QuoteNegotiators for Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan and the city have not drafted a final deal for his $450 million to $500 million Lot J development, but team leadership already is looking ahead to a possible Phase II.
Jaguars President Mark Lamping outlined the Phase II concept during an interview Jan. 21 to include two high-rise towers and a connecting parking garage that he said could be nearly $200 million on top of the investment in the first phase.
QuoteLamping said Phase II and its additional capital investment in the Sports Complex would likely bring a second round of talks with the city for incentives separate from the Lot J proposal that is being negotiated.
Full Article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jaguars-already-planning-phase-ii-for-lot-j-development
Once Phase I is built I can climb the skyscraper to eat all the pie they're putting in the sky
Phase II sounds like everything that was supposed to be a part of Phase I, except for the Live Area! (Landing Replacement). However, the incentives ask didn't change for Phase I.
Quote"Our hope was that Lot J would be a catalyst for other development. In fact, we're already talking about the next phase of Lot J which would bring the total to around $700 million," Lamping said.
Is it really a catalyst for development if the city still has to pay for that development?
QuoteLamping said city and Jaguars negotiators are "closer than they've been" on reaching a deal for city financing.
I'm glad they are closer than they had been, considering construction was suppose to be underway right now.
Can someone provide insight to a novice? I know we don't have the final details but is COJ going to maintain ownership of the land (meaning no property tax collection)? Where is the revenue going to come from to repay the bonds for whatever the tax payer contribution is going to be?
What is the hook to travel all the way to an isolated site and spend my money?
Quote from: thelakelander on January 24, 2020, 10:02:59 AM
Phase II sounds like everything that was supposed to be a part of Phase I, except for the Live Area! (Landing Replacement). However, the incentives ask didn't change for Phase I.
I have believed from the moment that Curry was re-elected that his plan to demolish the Landing was to push the hub of entertainment to Lot J. My fear was always that Lot J might never happen. I've told all my friends that if we don't see the beginning of construction in early 2020 we may never see this come to fruition. I'm still not sure. I truely believe that if Lot J dies Curry will go down in history as the WORST mayor of Jacksonville at least in my lifetime. And the scariest thing is I believe we will see more demolition in the next 3 years of his demolition derby. This only makes it even sadder that one of the great cheerleaders of Jacksonville has died. I wish we had another Jake.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 24, 2020, 10:02:59 AM
Phase II sounds like everything that was supposed to be a part of Phase I, except for the Live Area! (Landing Replacement). However, the incentives ask didn't change for Phase I.
Hopefully this isn't the case and residential and office components mentioned for Phase II would be in addition to, rather than replacing, the residential and office components in Phase I. Lamping's stated a few times here in the last week, as has Curry, that the original term sheet remains the overall framework for the deal they're working towards. Not sure the Jags could just remove those elements all together without starting back from zero on the economic development agreement.
What the current terms do allow, however, is for the the office component in Phase I to be replaced by mid-rise residential.
I could see the Jags shifting the office component from Phase I to Phase II (surely there's not a market for two office components right now) and shifting the mid-rise residential that was originally part of their Phase II plans into the first phase. 600 total luxury residential units, which they'd be bound to by the current framework in this scenario, feels very aggressive for the area, but so does an office tower in the stadium parking lot :o
(https://i.snipboard.io/KoRgYp.jpg)
Per the term sheet, if the Jags were to make an office/mid-rise residential swap for Phase I, development rights of the surface parking lot over the retention pond would be transferred to the team for additional development, as alluded to here by Lamping.
For Phase II, based on past precedent with similar Cordish developments, you've got to think that, at the least, the Jags would ask the city to pay for the 1,000+ spot connecting garage necessary to replace the surface lot and provide parking for the residential and office components noted by Lamping.
I'll believe any of it when I see it.
We've been "very close" on a deal for over a year now.
Quote from: Chuckabear on January 24, 2020, 11:18:36 AM
Can someone provide insight to a novice? I know we don't have the final details but is COJ going to maintain ownership of the land (meaning no property tax collection)? Where is the revenue going to come from to repay the bonds for whatever the tax payer contribution is going to be?
What is the hook to travel all the way to an isolated site and spend my money?
The city will own the Live! Entertainment complex, the surface parking lot (unless the Jags develop it, in which case we'd transfer ownership and provide a REV grant up to $20 million), and all the public spaces/roadways/sidewalks. Land for any hotel, residential, or office development will be given to the Jags by the city at no cost. We've discussed using a part of the bed tax to finance the project, and I'm sure some wacky projections are being made somewhere about how incremental revenue from all the net new business at Lot J, along with the windfall from hosting the NFL draft every year going forward, will allow us to service the debt with money leftover to relocate the jail.
The hook is less about traveling to an isolated site to spend your money, and more about capturing revenue from the ~1 million people already attending the 300+ events each year in the sports complex. To that end, I like the Live! aspect of the development, and hope that its gets a slightly larger footprint than the tiny venue currently proposed. Even the hotel I like, as having the Live! complex and a hotel in the sports complex genuinely does make the area more attractive for major sporting events and festivals.
The office, residential, and hotel is intended to create a "new urban neighborhood" to feed into the restaurant and retail components during non-event times.
Meanwhile, in the most prolonged period of economic prosperity and urban revitalization in United States history, you still can't find a cup of coffee after 6 PM in Jacksonville's existing central business district.
What's the break down on the $233 million in subsidies previously requested? Seems excessive for pad sites that may or not may be residential/office/hotel, a surface parking lot and an expensive strip mall.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 24, 2020, 12:50:25 PM
What's the break down on the $233 million in subsidies previously requested? Seems excessive for pad sites that may or not may be residential/office/hotel, a surface parking lot and an expensive strip mall.
Tax rebate:
- $25 million REV grant (75% over 20 years) for the overall project, based on estimated costs of $67 million for the office building, $77 million for the hotel, and $128 million for the residential tower.
Cash:
- $50 million cash for the city's half of Jacksonville Live!
- $93 million cash for infrastructure ($33 million for general site improvements, $6 million for remediation, $45 million for the built-in parking garages, $8 million for the surface lot)
- $66 million in extra cash in the form of a grant to the Jags/Cordish for agreeing to take on the project
If Jacksonville Live! comes in at less than $100 million, or if infrastructure improvements come in at less than $93 million, the Jags are free to reallocate the remaining publicly subsidized balance into the other private components of the project.
The vague $66 million bonus grant is what feels particularly greedy to me.
As the current deal is structured, the city is footing 50% the bill, and the Jags and Cordish are each footing 25%.
Kill the development grant turning it into a true 33%/33%/33% split, and I think it's a much fairer deal for the city.
Quote from: avonjax on January 24, 2020, 12:27:10 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 24, 2020, 10:02:59 AM
Phase II sounds like everything that was supposed to be a part of Phase I, except for the Live Area! (Landing Replacement). However, the incentives ask didn't change for Phase I.
I have believed from the moment that Curry was re-elected that his plan to demolish the Landing was to push the hub of entertainment to Lot J. My fear was always that Lot J might never happen. I've told all my friends that if we don't see the beginning of construction in early 2020 we may never see this come to fruition. I'm still not sure. I truely believe that if Lot J dies Curry will go down in history as the WORST mayor of Jacksonville at least in my lifetime. And the scariest thing is I believe we will see more demolition in the next 3 years of his demolition derby. This only makes it even sadder that one of the great cheerleaders of Jacksonville has died. I wish we had another Jake.
Yeah - it's absolutely crystal clear that's why there was such a big rush to tear down the Landing, especially after what Curry pulled with the JEA. I'm glad they were able to put a stop to that but it's a shame the Landing ended up coming down anyway. I absolutely do not think Lot J will ever happen, and if it does it will be a pale sickly shadow of their elaborate plans.
Quote from: vicupstate on January 24, 2020, 10:35:17 AM
QuoteLamping said city and Jaguars negotiators are "closer than they've been" on reaching a deal for city financing.
I'm glad they are closer than they had been, considering construction was suppose to be underway right now.
Well construction was set to begin the Monday after the AFC Championship Game, the implication being that it couldn't start before then because the Jaguars would be hosting that event. My guess is they meant construction will begin the Monday after the next AFC Championship Game hosted by the Jaguars. In other words, never.
I mean, if the plan also included streetcar/tram running the entire length of Bay Street (abutting the clearly over-used Shipyards parcel(s)) from the JTA Hub, that'd reduce the isolation of Lot J from the rest of the Core, yes?
Y'know - *that* old rag...
I guy can dream, can't he? :)
Quote from: Ken_FSU on January 24, 2020, 01:59:09 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 24, 2020, 12:50:25 PM
What's the break down on the $233 million in subsidies previously requested? Seems excessive for pad sites that may or not may be residential/office/hotel, a surface parking lot and an expensive strip mall.
Tax rebate:
- $25 million REV grant (75% over 20 years) for the overall project, based on estimated costs of $67 million for the office building, $77 million for the hotel, and $128 million for the residential tower.
Let's assume the office building and residential tower in phase I are replaced with a mid-rise stick frame apartment building. I'd assume the REV grant rebate would be lower? For references, SoBa on the Southbank is a 4-story, stick frame apartment project with 147 units and structured parking. That project cost $15 million. Monthly rental rates were said to start from about $1,300 for one-bedroom units and $1,600 for two-bedroom units. Is that considered "luxury"?
QuoteCash:
- $50 million cash for the city's half of Jacksonville Live!
Xfinity Live! cost around $50 million when it was built in 2012. Our estimate is $100 million?! Is it safe to assume that this Live! be significantly larger?
Quote- $93 million cash for infrastructure ($33 million for general site improvements, $6 million for remediation, $45 million for the built-in parking garages, $8 million for the surface lot)
I find this number to be quite ambiguous. Why give $45 million up-front for built-in parking garages for building products that could change to something that may not include built-in parking garages? COJ would probably save money, cleaning the site and putting in a road grid independently. Also, if there's a phase 2 proposed for the surface parking lot, don't waste $8 million making it.
Quote- $66 million in extra cash in the form of a grant to the Jags/Cordish for agreeing to take on the project
This part is outright ridiculous and reeks of desperation. If we were handing out these types of incentives for various downtown projects in the past, the place would be redeveloped already. You start adding these numbers up and it seems like taxpayers could be paying 100% for whatever goes there and that would be a best case scenario. The worst case scenario (and more likely one) would be a half empty Live! (Landing 2.0) that taxpayers would own, in the middle of surface parking and pad sites, with all that extra up-front cash gone.
QuoteIf Jacksonville Live! comes in at less than $100 million, or if infrastructure improvements come in at less than $93 million, the Jags are free to reallocate the remaining publicly subsidized balance into the other private components of the project.
Really makes you question the experience and credibility of the individuals in the negotiation room representing the tax payers.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 24, 2020, 03:28:31 PMXfinity Live! cost around $50 million when it was built in 2012. Our estimate is $100 million?! Is it safe to assume that this Live! be significantly larger?
