those persons was a member of SPAR at the time and I know that three of them - one made two calls were very anti SPAR at the time.  Just a note of interest.

You and I have had this same discussion over SPAR's sandbagging of Silas Jones' grand opening several months ago, and rather than re-typing it all, I will just save time and re-post what I posted back then.

The truth is that the people who conducted the call-in campaign to sabotage his grand opening are in fact all closely linked to Louise DeSpain and SPAR. Some were indeed SPAR members, or the spouses of SPAR members.

As I described before, in my view, this is another clear case of SPAR putting people up to doing something and then later claiming "well it's not officially SPAR". Yeah right. They can call it whatever they want "officially" but that doesn't change the fact that it's always the same cast of characters that seem to be involved in these things.

Although, since this post was originally written, Louise literally tried to stage a hostile takeover of the Womens Club, showing up with a pile of new members to vote herself in as director. Which from all accounts went over like a lead balloon. So after that, I doubt the WC would give her the time of day anymore. So that portion of my post no longer applies. But the rest of it does, and it still serves to connect all the dots between the names who sandbagged Silas Jones and SPAR.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 11, 2010, 09:52:43 AM

Quote from: chris farley on January 10, 2010, 10:07:10 PM
Not one of those five people. named in the letter,  who made calls is or was a member of SPAR, that part is incorrect

Alright. Well Chris, I happen to think you're one of the few on "that side" of this debate who is probably well-intentioned. We may not agree on some of this stuff, but I have never gotten the impression that you're malicious like others. So while I'd normally just make some wise-ass funny response, I will instead actually run through a full explanation of everything that bothers me.

To start with, SPAR has long enlisted the help of the Woman's Club / Springfield Improvement Association to help beef up its pre-orchestrated code-enforcement call-in campaigns (a/k/a/ tortious interference suits waiting to happen) that SPAR has become infamous for.

If you have any doubts, just take a peek at the minutes of just a single recent Woman's club meeting. SPAR, through Claude Moulton, who you'll no doubt recognize as SPAR's current President and member of SPAR's Board of Directors, made the latest presentation pitching the attendees on the perils of what SPAR alleged was a ballooning number of problem properties.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:yse4eGilJXAJ:www.springfieldwomansclub.org/orangeblossom_2009-09.pdf+Sharlene+Dano+SPAR+jacksonville&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

At that time, he also talked the Club members into signing yet another petition against rooming / halfway houses (a pretty clear swipe at J&G, given the timing of her fake assault allegations against him), and asked for help with the call-in campaigns. Specifically, the minutes of the meeting describe the petition and go on to say "he asked for our assistance identifying" new problem properties. Ahem. Now what do you think that means? Time to spy on your neighbors!

But I guess the Woman's Club members have reason to be grateful, as at least they were actually told they were signing a petition and not some bogus "sign-in sheet". But anyway, looking at the audience present at just this one single meeting, you'll note that, coincidentally enough, it included Louise DeSpain's buddy Susan Noonan. That name should be familiar, because she and her husband Frank, who also happens to work together with SPAR's own Doug Vanderlaan at SHADCO, were the first calls in this particular rush of SPAR-induced bogus COJ complaints. And I believe Amanda Searle actually is or was a member of both organizations, so I believe the comment that she is not involved was just error. Additionally, all of these people have been directly involved with SPAR at one time or another.

You'll also note Sharlene Dano's presence, whose name you should also recognize from the Silas Jones ordeal, since she actually double-dipped and called twice in 20 minutes just to rack up an extra complaint. Additionally, all of the above, including Louise DeSpain, get together for "Operation Safe Streets" and are all well familiar with each other.

http://www.coj.net/NR/rdonlyres/e73xv7ncms3vrga6bqofml5ocb3nyv3qfsnxs7vtbsppukqcyxxulzu2ci7cwoo5327ud7trj3fojqg5b3j77bn5bre/OSS+Report+032008.pdf

So this group is all intertwined. The organizations they're involved with are ostensibly serving the public good, but wind up getting sidetracked and involved in one individual's personal crusades. And also bear in mind, these are just the complaints that COJ has names for. God knows how many "anonymous" complaints got called in. I bet for every one with a name attached, there were multiple anonymous ones. That's human nature.

So why does this happen? Where does this come from? Well, there's one particular person who goes on these ridiculous crusades. Why? I don't know. Her longest-running one has to be the one vs. Strider and Sheclown. I mean, that one just gets downright crazy. She tried to have him trespassed for a bogus assault allegation, banned him from public meetings, and to put the icing on this particular layer-cake of dysfunction, she actually had the gall to write Obama a letter where, in between rambling on about various topics and apologizing for the ugly state of the neighborhood (and everyone who says what a great job SPAR's done over the last decade, go ahead and explain why its director is apologizing that he had to look at the place), she makes a point of sliding in several paragraphs that blame Springfield's current problems on them, I $h!t you not.

I'm still debating whether this hilarious letter deserves its own thread. May as well just send in their pictures too, and ask him to get the CIA to "intervene." Her letter goes off on how "certain social services organizations in and near our district" have caused Springfield to suffer an "overflow of homeless and mentally challenged persons," and how SPAR "has worked closely with the City of Jacksonville’s Code Compliance division to enforce municipal code violations in the community that continue to cause blight and deterioration", yada, yada, yada.

I have to take a second to hand it to Strider here...apparently he pissed her off bad enough that Code Enforcement just wasn't doing it anymore, she actually wrote the President of the United States! LMFAO!

So anyway, with these call-ins, the motivation is irrational, and usually based on incorrect information (like when she showed up and accosted the guy with his two adopted kids because she thought it was a halfway house), and it all comes from one place. She needs as many people as possible to participate in these call-ins in order to trigger COJ action, and so these additional people get enlisted in it.

Some of them probably just take her at face-value, some probably just don't know any better, and some do it because SPAR, SHADCO, the WC, Safe Streets, etc., comprise such a large part of their social network that they'll probably just do what they feel pressured to do. Anyway, for kicks, here's her ridiculous letter to Obama for entertainment value;

Quote
Dear President-Elect Obama,

What an exciting time we are in, and what an optimism you and your promises of urban renewal bring to the Springfield National Historic District in Jacksonville, Florida, and areas like ours nationwide.

My name is Louise DeSpain, and I am the Executive Director of the Springfield Preservation and Revitalization (SPAR) Council (www.sparcouncil.org). As indicated, Springfield is a National Historic District, and is located on the northern edge of the City of Jacksonville’s downtown Central Business District.

Like many urban neighborhoods, Springfield began declining in the 1950’s, endured racial conflict in the 1960s, and continued into physical, economic and educational deterioration, with increases in crime, drug usage/addiction, and teen birth/infant mortality rates well into the 1990s.

I believe you have familiarity with our neighborhood, as your Jacksonville campaign headquarters were located in one of our Klutho-designed historic structures at 1830 N. Main Street. Our community may not have been pretty when you visited, but SPAR’s hope is that soon, it will be pretty (but we've done SUCH a good job!), safe and enriching for all its residents.

Through resident commitment, municipal, state and federal programs, and with recent support from our District 7 Councilmember, Dr. Johnny Gaffney, Springfield has made much progress doing all of the “right” things:  ::)  ::)  ::) (yeah, that's why you're apologizing to Obama for even having to look at the place, right?)

- In 1987, a one-mile square area founded in 1869 and containing a significant number of homes and commercial buildings constructed from the 1890s-1920s, was designated the Springfield National Historic District (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Jacksonville,_Florida);

- In 1994, the Springfield area and many of its surrounding neighborhoods were designated a Federal Empowerment Zone;

- In 1995, the State of Florida passed similar legislation designating the area a Florida Enterprise Zone. SPAR now fundraises in three key areas, Residential Safety & Maintenance, Commercial Corridor Revitalization, and Hogan’s Creek Parks Revitalization, through the Enterprise Zone’s Community Contribution Tax Credit program (§220.183 F.S.);

- In 2001, the Springfield Historic District Zoning Overlay was enacted, protecting the community from new infiltration of inappropriate land uses; (Insert Joe and Gloria's picture here)

- Since 2003, the City of Jacksonville has invested more than $20M on streetscape improvement, including new underground utility, sewer and stormwater infrastructure, on our two main commercial corridors, Main Street and 8th Street;

- Between the mid-1990s and the mid-2000s, SHARP grants and façade grants were available to support existing, and attract new, residents and businesses in the area;

- Springfield has been working closely with its primary “economic engines,” UF/Shands Jacksonville, Florida Community College at Jacksonville (FCCJ) and Bethel Baptist.

o UF/Shands is the Northeast Florida region’s indigent-care facility and Level 1 Trauma Center. The University of Florida has its Medical, Nursing, Pharmacy, and Dentistry schools at this location, and has constructed a $150M proton-therapy cancer treatment center on the Historic District’s border. In conjunction with the County and State Boards of Health, the new federal Veterans Administration facility, and our own Darnell Cookman Middle School of the Medical Arts, Springfield is becoming a regional health and wellness cluster; (Wait a second, wasn't she actually opposed to additional VA presence?)

o FCCJ is the region’s community college focused on transitional jobs and career pathways, and has recently been designated a State College that will offer four-year workforce training and bachelor’s degrees;

- The community has attracted a couple of private developers who are affecting positive change â€" SRG Homes & Neighborhoods (srghomes.com) builds historically-appropriate, single- and multi-family infill homes, and utilizes Empowerment and FLEnterprise Zone credits. (on lots that become vacant due to our code-enforcement call-ins, how convenient!) And Cesery Cos. is building the first new building on Main Street â€" a 47,000 square foot mixed-use project â€" in 40 years, that is expected to add 12 full-time jobs to the area;

- SPAR has been in close partnership with the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office (JSO) for the past three years. Springfield hosts a monthly Sheriff’s Advisory Committee (SHADCO) meeting, and SPAR, working with private partners, has funded in excess of $500,000 of community policing over that time period;

- Since 2006, SPAR has worked closely with the City of Jacksonville’s Code Compliance division to enforce municipal code violations in the community that continue to cause blight and deterioration. (Yeah I'll say so, they sure keep COJ's phones ringing off the hook with bogus complaints!) SPAR has a very successful Block Captains program and ,with the support of private partners, funded in excess of $500,000 of litter and trash removal;

- SPAR has expressed its interest in partnering with the City of Jacksonville’s Housing and Neighborhoods department to implement the Neighborhood Stabilization Program, and specifically HERA 2008 §2301(c)(3)(D) and 24 CFR 570.201(d), within the portion of the 32206 ZIP targeted area that is overlapped by the Historic District;  ::)  ::)  ::) Yes, I'd like more power please! Holy crap, if you think condo boards are bad, you better hope THIS doesn't happen...

- The Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA) submitted an operational grant application to the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) to provide a more reliable and frequent trolley service from the residential areas of the community to/from its nearby economic and employment centers;

- SPAR has recently partnered with the Local Initiatives Support Corporation (LISC) to receive board training and a grant to employ a Commercial Corridor coordinator and Americorps assistant. LISC and the International Council of Shopping Centers (ICSC) named Springfield one of the top five emerging urban markets nationwide along with Bedford-Stuyvesant in Brooklyn, and communities in Philadelphia, Detroit and Minneapolis (yes, we're getting compared to bed-stuy, brooklyn, and detroit, but naturally, we've still done SUCH a good job) ;

- Springfield has a 27-acre string of parks that adjoin the Historic District and Jacksonville’s central business district. The park system contains Hogan’s Creek, which flows into the St. Johns River, one of 14 American Heritage Rivers, and contains remnants of a stormwater management systems engineered in 1928. In 2006, Springfield hosted the Jacksonville Symphony Orchestra for an outdoor concert and holds 4th of July “throwback” baseball games and other events on an annual basis; (I never knew SPAR paid for the Symphony Orchestra! Man, who knew! Clearly credit where credit is due...)

- The City of Jacksonville has included a one-block area of this park system in its list of ash clean-up sites, as a result of an EPA lawsuit; (yes, because getting sued by the EPA is always something you want to brag about to the President...)