If by "significantly larger," you mean "appears to be less than half the size of the smallest existing Cordish Live! complex," then yes, significantly larger ;)
Quote from: Ken_FSU on August 10, 2019, 07:48:56 PM
The project is being sold in term sheet as similiar to Ballpark Village/KC Live!, and has also been compared to Cordish's Texas Live! and Xfinity Live! in Philadelphia.
But check out the property sizes.
Phase 1 of Ballpark Village (the entertainment district) is 2.13 acres.
(https://snag.gy/9eAsY8.jpg)
KC Live! (the Cordish entertainment complex) is 3.11 acres.
(https://snag.gy/Ni1jMT.jpg)
Xfinity Live! in Philiadelphia is 2.34 acres.
(https://snag.gy/dz4QCA.jpg)
Texas Live! is 3.66 acres.
(https://snag.gy/ISlq3C.jpg)
Powerplant Live in Baltimore is 3.54 acres.
(https://snag.gy/EVF9sL.jpg)
So, take a look at the site plan that the Jags and Cordish have released:
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/238405_standard.jpeg)
And look at how much space is dedicated to the Cordish Live! complex that the city is ponying up $50 million for to be our new comparable "entertainment district."
(https://snag.gy/obvxlN.jpg)
An acre is generous, considering the shape of the complex.
This is legimately 45% the size of the SMALLEST Live! development that Cordish has developed.
Unless the rest of the development is loaded with ground level entertainment uses (the JEA proposal had zero), or it's obscenely vertical compared to other Cordish developments, I'm not entirely sure how our "entertainment district" consists of much more than maybe two small restaurants and one or two bars.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 24, 2020, 03:28:31 PM
Really makes you question the experience and credibility of the individuals in the negotiation room representing the tax payers.
(https://www.jacksonville.com/storyimage/LK/20190820/NEWS/190829701/AR/0/AR-190829701.jpg)
Stop the insanity and just send a Get Out of Jax offer to the Jags. They pay us $400 million cash, transfer full ownership of Dailys Place to the City, and they can walk away 10 years early.
Quote from: Kerry on January 24, 2020, 03:53:19 PM
Stop the insanity and just send a Get Out of Jax offer to the Jags. They pay us $400 million cash, transfer full ownership of Dailys Place to the City, and they can walk away 10 years early.
Hopefully they'll move to OKC
Quote from: Peter Griffin on January 24, 2020, 04:07:25 PM
Quote from: Kerry on January 24, 2020, 03:53:19 PM
Stop the insanity and just send a Get Out of Jax offer to the Jags. They pay us $400 million cash, transfer full ownership of Dailys Place to the City, and they can walk away 10 years early.
Hopefully they'll move to OKC
OKC doesn't want them. I'm sure there are some frustrated Cowboy fans but OKC is about maxed out on sports with OU, OSU, Thunder, Remington Park, AAA baseball, Women's College World Series, US Softball Center, US Olympic Rowing Center, and the new soccer-specific stadium to attract MLS...or were you trying to be sarcastic?
Quote from: Kerry on January 24, 2020, 03:53:19 PM
Stop the insanity and just send a Get Out of Jax offer to the Jags. They pay us $400 million cash, transfer full ownership of Dailys Place to the City, and they can walk away 10 years early.
As much as I find myself more willing to come to terms with this, I think it was discussed in another thread how most of the city (who, remember, doesn't give a damn about downtown) would never forgive whoever would allow this to happen.
Breaking news - most of the city doesn't care about the Jags either. Except for game day and wear your jersey to work day - honestly, how much Jags stuff do you see people wearing?
Quote from: Ken_FSU on January 24, 2020, 01:59:09 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 24, 2020, 12:50:25 PM
What's the break down on the $233 million in subsidies previously requested? Seems excessive for pad sites that may or not may be residential/office/hotel, a surface parking lot and an expensive strip mall.
Tax rebate:
- $25 million REV grant (75% over 20 years) for the overall project, based on estimated costs of $67 million for the office building, $77 million for the hotel, and $128 million for the residential tower.
Cash:
- $50 million cash for the city's half of Jacksonville Live!
- $93 million cash for infrastructure ($33 million for general site improvements, $6 million for remediation, $45 million for the built-in parking garages, $8 million for the surface lot)
- $66 million in extra cash in the form of a grant to the Jags/Cordish for agreeing to take on the project
If Jacksonville Live! comes in at less than $100 million, or if infrastructure improvements come in at less than $93 million, the Jags are free to reallocate the remaining publicly subsidized balance into the other private components of the project.
The vague $66 million bonus grant is what feels particularly greedy to me.
As the current deal is structured, the city is footing 50% the bill, and the Jags and Cordish are each footing 25%.
Kill the development grant turning it into a true 33%/33%/33% split, and I think it's a much fairer deal for the city.
Let's not forget the approximate $38 to $50 million to tear down the Hart Bridge ramps plus millions more to build an "innovation" corridor down Bay Street that only leads to the Stadium district and/or other properties the Jags hope to develop (e.g. Shipyards, Metro Park). As stated in another thread, adjusted for inflation, this project and prior investments in the Stadium and other Jag-friendly projects likely will total over $1 billion in taxpayer investment when all is said and done.
It appears that Khan is getting a great ROI on his contributions to Curry's PAC's. Other than Curry and Khan, where is the community passion for this project based on this taxpayer investment coming from?
Could this be another Curry boondoggle following his kick-the-can-down-the-road pension plan, JEA sale, Landing, Ford on Bay, etc. demolition derby, Berkman II amusement park, Kids Hope Alliance and School Board referendum fiascos? Meanwhile, murders hit record highs, droves of the middle class are headed for St. Johns and Nassau, Duval streets are crumbling, parks are underfunded, the NW Quadrant continues to get crumbs, Downtown is barely moving forward and numerous hand picked administrators are embroiled in controversy or worse. Can someone tell me one positive legacy, to date, of the Curry administration?
When the current economic cycle inevitably comes to an end, the falling tide (e.g. lower property tax revenue and lack of economic development) will fully reveal just how rocky a bottom our mayor has left us right below the water line.
Unfortuntely, if you thought the Landing was a failure, you haven't seen anything yet. It cost under $50 million but was at least in the center of downtown, where some businesses like Hooters, Compass Bank and Coastal Cookies could survive despite years of deliberately trying to drive them out of business. Kansas City is still paying for the Power & Light District but at least it's in the middle of downtown, so they get the spill off economy activity that combines with what was already taken place. Just wait till Curry leaves office and someone exposes the real ROI.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 24, 2020, 11:40:36 PM
Can someone tell me one positive legacy, to date, of the Curry administration?
Jacksonville getting a newspaper back. The Times-Union has been excellent in coverage of the scheme to sell JEA and enrich a small number of connected people in the process.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 25, 2020, 08:48:54 AM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 24, 2020, 11:40:36 PM
Can someone tell me one positive legacy, to date, of the Curry administration?
Jacksonville getting a newspaper back. The Times-Union has been excellent in coverage of the scheme to sell JEA and enrich a small number of connected people in the process.
Lol, here here!
Jacksonville...doomed. Hurts me to say that. I believe, sincerely, though the area doesn't staunchly or fully support them, when and if the Jags leave town, that will not only be the "nail in the coffin" for downtown Jacksonville, but for Jacksonville as a whole.
I woulnd't underestimate how important the Jags are to the city. More precisely, I wouldn't underestimate the importance people place on civic pride. The Jaguars being a obvious focal point for people to show it.
Sinclair Lewis made a career out of writing about our weird obsession with civic pride
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/101184/main-street-by-sinclair-lewis/
Quote from: heights unknown on January 26, 2020, 10:16:35 AM
Jacksonville...doomed. Hurts me to say that. I believe, sincerely, though the area doesn't staunchly or fully support them, when and if the Jags leave town, that will not only be the "nail in the coffin" for downtown Jacksonville, but for Jacksonville as a whole.
I beg to differ. The Jags leaving would be the best thing to happen to downtown Jax in 50 years. It is like getting out of an abusive relationship. The Jags were supposed to be "for better or worse", but the taxpayers gave the better and the Jags gave the worse.
Imagine where all the money spent on the Jags for 20 years (public, private, and corporate) would have gone if not sent down the NFL's black hole. The Jags are a luxury item and we can't even afford the necessities.
The NFL promised untold benefits and being on ESPN every week was supposed to deliver jobs, corporate relocations, civic pride, and be an economic boost to all of northeast Florida. Well, 20 years later none of that happened and all we have to show for it is a lot of debt. We still have to bail the team out and pay Amazon $20 million to provide us with same-day delivery.
Having the Jags out of the equation will force Jax leadership to refocus on the correct priorities.
Quote from: Kerry on January 24, 2020, 03:53:19 PM
Stop the insanity and just send a Get Out of Jax offer to the Jags. They pay us $400 million cash, transfer full ownership of Dailys Place to the City, and they can walk away 10 years early.
I'll give you $100 to move
QuoteThe NFL promised untold benefits and being on ESPN every week was supposed to deliver jobs, corporate relocations, civic pride, and be an economic boost to all of northeast Florida. Well, 20 years later none of that happened and all we have to show for it is a lot of debt. We still have to bail the team out and pay Amazon $20 million to provide us with same-day delivery.
Perhaps someone without the unbridled disdain and conspiratorial contempt for the Jaguars would have a more nuanced view. A previous member of the Jaguars ownership team, the founder of the Touchdown Jacksonville group that was responsible for bringing the Jaguars to Jacksonville, and at the time the chairman of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission... Tom Petway was principally responsible for the Fidelity relocation that brought two (and at times three) Fortune 500 headquarters to Jacksonville. 17 years later, Fidelity is about to double its Jacksonville's corporate presence through the acquisition and subsequent relocation of the company headquarters of Worldpay.
Petway's home served as the personal residence of Fidelity chairman Bill Foley and his executive leadership team during their time visiting Jacksonville and speaking to public and private business leaders during the relocation recruitment. Foley like Petway's home so much, he eventually bought it.
Both Petway and Foley have credited Florida's more welcoming corporate culture and lower costs of living (as compared to California) as part of Fidelity's move, but have also always maintained that the Jaguars significantly elevated Jacksonville's corporate profile among CEOs. I've personally heard them say this about a dozen times I can recall off the top of my head. Being someone that actually lived here before and after the Jaguars.. I can tell you UNQUESTIONABLY that from a civic pride and corporate recognition standpoint, the Jaguars have done more to raise Jacksonville's profile than anything I've personally witnessed. Its nice that you flood this board with whiny complaints, but I vividly remember living in the stench of this city when the paper mills permeated an olfactory funk throughout the neighborhoods where I grew up. The Jacksonville of today is night and day different from pre-Jaguars days.
Notwithstanding whatever future incentives will be requested for Lot J and future stadium upgrades (and a vociferous and well-reasoned debate is absolutely necessary in regards to these future asks).... an objective look back and examination of the public money spent on the Jaguars has been demonstrably less than virtually all other NFL cities over the past 30 years (aside from lukewarm and not-particularly serious attempts to move teams from Houston, Baltimore, St Louis and New Orleans to Jacksonville... the NFL expansion talk that led to the Jaguars began here in 1991).
Lot J deserves intense scrutiny from the general public and elected officials, but for some Johnny-come-lately carpet bagger to churn out such hot garbage about what the Jaguars have meant to Jacksonville as you do simply doesn't line up to the actual experiences of real-life Jaxsons.
Quote from: fieldafm on January 27, 2020, 08:58:53 AM
Quote from: Kerry on January 24, 2020, 03:53:19 PM
Stop the insanity and just send a Get Out of Jax offer to the Jags. They pay us $400 million cash, transfer full ownership of Dailys Place to the City, and they can walk away 10 years early.
I'll give you $100 to move
;D TOO FUNNY
Quote from: fieldafm on January 27, 2020, 08:58:53 AM
Quote from: Kerry on January 24, 2020, 03:53:19 PM
Stop the insanity and just send a Get Out of Jax offer to the Jags. They pay us $400 million cash, transfer full ownership of Dailys Place to the City, and they can walk away 10 years early.
I'll give you $100 to move
QuoteThe NFL promised untold benefits and being on ESPN every week was supposed to deliver jobs, corporate relocations, civic pride, and be an economic boost to all of northeast Florida. Well, 20 years later none of that happened and all we have to show for it is a lot of debt. We still have to bail the team out and pay Amazon $20 million to provide us with same-day delivery.
Perhaps someone without the unbridled disdain and conspiratorial contempt for the Jaguars would have a more nuanced view. A previous member of the Jaguars ownership team, the founder of the Touchdown Jacksonville group that was responsible for bringing the Jaguars to Jacksonville, and at the time the chairman of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission... Tom Petway was principally responsible for the Fidelity relocation that brought two (and at times three) Fortune 500 headquarters to Jacksonville. 17 years later, Fidelity is about to double its Jacksonville's corporate presence through the acquisition and subsequent relocation of the company headquarters of Worldpay.
Petway's home served as the personal residence of Fidelity chairman Bill Foley and his executive leadership team during their time visiting Jacksonville and speaking to public and private business leaders during the relocation recruitment. Foley like Petway's home so much, he eventually bought it.
Both Petway and Foley have credited Florida's more welcoming corporate culture and lower costs of living (as compared to California) as part of Fidelity's move, but have also always maintained that the Jaguars significantly elevated Jacksonville's corporate profile among CEOs. I've personally heard them say this about a dozen times I can recall off the top of my head. Being someone that actually lived here before and after the Jaguars.. I can tell you UNQUESTIONABLY that from a civic pride and corporate recognition standpoint, the Jaguars have done more to raise Jacksonville's profile than anything I've personally witnessed. Its nice that you flood this board with whiny complaints, but I vividly remember living in the stench of this city when the paper mills permeated an olfactory funk throughout the neighborhoods where I grew up. The Jacksonville of today is night and day different from pre-Jaguars days.
Notwithstanding whatever future incentives will be requested for Lot J and future stadium upgrades (and a vociferous and well-reasoned debate is absolutely necessary in regards to these future asks).... an objective look back and examination of the public money spent on the Jaguars has been demonstrably less than virtually all other NFL cities over the past 30 years (aside from lukewarm and not-particularly serious attempts to move teams from Houston, Baltimore, St Louis and New Orleans to Jacksonville... the NFL expansion talk that led to the Jaguars began here in 1991).
Lot J deserves intense scrutiny from the general public and elected officials, but for some Johnny-come-lately carpet bagger to churn out such hot garbage about what the Jaguars have meant to Jacksonville as you do simply doesn't line up to the actual experiences of real-life Jaxsons.
Well stated, Mike.
Lot J deserves intense scrutiny from the general public and elected officials, but for some Johnny-come-lately carpet bagger to churn out such hot garbage about what the Jaguars have meant to Jacksonville as you do simply doesn't line up to the actual experiences of real-life Jaxsons.
Right on. However, please remember that the purpose of the Forum is to bash Lenny Curry, oppose urban development (except for adaptive reuse of decrepit buildings), and decry taxpayer investments in the downtown area. Support for the mayor, the Jaguars, and urban redevelopment will not be tolerated.
Quote from: Kerry on January 24, 2020, 10:55:30 PM
Breaking news - most of the city doesn't care about the Jags either. Except for game day and wear your jersey to work day - honestly, how much Jags stuff do you see people wearing?
This is such a short sighted comment, I don't even know where to begin. Complain all you want, but you don't know what you're talking about here.
Quote from: downtownbrown on January 27, 2020, 09:59:35 AM
Right on. However, please remember that the purpose of the Forum is to bash Lenny Curry, oppose urban development (except for adaptive reuse of decrepit buildings), and decry taxpayer investments in the downtown area. Support for the mayor, the Jaguars, and urban redevelopment will not be tolerated.
Hot take! I like what you're sayin'
The forum is on fire this morning
Quote from: fieldafm on January 27, 2020, 08:58:53 AM
Quote from: Kerry on January 24, 2020, 03:53:19 PM
Stop the insanity and just send a Get Out of Jax offer to the Jags. They pay us $400 million cash, transfer full ownership of Dailys Place to the City, and they can walk away 10 years early.
I'll give you $100 to move
Do you have $100? Make it $150 and I'll delete my MetroJax account. I would move out of Jax for free if it was just up to me.
Quote from: Kerry on January 27, 2020, 07:07:54 AM
Quote from: heights unknown on January 26, 2020, 10:16:35 AM
Jacksonville...doomed. Hurts me to say that. I believe, sincerely, though the area doesn't staunchly or fully support them, when and if the Jags leave town, that will not only be the "nail in the coffin" for downtown Jacksonville, but for Jacksonville as a whole.
I beg to differ. The Jags leaving would be the best thing to happen to downtown Jax in 50 years. It is like getting out of an abusive relationship. The Jags were supposed to be "for better or worse", but the taxpayers gave the better and the Jags gave the worse.
Imagine where all the money spent on the Jags for 20 years (public, private, and corporate) would have gone if not sent down the NFL's black hole. The Jags are a luxury item and we can't even afford the necessities.
The NFL promised untold benefits and being on ESPN every week was supposed to deliver jobs, corporate relocations, civic pride, and be an economic boost to all of northeast Florida. Well, 20 years later none of that happened and all we have to show for it is a lot of debt. We still have to bail the team out and pay Amazon $20 million to provide us with same-day delivery.
Having the Jags out of the equation will force Jax leadership to refocus on the correct priorities.
I respect and somewhat agree with what you're saying Kerry, and I get it (what you are saying and where you are coming from). But from my own personal position and opinion, there was nothing going on in DT Jax in 1995 when I left for South Florida and the Jags were just coming on line; and...since that time, which is 25 years now, though the Jags have stayed in Jax, it was not the shot in the arm that everyone thought (and I thought that as well). DT Jax has awakened in some areas, and I am elated that there has been progress and some growth, though still slower and behind almost all of Florida's other major/significant cities; but on the whole, DT Jax is still way behind, unorganized as to who it is and where it wants to be, and getting rid of the Landing, though it was on the decline (they could have found a much more progressive and successful purpose), was just stupid stupid stupid in my opinion. Now that the Landing is gone, that has created a seriously huge bottomless hole in DT Jax; at least there was some action when the Landing existed, now it's nil to none after 5 PM or even earlier as I've seen when I've visited. So this is where I am coming from. I could be wrong Kerry, and I do agree somewhat with what you said and understand completely where you're coming from. I just hope THE DISTRICT, LOT J, and other things proposed will happen, and I also hope, though most of you want them gone, that the JAGS don't leave and somehow Khan and this silly Curry guy, get together and really make things happen, not only in the Stadium District but also in the North Bank Urban Core.
Quote from: Kerry on January 27, 2020, 07:23:20 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on January 27, 2020, 08:58:53 AM
Quote from: Kerry on January 24, 2020, 03:53:19 PM
Stop the insanity and just send a Get Out of Jax offer to the Jags. They pay us $400 million cash, transfer full ownership of Dailys Place to the City, and they can walk away 10 years early.
I'll give you $100 to move
Do you have $100? Make it $150 and I'll delete my MetroJax account. I would move out of Jax for free if it was just up to me.
Now now Kerry, let's not go to that extreme; everything is gonna be alright; trust me. I think I read something online about 65 story triplet towers being built on the Northbank; just playing. And so are you.
I'm a new urbanist. I actually don't like towers and prefer buildings top out at about 10 to 12 floors.
Sneaky interesting week for downtown.
City Council is deciding tomorrow whether to give the Armada land in the sports complex for their stadium/offices.
DIA evaluation committee is forming their recommendation for the Ford on Bay property.
Permitting underway for the Ventures apartments.
And, for better or worse, there's a lot of talk that the mayor's office and the Jags have moved from "very close" to imminent on the Lot J deal. Believe it when I see it, but I wouldn't be surprised to see an announcement by end of next week that the economic development agreement is ready for the DIA/City Council.
Sports complex or the Eastside site north of the Arlington Bridge Expressway?
Hopefully the mayor will iron out their Lot J deal and move it on to the DIA/City Council. I'm really interested to see how things play out with the council, given the JEA fiasco.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 28, 2020, 12:04:33 AM
Sports complex or the Eastside site north of the Arlington Bridge Expressway?
Hopefully the mayor will iron out their Lot J deal and move it on to the DIA/City Council. I'm really interested to see how things play out with the council, given the JEA fiasco.
Lot XX and Y, just north of the Fairgrounds.
On Lot J, I think we'll see the ol' artificial urgency come into play. Gotta get it signed immediately so we can start filling in that retention pond during the offseason.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on January 28, 2020, 12:26:05 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 28, 2020, 12:04:33 AM
Sports complex or the Eastside site north of the Arlington Bridge Expressway?
Hopefully the mayor will iron out their Lot J deal and move it on to the DIA/City Council. I'm really interested to see how things play out with the council, given the JEA fiasco.
Lot XX and Y, just north of the Fairgrounds.
On Lot J, I think we'll see the ol' artificial urgency come into play. Gotta get it signed immediately so we can start filling in that retention pond during the offseason.
So Eastside for the soccer stadium.
Yes. But, since it involves parking lots designated for the Sports Complex, they are considering the soccer site part of the Sports Complex.
Does Phase 1 of Lot J include replacement parking? With various projects, Sports Complex parking is being decreased: Lot J, the Hart Ramp (in the RV City area), and the soccer stadium.
They may be. I was looking at it in terms of further penetrating a historic African-American neighborhood and potential opportunities for withintrification in the Eastside as opposed to the type gentrification and displacement we've witnessed with Brooklyn.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 28, 2020, 08:09:46 AM
Does Phase 1 of Lot J include replacement parking?
The stormwater pond will be filled (or vaulted) to make way for a parking garage
Why build a garage on the pond site if they're talking about a phase 2 with buildings in that location?
Quote from: thelakelander on January 28, 2020, 10:15:02 AM
Why build a garage on the pond site if they're talking about a phase 2 with buildings in that location?