- SPAR has grown the organizational capacity of the neighborhood, which now has a merchants and business association (SAMBA), an animal rescue group (SACARC), a Mommies Group, a Garden Club, the first Girl Scouts of America troop in 50 years, and more; (WOW, talk about credit-taking! Who knew that SPAR started the Garden Club? Especially since the Garden Club was founded in 1922, and SPAR was founded in 1974. Time-travel is definitely one hell of an accomplishment!)

- Springfield is the home of four excellent youth programs/centers including The Bridge (modeling its programs on the Harlem Children’s Zone), The Sanctuary (the subject of NPR spoken-word-artist Al Letson’s “Summer at Sanctuary” â€" stateofthereunion.com), The Boys’ and Girls’ Club, and the Robert F. Kennedy Community Center (municipal);

- Springfield, and more specifically the Klutho Building at 1830 N. Main St., is the home of Operation New Hope, which created the nationally-recognized Ready4Work program for ex-offenders; and, (so wait a second...apparently we don't mind convicted felons running around, but those awful recovering alcoholics and community service orgs that I just don't like, are responsible for ALL the problems around here!)

- Is adjacent to, and has close relationships with, nearby successful urban Jacksonville CDCs, including Ron Pauline’s MetroNorth CDC (metronorthcdc.org) and Paul Tutwiler’s Northwest Jacksonville CDC (northwestjaxcdc.org). (I wonder if they would agree as to how close their relationship is?)

As you can see, SPAR, in partnership with the public and private organizations at the local, state and national levels, has taken a very comprehensive approach to revitalization, because we know we must provide an environment where pride and economic success can be achieved by all of our residents (Yup, that's why we call in bogus complaints and oppose zoning variances when new businesses want to open up in our neighborhood!). Despite our progress, we also face many hurdles ahead: (like we might finally be forced to hold elections!)

- Underfunded Community Development Block Grant (CDBG) needs in Springfield; our neighborhood’s “gateway” is blighted by a 1960s hotel that makes our community look more like Beirut than an urban National Historic District. This hotel at 901 N. Main St. is privately-owned, and is a Superfund site (FLSFN0407139) for which “an eligible response site (ERS) exclusion decision has been made;” (OK, I gotta agree with her there, the Park View is an eyesore and a half)

- Environmental contamination throughout the 27-acre park system that has been known about, but considered too large/costly a problem to fix, since 1993; Hogan’s Creek contamination flowing into the St. Johns River; un-maintained park infrastructure - deteriorated or destroyed stormwater system results in regular flooding and sewer overflows in the community;

- FDOT rejected Springfield’s trolley grant. The JTA has been exploring streetcar, a transit option that is proven to result in economic development, but anticipates transportation funding will be directed toward suburban road development;

- In today’s banking climate, the re-development of Springfield’s commercial corridors is more severely handicapped â€" by lack of available credit and developer incentives â€" than it would have otherwise been by what much of the retailing industry considers “undesirable demographics;”

- Lack of municipal funding for CPTED-based crime prevention measures, trash and litter control, public space maintenance and youth programming in the urban core neighborhoods â€" Jacksonville has been unable to identify adequate funding for programs mandated by ordinance (Zero Tolerance on Litter), nor can our private partners sustain their investment in municipal services in today’s economy; (how much trash could you pick up in all that time you spend feuding with your own neighbors)

- The high concentration of social service organizations in and near our District does not adequately serve a city of Jacksonville’s size, resulting in an overflow of under-served homeless and mentally-challenged persons into the community; and (yes, please refer to those photos of Joe and Gloria included for the CIA's convenience)

- Springfield’s greatest hurdle is the speed at which government, at any level, operates. (Yup, as stated in multiple e-mails to every city official imaginable, we just can't tear these damned historic houses down fast enough!)

Again, Mr. Obama, we are buoyed by your attention to the plight of the urban community and its residents and proponents. I am aware you recently held a “summit” in the capital with 2,000 community organizers â€" I look forward to hearing how their input, as well as that from Adolfo Carrion of the Office of Urban Policy and Melody Barnes of the Domestic Policy Council, will benefit communities nationwide like the Springfield Historic District. (wow, 2,000 different community orgs and SPAR wasn't even invited? But we're doing SUCH a good job...)

Springfield’s location makes it an optimal solution to Jacksonville’s economic and environmental sprawl, and the community supports the Obama-Biden Plan, and its focus on cities. We welcome you back to Springfield anytime you are in Northeast Florida. (nice to know SPAR declares the Springfield community are all Obama-Biden supporters)

Best regards,

Louise DeSpain, Executive Director
Springfield Preservation and Revitalization (SPAR) Council

Well I for one like my cars dirty thank you very much  ::)

Quote from: chris farley on March 12, 2010, 01:39:26 PM
Is there a 12 step program for other very public human foibles?

Funny you'd mention that, as I hear they have some very effective anger management courses now.

Maybe if the landslide of 39 signed up, we wouldn't have so many chair-throwings at public meetings, racist rants, drunken screaming matches, etc., going on every time you turn around. I would be happy to contact Betty Griffin House and see if they can't swing a group-discount for anger management courses for SPAR. Some of them really seem to have some serious issues with uncontrollable rage.

Sorry I am just now geting back to this, I have been enjoying myself in New Orleans. Chris, the information you yourself posted stated that the carwash ceased operation in 93, 17 years ago! I don't care what Mr. Jones or anyone else put INSIDE the building back in 1995, the place has been a blighted mess. How do I know this, I have been living around the corner from the site for 9 years. My good friend has lived behind the site for 12 years. We have seen this "carwash" firsthand all that time while you post letters and second hand gossip as your "facts". We have lived with the real truth for years.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 17, 2010, 12:08:57 PM
Sorry I am just now geting back to this, I have been enjoying myself in New Orleans. Chris, the information you yourself posted stated that the carwash ceased operation in 93, 17 years ago! I don't care what Mr. Jones or anyone else put INSIDE the building back in 1995, the place has been a blighted mess. How do I know this, I have been living around the corner from the site for 9 years. My good friend has lived behind the site for 12 years. We have seen this "carwash" firsthand all that time while you post letters and second hand gossip as your "facts". We have lived with the real truth for years.

So Silas Jones is lying like everybody else who disagrees with you? Did you read his letter?

Because the place was only closed for 2 years before be bought it, began actively renovating it, and then it's been closed for about the last 3 years because your group has been fighting him tooth & nail over whether to allow it to open. So pardon me for taking issue with your cyclical logic of using the length of time it's been closed as an argument against his opening, when your group is actually the reason it remains closed in the first place. Smells like faulty logic to me.

And regarding the rest of your comments, your opinions mean as little to me as my facts apparently mean to you.

Would it still be a "blighted mess" if allowed to begin operation? If Mr. Jones is continually prevented from opening his car wash, what good is that really doing for the property and the neighborhood now? Allowing it to sit there and rot is not doing Springfield any favors; and a group of people trying to stall and cause this person to close his doors through attrition is also not cool.

I was not involved in any effort to stop the carwash until this most recent issue.  So I guess it's my fault that Mr. Jones failed to get his business up and running in over 16 years time? Nice try. If everyone else read the facts you would understand that the carwash was shut down for 17 years. Mr. Jones was granted an exception years ago, before the overlay went into effect but did not open the car wash within the designated time allowed. When he finally decided to open, his exception had expired, the overlay had been put in place, neighbors fought the proposed use, he got mad and sold the building. He recently decided to try and revisit the car wash use. He leased the building back from the present owner and applied for an exception. If an exception is needed for a business to open, neighbors have the right to express their opinion. No one should damn people who actually live in the neighborhood for having a different opinion than they do. I don't go into other's neighborhoods and tell them what they should or shouldn't except near their homes. I wonder if the non residents posting on the Springfield threads take this much interest in their own neighborhoods? In the end a final decision will be made but until then people have the right to voice opposition and go through the process.

Well SG...........I am not a Springfield resident but take exception to just "how much interest I have in my neighborhood"! I pick up trash, join in on the work party's and took it upon myself to climb up and down a 12' ladder to change out all of the light globes in my hood! By my standards.....all of Jacksonville is part of my hood since I have lived here for quite sometime now (24 years now) and consider this part of the world my home! It is to everyone's advantage to clean up (did SPAR commence Main Street cleanup yet?) paint and primp to show pride in one's area of residence. Being only one person, my time is limited but I do make effecient use of it.......so I have to ask ...........just when was the last time you participated in a Main Street cleanup or your block? Judging by what I saw last time I went to Three layers..........not too many have done so or even seem to care enough to do something as mundane as pick up trash!

Ok CS Foltz, this is when I have to call BS on your statements. There are many, many of us who pick up trash if not daily, every other day. And there are also fine citizens of Springfield who feel the need to drop every bit of trash as soon as they are done with it. Lottery tickets, beer & soda cans, chips bags, cigar wrappers, dirty diapers, condom wrappers, used condoms, etc. So perhaps you should refrain from talking about what you don't know.

The last Main Street cleanup was last month and SG as well as her husband were both there, just as she has been for almost every one for as far back as I can remember. AND that was the day after she hosted a very busy First Friday party.

QuoteI wonder if the non residents posting on the Springfield threads take this much interest in their own neighborhoods? In the end a final decision will be made but until then people have the right to voice opposition and go through the process.

If you are referring to me I feel very sorry for you. I live on Ashley St. which is on the borderline to the neighborhood. It would not matter if I were in Mandarin - I have a vested interest in the downtown area and the surrounding neighborhoods.

And of course it is not your fault that he spent the amount of time or delays that he did. Although I find it all to be a very convenient excuse to cover the true reason behind why this is not wanted in the neighborhood. I fail to see how it would not bring anything BUT good to the neighborhood.

Since I do not live in the area but two measly streets away, I guess that means I would still want to go all the way to Ortega to get my car washed, instead of a few streets North and have no say as to what I would like to see happen?

Peel me a grape please.

Braeburn, I surely do hope that you and all of your downtown neighbors are eating at Uptown, drinking at the Cellar at Three Layers, and washing your cars on Main Street in  the very near future.  We need your patronage!

Of course! ...as far as eating and drinking in Springfield - the third one would most certainly be welcome!

Even though "other" people seem to think that downtown residents should not be able to chime in or offer their opinion. I mean really, who cares that someone spends their money in Springfield on local businesses, or volunteers their time helping to improve the community and the neighborhood?

Apparently all of that does not count if you do not LIVE there...

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 17, 2010, 02:12:54 PM
I was not involved in any effort to stop the carwash until this most recent issue.  So I guess it's my fault that Mr. Jones failed to get his business up and running in over 16 years time? Nice try. If everyone else read the facts you would understand that the carwash was shut down for 17 years. Mr. Jones was granted an exception years ago, before the overlay went into effect but did not open the car wash within the designated time allowed. When he finally decided to open, his exception had expired, the overlay had been put in place, neighbors fought the proposed use, he got mad and sold the building. He recently decided to try and revisit the car wash use. He leased the building back from the present owner and applied for an exception. If an exception is needed for a business to open, neighbors have the right to express their opinion. No one should damn people who actually live in the neighborhood for having a different opinion than they do. I don't go into other's neighborhoods and tell them what they should or shouldn't except near their homes. I wonder if the non residents posting on the Springfield threads take this much interest in their own neighborhoods? In the end a final decision will be made but until then people have the right to voice opposition and go through the process.

So what?

The truth is that he did ultimately complete the renovations, did finish installing the new equipment, got his employees, hung his "grand-opening" banners out, and was all set to open for business when your little group of misbehaved misfits sandbagged him with a barrage of bogus CARE complaints, and have been fighting him tooth and nail ever since.

Your argument holds ZERO water, because the FACT of the matter is that the place would have long been open already, if it weren't for the actions of you and your group.