It's hard to tell what's even proposed anymore, but it looked to me like the parking garage had been pushed back to Phase II.
^Correct, the massive garage originally discussed for Phase I at the site of the retention pond has been replaced by an $8 million, 700-space surface lot in the same location.
That said, per the existing terms, the city will still be on the hook for $45 million in parking garages in Lot J proper, which will be built under some combination of the residential, hotel, and/or office buildings.
Place your bets on the over-under for the taxpayer portion at $325 million.
I'm going to guess Over.
^For Phase I, I think we already know what it's going to end up at, which is $233.3.
Plus the hidden costs (Hart Bridge ramp demolition, giving the Jags the land for free, any loss of parking revenue, etc.).
The revised $700 million figure that Lamping quoted recently was inclusive of a second $200 million phase of the project.
For that second phase, based on similar Cordish developments, I'd expect the primary ask (in addition to remediating the land and transferring it to the Jags at no cost) to come in the form of the massive parking garage needed to replace the 700 spots the development would build over and provide parking for residents/workers of the new buildings.
The big question would be if any components of phase one have shifted to phase 2? If so, how does the shift impact what the city is expected to subsidize? I hope we aren't subsidizing luxury apartment buildings and hotels. It's pretty clear that the market can support these types of uses with no or limited subsidies. If not, developments like the Residence Inn by Marriott and Vista Brooklyn would not be breaking ground without heavy incentives.
I am the target market for "luxury apartment" and there is no way I would live near the stadium. The last thing I want to live next door to is a giant bar/concert venue filled with drunks every weekend. I would prefer a grocery store next door. I lived at 220 for 3 years and if they hadn't screwed up the restaurant locations it would have been pretty good. If Vista hadn't been delayed so long I would have moved in there.
It never did make sense to have one massive garage that served the office tower, the residential tower and LiVE!. The office and residential buildings should have at least most of their parking in their own garages.
There will also be office/business towers in the mix yes? If it lasts and gets underway, that Lot J is going to be a big deal. Since they are building all of this on the old Stadium surface parking lots, will they have parking garages for the stadium parking or install additional extended surface lots?
Hearing that the public ask might decrease a bit in the final development agreement that goes to DIA and City Council.
Or, more accurately, shifted a bit to Phase II.
Office component seems to be out for Phase I, Live component might be slightly larger, and instead of a second 300-unit apartment tower replacing the office component for a total of 600 units, Phase I will be closer to 420 apartment units across multiple buildings.
Preliminary environmental testing is done, and the Jags want the agreement to be ready for review by end of month.
Based on Daily Place, there will be LIVE! and 600 apartment units in two or three mid-rise apartment buildings.
@ KenFSU...looks good anyway, regardless of which final direction they choose to go. Speaking for myself, I could never, ever imagine living in a high rise next to the football stadium, especially during the season. Those residential towers, I would imagine, will be built to some degree of "sound proof" specification(s). I might be 6 feet under when all is finished. I hope to get to see Jax finally flourish before I leave this earth. They just take so much damn time on stuff, don't plan or think it through, and waste so much time getting these developments underway, if they are legitimate at all.
Quote from: Kerry on January 28, 2020, 01:32:34 PM
I am the target market for "luxury apartment" and there is no way I would live near the stadium. The last thing I want to live next door to is a giant bar/concert venue filled with drunks every weekend. I would prefer a grocery store next door. I lived at 220 for 3 years and if they hadn't screwed up the restaurant locations it would have been pretty good. If Vista hadn't been delayed so long I would have moved in there.
You say you are the target market yet it is very evident you don't want to be living anywhere near any noise or vibrancy. The market for peace and quiet is well saturated around Jacksonville so I'm sure you'll find plenty of places that meet your needs.
^I wouldn't be surprised to see apartment residents given the same perks that Cordish offered JEA employees in their headquarters pitch.
Ticket and season pass discounts.
First shot at concert tickets.
Private member events at the Live! complex and stadium.
Food discounts within the sports complex.
Etc.
Quote from: minder on January 30, 2020, 04:47:37 PM
Quote from: Kerry on January 28, 2020, 01:32:34 PM
I am the target market for "luxury apartment" and there is no way I would live near the stadium. The last thing I want to live next door to is a giant bar/concert venue filled with drunks every weekend. I would prefer a grocery store next door. I lived at 220 for 3 years and if they hadn't screwed up the restaurant locations it would have been pretty good. If Vista hadn't been delayed so long I would have moved in there.
You say you are the target market yet it is very evident you don't want to be living anywhere near any noise or vibrancy. The market for peace and quiet is well saturated around Jacksonville so I'm sure you'll find plenty of places that meet your needs.
Or maybe you don't know what "luxury" means.
^Something like Two Light in KC is probably what we'll see, assuming it's built.
Same price tag ($120 million) and unit count (300) as what's proposed for Lot J.
https://youtu.be/YoGOUcm-Uc0
Two Light in KC? I'll believe it when I see it. More than likely, residential will be closer to the recently built multifamily stuff in the Southbank.
I still have a hard time understanding why we'd subsidize luxury housing regardless of where it is in town. That would be a historically horrible use, waste of tax dollars and a racial slap in the face in a city that has still not addressed infrastructure promises made to inner city neighborhoods 50 years ago.
Then there's the market side of things, we can give the Jags a butt load of cash for something like this but unless they're going to subsidize renters, the place will be sitting half empty. It's just really hard to image there's a demand in or near downtown for apartment units priced between $2,550 to $3,865/month for 1,098 SF to 1,212 SF of space?
Quote from: thelakelander on January 30, 2020, 08:00:59 PM
I still have a hard time understanding why we'd subsidize luxury housing regardless of where it is in town. That would be a historically horrible use, waste of tax dollars and a racial slap in the face in a city that has still not addressed infrastructure promises made to inner city neighborhoods 50 years ago.
There's been a similar debate intensifying in Kansas City with One Light, Two Light, and particularly Three Light.
Incentivizing Three Light was so unpopular that Cordish had to also agree to convert an old office building into affordable housing units.
QuoteIn tough debate, council OKs paying for Three Light garage, gets affordable housing
After a debate that turned bitterly personal for a few minutes, the Kansas City Council voted Thursday to build a $17.5 million underground garage for the developer of a luxury downtown apartment high rise.
As part of the deal, however, the city extracted some concessions from Cordish Companies, including an agreement to convert the Midland office building to 100 apartments for low and moderate income tenants.
But they were not enough for opponents of the legislation, who argued that the new vibrancy of downtown, and unmet needs in other areas of the city, made paying for the garage impossible to justify.
"The situation has changed," said Councilwoman Katheryn Shields.
By an 8-3 margin, the council agreed to stand by the key provision of a 2004 accord with Cordish, developer of the Power & Light District, to build garages for each of its new apartment towers. Its third such project, Three Light, is scheduled to begin construction later this year.
While many council members were unhappy with the 14-year-old deal, they said the city was obligated to keep its word and build the garage.
"It may not be popular. It may not be fun.....but I happen to have been brought up in a legal system where your word is your bond.......It's time to vote," said Mayor Sly James.
In a statement, Power & Light District executive director Nick Benjamin said: "Today's results were good for both the City of Kansas City and the Power & Light District, which is what you always hope for in a public-private partnership. We are looking forward to starting work on 3 Light and the Midland Apartments and to continuing to invest in our rapidly growing downtown."
The measure appeared to be a done deal a until few weeks ago. But two council members, Shields and Alissia Canady, raised persistent questions about the rich package of tax breaks and subsidies provided to Cordish under the 2004 agreement, along with the absence of affordable apartments in Three Light.
The two members led a move to prod City Manager Troy Schulte to renegotiate parts of the agreement with Cordish, which was struck when downtown Kansas City was a moribund collection of aging office buildings. In exchange for taking a gamble on downtown revitalization, the company secured a rich package of subsidies and incentives, including the city's responsibility for the garages.
The company held fast on the question of low-income units in Three Light, contending that they would make project unworkable financially. Cordish agreed to convert Midland as part of building Three Light at the corner of Truman Road and Grand Boulevard.
The renegotiated deal also relieved the city of operations and routine maintenance of the two existing Cordish garages and the one to come with Three Light. The company and the city agreed to secure approval of a new 1 cent sales tax for the central business district and split revenues estimated at about $1 million a year.
City officials estimate that those two provisions, in addition to higher rental payments to the city from Cordish, will come close to covering the $1.4 million in annual debt service on the bonds that will finance the Three Light garage. The pact also cuts the 99-year term of the 2004 deal by half and caps the city's obligation to build garages when Cordish builds its sixth apartment tower downtown — if it ever does.
But Canady and Shields excoriated the deal, arguing that the city was still giving away the store. They pointed out that the city's future obligations to Cordish — three garages and additional money to support parking at Midland — could cost the city at least $80 million.
The two members also pointed out that the Midland deal is contingent on Cordish receiving an exemption from paying sales taxes on construction materials for rehabbing the 1920s-era building. Such exemptions are routinely granted, but Canady said it reflected a lack of good faith on the company's part.
"Cordish essentially said, give us $80 million and we'll build you 100 affordable units," said Canady.
The debate over Three Light took a nasty turn at the council business session that precedes the formal legislative meeting. Canady accused the mayor of negligence in supporting the agreement, and not acting in the best interests of the whole city.
"It's all about the financials," she said, not housing or code enforcement or other unmet needs.
"I always act in the best interests of the city," James retorted. "And I was acting in the best interests of the city before you got your law license."
Cordish is also seeking a 100 percent tax abatement for 25 years on Three Light because it is located in an area declared blighted. With a 25-year abatement, the Kansas City School District would receive $2.7 million in taxes from Three Light. Without the subsidy, KCPS would receive an estimated $14.7 million during the same period.
Other government jurisdictions dependent on tax revenues are contesting the abatement. "My position is based on the ethical premise that public funds should not be used to subsidize luxury housing," Bruce Eddy, executive director of the Jackson County Community Mental Health Board, said in a letter to a special advisory board that will meet next month to consider the proposal.
As part of its application for the tax abatement, Cordish described the amenities that will be available to Three Light tenants, including an eighth floor club room, management office, theater room, demonstration kitchen, outdoor pool, deck, conference room and fitness center.
"Each residential unit will include floor-to-ceiling glass, luxury finishes, materials and appliances, including quartz counter tops, stainless steel appliances, luxury vinyl flooring, washer-dryer in each unit, tile in bathrooms, and similar finishes and materials."
https://www.kansascity.com/news/article206278979.html
Quote from: thelakelander on January 30, 2020, 08:00:59 PM
It's just really hard to image there's a demand in or near downtown for apartment units priced between $2,550 to $3,865/month for 1,098 SF to 1,212 SF of space?
If that is the price point they are targeting no one will live there.
^That's the leasing rates of the KC example Ken_FSU used as what the residential component at Lot J could resemble.
I just question anything at the Sports District being comparable to the Power & Light District because the surrounding context is dramatically different than anything in Jax, especially a stadium surrounded by surface parking lots. The urban core of KC is walkable, vibrant and has been for years. The P&L sits dab smack in the middle of a lot of things that were already happening.
Jax's downtown is podunk in comparison, in terms of density, population and scale. All of those things play a significant role with market conditions. At this point, we're simply not there and no matter how much money we throw at Khan and the Jags, that's an issue that can't be resolved overnight, no matter how many billions someone is worth.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 31, 2020, 09:36:57 AM
^That's the leasing rates of the KC example Ken_FSU used as what the residential component at Lot J could resemble.
I just question anything at the Sports District being comparable to the Power & Light District because the surrounding context is dramatically different than anything in Jax, especially a stadium surrounded by surface parking lots. The urban core of KC is walkable, vibrant and has been for years. The P&L sits dab smack in the middle of a lot of things that were already happening.
Jax's downtown is podunk in comparison, in terms of density, population and scale. All of those things play a significant role with market conditions. At this point, we're simply not there and no matter how much money we throw at Khan and the Jags, that's an issue that can't be resolved overnight, no matter how many billions someone is worth.
Jacksonville needs to get serious about who our peer cities actually are as it relates to downtown. We need to learn to crawl before we can run.
In terms of where downtown (I mean the Northbank) is today and not where it was 40 or 50 years ago, cities like Dayton, Grand Rapids, Raleigh, Rochester, Norfolk, Buffalo, Omaha, Louisville, etc. would be in the range moreso than the Kansas City, Nashville, Charlotte, Austin, Columbus, etc. Back in the 1990s they may have been applicable but we didn't tilt the needle much during the 2000s and they did. So what we see in these places are the result of a 20-30 year head start. So, in regards to a Live! or Cordish mixed-use development, it would be interesting to see how they've done in some of these other places with smaller DTs.
I wouldn't include Omaha in that list. Downtown Omaha is pretty amazing with lots of development going on for the past 15 years.
https://www.eomahaforums.com/viewforum.php?f=11
Quote from: thelakelander on January 30, 2020, 08:00:59 PM
Two Light in KC? I'll believe it when I see it. More than likely, residential will be closer to the recently built multifamily stuff in the Southbank.
I still have a hard time understanding why we'd subsidize luxury housing regardless of where it is in town. That would be a historically horrible use, waste of tax dollars and a racial slap in the face in a city that has still not addressed infrastructure promises made to inner city neighborhoods 50 years ago.
Then there's the market side of things, we can give the Jags a butt load of cash for something like this but unless they're going to subsidize renters, the place will be sitting half empty. It's just really hard to image there's a demand in or near downtown for apartment units priced between $2,550 to $3,865/month for 1,098 SF to 1,212 SF of space?
I live in a one bedroom luxury apartment in Los Angeles and actually pay LESS than that for a similar amount of space. They have lost their minds if those are the actual prices.
Hearing that the public ask might decrease a bit in the final development agreement that goes to DIA and City Council.
Or, more accurately, shifted a bit to Phase II.
Office component seems to be out for Phase I, Live component might be slightly larger, and instead of a second 300-unit apartment tower replacing the office component for a total of 600 units, Phase I will be closer to 420 apartment units across multiple buildings.
Preliminary environmental testing is all but done, and the Jags want the agreement to be ready for review by end of month.
Apartment towers or stick frame mid-rise, similar to 220 Riverside and the recent Spandrel proposal? Wish Khan would really put his money and where his mouth is (like Dan Gilbert did with his companies in Detroit) and make Flex N Gate the office tenant.
Between Lot J and The Ford on Bay, the city will heavily subsidize low-rise stick built apartment buildings that are being built in droves everywhere else in the country WITHOUT tax concessions and grants.
They're also being built in Jax's urban core without incentives. Subsidizing market rate things at the expense of those doing it with their own money is the ultimate example of a game of winners and losers.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2020, 09:35:20 AM
They're also being built in Jax's urban core without incentives. Subsidizing market rate things at the expense of those doing it with their own money is the ultimate example of a game of winners and losers.
Pretty sure Vestcor's not losing any sleep over that, considering that the city just finds ways to give them bids.
Even though the total is still exorbitant, I feel like the optics might have been slightly better if the Jags asked the city to put $100 million into the Live! arena and entertainment complex that will be publicly owned, plus $92 million in infrastructure for the larger Lot J development (utilities, sidewalks, roads, parking, etc), rather than asking the city pay to pay half of the $100 million construction cost for the Live! complex, along with a vague $60 million grant to facilitate development of the private residential and hotel components.
405 residential units is the latest number, btw.
I think it's less about a decision to subsidize housing, and more of a larger conversation about how comfortable we are as a city subsidizing the Jaguars over the coming decades. Take emotion out of it, and Khan and Lamping aren't wrong. 60% of gate revenue from Jags games goes to the organization, with the other 40% going into the NFL's revenue share. As more and more new mega-stadiums are built and local revenue around the league increases, there's going to be more and more pressure on the Jags to get gate receipts for that 40% share up (probably a disproportionate amount of pressure, as their merchandise share is probably bottom of the league as well). And as local revenue for all these other teams goes up, so will the salary cap, putting more and more pressure on the Jags to increase their own share of local revenues to stay competitive in terms of spend.
Jacksonville is a challenging market for the NFL that extends past simple attendance numbers to corporate sponsorships, PSLs, merch sales, ticket pricing, etc. Seeking out these alternate revenue sources like Daily's Place, Jacksonville Live!, and land development makes all the sense in the world for the Jags, and is legitimately as big of a risk for the Jags as it is for the city.
But the NFL ain't cheap, and I really do think we need to have a serious conversation as a city about what we're willing to spend to lock the NFL in for another 25 years and what it would take to make that legally binding. Seems patently absurd to invest so heavily in Lot J without assurances that the Jags won't bolt five years after it's completed when the stadium lease expires. Would love to see Lot J and stadium improvements packaged into one agreement, tied to a lease extension and a guarantee to keep X number of home games in Jacksonville each season, with a funding mechanism identified, that the public could vote on.
"The City of Jacksonville will provide $_____ million in incentives, funded through _____ in tax abatements, ______ in bed tax, _______ in upfront cash, and a one-cent sales tax in the sports and entertainment district; the Jaguars will develop a sports and entertainment complex, 405 residential units, a 200-room hotel, upgrade the stadium to 2020 NFL Standards, and extend the stadium lease to year __________ with at least __________ regular-season home games played in Jacksonville through end-of-lease."
Put all the cards on the table now and let the people have their say.
Opportunity cost is going to be pretty high, needs to be more than a one-man decision.
Let's collectively decide now, before we start piecemealing hundreds of millions of dollars here and there without any protection on our end.
The reality is that Jax will never reach a point where Khan will stop milking the city dry. Jax will remain a smaller market in the NFL for the foreseeable future. I don't see an avenue where piecemealing subsidies won't continue. Whatever the profit is for them, there will always be a reason or excuse for more subsidies to increase it.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2020, 08:56:35 PM
The reality is that Jax will never reach a point where Khan will stop milking the city dry. Jax will remain a smaller market in the NFL for the foreseeable future. I don't see an avenue where piecemealing subsidies won't continue. Whatever the profit is for them, there will always be a reason or excuse for more subsidies to increase it.
It is the NFL business model. Name an NFL city that isn't under constant pressure to fork over tax dollars.
Quote from: Kerry on February 06, 2020, 10:53:25 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2020, 08:56:35 PM
The reality is that Jax will never reach a point where Khan will stop milking the city dry. Jax will remain a smaller market in the NFL for the foreseeable future. I don't see an avenue where piecemealing subsidies won't continue. Whatever the profit is for them, there will always be a reason or excuse for more subsidies to increase it.
It is the NFL business model. Name an NFL city that isn't under constant pressure to fork over tax dollars.
Yeah, this is certainly not unique to Jax. Heck, look at the beer prices in the venues, the NFL gets everyone where they can.
Still fun to go to an occasional game, entertainment comes at a cost unless you wanna watch it at home, then it's cheap.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on February 07, 2020, 07:32:58 AM
Quote from: Kerry on February 06, 2020, 10:53:25 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2020, 08:56:35 PM
The reality is that Jax will never reach a point where Khan will stop milking the city dry. Jax will remain a smaller market in the NFL for the foreseeable future. I don't see an avenue where piecemealing subsidies won't continue. Whatever the profit is for them, there will always be a reason or excuse for more subsidies to increase it.
It is the NFL business model. Name an NFL city that isn't under constant pressure to fork over tax dollars.
Yeah, this is certainly not unique to Jax. Heck, look at the beer prices in the venues, the NFL gets everyone where they can.
Still fun to go to an occasional game, entertainment comes at a cost unless you wanna watch it at home, then it's cheap.
Yeah, true, you can watch it at home for much much cheaper.......if it's not blacked out!
Interesting take on the Jaguars and Shad Khan's constant itching for more taxpayer funds:
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20200206/nate-monroe-is-jacksonville-good-enough-for-shad-khan (https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20200206/nate-monroe-is-jacksonville-good-enough-for-shad-khan)
Excerpt (emphasis added):
Quote
Looking at the creepy mega-yacht Shad Khan docks each year in downtown for several weeks — apparently no land-based residence here is worthy — it's hard not to dwell on Khan's oft-stated commitment to Jacksonville. He must know this: People here wonder about his plans for the future because he betrays so little interest in the place, except when he insults it for lacking "mojo" or a nice hotel, or when he's asking for money from local taxpayers.
It seems like Jacksonville just isn't going to be good enough.
What did Khan expect, exactly, when he purchased the Jacksonville Jaguars in 2011 at a bargain — about $770 million? Today this profitable franchise is worth far more: North of $2 billion, according to Forbes' 2018 estimate. This stunning wealth — built upon money paid by local fans and, more critically, a mountain of tax revenue they have no choice but to provide — has apparently not slaked Khan's limitless thirst.
To thank Jacksonville for this generosity, to show fans how much he appreciates their dedication, Khan is slowly abandoning the city — a city upon which he is making increasing demands for massive public subsidies to prop up his development plans...
Jax will never be good enough for the Jags to become a top half revenue producing NFL team. This market is one of the smallest by far and the others aren't exactly shrinking as Jax grows. An expensive Landing and heavily subsidized stick frame apartment complex and hotel in the middle of a stadium parking lot isn't going to resolve Jax's insignificance on a national level. If people want an NFL franchise, expect to keep backing up the brinks truck. It is what it is.
Wow. That really summed it up Lake. Thank you!!
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on February 07, 2020, 11:24:33 PM
Interesting take on the Jaguars and Shad Khan's constant itching for more taxpayer funds:
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20200206/nate-monroe-is-jacksonville-good-enough-for-shad-khan
Nate Monroe has been a huge breath of fresh air for the Times-Union, but I've gotta say, this is a pretty one-sided piece that gets quite a bit of factual information incorrect while missing a lot of the nuance and economic reality associated with playing host to a professional sports franchise in 2020.