I did no such thing. I had no idea the business was opening and by the looks of it not many people would. Were you here at that time Chris? I was, the place looked like crap and still does. The pictures have been posted of the current state. Would you call that renovated?
Braeburn as we are friends I'm sorry you thought I was aiming this at you. My posts are directed at the failed investors and businessmen and those in the poverty business who like to post negative things about the neighborhood because of sour grapes. They try to keep Springfield down through their words and actions because of some perceived past slights or the preservation of their business model which doesn't mesh with revitalization. Sorry folks, reasonable people get that renovated historic properties, new homes, great neighbors new infrastructure, beautification and cleanliness and cool businesses make for a good neighborhood, not halfway/rooming houses, pawn shops and slumlords. The few posters I'm speaking about love to say that SPAR does not speak for the neighborhood while we are supposed to believe that the vocal 5 of them, all non residents, do.  No matter how badly a few try to keep the neighborhood down to benefit their business model or satisfy their revenge it ain't gonna happen. Drive around, the neighborhood is getting better day by day. Neglected, forclosed properties are being restored in record numbers. Great new residents who are passionate about the neighborhood are replacing those that were part of keeping the neighborhood blighted. The hundreds of great neighbors who don't post, let alone read this site are  happily enjoying the progress in Springfield and quite confident in the future. The train has left the station!

QuoteBraeburn, I surely do hope that you and all of your downtown neighbors are eating at Uptown, drinking at the Cellar at Three Layers, and washing your cars on Main Street in  the very near future.  We need your patronage!

QuoteOf course! ...as far as eating and drinking in Springfield - the third one would most certainly be welcome!

Braeburn, try Joe's Detailing on 5th & Main. That's who I take my cars to, and he always does an "above and beyond" job at a reasonable price.

Joe does an amazing job.  I go there about once a week.............$20 for wash, spray wax, leather conditioner and vaccume..............of course that's for a small 2 seater an SUV would be more....

Continue to try and label or group me Stephen, I couldn't care less what you think. I am a nine year RESIDENT of Springfield. I talk to long time and new residents on a daily basis. I love my neighborhood and show up regularly to meetings, events, cleanups, hearings, parties, you name it. Funny, the only place I have seen you is blogging at City Hall or sucking up the free WI-FI at Three Layers. I wear the contempt I get from you and your cronies like a badge of honor. I'd be concerned if you and yours liked me but I'm sure I won't have to worry about that.

Zoo and Tpot, I usually wash my own car but when I don't have time I go to Joe's also. The guys there are great and they do a real detailed job. Most of my friends that drive nice cars go to him because there is less chance of damage than going through a drive through. When I drove a van I had no problem using the drive through car wash on Beach Blvd. but I have babied my last two girls.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 12:56:05 PM
I am a nine year RESIDENT of Springfield.

oh, are we playing 'i've lived here longer than you have'?  sounds like fun, let me play too:  i've lived in the 32206 zip code for 24 ov my 25 years!  i've attended school at mattie V. rutherford (both before and after), R.L. brown, and matthew gilbert!  i remember when the empty grocery store on 7th was a pic-n-save, and i used to go there frequently!

...do i win?

I do not think she was playing the "I have lived here longer than you have game." I believe it was just an illustration of what she has seen over the last 9 years.

Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on March 19, 2010, 02:25:18 PM

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 12:56:05 PM
I am a nine year RESIDENT of Springfield.

oh, are we playing 'I've lived here longer than you have'?  sounds like fun, let me play too:  I've lived in the 32206 zip code for 24 ov my 25 years!  i've attended school at mattie V. rutherford (both before and after), R.L. brown, and matthew gilbert!  i remember when the empty grocery store on 7th was a pic-n-save, and i used to go there frequently!

...do i win?

Kuroi, It has nothing to do with winning. I don't see anyone trying to label you or group you in with anyone. That is my point. When some don't like our opinions they try to discount them by labeling us, SPAR, developers, LOLAS and the likes. I am not defined by the organizations I belong to. I am a resident and am allowed to have opinions about what happens in the neighborhood I choose to live in. My oldest daughter is your age and she, along with her four siblings attended school in the 32206 zip code also and have been very successful because of it.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 11:43:46 AM
I did no such thing. I had no idea the business was opening and by the looks of it not many people would. Were you here at that time Chris? I was, the place looked like crap and still does. The pictures have been posted of the current state. Would you call that renovated?
Braeburn as we are friends I'm sorry you thought I was aiming this at you. My posts are directed at the failed investors and businessmen and those in the poverty business who like to post negative things about the neighborhood because of sour grapes. They try to keep Springfield down through their words and actions because of some perceived past slights or the preservation of their business model which doesn't mesh with revitalization. Sorry folks, reasonable people get that renovated historic properties, new homes, great neighbors new infrastructure, beautification and cleanliness and cool businesses make for a good neighborhood, not halfway/rooming houses, pawn shops and slumlords. The few posters I'm speaking about love to say that SPAR does not speak for the neighborhood while we are supposed to believe that the vocal 5 of them, all non residents, do.  No matter how badly a few try to keep the neighborhood down to benefit their business model or satisfy their revenge it ain't gonna happen. Drive around, the neighborhood is getting better day by day. Neglected, forclosed properties are being restored in record numbers. Great new residents who are passionate about the neighborhood are replacing those that were part of keeping the neighborhood blighted. The hundreds of great neighbors who don't post, let alone read this site are  happily enjoying the progress in Springfield and quite confident in the future. The train has left the station!

I have done nothing to harm Springfield, unless you count building two beautiful infill houses, restoring 20 plus houses for clients, keeping up my properties, opening businesses, participating in community projects, paying a boat-load of property taxes.

And let us talk about the "illegal" rooming houses, shall we?  How's THAT working for ya? 

We are here.  We are legal.  We are waiting for our apology.

[@ Springfield Girl]
fair enough.  seeïng the 'nine-year resident' bit right at the beginning ov the post may've triggered my defences.  on the other hand, saying you're not defined by the organisations you belong to is a bit ridiculous--while they certainly don't define every aspect ov your personality, you wouldn't belong to them if you didn't agree with/share their goals.  for example, if i found out someöne was a member ov the KKK, i wouldn't presume to know their favourite car and ice cream flavour, but i'd have a pretty good idea where they stood on race relations.

...and just for the record, I have never gone to a community meeting, drunk, and threatened anyone's testicles...

or yelled out "PUNCH HIM IN THE FACE, PUNCH HIM IN THE FACE"

Just how would this behavior fit into anyone's "business model?"  (Hate to much mention it, but it sort of screws with the whole Mayberry RFD persona, btw).

Well if you didn't see it happen, I wouldn't be repeating gossip. I have spoken with a neighbor who is very sweet and never says a bad word about anyone. This person was a witness to the actions at the WC and has totally discounted the rumor that ladies were drunk. It has gotten a lot of milage from Stephen when he wasn't there. I thought it very funny that when confronted, the members of MJ called Stephen to run up to Three Layers to defend them?, or propagandize everything on the forum. The boards have become more like the National Enquirer or Jerry Springer than any form of constructive conversation. 

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 05:09:01 PM
Well if you didn't see it happen, I wouldn't be repeating gossip. I have spoken with a neighbor who is very sweet and never says a bad word about anyone. This person was a witness to the actions at the WC and has totally discounted the rumor that ladies were drunk. It has gotten a lot of milage from Stephen when he wasn't there. I thought it very funny that when confronted, the members of MJ called Stephen to run up to Three Layers to defend them?, or propagandize everything on the forum. The boards have become more like the National Enquirer or Jerry Springer than any form of constructive conversation. 

too funny.  if i were the one making the huge rude episode, i would hope someone was able to blame it on the booze and not think i was a baseline crazyassrude behach

Quote from: cindi on March 19, 2010, 05:14:06 PM

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 05:09:01 PM
Well if you didn't see it happen, I wouldn't be repeating gossip. I have spoken with a neighbor who is very sweet and never says a bad word about anyone. This person was a witness to the actions at the WC and has totally discounted the rumor that ladies were drunk. It has gotten a lot of milage from Stephen when he wasn't there. I thought it very funny that when confronted, the members of MJ called Stephen to run up to Three Layers to defend them?, or propagandize everything on the forum. The boards have become more like the National Enquirer or Jerry Springer than any form of constructive conversation. 

too funny.  if i were the one making the huge rude episode, i would hope someone was able to blame it on the booze and not think i was a baseline crazyassrude behach

:D  my feelings exactly.

QuoteSpringfieldgirl: They try to keep Springfield down through their words and actions because of some perceived past slights or the preservation of their business model which doesn't mesh with revitalization. Sorry folks, reasonable people get that renovated historic properties, new homes, great neighbors new infrastructure, beautification and cleanliness and cool businesses make for a good neighborhood, not halfway/rooming houses, pawn shops and slumlords. The few posters I'm speaking about love to say that SPAR does not speak for the neighborhood while we are supposed to believe that the vocal 5 of them, all non residents, do. No matter how badly a few try to keep the neighborhood down to benefit their business model or satisfy their revenge it ain't gonna happen.

Gee, I thought that by keeping the houses properly maintained, keeping them full of hard working Springfield residents who are known as good neighbors, (by their actual neighbors, not someone like you who lives like, across town) and bringing businesses to Springfield that all can use is a good thing to help with the betterment of the community.  Odd that you would think otherwise.

Oh, about that non-resident thing.  Need we remind you once again that we are Springfield property owners and business owners and have as much right and concern over what happens in Springfield as do little old you?  And that, hey, even Mack is now an absentee owner.  Did you tell him he has no right to say anything about Springfield yet?

I keep hearing this “they want to keep Springfield down” due to us being, what, greedy?  Because by having a poorer Springfield, we can get richer? I have to ask, what in the world are you smoking? Or Drinking, as I guess that is the drug of choice among the SPAR Council Like Thinkers crowd.  I can’t speak for everyone, but our business model helps to brings equal treatment of individuals and businesses to Springfield. Can SPAR Council truly say that?

Once again, Springfield Girl, you have proven us right.  You and your like minded SPAR Council friends really have no clue as to what is best for Springfield.  If you had your way, every business you do not like would be gone, every resident who does not meet your standards would be gone.  And then eventually, as no one can stand up very long being held to the standards to which Louise and Company claims to subscribe but do not follow themselves, Springfield would be a ghost town of expensive and empty houses and commercial buildings rather than the richly diverse urban community most really want.   

You are also doing your best to take the spot light off of the bad behavior of  Louise and Company.  Won’t help.  They will just do it again. But keep on posting, I like it when the other side helps my cause. By the way, my agenda is to be left alone with my legal businesses, be treated  fairly and in the same manor people wish to be treated by me and to help Springfield keep moving forward.  Hard to do the latter when we are forced to constantly defend ourselves from the likes of Louise and Company and it must be hard for SPAR Council to fight so many losing battles on so many different fronts as well.  It does seem in the end it is the entire community that loses out.  And for what?  A petty vendetta on Louise and Company’s part?

And we are still waiting for that apology. 

QuoteSpringfieldgirl: Well if you didn't see it happen, I wouldn't be repeating gossip. I have spoken with a neighbor who is very sweet and never says a bad word about anyone. This person was a witness to the actions at the WC and has totally discounted the rumor that ladies were drunk. It has gotten a lot of milage from Stephen when he wasn't there. I thought it very funny that when confronted, the members of MJ called Stephen to run up to Three Layers to defend them?, or propagandize everything on the forum. The boards have become more like the National Enquirer or Jerry Springer than any form of constructive conversation.

And perhaps, now, you owe one to the owners of MJ as they were indeed there and them calling Stephen back was for him to see it for himself. These events did indeed occur and now, what, you are trying to say Louise and the rest were not drunk?  OK, well, actually, that would be even better.  If they were drunk, at least they had a small, a very small, but still a small excuse.  If they were not drunk, hey, all bets are off.  They were just behaving that was because they wanted to and that is the way they really are?  Perhaps anger management classes are in order.

Why would you think it odd that the members of the board of MJ contacted another member of the board, during an attack of the board?

Who else should they have called, the Women's Club?  

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 05:09:01 PM
Well if you didn't see it happen, I wouldn't be repeating gossip. I have spoken with a neighbor who is very sweet and never says a bad word about anyone. This person was a witness to the actions at the WC and has totally discounted the rumor that ladies were drunk. It has gotten a lot of milage from Stephen when he wasn't there. I thought it very funny that when confronted, the members of MJ called Stephen to run up to Three Layers to defend them?, or propagandize everything on the forum. The boards have become more like the National Enquirer or Jerry Springer than any form of constructive conversation.  