I feel like he's really hating the player (Shad Khan), rather than hating the game.
Column in quotes, thoughts outside:
QuoteJaguars owner Shad Khan asks more and more from the city, and in return gives less and less.
Looking at the creepy mega-yacht Shad Khan docks each year in downtown for several weeks — apparently no land-based residence here is worthy — it's hard not to dwell on Khan's oft-stated commitment to Jacksonville. He must know this: People here wonder about his plans for the future because he betrays so little interest in the place, except when he insults it for lacking "mojo" or a nice hotel, or when he's asking for money from local taxpayers.
Billionaires live near their money. Shad Khan's primary business isn't the Jaguars, it's Flex-N-Gate. That's how made his billions, and continues to make his billions. Additionally, the guy has businesses all over the world, most recently the Black News channel, and is continously on the move. Who cares if he chooses to live on his yacht during his time in Jacksonville during the football season? Home ownership in the area is completely immaterial to whether or not he's committed to keeping the Jaguars in Jacksonville. What good did Art Modell's house in Cleveland do for the city when he moved the Browns to Baltimore?
Tony Khan, Mark Lamping, Kelly Flanagan, and the entirety of the team that Khan has surrounded himself with to run the franchise do have homes here in Jacksonville.
Shad Khan's communications and optics are often pretty bad, but Monroe is also selectively choosing to ignore all the complimentary things that Shad Khan has said, and continues to say, about the city, its potential, and our amazing fanbase (most recently, see his statement about the crowd at the final home game of the season against the Colts, and his committment to bringing a Super Bowl championship to Jacksonville). The hotel comment was in pretty poor taste (particularly when the sports complex is literally built off the back of local hoteliers and the bed-tax), but was Shad Khan wrong when he suggested 7 years ago that the city was lacking the "mojo" of other metropolitan areas and challenged Jacksonville to step it up?
QuoteIt seems like Jacksonville just isn't going to be good enough.
What did Khan expect, exactly, when he purchased the Jacksonville Jaguars in 2011 at a bargain — about $770 million? Today this profitable franchise is worth far more: North of $2 billion, according to Forbes' 2018 estimate. This stunning wealth — built upon money paid by local fans and, more critically, a mountain of tax revenue they have no choice but to provide — has apparently not slaked Khan's limitless thirst.
Again, I think this first paragraph is conflating Jacksonville's worth as a city with Jacksonville's challenges fitting in economically with the modern-day NFL landscape. We're a really small market, with a comparitively small corporate sponsor base, and a comparitively small national fanbase, and a whole lot of transplants. All of these things make it disproportionately difficult for Jacksonville to contribute their fair share to the league revenue share, and disproportionately difficult to keep up on local revenues (necessary to hit a continuously rising salary cap as new stadiums around the league come on line).
In terms of the rising value of the franchise, again, I think it's overly simplistic to say that the team's ballooned in value by a factor of three on the back of money paid by local fans. First, the primary reason that the franchise has tripled in value - and all sports franchies have risen significantly in value - is obviously the gigantic television deals that sports leagues are recieving as more and more consumers cut the cord and cable and streaming providers pay obscene amounts of money for live sports programming considered to be more DVR-proof than any other content in 2020. I strongly believe that NFL cities deserve a cut of the television pie for playing backdrop for the the league, but that's completely beside the point here.
When Nate talks about the Jags increasing in value because of the "mountain of tax revenue" that locals "have no choice but to provide," I also think he misses the point that nearly all of the stadium improvements put in place since Khan took ownership have been either privately funded ($20 million for the locker rooms, $32 million toward the video boards, $45 million toward the Daily's project by Khan) or funded through the bed tax, which isn't collected from locals, and is legally required to go toward the sports complex at this point.
QuoteTo thank Jacksonville for this generosity, to show fans how much he appreciates their dedication, Khan is slowly abandoning the city — a city upon which he is making increasing demands for massive public subsidies to prop up his development plans.
Several years ago, Khan — whose company Flex-N-Gate is headquartered in Illinois, and who retains residences in Chicago and Naples, but owns no property to his name in Jacksonville — ripped away one home game from the city each year and moved it to London to make more money.
Once again, jumping to a lot of conclusions here to say that Khan is "slowly abandoning Jacksonville," while the franchise is in talks with the city literally every single day about partnering on $500 million in development anchored at the stadium and practically begging to begin negotiations to extend the least beyond 2029. It's fine to be opposed to Lot J, but Khan pushing to pump $250 million in private capital into Jacksonville adjacent to TIAA Bank Field is the antithesis of "abandoning the city."
And, again, yes, the Jags moved a home game to London to "make more money," but that statement deserves to be put in more economic context re: local revenues and the race to keep up in the NFL, rather than presented as if it's purely a greed play.
QuoteKhan announced this week the Jaguars will play two home games in London next season. He then ignorantly proclaimed he expected fans would have a positive reaction to this repudiation. They have revolted.
Terrible optics, agreed.
QuoteThe explanation for this is a bunch of mumbo-jumbo about "stabilizing" the franchise and meeting a contrived goal of moving the team out of the bottom quartile among teams in revenue — contrived because the team is profitable and the only person who cares about this would be, well, Khan.
31 other NFL owners locked into a revenue share with a small-market franchise would disagree with that last sentence.
Stabilizing the franchise isn't mumbo-jumbo.
We're not going to be good every year (at this rate, maybe every ten years). No team can be. In a market this size for a franchise this new, if the team shits the bed, we can't realistically fill a 65,000 seat stadium every Sunday like multi-generation teams in metropolitan areas of 5 million people.
The Jags are simply trying to build dependable, consistent revenue streams to stabilize their local revenues and weather ebbs and flows in the football business. It's fine to not want to publicly subsidize the efforts, but there's a purpose behind it beyond just grabbing for cash.
QuoteTo be clear: Khan has overseen a dysfunctional organization, refused to hold key leaders accountable for this dysfunction, and, predictably, this negligence has bled onto the field one soul-sucking season after the next.
And yet the fans persist. They endure brutal, vomit-inducing North Florida heat to watch the Jaguars fumble hope away. To the cheapskates' credit, the Jaguars and stadium management company did change their policy last year to "permit" fans to bring one 16.9 ounce plastic bottle of water per game.
Agreed.
QuoteIt is, of course, not one of those punishing hot games in the early part of the season that will be moved to London. The fans can keep those.
This is framed as if the Jags refuse to move the September games to London and can freely choose when the games take place. The NFL International Series - by mandate of the league and I believe availabiilty of Wembley - takes place in October. Every single year.
QuoteSpeaking of water, so too flow public subsidies.
While he is pirating a second home game away to London, Khan is also asking City Hall to fork over more than $200 million — most of it in cash — to pay for a conceptual development by the stadium so his bottom line will get even fatter.
Everybody's revenues are getting fatter in the NFL, which is pushing the cost of staying competitive and keeping up in a small market even higher. Khan's investment might have appreciated in value if he were to sell it (which he isn't - he fought for over a decade to land an NFL team and Tony Khan has already been identified as his successor), but I'd guess that the operating profits for the Jags aren't even Top-5 in the city. It's very, very expensive to run a competitive NFL franchise in 2020. If we want to stay in the game - which again, is a conversation we need to have as a city - we need to realize that it's an expensive game to be in.
QuoteIn a city that can't afford to remove failing septic tanks that leak nitrogen into prized waterways, where some neighborhoods rely on aging wells that can turn children's teeth orange, which still doesn't have paved roads in places they were promised decades ago — in this town, Khan expects taxpayers to provide about two years' worth of the municipal infrastructure budget so he can build a multi-story sports bar and some offices and condos.
Strawman argument here. It's not an either/or, at least not at this point. We don't know the funding mechanism yet. The only thing we've heard from City Council is that the bed tax might be leveraged to pay for some or all of the development, as will property tax abatements. If it is bed tax, that money cannot be used for septic tanks or paved roads. It has to stay in the sports complex or be used for other tourism-related expenditures. All the math needs to be carefully vetted, as the public contribution will likely come on the back of projections for incremental revenue that the Jags believe will be earned as a result of Lot J, but it's very, very premature to suggest that $200 million in cash is going to come straight from the city's CIP.
Also, it's apartments at Lot J, not condos. Always has been.
QuoteThis sum doesn't capture the totality of the seizure of public resources to Khan's bank account. The city is also planning to take down a portion of the Hart Bridge's elevated ramps so that, perhaps one day, Khan can build a high rise or two on the riverfront — which is prone to flooding more and more each year as sea level rise continues.
Wait, how can Shad Khan build high rises on the riverfront one day while simultaneously slowly abandoning Jacksonville and wanting nothing to do with the city?
Also, again, we're conveniently leaving out the part where locals are only paying for $12.5 million of this project. Curry successfully lobbied the remaining two-thirds of the funding from the state and feds. The Shipyards have been barren for decades, and even if Khan left town tomorrow, this project might be the smartest demolition in downtown Jacksonville in decades (even if the execution, in typical Jax fashion, leaves a lot to be desired). It opens up 70 acres of neglected riverfront land for eventual development at half the public ask for demolishing a structurally sound Landing. This is a steal, and Curry should be commended in this case for securing the majority of funding from outside the city.
QuoteSimple accounting also doesn't include the fact that losing a second home game takes money away from Jacksonville, both the hospitality industry and City Hall — the loss of revenue makes it harder to pay off debt, like the debt the city still has outstanding on TIAA Bank Field.
Which is why, as the Jags have explicitly stated, they have taken it upon themselves to bring in large stadium events like the Rolling Stones, Lynyrd Skynyrd, and Green Day to offset those losses. They have also partnered with the Gator Bowl to help bolster that event.
QuoteMayor Lenny Curry, of course, is cowed. He issued a statement supportive of moving a second home game to London. The only thing worse than Khan's announcement itself was dreading the arrival of the legion Jaguars apologists. They didn't disappoint.
That is not the way it has to be. When the Tampa Bay Rays announced an interest in splitting their baseball season with Montreal last year, St. Petersburg Mayor Rick Kriseman flatly rejected it. Must feel nice to have a strong mayor.
Apples and oranges on Kriseman. The reason Kriseman flatly rejected it was because the Rays had a binding clause in their lease at Tropicana Field that prohibited the franchise from playing home games outside of St. Pete through 2027. We have no such provision in our lease agreement with the Jaguars.
It's also a bit disingenous to say that Curry issued a statement supportive of the Jags moving a second home game to London. What he actually said was, "As a fan, you want as many home games as you can have, I'm a fan first, I think most people know that. They're an organization that is working off a balance sheet, making decisions based on the stability of the franchise, and they said all along that they're going to do things that stabilizes the franchise financially, so that it remains in Jacksonville. The things that they've done have demonstrated that to me."
Understanding of the business decision? Sure. Cowing and supportive? I'm not seeing it.
QuoteYes, Khan does nice things for veterans and children: All NFL teams donate to charity.