Talk about gossip.  Pot meet kettle.  No MJ member called Stephen.  We all were telling the little rowdy group what they could go do with themselves and how to properly address a disagreement in an adult manner.  Which is a shame since the majority of us are young enough to be their grandchildren.

QuoteTalk about gossip.  Pot meet kettle.  No MJ member called Stephen.  We all were telling the little rowdy group what they could go do with themselves and how to properly address a disagreement in an adult manner.  Which is a shame since the majority of us are young enough to be their grandchildren.

freakin' hilarious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH6LjwIRAQ4

Louise actually asked me for Stephens phone number because she "would love to speak with him". I ignored her ridiculous request. No one on the MJ board called him, but obviously word travels fast with the internet and all.

In fact, the whole city knows about it now.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 12:56:05 PM
Funny, the only place I have seen you is blogging at City Hall or sucking up the free WI-FI at Three Layers.

Let's see, in the past couple of weeks, I've seen Stephen walk down Main Street with Council Members (actually brought Glorious Johnson to the thrift store -- she liked it btw, said she loves thrift stores and there are really cool ones in Harlem.)  He's interview the mayor, the head of the city's general counsel, contacted artists, attended a homeless coalition meeting, walked Hogan's Creek, discovered buried graveyards...just to name a few.

geez.

Actually, I try to always give people the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that someone was drunk because they were upset. I surely wouldn't take the excited words of teenagers as the gospel. I am very passionate and tend to get a little excited myself so I can relate. When were these folks supposed to get drunk? The story that has been relayed was that they showed up to the WC meeting but were denied entrance. They then retired to Three Layers where they allegedly confronted the MJ crew. So when did this drinking occur. I wasn't there so I'm not sure who was included in this group but if it's the people I assume, I definitely question the drunken accusation. I have been involved in many a heated discussion but that doesn't equal being drunk. I'm glad I wasn't there because I have a lot of pent up frustration over many of the out of context posts and ridiculous threads that I may have been guilty of a little bad behavior myself. Never a good thing but understandable when people feel they have been treated unfairly repeatedly. I usually listen to both sides and figure the real truth lies somewhere in the middle.

LOL, Springfield Girl, you can attempt to spin this in a positive way for that wild group but its not going down like that.  This belligerent behavior was witnessed by several people at two different locations within an hour of each other.  If you want to blame MJ for them not being about to control themselves, then so be it.  However, that doesn't change the fact that the police were called to the Women's Club and that their meeting had to be shut down because of this group.

I wasn't at the Women's Club but based on the accounts of several people who have been sending PMs, text messages, emails and myself being at Three Layers, I believe you are spinning a losing battle on this one. There was a wine bar/coffeehouse full of people and a club (two different locations) reporting the same belligerent behavior.  Where there's smoke, there's fire.

As for the drunk issue, being in a wine bar with some acting weird, out of day time character and holding beverages would give others that impression.  However, without a breathalyzer test I would not know for sure.  Instead words like acting in a deranged, demented, unusual or bizarre manner would be a more accurate description. IMO, drunk would be a term that would give someone the benefit of the doubt since it was a wine bar and all.  In any event, this group has already lost its credibility and if they don't change the way they carry themselves and treat others, things will get worse for them.

With that said, this is the thread about the car wash.  Let's get it back and keep it on topic.  If someone has an issue with the events of Tuesday night, here is a link to the correct thread for that nonsense: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,7632.msg139309/topicseen.html#new

Any additional out of subject post in this thread will be subject to deletion.  Thanks for your cooperation.

My apologies for not getting to this sooner, I have been pretty busy the past few days.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 11:43:46 AM
I did no such thing.

Yes you did. So you’re saying you aren’t one of the supporters of the current zoning appeal?

It’s a “yes” or “no” answer…

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 11:43:46 AM
Were you here at that time Chris?

Yup. I’ve been here a decade, and my property ownership in Springfield pre-dated yours.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 11:43:46 AM
I was, the place looked like crap and still does. The pictures have been posted of the current state.

With all due respect much of Springfield looks like crap, especially the commercial properties. Silas Jones is actually trying to fix the place up and get it going, and you people are fighting him tooth and nail. And your reason for not wanting him to fix a place up and open a business is, apparently, that it looks like crap? You don’t think your preventing him from opening has anything to do with that?

So if you won't allow anyone to fix anything up without harassing and sandbagging them, then how exactly do you expect these commercial properties to ever become viable again? Or is it that you just want to pick and choose who gets allowed to open what? I suspect the latter.

Again, it seems like we're back to the cyclical logic of arguing that simply because it's been closed, it shouldn't be allowed to be open. I find that appalling, when your group is the REASON it's not already open. That is fallacious logic.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 11:43:46 AM
My posts are directed at the failed investors and businessmen and those in the poverty business who like to post negative things about the neighborhood because of sour grapes.

Hmmm...

So I'm guessing I must be the "failed investor," Stephen must be the "failed businessman," and Joe and Gloria must be in the "poverty business." Or maybe I'm in the latter category, who knows. Whichever way, let's address this, shall we?

A: I got out of real estate to go back to school and become a lawyer. In the time since I left that business, I have earned three degrees including my J.D., while property values have collapsed like an overcooked soufflé. So now I'm a failure, according to some silly real estate agent? Don’t you have some cookies to go bake for an open house or something?

B: Stephen's lease got terminated because his landlord sold the building out from under him to the Dalton Agency, and he got a nice check for his troubles. His business didn't fail, he just lost his space when the landlord sold the building. And you’re actually posting on another business in which he has a part interest as we speak, to tell him what a failed businessman he is? You SPARbarians never do seem to understand the value of irony.

C: Sorry you view helping those in need as being the "poverty business". Has it never dawned on you that people may have motivations other than money for doing something? The people you are referring to are compelled by motives other than money, and feel they are doing good through their actions. I happen to agree with them. I'm sorry that your Dickensian world view leaves no room for this, and if that is reflective of your normal level of cynicism then your life must not be a very happy place.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 11:43:46 AM
They try to keep Springfield down through their words and actions because of some perceived past slights or the preservation of their business model which doesn't mesh with revitalization.

There is no “perceived” anything. Your wretched little group has made life miserable for countless investors and business owners who didn’t properly kiss your backsides before entering the neighborhood. SPAR’s bogus C.A.R.E. complaint call-in campaigns are legendary, and meanwhile your E.D. got caught red-handed trying to make it easier to demolish historic properties. Meanwhile, your group has supported a series of spectacular flops, e.g. Craig Van Horn.

In my view, the main thing keeping Springfield down has actually been SPAR. Your little group has opposed multiple different attempts to open new businesses in the neighborhood, and has managed to be the least effective historic preservation group in history. Literally 1/3'rd of the neighborhood has been demolished, and no, I don’t consider the 60 or so SRG houses to be any real replacement for what has been lost. Your group has utterly failed in its mandate, has actively opposed those engaged in trying to open new businesses, and has generally set the place back light-years.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 11:43:46 AM
cool businesses make for a good neighborhood

And why are you opposing the car wash again?

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 11:43:46 AM
The few posters I'm speaking about love to say that SPAR does not speak for the neighborhood

That’s because SPAR in fact does not speak for the neighborhood. In a neighborhood of 3,000 residents, your group claims a membership of less than 150, and we have only been able to actually verify 39 out of the claimed <150. So in what possible sense do you somehow represent the neighborhood?

ROFL, I have more people over for house parties.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 11:43:46 AM
No matter how badly a few try to keep the neighborhood down to benefit their business model or satisfy their revenge it ain't gonna happen.

Nobody is fighting against Springfield, and nobody is trying to keep Springfield down. It’s SPAR and its misbehaved members that everyone has a problem with. Let’s not confuse the issues.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 11:43:46 AM
Drive around, the neighborhood is getting better day by day.

Yes, despite your best efforts, the place has actually improved. But if anyone really wants to see just how effective SPAR has been, how about driving around and counting up all the vacant lots?

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 19, 2010, 11:43:46 AM
The hundreds of great neighbors who don't post, let alone read this site are  happily enjoying the progress in Springfield and quite confident in the future. The train has left the station!

I agree, nobody is arguing that Springfield has made progress. It’s the efforts to halt portions of that progress that I don’t understand. To wit; why oppose the car wash?

For the same reason RAP opposed a car wash in their district and the same reason the zoning department, Historic Planning Staff and Commision oppose the exception.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on March 20, 2010, 12:07:57 PM
For the same reason RAP opposed a car wash in their district and the same reason the zoning department, Historic Planning Staff and Commision oppose the exception.

I guess you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Only thing to do now is wait and see what happens with the appeal I guess.

So SPAR member complaints caused RAP to oppose a car wash in their district?

Even though I don't agree with the position against the car wash, the opposition does have a right to oppose.  By the same token, those in favor have every right to do what they can to make sure things end up on the side of another vacant Main Street lot becoming productive.  So lets see this thing run its course, keep everything out in the open, live blog the actual appeal and let the chips fall where they may.  My guess is that this project won't be the last to go through this issue.  However, if there is a serious attempt to keep all acts out in the open and exposed, parties who tend to do shady things will eventually scurry like cockroaches when the lights come on.  On the other hand, anyone who goes by the motto of treating everyone like they would like to see themselves treated shouldn't mind a little extra scrutiny.

I couldn't help but notice these two places in the St. Nicholas Town Center, while collecting images this morning.  I wonder if the residents in that community believe they are negatives?

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Saint-Nicholas/P1320389/814696384_khUyB-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Saint-Nicholas/P1320387/814696318_oudVD-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Saint-Nicholas/P1320417/814697179_rALjk-M.jpg)

hamsterdam - we're not totally useless, we serve as a bad example. 

I am still confused.............SPAR (Springfield Preservation and Restoration? Right?) should not be involved in business decisions either for or against.......residents should have that option, right or wrong! I would suggest SPAR Headquarters is in direct violation of its mandate since that bldg looks like an apartment and not a very nice one...........why does it not reflect something historic or preserved?

Quote from: cindi on March 20, 2010, 10:12:53 PM
hamsterdam - we're not totally useless, we serve as a bad example. 

Truer words have never been said.

Quote from: CS Foltz on March 21, 2010, 07:33:23 AM
I am still confused.............SPAR (Springfield Preservation and Restoration? Right?) should not be involved in business decisions either for or against.......residents should have that option, right or wrong! I would suggest SPAR Headquarters is in direct violation of its mandate since that bldg looks like an apartment and not a very nice one...........why does it not reflect something historic or preserved?

SPAR stands for Springfield Preservation and Revitalization, I believe.

LOL - yes, the SPAR building needs some SERIOUS revitalization!!!!

I believe it changed from the original  "Restoration" to "Revitalization" in 2003.

Quote from: sheclown on March 21, 2010, 10:09:09 AM
I believe it changed from the original  "Restoration" to "Revitalization" in 2003.

Probably about the same time the developer donations started rolling in...hmmm...imagine that.

Ahh, not to sweat the details, but SPAR has not existed since 2002.  It was merged with HSCC and became SPAR Council.  The name change was done for a reason, one of which was that SPAR was not all that well thought of, especially by the city.  And mostly over the type of shenanigans we have seen the last few years. 

HSCC was Historic Springfield Community Council, formed after one of the studies that helped Springfield make it to Historic District status and SPAR, which was Springfield Preservation And Restoration, and was the older of the two organizations officially listed as being formed in October of 1977.  HSCC is listed as being formed September of 1986 and dissolved in September of 2003.

SPAR’s basic corporation paperwork was used as it was easier to transform into the new organization.  The name was changed to SPAR Council, which indeed does stand for Springfield Preservation And Revitalization Council.  So, as of July 15th,  2002, there was no longer a SPAR nor a HSCC. 

I know I am one of the only ones that cares, but there is a reason I have always tried to say SPAR Council rather than just SPAR.  It does indeed go back to the city and their opinion of SPAR at the time. And the fact that many feared the new organization would become nothing but SPAR.  I guess I always kept hoping they were wrong.  Too bad they were right.

ChrisUFGator, the real stuff didn’t start until after the merger.  Prior to that, the big fish was Michael Troutman.  Louise was certainly at the lead during the merger and took total control after.  Her first act was to appoint board members illegally and then, when I pointed out she did not have that right, she worked around me and more or less did it anyway.  By 2003, the board had several SRG types on board.  The security fund started and so did the rein of SRG, Mack and Jack Meeks.   

Much thanks for the information strider..........SPAR Council it is! Either way, I am waiting to see just what comes out of Headquarters, so I guess time will tell! Hope it is forward thinking and progressive for all!

The date for the car wash appeal is rapidly approaching.  Should you wish to have your voice heard, it is easy enough to email LUZ committee members.  Be clear in your wording.  If you are for the appeal, that means you are against the car wash -- and visa versa.  It is probably easiest to just state your position on the car wash, your connection to the neighborhood, and your reasoning behind your position.  

LUZ(Land Use and Zoning) Members:

Ray Holt - Chair                   Holt@coj.net
Warren Jones - Vice Chair     WAJones@coj.net
Reginald Brown                    RBrown@coj.net
Daniel Davis                        DDavis@coj.net
Johnny Gaffney                   Gaffney@coj.net
Stephen Joost                    Joost@coj.net
Don Redman                       Redman@coj.net

Obviously, Dr. Gaffney is going to be looked to by the other committee members for leadership in this matter, so an email to his office is probably the most important.

There is plenty of info in this thread pro and con for those who need review.

Any news on the car wash appeal?  Is it still scheduled for Tuesday?

  2010-167
   
RESO-Q re Appeal of Final Order Issued by Planning Comm re Zoning Exception Appl E-09-54 to 1424 Main Street, LLC, Apv a Car Washer on Propty at 25 W. 4th St & Portion of 1424 Main St; Adopt Recommended Findings & Conclusions of the LUZ Committee. (Reingold) (LUZ)

LUZ PH - 4/6/10

1. 2/23/2010 CO  Introduced: LUZ
    3/2/2010 LUZ Read 2nd & Rerefer
2. 3/9/2010 CO Read 2nd & Rereferred; LUZ

Introduced by the Land Use and Zoning Committee:


RESOLUTION 2010-167

A RESOLUTION CONCERNING THE APPEAL OF A FINAL ORDER ISSUED BY THE PLANNING COMMISSION REGARDING ZONING EXCEPTION APPLICATION E-09-54 TO 1424 MAIN STREET, LLC, APPPROVING A CAR WASHER ON PROPERTY LOCATED AT 25 WEST 4TH STREET AND A PORTION OF 1424 MAIN STREET, PURSUANT TO SECTION 656.141, ORDINANCE CODE; ADOPTING RECOMMENDED FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS OF THE LAND USE AND ZONING COMMITTEE; PROVIDING AN EFFECTIVE DATE.

   WHEREAS, 1424 Main Street, LLC, applied to the Planning Commission for a Zoning Exception (Application E-09-54) to permit a car washer on property located at 25 West 4th Street and a portion of or 1424 Main Street in CCG-S (Commercial Community/General-S) Zoning District; and
   WHEREAS, the Planning Commission approved Application E-09-54 by Final Order dated January 14, 2010; and
   WHEREAS, pursuant to Section 656.141, Ordinance Code, Dane Baird, on behalf of appellants, filed a notice of appeal; and
   WHEREAS, such appeal was timely filed and the appellant has standing to appeal; now therefore
   BE IT RESOLVED by the Council of the City of Jacksonville:
   Section 1.      Adoption of recommended findings and conclusions.   The Council has reviewed the record of proceedings regarding Zoning Exception Application E-09-54, which is on file in the City Council Legislative Services Division and the Planning and Development Department, and has considered the recommended findings and conclusions of the Land Use and Zoning Committee.  The recommended findings and conclusions of the Land Use and Zoning Committee are hereby adopted and shall become effective immediately.  This resolution is the final action of the Council.
   Section 2.      Effective Date.      The adoption of this resolution shall be deemed to constitute a quasi-judicial action of the City Council and shall become effective upon signature by the Council President and Council Secretary.

Form Approved:

     /s/  Dylan T. Reingold___________
Office of General Counsel
Legislation Prepared by Dylan T. Reingold
G:\shared\LEGIS.CC\2010\res\LAND USE GENERAL\E-09-54.doc

Link for the live hearing in case you can't make it there in person.
http://media.coj.net/COJCouncil

Love the video Alex. So does this mean the car wash has been approved and that's it for the appeal?

Quote from: Springfielder on April 06, 2010, 04:37:48 PM
Love the video Alex. So does this mean the car wash has been approved and that's it for the appeal?

I think they just prepared what the final document would look like if the recommendation of the commission is followed. But I don't know for sure.

The appeal was denied which means the exception is approved.

Correction: Apparently it's not final yet. The recommendation of the Commission (which is to deny the appeal) will now be brought to the full council to vote on.

QuoteSec. 656.142. Appellate procedure.

(d) The resolution shall be referred to the appropriate committee of Council, which shall conduct a de novo public hearing as soon thereafter as reasonably practicable. The committee of reference shall prepare a proposed recommended written order for consideration by the Council.

Sec. 656.143. Scope of review.
(a) The Council's review shall be a de novo review of the record and applicable law; provided, however, any council member may at any time view the property and consider that view.
(b) The record shall include all evidence and testimony presented to the Commission or Downtown Development Review Board as well as any evidence presented to the appropriate committee of Council.

Sec. 656.145. Decision of the Council and final action.

(b) When the Council acts on a contested decision pertaining to a final action of the Commission or Downtown Development Review Board, Council action shall be deemed to be the final action of the City of Jacksonville as of the effective date of the resolution and shall be subjected to no further review under this Code.

Welcome to the neighborhood Mr. Jones.

I can't imagine that the full council would not approve it.

I agree.  It's over.

Sucks that we have to go through all that crap.. If we keep making it so hard for businesses to open up here, no one's gonna want to open up here.. Congratulations Mr.Jones!! I hope there's no hard feelings..

Quote from: soxfan on April 07, 2010, 12:34:09 PM
Sucks that we have to go through all that crap.. If we keep making it so hard for businesses to open up here, no one's gonna want to open up here.. Congratulations Mr.Jones!! I hope there's no hard feelings..

Yup. Springfield already has a reputation for running off new businesses, this debacle didn't help.

Anyone care to make a wager than someone else,connected with the SPAR Council, will file an appeal on the appeal?

Quote from: CS Foltz on April 07, 2010, 02:28:40 PM
Anyone care to make a wager than someone else,connected with the SPAR Council, will file an appeal on the appeal?

Well...some recent developments appear to indicate that many people who were associated with SPAR council will be filing appeals...just not of the car wash type, LOL!

QuoteIf they are then bye bye Joe. Parties over. The Lord giveth and the Lors taketh away. Be patient. This too shall pass.

This part freaks me out.  That's my Joe they are talking about.

Quote from: sheclown on April 20, 2010, 10:09:17 PM

QuoteIf they are then bye bye Joe. Parties over. The Lord giveth and the Lors taketh away. Be patient. This too shall pass.

This part freaks me out.  That's my Joe they are talking about.

G, was there REALLY any doubt that they were this crazy?

I mean...it's always surprising to see it in writing like that, but there was no question of the mindset of the mini-hitlers at SPAR. And, sadly, it doesn't look like much is changing.

there is no date, who wrote it or who it was sent to.  soooooo.........

sorry, still don't understand.  is this an actual email that was sent to someone (gaffney), and if so who? or is it just a collection of emails put together over time?

ahh, thanks for clarifying. 

I don't get the point of this persons email...what is it they hope to gain? And if there's a new one each day, what is their goal? It's not like Gaffney can do much of anything about the issues this person mentions...what a strange email indeed

Clearly, it isn't a revitalized Main Street that they are spending their energies on.  The group isn't demanding the protection of historic structures.   Nor is it finding a mayor who will spear-head an urban core renaissance.

Rather, this is an attempt to silence those who have stood up against the policies of SPAR for a decade.

Joe has been critical about neighborhood politics for ten years.  He loudly yelled "foul" when the board elections were canceled.  He has repeatedly brought up the bylaw issues, historic preservation issues and the overlay problems.  

He stood before city council and asked that Silas Jones be given his fair chance.

This is more about silencing Joe than anything else.

The city has listened to SPAR board and investigated.  The state has investigated.  We are found in compliance with every conceivable ordinance and department, local and state.  

SPAR board is not satisfied.

The car was was voted on, appealed and voted on again.

SPAR board is not satisfed.

They want Joe.  It is personal.

QuoteWant us to learn to live together in harmony. That's not gonna happen

This is from the neighborhood leaders.  

Wrong answer...

We need to learn to live together in harmony.

If this email was generated by a member of the spar board, then it clearly shows how low the organization has fallen. I was always under the impression that this was supposed to be an organization for the community as a whole, which it hasn't been as long as I've lived here.

I also don't understand the rationale behind making issues personal. It's long past time to stop the foolishness and get back to what the organization is supposed to be doing; working for the community, not against it.

In the immortal words of David Cassidy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLWIg68mXsk&feature=related

This e-mail is certainly from a SPAR Council board member.  As Stephen said, there are gross errors in it's "facts".  The sentiments expressed in this e-mail, as well as the others that have been sent recently should concern all of us.  They express disgust for the truth on the part of the writers, they show the arrogance of some of the SPAR Council board members and they illustrate the low opinion and lack of concern they have for their "constituents", the residents of Springfield.

These few people, who for the most part have been appointed rather than elected or are even on the board illegally, have made me their poster child for what is wrong with Springfield.  They need an actual enemy, one they hope to turn the rest of the residents against.  They need to be able to say “it’s his fault, blame him for…“ enter whatever ailment that is important to you, be it crime, be it illegal activity or be it housing values.   It is also one of deflection.  If a person you support is at least partially to blame, help him put that evil eye on someone else.   In a way, it is flattering to have been credited with this much power. The reality, of course, as reasonable people know, is much different.

The current leadership within SPAR Council believes that only their opinion and their somewhat twisted vision of Springfield’s future is the one that matters.  It should be obvious to all from some of the recent events that the majority of the residents have a different and more inclusive vision.  The city itself seems to be siding with the residents, not SPAR Council.  And so, the city gets attacked as well.  The Woman’s Club didn’t agree with SPAR Council‘s leadership, so they get attacked.  And need we even mention this very site and it’s leaders?

There are indeed a few good people still involved with SPAR Council.  It is perhaps time for them to stop this nonsense.  It can be done by one person who truly cares.  Are you that person?  Contact us and we can talk. It is what the community needs and deserves.  

Stephen, who wrote the email?
I do not know how to access information for the Sunshine Law.
Please type the name of the person or if you would kindly provide directions as to how to access emails to public folks,as I have NO clue how to, I will look myself.
I would prefer to have all of the facts. 
Thanks.

you can find instructions here: http://www.coj.net/City+Council/ViewEmail.htm

or for the Major and staff: http://www.coj.net/Mayor/View+E-mail.htm

Quote from: movedsouth on April 21, 2010, 03:33:57 PM
you can find instructions here: http://www.coj.net/City+Council/ViewEmail.htm

or for the Major and staff: http://www.coj.net/Mayor/View+E-mail.htm

Lawsy...after a few minutes perusing this, I'm amazed any of our city officials get anything done at all!

Quote from: Springfielder on April 21, 2010, 05:31:20 AM
I don't get the point of this persons email...what is it they hope to gain? And if there's a new one each day, what is their goal? It's not like Gaffney can do much of anything about the issues this person mentions...what a strange email indeed

From what I've been told, it is an orchestrated effort by a few board members; however, what they hope to accomplish from this, is a mystery.  I don't believe that all of SPAR board feels this way.  Unfortunately, all may be painted with this crazy brush unless they do something soon.