He seems to have pulled back on the modest investments he made in Jacksonville unrelated to football or the stadium.*
Let me fix this:
*When the business he invested in failed to make a single payment on the loan for over two years. Khan still helped said business re-aquire the Barnett building, and without his cooperation, it would probably still be on the list for potential demolition.
QuoteNow, it looks like it's all about building things adjacent to the stadium, and not without the city as an equal financing partner, at minimum. This has not always worked out well.
The city provided $45 million for Khan to build the amphitheater and flex field — theoretically half the cost of this development. City Council members were shown a rendering of a stunning development that bears little resemblance to the hunk of metal and concrete that sits there today — and not in a good way. It's hard to believe those buildings cost anywhere near $90 million to construct.
First, they didn't cost $90 million, they cost $65 million.
$25 million from the project went into redoing the club suites.
Secondly, whether or not you like the eventual design (I happen to think Daily's Place in particular is pretty rad and significantly more intimate and practically integrated into the stadium than the weird single level amphitheater in that first rendering), and whether or not you like the lineup or artists (*coughBill*cough*), it's really hard to argue that Daily's Place hasn't been a huge net positive for Jacksonville.
A need for a venue that size has been identified since at least the 1990s, the Jags split the cost, it was funded through the bed tax, and it's already proven to be one of the most successful amphitheaters out there in terms of revenue.
QuoteAnd since the city owns the amphitheater, it generates no property taxes. Just like the future entertainment center Khan wants to build — the thing that has the highest likelihood of being built first.
Nothing a the sports complex in terms of venues generates property taxes. Why should the city-owned amphitheater be any different?
QuoteIt would be a huge mistake for the City Council and mayor to sign off on the next round of massive subsidies without demanding a long, hard-to-break extension on the stadium lease, or some other legal guarantee the team must remain in Jacksonville — home games intact — for decades.
I've been saying this all along - 100% agree with Nate here. This is what we should be screaming from the rooftops. Lot J and stadium upgrades need to be collectively tied into a lease extension and home-game guarantee, rather than piecemealed with no assurances from the Jags in return. And the public deserves the right to vote on whether the agreed-upon cost and funding mechanisms are worth keeping the Jags here through 20XX.
QuoteKhan bought the team from the Weavers, a prominent and lionized Jacksonville family. And deservedly so. The day Khan announced the second home game taking place in London, the Weavers announced they were making a $3 million donation to Jacksonville's Cummer Museum of Art & Gardens.
It's hokey to state this as a sentence, but this is bigger than Khan. Or, rather, it should be. It is Jacksonville that provides the team value — and an identity — and it is because of Jacksonville that the Jaguars are relevant. Not the other way around. The team makes money not because of Khan's business acumen but because there is a dedicated fan base here, and because it's incredibly difficult to lose money in a cartel-style league that splits a large pot of revenue, where franchises often do not pay property taxes like typical businesses and extract hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars from municipalities.
Khan calls his yacht "Kismet," an unusual word that means fate, or destiny.
What does the future hold for Jacksonville and Khan? Unfortunately, it looks like an open question.
Again, love Nate, but I feel like he's saying on one hand that the team is valuable and relevant because of the local fanbase, but on the other hand he's saying that it's basically impossible for a team to not be valuable and successful because of the NFL monopoly machine.
Not hating, I just think we need to all take emotion out of the conversation for a second (an admittedly difficult thing to do), and try to come together on what needs to be a much bigger discussion.
The Jags need to be more sensitive to the local fanbase.
And the local fanbase needs to stop living in this mindset where Khan is actively trying to swindle the city before moving the Jags to London.
It's because of Shad Khan (and Wayne Weaver) that the Jags never bolted for Los Angeles.
And if he really wanted to move the franchise to London, he wouldn't be risking a lot of money and ponying up a lot of private capital on the sports complex to create permanent, stable revenue streams in Northeast Florida.
Public contributions towards Lot J, stadium upgrades, and the Shipyards, and what that means in turn for the stadium lease and Jacksonville's future as an NFL city needs to ultimately be a rational, publicly-debated business decision from the city, divorced from emotion, and fear, and anger, and resentment.
Fear of losing the franchise can easily result in a bum deal for the city, just like buying into the London-conspiracy and bitterly turning on Shad Khan can easily result in a self-fulfilling prophecy.
One other factor in this situation that hasn't been brought up is that the Jaguars have consistently spent to the salary cap in the last several years under Khan. Obviously the decision making and allocation of resources has been flawed, but the Jaguars haven't scrimped on spending money on the roster.
Wayne Weaver is a magnificent citizen philanthropist, but in his last several years as owner, the Jaguars spent well below the cap. I'm sure he wouldn't have moved a game to London or sought city money for stadium and surrounding area improvements, but if the Jaguars' stadium situation now were identical to what it were in 2011, and their roster expenditures in the same proportion to the NFL average as they were in 2009-11, there'd be a lot more doubt about a sustainable future for them in Jacksonville. (Before the Julius Thomas, Malik Jackson, Calais Campbell, etc. signings of 2015-17, there was overt talk on football websites that Jacksonville would never compete for the top free agents on the market because it wouldn't try, and there was genuine surprise when the Jaguars landed Thomas in 2015. He obviously didn't work out, but was the first example of Jacksonville signing a highly sought-after free agent.)
It's been asked why Khan is pushing for London/Lot J when teams with similar or worse average attendance do not do anything comparable. Some of those teams are about to move into opulent new stadia. Some, as Ken said, are in large markets with generational fan bases. Others like Cincinnati have a long-standing reputation for being content to spend as little as possible on the team.
Of course the NFL obfuscates actual financial info, but I take Khan's references to "remaining competitive" as a sotto voce way of saying it's not going to remain possible to spend to the cap without finding new and creative ways to expand local revenue. Someone asked on jaguars.com what's wrong with being in the bottom quartile of revenue when 8 teams always are going to be there; those teams, in general, tend to be the ones that don't invest as much in players. Had Coughlin and co. not done such an inept job of managing the cap the last two years, the argument for the London arrangement and Lot J probably would be going down at least somewhat more smoothly. I really see opinion on Lot J as having shifted dramatically because the 2018-19 seasons turned into debacles.
I don't mean this as a defense of the second London game or of the Lot J concept, or of Khan's at times shockingly tone-deaf approach. I just think it's worth including in the overall view of the situation.
Ken's final line above summed it up nicely. I don't want the city to make a Neville Chamberlain deal, but destructive self-fulfilling prophecies can easily happen when Jacksonville's long-standing self-doubt starts to become a perpetual motion machine, as very nearly happened in 2009 with the Los Angeles conspiracies.
Khan should leave Lot J alone because there is a pond where a large flock of geese have been living way before he bought the team for cheap. I tried to contact PETA about this but they don't want to help me take action to stop this guy from messing with nature and its habitat. I hope the city stops this guy from destroying Lot J.
^ Matt, please elaborate, not because I'm disagreeing but because I'd like to know what specific CBA terms you find to have been dramatically more favorable to Khan than to Weaver.
Agreed with you on your point about the 2021 CBA.
Incidentally, I do not mean any of my comments above as an insult to Weaver, who has been an extraordinary Jacksonville citizen. I'd say that the Weavers' philanthropy since coming to town ranks as the leading tangible benefit of the Jaguars' presence in the city.
QuoteI really see opinion on Lot J as having shifted dramatically because the 2018-19 seasons turned into debacles.
I would add that public opinion may also have shifted substantially after the JEA debacle and other recent unpopular and/or scandalous incidents (Downtown demolition derby, Hart Bridge ramps, denial of the School Board referendum, pension kick-the-can-down-the-road, underfunded services and infrastructure, parking garage fiasco, Kids Hope Alliance breakdown, etc.).
I think local taxpayers now have a much more heightened realization that our municipal leadership rarely acts, negotiates or allocates precious resources for the benefit of the greater community but more so for special interests and good friends of said leaders. It's no secret that Khan falls into the special interest and friends category making any deal now with him subject to much more intense scrutiny and skepticism than before JEA, etc.
And, whether allocated from the bed tax or other City, State or Federal revenues, any dollars allocated to Khan are dollars not available for other investments in the community. It is reasonable to ask why is Khan the default number 1 priority over all other options without any real vetting or discussion?
As Nate points out too, Khan and his team haven't exactly handled their PR, lately, very well. Add that to their development partner, Mayor Curry, and you don't have a deep reservoir of good will at the moment.
^ Yes, I agree; all of those factors contributed to the shift in public opinion. My statement was too myopically centered on the Jaguars' situation.
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on February 08, 2020, 05:55:57 PM
^ Yes, I agree; all of those factors contributed to the shift in public opinion. My statement was too myopically centered on the Jaguars' situation.
JEA situation certainly didn't help, but I agree with your original sentiment that this would have been a much, much easier sell to the public two years ago when sentiment toward the Jags was at close to an all time high. It's a lot harder to come with your hand out after another awful, losing season that saw Foles go down in game one, Jalen traded, Yann not paid, Coughlin canned after the NFLPA stuff comes out, and Doug and Dave retained.
Even when Curry had the Mission Accomplished press conference announcing the preliminary agreement and the $230 million ask, the sentiment toward the project wasn't as bad as it has been these last few weeks.
Of all people, I think Sam Kouvaris actually had one of the more reasoned takes on the situation here:
https://www.jacksonville.com/sports/20200208/sam-kouvaris-jaguars-reassurances-cant-erase-sting-of-london-news
Quote from: G.O.D.F.A.T.H.A. on February 08, 2020, 04:21:34 PM
Khan should leave Lot J alone because there is a pond where a large flock of geese have been living way before he bought the team for cheap. I tried to contact PETA about this but they don't want to help me take action to stop this guy from messing with nature and its habitat. I hope the city stops this guy from destroying Lot J.
Dude. They're geese.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on February 08, 2020, 07:38:51 PM
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on February 08, 2020, 05:55:57 PM
^ Yes, I agree; all of those factors contributed to the shift in public opinion. My statement was too myopically centered on the Jaguars' situation.
JEA situation certainly didn't help, but I agree with your original sentiment that this would have been a much, much easier sell to the public two years ago when sentiment toward the Jags was at close to an all time high. It's a lot harder to come with your hand out after another awful, losing season that saw Foles go down in game one, Jalen traded, Yann not paid, Coughlin canned after the NFLPA stuff comes out, and Doug and Dave retained.
Even when Curry had the Mission Accomplished press conference announcing the preliminary agreement and the $230 million ask, the sentiment toward the project wasn't as bad as it has been these last few weeks.
Of all people, I think Sam Kouvaris actually had one of the more reasoned takes on the situation here:
https://www.jacksonville.com/sports/20200208/sam-kouvaris-jaguars-reassurances-cant-erase-sting-of-london-news
Super article by Sam; I hope Shad and Mark Lampshade read it, and are pondering seriously over it; but I doubt it. We shall see what happens. One thing I've learned in these long years on this dirtball; as the song that was performed in the movie cabaret goes: "money makes the world go around!"
Please click below!