Looking over some of these emails....I have one word for this strange effort.....twisted! It's sad to read through these letters and see all of the grammatical errors, do these people know what spell check is? If I were a member of spar, (of which I'm happy to have allowed my membership to expire), I'd be mortified to have these people representing me as their self-professed 'leaders of the community.' If these are the leaders...oh my....

It is a tough time for many people right now.  Our property values are dropping.  Businesses are closing all around (even the tax prep places may be moving out -- what will that do to Main Street?) Fear has grown so large and powerful you can almost watch it walking down the street. 

Those lucky enough to still have their jobs wake up at 3 am and play out worst case scenarios.

This American Dream we counted on, depended on, is grinning like a Stephen King movie poster.

I never remember a time when a qualified person couldn't find work.  When someone with decent credit couldn't get a mortgage.  And yet, we find ourselves here right now.

We have to be good to one another.  We need to strive for harmony.  Let the war continue when times improve, if it must, but now is not that time.

Let's do good stuff.  Like the community garden, like the random acts of beauty, like the community trash clean up days.  Let's make this mayoral race count like none before.  Let's work toward a better downtown while we are at loose ends, personally.

Let's stop spiraling down and start building up.

Quote from: sheclown on April 22, 2010, 08:24:54 AM
Let's do good stuff.  Like the community garden, like the random acts of beauty, like the community trash clean up days.  Let's make this mayoral race count like none before.  Let's work toward a better downtown while we are at loose ends, personally.

or attend SACARCs The Pack Social tonight, Thursday, 4/22/10 at Three Layers from 6-8 p.m. and help support the vet and continued care of Springfield's rescued animals.

^^Thanks for the plug, ionia!

^  AMEN! 

I am about ready to contact this owner to recruit the hottest females on my cellphone list to wear nothing but bikinis and get all sudsy-dudsy to promote the opening of this place! :)

Hell, it's the least that could be done for all the trouble.

You know, he's gotta sit back and wonder...how he got over....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l49N8U3d0Bw&playnext_from=TL&videos=LH0rsQjX6qI

LOL you should recruit the He Ho's from 8th & Perry..............

Ok, so some quick information...

It's obvious Silas doesn't want the car wash to look like it was designed...and seemed a little surprised people didn't like the color. Wow.

I've told him that he has to meet the conditions of the approval, that I've talked with planning because of all of the questions I've gotten in the last couple days, and they've reinforced that he will not be able to open up until he has a COA and the car wash looks like the approved design.

I reiterated a couple times that he was wasting money painting, and doing work that wasn't part of the approved design, especially since he hasn't even applied for a COA.  He was generally non-responsive, except with the occasional "oookay"

So, that's all I have at the moment.

Well, I've had a few calls...

and there are conditions that have to met for it to actually open up, no matter what else is going on in the neighborhood.  Cleaning it up and painting it a shade of magenta isn't going to get it open...and that's not coming from SPAR, me, Lisa, or anyone in the neighborhood, its coming from the city.

I'm not worked up about it, but I felt Silas should know he was more than likely throwing away money if he's planning on trying to open the car wash without it looking anything like it was approved and since it was obviously a big topic here in the forums for so long, and we were a part of it, that I should give a small update.

Are their bigger issues? Absolutley. ;)

Well it's definitely funny that after 28 pages of debate, the demonized "sparbarians" seem like they could be proven right. Noise or no noise, the real root of the debate was whether an auto oriented business is appropriate for main street or whether it will be too trashy. As of right now, we have a giant magenta exclamation point proving the winner of that debate.

Hopefully the owner will start acting in good faith, and we'll get to see if a properly designed auto oriented business can work in the neighborhood.

Stephen:

Here's where I think you are wrong.  Any property owner must follow the conditions approved by Council.  Jason is right in that Silas is wasting his time and money.  I have no skin in this game.  But it appears as if Silas has no intention of complying--at least at this point.  

Quote from: Joe on July 08, 2010, 09:45:09 AM
Well it's definitely funny that after 28 pages of debate, the demonized "sparbarians" seem like they could be proven right. Noise or no noise, the real root of the debate was whether an auto oriented business is appropriate for main street or whether it will be too trashy. As of right now, we have a giant magenta exclamation point proving the winner of that debate.

Hopefully the owner will start acting in good faith, and we'll get to see if a properly designed auto oriented business can work in the neighborhood.

I disagree on your first point.  Imo, it could be pink with purple poka dots and being a viable open business would be better than the vacant blight that was sitting there before.  Regardless of wall color, its an appropriate business for a commercial corridor like Main Street.  With that said, I do agree that the owner should abide by the aesthetic conditions that were agreed upon by all parties.

The Garnet would not have been my choice, but, as long as he does not trim it out in gold, I'm ok with it   ;D

I didn't even notice the new paint when I drove past on my way home yesterday.  I took a look this morninf on my way to work and I don't see the fuss about the color. 

It is about the same as Waffa and Mikes.  Or are we not supposed to like that color either???

I do not care what color it is but after all the fuss use the approved design.

Quote from: danno on July 08, 2010, 11:51:19 AM
I didn't even notice the new paint when I drove past on my way home yesterday.  I took a look this morninf on my way to work and I don't see the fuss about the color.  

It is about the same as Waffa and Mikes.  Or are we not supposed to like that color either???

You're not supposed to like anything the SPARbarians don't approve of...

I honestly can't understand why ANYONE is listening to them at this stage. They have lost all credibility.

Quote from: JeffreyS on July 08, 2010, 11:58:14 AM
I do not care what color it is but after all the fuss use the approved design.

Maybe it is primer......

Just more than a little sick of finger pointing at SPAR all the time.  I feel I'm a reasonable voice, and I'm a SPAR member.  (I even vote!) Give it a rest.

I think a car wash in a historic district should blend in and not be red.  I think any business that opens in a historic district should try to blend into the existing aesthetic of the neighborhood as much as possible.

How about you stop throwing barbs at SPAR now, and realize that the aesthetic improvements were something Silas agreed to and should abide by?  They were the conditions upon which he would be allowed to re-open the car wash, and he agreed to them.

i'm really sick ov people always goïng on about how everything should 'blend in'.  the houses you claim to love so much were not designed to blend in--they were designed to stand out.  what makes your insistence that things should blend in even more ridiculous is the double standard you've shown in allowing companies like SRG to waltz in and build a bunch ov sub-par crap that supposedly blends in, but looks like dog turds warmed over to anyöne with any familiarity with victorian architecture.

if you want everything to look the same, and you want to be able to enforce it, move into a gated community with an HOA, and leave those ov us who don't think things all have to look the same to be acceptable alone.

Quote from: Debbie Thompson on July 08, 2010, 01:14:42 PM
Just more than a little sick of finger pointing at SPAR all the time.  I feel I'm a reasonable voice, and I'm a SPAR member.  (I even vote!) Give it a rest.

I think a car wash in a historic district should blend in and not be red.  I think any business that opens in a historic district should try to blend into the existing aesthetic of the neighborhood as much as possible.

How about you stop throwing barbs at SPAR now, and realize that the aesthetic improvements were something Silas agreed to and should abide by?  They were the conditions upon which he would be allowed to re-open the car wash, and he agreed to them.

Wait, so are we talking about blending into the same historic district that your group had half of demolished?

The same historic district that, in all likelihood, your group's incessant complaining to the state and EPA about the Park View Inn being a toxic hazard over the past decade originally brought the EPA attention down that resulted in the whole place getting declared a toxic waste dump (literally)?

The same historic district that your group terrorized with orchestrated code-enforcement call-in campaigns, many of which resulted in the closure of local businesses and the demolition of historic structures?

The same historic district, wherein one of your fellow SPAR members just bulldozed another historic house because she wanted a bigger yard?

The same historic district whose chief protector, Joel Mceachin, your group tried to have fired because he actually tried to prevent demolitions of historic structures, including the one I just mentioned?

The same historic district whose overlay that your group selectively enforces, to the effect that it excludes black-owned businesses while allowing others (like Craig VanHorn) who properly kiss SPAR’s backside to get away with absolute bloody murder, including chasing off other businesses, ripping off other neighborhood residents, and destroying historic structures, all before going bust in spectacular fashion?

And, let's not forget, the same group whose former Executive Director, after spending the last decade browbeating everyone with her selectively-enforced zoning overlay, now has the balls to actually seek a ZONING EXCEPTION so that her own real estate deal can go through?

The same group that stopped a single parent with special needs children in the middle of the street and accosted him for trying to open a "group care home" for retards…RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS SPECIAL-NEEDS KIDS?

The same group who hired and paid the off-duty "community enforcement" officers who shot and killed Kiko Battles...FOR JAYWALKING???

The same group that was so off its rocker that it actually wrote THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES to complain about Joe and Gloria's home for recovering alcoholics? (That was effin' CLASSIC!)

The same group that drunkenly stormed a public meeting at 3 Layers and tried to punch Stephen Dare in the balls?

The same group that stormed the Woman's Club meetings, and whose drunken buffoonery got so out hand that the Woman's Club actually had to CALL THE COPS ON SPAR???

Really? Are we're talking about THE SAME GROUP? Really?

Nobody is throwing barbs at SPAR. The sad truth is, all of this stuff actually happened.

If SPAR finds it so offensive that anyone would point this out, then maybe SPAR should take some personal responsibility and stop doing the things that the very mention of apparently offend it…notwithstanding that it was only SPAR’s actual behavior in the first place.

The actions of your group truly defy belief, and no offense, but I think it will be a very long time before anyone has any sympathy for SPAR. Hopefully by that time, there will again be homes on all the vacant lots left behind by your group’s reign of destruction.

just a thought...blueprints for a lot ov these houses must still survive, but as far as i've seen, noöne has built new houses based on them.  seems to me that the ideal fix for the now-empty lots is for the next investor to actually build historically accurate houses...

QuoteThe same group that drunkenly stormed a public meeting at 3 Layers and tried to punch Stephen Dare in the balls?

Can I get a further explanation on this? It sounds hilarious.

Captain............I could tell you but I got my information second hand so I will leave it to chris to explain! My question is "What color is a bulldozed lot"?

Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 08, 2010, 02:21:10 PM

QuoteThe same group that drunkenly stormed a public meeting at 3 Layers and tried to punch Stephen Dare in the balls?

Can I get a further explanation on this? It sounds hilarious.

I'm going to let Stephen explain that one when he gets back, for your benefit, since the whole thing was so insanely over-the-top I really wouldn't want to leave anything out. You almost couldn't think this stuff was real, if it hadn't happened in front of 100 people.

Quote from: CS Foltz on July 08, 2010, 02:30:11 PM
Captain............I could tell you but I got my information second hand so I will leave it to chris to explain! My question is "What color is a bulldozed lot"?

The ones on my block are brown.  They find it easier to spray and kill all of the grass rather than mow.

Ouch! Too bad they don't atleast plant wildflowers........or maybe even have vegetable gardens for the neighborhood to share in......planting, maintaining and eating! But thats just me!

I have no dog in this race but after looking over all the threads about the car wash, it seems that the owner is doing exactly what was feared.  The colors aren't what got approved.  I actually like the red, but it seems like if he is deviating already on just this detail, who knows what else is to come.  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the car wash and will be a regular customer.  I'm just pointing out the facts, he got approval for one thing and is already doing another.  Unless the paint that he picked out originally is all of a sudden SO much more expensive, he had to choose another option then I can see no reason for this.  Why deviate what you have worked so hard to get approved for?  This isn't about taste of colors, SPAR and their desires or anything else.  He got approval for one thing and did another.  Chris, I take it you're a lawyer, you would have to at least agree with that wouldn't you? 

I believe the car wash will end up being a great addition to the neighborhood and sure hope things work out for the best.

I've been told off line that the owner does have a COA and has followed the rules up to this point.  However, he was not aware that he was locked into the paint color on the renderings.  So it appears that he will soon be repainting the building.

I am glad it sounds like it has been sorted out.

Quote from: JeffreyS on July 08, 2010, 07:40:57 PM
I am glad it sounds like it has been sorted out.

Same here.  Let's get this thing open, My car is dirty as heck and I would rather spend my money at a small business rather than a corporation that could care less.

There will never be peace.

In all fairness, color can not be mandated in the Springfield Historic District.  If they indeed told him he had to paint the thing the same color as the renderings, it may not have actually been legal.  Renderings are often just that and color is often the choice of the designer rather than the owner and it does often get changed from the COA approval to the final completion of the project.  A new COA would not be required for you changing your house color. Color can not be reviewed so therefore, not approved or denied.   The building could be polka-doted and be fine per the overlay and the guidelines.  If color was talked about at the COA hearing, it probably was not a proper thing to do.  But that happens a lot with the city.

Come on, what was important about those renderings was not the color, but the point that funds would be spent to improve the location, not just open it up as is.  It has been stated that he has and is doing exactly that.  It really makes no difference if it is some variation of red or beige.

I also have this urge to say...

SPAR or SPAR Council (proper name) deserves what ever barbs gets thrown its way.  The same "misguided" management, AKA dictatorship, is still in predominately in place so they are still trying to conduct business as usual and it won't be in the best interests of all of Springfield and all who live there.

That said, none of that means that all of the members are also no good.  In fact, Debbie Thompson, for instance, is one of the good ones. However, a dictatorship is just that and nothing she or anyone can do will change it.  Trying to get people not to speak out against SPAR Council is not the answer, only by continuing to apply political pressure can one hope that the management will change.

Strider, what do you currently see that is improving the location and not just opening up as it is?  I have seen it painted only.  What have I missed?  I'll have to go over tomorrow.  Am I correct in stating that the interior equipment is "done," and exterior improvements and an office/reception/place to pay is what is needed? 

Quote from: thelakelander on July 08, 2010, 07:26:40 PM
I've been told off line that the owner does have a COA and has followed the rules up to this point.  However, he was not aware that he was locked into the paint color on the renderings.  So it appears that he will soon be repainting the building.

This quote indicates that he has done the other items required or at least is working on them. I suppose we could go print out the exception and make up a check list to insure every little thing is done, but basically, the most important things have been done and or have more to do with things like hours of operation and what the man agreed to sell and not sell.  

The only issue seems to be the color of the building, which is not regulated by the overlay nor the historic guidelines.  Common sense says that if the building color had been this red color in the rendering, he would have still gotten his approval.  As long as everything else, which means stuff like repairs, old sign removed, minor landscaping, the signs for no left turn, ETC. get done, the man has done what was asked of him. The rendering was nice and yes, he agreed to do it, and it did contain several important key elements, which it seems he is addressing.  However, the color of the building is actually meaningless in the big scheme of things.

Click on the very first page of this thread and the rendering in question comes up.  Are you also going to count every single bush that is shown and insure that it is placed just where shown? Where does the nonsense stop and where does common sense say enough is enough.

Quote from: strider on July 09, 2010, 07:45:36 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on July 08, 2010, 07:26:40 PM
I've been told off line that the owner does have a COA and has followed the rules up to this point.  However, he was not aware that he was locked into the paint color on the renderings.  So it appears that he will soon be repainting the building.

This quote indicates that he has done the other items required or at least is working on them. I suppose we could go print out the exception and make up a check list to insure every little thing is done, but basically, the most important things have been done and or have more to do with things like hours of operation and what the man agreed to sell and not sell. 

The only issue seems to be the color of the building, which is not regulated by the overlay nor the historic guidelines.  Common sense says that if the building color had been this red color in the rendering, he would have still gotten his approval.  As long as everything else, which means stuff like repairs, old sign removed, minor landscaping, the signs for no left turn, ETC. get done, the man has done what was asked of him. The rendering was nice and yes, he agreed to do it, and it did contain several important key elements, which it seems he is addressing.  However, the color of the building is actually meaningless in the big scheme of things.

Click on the very first page of this thread and the rendering in question comes up.  Are you also going to count every single bush that is shown and insure that it is placed just where shown? Where does the nonsense stop and where does common sense say enough is enough.

It's SPAR. The ridiculous nonsense will never stop.

Makes me want to go out and paint my house lime green and orange with pink trim.

Quote from: danno on July 09, 2010, 11:08:28 AM
Makes me want to go out and paint my house lime green and orange with pink trim.

The funny part is that if you look at the SPARbarians' houses, some of their own color choices are so tacky it makes the carwash's burgundy look downright subdued. One in particular comes to mind, the thing looks like a rotten orange.

And of course, the funny part is that nothing in the zoning overlay, the COA, or the underlying commercial zoning of the property itself, restricts what color he can paint his building. Why doesn't anyone point out where exactly is this list of prohibited colors? Anyone? Helloooooo........anyone?

Why is it when i glance through these threads it is mostly the same people. Let it go! and move on.

Quote from: fsujax on July 09, 2010, 01:15:17 PM
Why is it when i glance through these threads it is mostly the same people. Let it go! and move on.

Because it's the same SPARbarians still torching the same villagers. Is everyone supposed to sit back and let it happen?

It is turning taupe as we speak.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4101/4777996496_bcaa276497_b.jpg)

Quote from: sheclown on July 09, 2010, 02:39:41 PM
It is turning taupe as we speak.

Thank god, the city has been saved, and now I'll be able to sleep at night...

(sigh)

Quote from: stephendare on July 09, 2010, 02:42:17 PM
so it really was a primer coat?

Good merciful God of dingo kidneys and dingbats. ::)

Well you know SPAR, nothing like a good coat of primer to get all upset about, LMAO...

hilarious

The way I interpreted what Jason originally wrote is that he was not complying with the required renovations. It had nothing to do with color. 


So is he complying with the approved design?

Quote from: Kay on July 09, 2010, 03:22:50 PM
The way I interpreted what Jason originally wrote is that he was not complying with the required renovations. It had nothing to do with color.  


So is he complying with the approved design?

Jason was getting flak from the LOLAs, which prompted him to pull a CYA.

But I find the really funny thing is that even if the carwash were in fact going to be burgundy, which obviously isn't the case, then it still would have complied with the approved design. There is nothing in the property's commercial zoning, the Springfield Overlay, or in the COA that prohibited him from painting the building a particular color.

Certain people jumped a little too quickly at the chance to say "I told you so" and no doubt piled onto Content, and Jason disappointingly decided to play along with an appeasement strategy. But it was a non-issue to begin with, there is no list of prohibited colors in his COA, or in the overlay. He can change a paint color if he wants without changing the approved design.

I guess I was right about the primer...... Maybe it was just Silas stiring the pot.

I doubt a person would use red primer to prep for taupe paint. He probably just caught wind of the complaints, I think someone on the site already mentioned they went to speak to him about the color choice. Either way at least he is willing to compromise to please whoever was pissed about the red.

Hard to deny that the majority of folks judge by appearances.  The new color is 1,000 better.  Aesthetically pleasing.  Now it is on the right track.  Yippee for sensibility!

'yippee for sensibility'?  really?  wouldn't it be better (maybe even 1,000 better!) to have a neighbourhood where 'bowing to pressure from a bunch ov self-important petty megalomaniacs' isn't considered synonymous with 'sensible'?

It was not primer, he was painting it red.  The design and colors that were presented to the council for exception had to be followed.  The paint colors did not matter at all to the HPC, but would have prevented him from opening, as would have the 10' high fence, because they were not what was represented in the site plan and design that got approved.  If he follows the road map, he opens....

I talked numerous times to Silas and other people that have stake in the project, i.e. planning and hpc, and Silas is back on track and has 1 more COA to obtain, signage.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on July 09, 2010, 03:27:50 PM

Quote from: Kay on July 09, 2010, 03:22:50 PM
The way I interpreted what Jason originally wrote is that he was not complying with the required renovations. It had nothing to do with color.  


So is he complying with the approved design?

Jason was getting flak from the LOLAs, which prompted him to pull a CYA.

But I find the really funny thing is that even if the carwash were in fact going to be burgundy, which obviously isn't the case, then it still would have complied with the approved design. There is nothing in the property's commercial zoning, the Springfield Overlay, or in the COA that prohibited him from painting the building a particular color.

Certain people jumped a little too quickly at the chance to say "I told you so" and no doubt piled onto Content, and Jason disappointingly decided to play along with an appeasement strategy. But it was a non-issue to begin with, there is no list of prohibited colors in his COA, or in the overlay. He can change a paint color if he wants without changing the approved design.

There are so many things wrong with the paragraph, but I'll play along, especially since you have no idea what I or Content Design has done to try and help Silas get this thing open and the whole paint issue does not tie into HPC and yes, of course you wont find a list of approved colors.  If Silas was trying to open a pizza place or other business that did not need a full design to help him get approval by exception, the the color would not matter at all...

Now if you think otherwise and Silas can paint the building whatever color and do what he wants, I think you need to take your beef to Planning....or if you'd like for me to try and schedule a meeting with you, Silas, and planning staff so you can tell them they are wrong and you can tell Silas what he does or does not need to do, just let me know.

Again, he agreed to the conditions, they aren't that difficult to meet...its up to Silas and he knows this.

Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on July 09, 2010, 05:42:47 PM
'yippee for sensibility'?  really?  wouldn't it be better (maybe even 1,000 better!) to have a neighbourhood where 'bowing to pressure from a bunch ov self-important petty megalomaniacs' isn't considered synonymous with 'sensible'?

I don't pay attention to all the "sparbarian" talk, certain "behaviors" of certain residents, LOLAs, etc.  I don't know who is being referred to half the time and honestly, I don't care.

I've followed the facts of the car wash.  I applaud Content Design for stepping up to help the owner open his business, and am pleased the owner changed the color to something more harmonious with a historic district.  My comment about sensibility was directly a the owner's sensibility. . .do it right the first time and he can open.  Follow the approved plan and he can open.  I've got a dirty tahoe that needs love.  And I'm ready for the carwash to open!!

Quote from: avs on July 09, 2010, 03:12:45 PM
hilarious

The best post of the day...it is hilarious that the color of this building, which means nothing as others have already posted that the other stuff, the important stuff was being followed.  And that the idea of a ten foot fence, a truly bad idea I might add, seemed to take second place to color.  Hilarious.  The "color gods" are laughing their ass off.

I haven't seen a fence erected as of yet.  When a 10 foot fence is erected, I'll do my dance and chant to the "fence Gods" and ask for it's height modification.  ;-)

Quote from: jason_contentdg on July 09, 2010, 05:53:14 PM
It was not primer, he was painting it red.  The design and colors that were presented to the council for exception had to be followed.  The paint colors did not matter at all to the HPC, but would have prevented him from opening, as would have the 10' high fence, because they were not what was represented in the site plan and design that got approved.  If he follows the road map, he opens....

I talked numerous times to Silas and other people that have stake in the project, i.e. planning and hpc, and Silas is back on track and has 1 more COA to obtain, signage.

I disagree with your legal conclusion...

And I'd still love to see that list of "prohibited paint colors" anywhere in the zoning, the COA, or the overlay...

Quote from: jason_contentdg on July 09, 2010, 06:09:13 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on July 09, 2010, 03:27:50 PM

Quote from: Kay on July 09, 2010, 03:22:50 PM
The way I interpreted what Jason originally wrote is that he was not complying with the required renovations. It had nothing to do with color.  


So is he complying with the approved design?

Jason was getting flak from the LOLAs, which prompted him to pull a CYA.

But I find the really funny thing is that even if the carwash were in fact going to be burgundy, which obviously isn't the case, then it still would have complied with the approved design. There is nothing in the property's commercial zoning, the Springfield Overlay, or in the COA that prohibited him from painting the building a particular color.

Certain people jumped a little too quickly at the chance to say "I told you so" and no doubt piled onto Content, and Jason disappointingly decided to play along with an appeasement strategy. But it was a non-issue to begin with, there is no list of prohibited colors in his COA, or in the overlay. He can change a paint color if he wants without changing the approved design.

There are so many things wrong with the paragraph, but I'll play along, especially since you have no idea what I or Content Design has done to try and help Silas get this thing open and the whole paint issue does not tie into HPC and yes, of course you wont find a list of approved colors.  If Silas was trying to open a pizza place or other business that did not need a full design to help him get approval by exception, the the color would not matter at all...

Now if you think otherwise and Silas can paint the building whatever color and do what he wants, I think you need to take your beef to Planning....or if you'd like for me to try and schedule a meeting with you, Silas, and planning staff so you can tell them they are wrong and you can tell Silas what he does or does not need to do, just let me know.

Again, he agreed to the conditions, they aren't that difficult to meet...its up to Silas and he knows this.

With all due respect, and I'm being really nice here only because I like your work and I think you mean well, you lost all claim to pull the "you don't know anything about what I've done..." stunt when you posted it all online, all of which I've read, along with the rest of this forum.

I disagree that choosing a paint color would disqualify the entire project from meeting the terms of the COA. The area in question has no inherent zoning restrictions on color choices, the recently enacted overlay has no restriction on color choices, and the COA itself had no restriction on color choices. If your argument is that a paint color choice by itself would be sufficient to find noncompliance, then you're wrong.

Before you pass judgment, I have a little photo expose I'm about to post, which highlights not only the disastrous dumps owned and operated by the very person who appealed to stop this same carwash (and lost), but also the fact that many properties in the immediate vicinity are in fact painted the exact same color, or are much worse eyesores. Wait and see. I'm in the middle of a dinner party, but I promise I'll get to it soon.

I have no beef with you, I think your work was amazing, I am impressed that you did it pro bono, and my only issue in this situation is that certain people have nothing better to do than pick at someone's paint color choice as an excuse to say "I told you so...".

Everyone shouldn't forget that what they originally told us would happen was that the carwash would cause rampant crack dealing and prostitution. What we've actually gotten is burgundy paint instead of grey paint, and these same idiots are already saying "I told you so...". Is this a joke? Really?

TO clear the record... I didn't really think it was primer.

I dont have an opinion on property rights, SPAR, the HPC, or the zoning commission... but I saw that color on a recent bikeride and thought 'Wow, that's ugly'

Have to check out the new color on tomorrow morning's ride.

Quote from: fieldafm on July 10, 2010, 02:49:46 PM
I dont have an opinion on property rights, SPAR, the HPC, or the zoning commission... but I saw that color on a recent bikeride and thought 'Wow, that's ugly'

Have to check out the new color on tomorrow morning's ride.

+1
Thankfully he's following the approved plan now.
Soon the owner will have lots of +1s under his name.
;-)

If you ask me, the world is too taupe already. 

What's with everything being the color of death?

I like Waafa's boldness.

Quote from: sheclown on July 10, 2010, 08:27:45 PM
If you ask me, the world is too taupe already. 

What's with everything being the color of death?

I like Waafa's boldness.

agreed.  that having been said, i think we've run out of problems to freak out about in springfield if this is a hot button issue.

Sorry....but I don't see where the color of the building is or should be an issue. I've seen plenty of houses in the neighborhood that are (IMO) hideous colors, but I've not seen where anyone is worried about them. This guy's been given enough crap, and has jumped through the hoops...let's let him open for business.

Quote from: Springfielder on July 11, 2010, 08:12:41 AM
Sorry....but I don't see where the color of the building is or should be an issue. I've seen plenty of houses in the neighborhood that are (IMO) hideous colors, but I've not seen where anyone is worried about them. This guy's been given enough crap, and has jumped through the hoops...let's let him open for business.

it is simple...if one of the hoops he jumped through required a specific look, then he has to meet it.

I don't recall hearing a thing about specific colors that had to be used, and would like to see where it was listed.

It is simply a case where the artistic rendering showed a certain color and some complained that the building was being painted a different color. At a guess, the planning department choose, and it was a choice, not a requirement, to tell him it had to be the color shown on the artistic rendering. Just what we all needed, another boring beige or taupe building.  It sometimes seems that given their choice, architects and designers would make the world the colors of the desert camouflage army gear rather than bright and noticeable.  I guess they think it looks neat and clean in those boring colors. Or perhaps they are just trying to be "safe" and not have to face the wrath of the "color police".

OMGawd I pood and peed u make me laugh so hard   {Anut Eulabelle}

Quote from: stephendare on January 06, 2010, 10:51:28 AM
I personally think it would be more effective to simply take all the guns away from Aunt Eulabelle and the uppity cousins before they start shooting at yet another 'outsider', but this is a commendable job!

GET THAT JOINT UP AND TURNING A PROFIT!
Hire decent local individuals with manners who won't get you shut down.
Simple.

GOODLUCK!

A Springfield friend and I walked Main Street and visited with Silas' son and talked about the car wash. 

Grand Opening January 1, including a barbeque to highlight the day.
In addition to the automatic wash, there will be a hand wash and detail area back by the bungalows.
There will be air and vaccums free of charge to use.
There will be planned vintage car shows in the paved lot directly on Main Street.
The landscaping is coming along, there is lots of green grass and plants already, he will be planting more flowers soon.
There were iron tables and chairs with umbrellas outside.

I apologized for the neighborhood and his "welcome" and said that I hope he would be successful.  My friend said she would be bringing her car for washes.

Quite honestly?  I'm impressed.  And that's tough to do.

Go check it out.  Do it.  Drive by.  Stop by, get out and talk to them.  Worth it. 

I'm glad things appear to be turning out okay and that the car wash will be an asset to the area.  It seems that the owner is keeping his word on the improvements to the site that he promised.

Quote from: iloveionia on November 18, 2010, 07:51:40 PM
A Springfield friend and I walked Main Street and visited with Silas' son and talked about the car wash. 

Grand Opening January 1, including a barbeque to highlight the day.
In addition to the automatic wash, there will be a hand wash and detail area back by the bungalows.
There will be air and vaccums free of charge to use.
There will be planned vintage car shows in the paved lot directly on Main Street.
The landscaping is coming along, there is lots of green grass and plants already, he will be planting more flowers soon.
There were iron tables and chairs with umbrellas outside.

I apologized for the neighborhood and his "welcome" and said that I hope he would be successful.  My friend said she would be bringing her car for washes.

Quite honestly?  I'm impressed.  And that's tough to do.

Go check it out.  Do it.  Drive by.  Stop by, get out and talk to them.  Worth it. 

How many cities have a Famous Car Wash, that people travel to visit?? This could be that place!

I am not in Jax right now. 
Did the carwash have it's grand opening on January 1st?

no. it is still closed as far as I can tell.

Addition: but very close to opening the way it looks. It looks "ready". The industrial vacuums outside are installed, the place is clean, landscaped and such.

I am ready for a carwash-when will the carwash be ready for Springfield????

Springfield, New Springfield, Downtown and Eastside residents are ready.
Why wouldn't they be.  shiny rims here there and everywhere.
Car detailing was my first business venture as a14 year old kid.
People LOVE a clean ride.

OPEN your arms and hug MrSilas Jones, SPAR.

I went by today and he said "soon" so soon I guess.

The sign at the car wash says the grand opening is tomorrow, March 1st.

Good for Silas.  The place looks wonderful.

Can we see some photos of this WONDERFUL place?

Quote from: sheclown on March 01, 2011, 06:20:10 AM
Good for Silas.  The place looks wonderful.

oh jeez. you really do need to get out more.

Quote from: arteest on March 01, 2011, 07:40:37 AM

Quote from: sheclown on March 01, 2011, 06:20:10 AM
Good for Silas.  The place looks wonderful.

oh jeez. you really do need to get out more.

umm...what point are you tryïng to make here?

Hey. 
The car wash rid of abandoned blight.
It's a positive for Main Street.

SAMBA stated he would not be ready until March 8th to open.

(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab165/sheclown/DSCN1058-1.jpg)

I think it looks lovely.

(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab165/sheclown/DSCN1059-1.jpg)

I thinks so too.

So, is it open or not?  I'll swing by Saturday after the Hogans Creek Cleanup for a wash if its open!

Quote from: sheclown on March 01, 2011, 04:49:09 PM
(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab165/sheclown/DSCN1059-1.jpg)

The horror!

Now, if the City would clean up that sidewalk.  ;D

That would require money the City doesn't have big guy! Got money for Metropolitan Park and River walk upgrade, but heaven forbid they should clean up sidewalks or maybe pickup litter!

Hey so is carwash open yet or not?

Speaking off springfield, the $500,000 renovation of wachovia/wells fargo bank is a plus also. and I noticed they are doing facelifts to the store fronts at 8 and main as well. It may seem like a slow process, but this area is WAY more attractive than it was 15 years ago. Things are moving in the right direction....slowly... Lol

Quote from: letters and numbers on March 07, 2011, 09:07:08 AM
Hey so is carwash open yet or not?

Well I haven't noticed SPAR's claimed invasion of hookers and crack dealers that would be the natural result of a carwash opening in the neighborhood, so I can only guess it must not be open yet.

Car wash has been opened a couple weeks now.  Silas will be having a grand
Opening celebration soon.  He has a friendly staff that does a great job, even has a frequent washers card.  He needs everyone's support just as much now as he did fighting to open.

Quote from: jason_contentdg on March 21, 2011, 06:24:39 PM
Car wash has been opened a couple weeks now.  Silas will be having a grand
Opening celebration soon.  He has a friendly staff that does a great job, even has a frequent washers card.  He needs everyone's support just as much now as he did fighting to open.

Well now I'm confused. If it's open, then where are all the hookers and crack dealers SPAR warned us about?

Hey i read through all of that stuff and the 'concern' was traffic cutting thru the hood not drugs and hookers. i wonder if traffic cutting thru is a problem. i hope not bc i love the westsouth quadrant area

Quote from: letters and numbers on March 21, 2011, 06:48:12 PM
Hey i read through all of that stuff and the 'concern' was traffic cutting thru the hood not drugs and hookers. i wonder if traffic cutting thru is a problem. i hope not bc i love the westsouth quadrant area

No, the concern was "prostitution" and "drug activity" according to SPAR's own testimony at the appeal hearing, which several MJ members attended, not to mention SPAR's baseless claims that Silas Jones was secretly planning to open a convenience store instead of a carwash. And;

For that reason
Someone with an
Ulterior motive in these SPAR threads might want to research these things a little better.

Which brings me to Romans 8:13;

if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live

Quite appropriate advice for certain SPARbarians methinks...

The car wash is open.

I went there today and they did a great job on my car that hadn't been washed in about 5 years. I was the only one there so hopefully things will pick up for them.

Lunican...You sound like me.. Once every 5 years whether it needs it or not.

Quote from: Lunican on April 03, 2011, 10:53:39 PM
The car wash is open.

I went there today and they did a great job on my car that hadn't been washed in about 5 years. I was the only one there so hopefully things will pick up for them.

looks like they open at 8am every day...and when I passed by there around 8:15am, there were several cars already there...of course they could have been employees

Nice post there, SG :)

I stopped by the car wash today...and quite possibly got the best $15 wash ever....I encourage everyone to give them a shot!

If that is a full-service wash, they will get customers.  That is great

I love the attitude that it "might" fail so it should never have opened. I have to wonder which is better, a vacant bombed out building, a bulldozed slab oozing weeds into the surrounding yards, or a humble mom and pop business that manages to eek out a living in this economy. Hell if it were left in the condition it WAS in before the rebuild some enterprising pimp could have made a fortune off the crib rentals.

OCKLAWAHA

May I answer this question , Ock? :)

1 year ago:

http://www.youtube.com/v/ATydFBaOpGE?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US

Outrageous.

Good job Silas and Stephen. And thumbs down to all the SPARbarians in the back row snickering and bitching.

"Springfield is not going to make it if all we put on our Main street are car things".

Wow. Aren't these the same people that approved that car-centric 2 lane highway design they're calling "main street" these days & took away a bunch of bus stops for pedestrians??

Yeah, way to go, lady. I think you've already pretty much screwed that pooch.

I stopped by the car wash on thrusday and I must say this is the best my truck has looked all year. My crossover is black with chrome trim, so its half washed it will show. Since I moved on the Westside in March, I havent found a car wash yet that I Liked. I went on my lunch break and it was only 6.00. I'll be going back.

MJ really needs to do an all-time top 10. This would be it, along with that Moon River Pizza thread for about 5 years ago.