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=money+makes+the+world+go+around&docid=608034692804575853&mid=C605A3D34A90D4E61740C605A3D34A90D4E61740&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
If Shad is not making money, trust me, there will be no Lot J, or any, or any other future investments relative to the Jaguars remaining in Jacksonville. I've seen this type of thing before and then it didn't work out and the Owners or Corporations pull up chock and move anyway even after they said they wouldn't. I hope it all works out and am hoping for the ultimate best for Jacksonvillians; but don't get your hopes up high.
So...what is to keep the Jags from moving after Lot J is developed anyhow? The Jags could leave and still keep half the revenue from Lot J and Daily's Place.
Quote from: Kerry on February 10, 2020, 07:08:48 PM
So...what is to keep the Jags from moving after Lot J is developed anyhow? The Jags could leave and still keep half the revenue from Lot J and Daily's Place.
Nothing, but lot J is worth way way less without an NFL team next door. Why would Khan invest in anything near the stadium if he planned on moving the team.
Is Lot J a land lease or will Khan/Iguana own the ground as well? It is an Opportunity Zone, and that is one of the driving forces behind this entire operation.
Quote from: MusicMan on February 11, 2020, 10:32:07 AM
Is Lot J a land lease or will Khan/Iguana own the ground as well? It is an Opportunity Zone, and that is one of the driving forces behind this entire operation.
City will own the land beneath the Live! entertainment complex and the public spaces.
Jags will be given ownership, at no cost, of the property beneath any residential, hotel, or office components, inclusive of adjacent property as the development expands.
Opportunity Zone program is
not being used for Lot J.
Quote from: Lostwave on February 11, 2020, 08:41:48 AM
Quote from: Kerry on February 10, 2020, 07:08:48 PM
So...what is to keep the Jags from moving after Lot J is developed anyhow? The Jags could leave and still keep half the revenue from Lot J and Daily's Place.
Nothing, but lot J is worth way way less without an NFL team next door. Why would Khan invest in anything near the stadium if he planned on moving the team.
Lot J has nothing to do with Jags home games. There are only 6 of those during the year. The whole premise of Lot J is based on non-game day revenue. The City needs to make sure full ownership reverts to the City if this thing ever actually gets built.
The Jags should have no problem agreeing to that since they say they aren't moving anyhow.
Quote from: Kerry on February 11, 2020, 12:31:15 PM
Lot J has nothing to do with Jags home games. There are only 6 of those during the year.
You're so darn silly sometimes it makes my head hurt
Quote from: Peter Griffin on February 11, 2020, 12:35:29 PM
Quote from: Kerry on February 11, 2020, 12:31:15 PM
Lot J has nothing to do with Jags home games. There are only 6 of those during the year.
You're so darn silly sometimes it makes my head hurt
Come on man - even the Jags say it isn't about home games. It is for revenue streams outside of home games.
8. With preseason. And dare I say, playoffs......
Quote from: blizz01 on February 11, 2020, 01:45:42 PM
8. With preseason. And dare I say, playoffs......
Pu-pu-pu PLAYOFFS?!?!?!?!?!
Quote from: blizz01 on February 11, 2020, 01:45:42 PM
8. With preseason. And dare I say, playoffs......
The Jags probably lose money on pre-season games so I didn't count them. If you want to count playoff games then knock yourself out. However - none of that changes the fact that according to the Jags, Lot J is for non-gameday revenue.
Quote from: Kerry on February 11, 2020, 12:31:15 PM
The City needs to make sure full ownership reverts to the City if this thing ever actually gets built.
I'm not going to get into the rest of your post as it's a bit of semantics, but this I 100% agree with.
Lot J is the Landing 2.0. When it fails, I'm sure Khan or Cordish won't want full ownership of a half empty retail center in the parking lot of the stadium along a corridor with the low AADT going through there right now.
I think Lamping said that Lot J was to be "Patriots Place on steroids". Has anyone looked at Patriot's Place? It's nothing more than than a "Town Center" type development. There is nothing "urban" about it. And yes, I'm with Lake . . . this is Landing 2.0 (and probably will be less successful at that).
Patriots Place is a strip mall but it's larger than Lot J. Lamping must be selling wolf tickets and generally describing a built out scenario of Lot J 1 and 2, plus the Shipyards/Metropolitan Park.
Quotehttps://www.jaguars.com/news/o-zone-heh-heh-heh
Tyler from Jacksonville asks:
Question: Is Lot J so much a reimagining of downtown Jacksonville, as it is an expensive replacement for The Jacksonville Landing? And how does this work, are we supposed to give a bunch of tax incentives to build essentially another mall, where we are expected to consume at a level to make as much money as New York or LA teams? What if people still prefer the Town Center to Lot J?
Answer: Lot J isn't remotely the Landing, and it's not remotely "a mall." It's a redeveloping of downtown Jacksonville on a scale that dwarfs either concept. It involves business, residences and hotel space at a level that would change how residents and visitors alike view downtown. I understand those who only know downtown Jacksonville in its current state have difficulty imagining what essentially would be a rebuilt city. Sometimes, it takes fresh eyes to imagine change on an epic scale. This is one of those times.
I don't think the person who gave that answer has been to the Town Center.
John Oesher is ultimately employed by the Jaguars organization. While he provides some legitimate criticisms to the team's play, he will probably only provide the company line in regards to Lot J.
Epic? Lol I'm not sure any of Cordish's projects are epic...and some are pretty decent....but epic? Not even close.
Quote from: JPalmer on February 11, 2020, 04:21:30 PM
John Oesher is ultimately employed by the Jaguars organization. While he provides some legitimate criticisms to the team's play, he will probably only provide the company line in regards to Lot J.
His commentary on London/Lot J has had all the nuance of a sledgehammer.
Criticism of either = the mindset of a simpleton.
It makes me wonder if the Jags actually believe their own propaganda.
"...have difficulty imagining what essentially would be a rebuilt city."
John is a great guy (and neighbor) but that's an insanely over the top response.
Related, the shows on 1010xl AM have been discussing Lot J and its potential impact on Downtown Jax pretty frequently lately. I've urged them to get someone from The Jaxson on to bring some reality to the discussion. They're drinking the Oehser koolaide.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 11, 2020, 04:41:30 PM
Epic? Lol I'm not sure any of Cordish's projects are epic...and some are pretty decent....but epic? Not even close.
By 'epic' they mean 'game changer' but that term has lost its luster in local parlance.
Quote from: Kerry on February 11, 2020, 05:19:31 PM
It makes me wonder if the Jags actually believe their own propaganda.
I think you shouldn't look to John Oesher for a true unbiased opinion on this. Oesher is actually a good football writer, as long as you remember he is not an independent writer; thus it's "State Controlled Media" so to speak. Additionally, he has a ton of experience when it comes to football, not real estate.
My belief is this: Lot J is clearly about revenue for the Jags. They haven't hid that fact. Until there is a real plan to connect the sports complex to the core of downtown, I don't believe it will help the core of downtown and make downtown vibrant.
With that said, while you don't agree I do believe that Jacksonville is better off with the Jaguars than without.
I think they need to call this what it is, and lump a "Lot J" infrastructure package, stadium renovations (the common thing that's been discussed is a partial roof, similar to Miami or what Seattle has on both sidelines), a lease extension, and ideally a cap of one London Game a year into one bill. Normally I think a monster bill would sink it. In this situation I think it could help (though I think it's unlikely the Jags agree to the London cap right now).
What I think the Jags are thinking: I genuinely believe they have no plans to permanently move.....right now. The lease is up I believe after the 2027 season. I think they want to see if the city will "partner" with them (partner being in their eyes). If the city does, then they do the larger stadium project and extend the lease.
I agree with Steve, roll everything into one package, and vote it up or down. The way it is going, we are being dealt a death by a thousand cuts. "Thanks for the deal on Lot J Stage 1, now about Lot Lot J Stage 2." Then in a couple more years, "About those stadium renovations, oh, by the way our lease is coming up for renewal. It would be a shame if something happened to that."
Even if there was one mega-deal, there is absolutley nothing to stop the death by a thousand cuts scenario. Entering a long-term agreement with Jags does nothing but tie us into more requests. If we sink this much money into the Jags we will be forced to cave to every demand for the next 30 years - lest we just throw away everything we already spent. The City should absolutely NOT put us in that position.
The Jags are a private business not a government agency like JEA or JTA. They have been given enourmous subsidies for 20+ years and are worth $2 billion. Time for them to stand on their own or move.
Quote from: Kerry on February 12, 2020, 11:28:19 AM
Even if there was one mega-deal, there is absolutley nothing to stop the death by a thousand cuts scenario. Entering a long-term agreement with Jags does nothing but tie us into more requests. If we sink this much money into the Jags we will be forced to cave to every demand for the next 30 years - lest we just throw away everything we already spent.
How would we be forced to cave? If we roll up Phase I of Lot J and stadium renovations into one package, tied to a lease extension and a guarantee to play 7 home games a season throughout the duration of the lease, the Jags lose all their leverage. Even if we have to pony up a lot of cash for Lot J and the stadium, having an ironclad lease through 2040 or 2045 would prevent us from being held up for huge subsidies on the Shipyards, a convention center, or Phase II of Lot J. What recourse would the Jags have if we declined?
We have an existing long-term iron-clad lease with the Jags. That hasn't stopped them for asking - and receiving - hundreds of millions of dollars. Hell, Lot J itself is an example of that. You think all of a sudden the Jags/NFL are going to put their hands back in their pockets and stop asking for money?
I agree we should package things up as much as possible. But I do agree with Kerry in that they'll never stop asking for money. That's an accepted part of being in the NFL game and definitely not unique to Jax. Since 1960, only Oakland and St. Louis will be the two cities to have lost teams recently without a replacement. We'll soon find out what the economic impact on both places will be.
And San Diego.
Meanwhile, cities without an NFL team, or even no pro team at all, runs circles around us.
Yes, I forgot about San Diego!
Quote from: Kerry on February 12, 2020, 12:30:07 PM
We have an existing long-term iron-clad lease with the Jags. That hasn't stopped them for asking - and receiving - hundreds of millions of dollars. Hell, Lot J itself is an example of that. You think all of a sudden the Jags/NFL are going to put their hands back in their pockets and stop asking for money?
We've only got nine years left on the lease, and if it was that iron-clad, the Jags wouldn't be able to unilaterally shift home games overseas without city approval.
Do I think the Jags are going to stop asking for money if we cave on Lot J/stadium improvements and lock in 7 games a year in Jacksonville through 2040 or 2045? Absolutely not.
But will we be in a much, much better position to make a rational, rather than fear-based, municipal decision on the ask? Absolutely.
The whole pro-jags stance is fear-based.
Quote from: Kerry on February 12, 2020, 02:04:59 PM
The whole pro-jags stance is fear-based.
WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF, KERRY?!
Quote from: thelakelander on February 12, 2020, 12:45:15 PM
I agree we should package things up as much as possible. But I do agree with Kerry in that they'll never stop asking for money. That's an accepted part of being in the NFL game and definitely not unique to Jax. Since 1960, only Oakland and St. Louis will be the two cities to have lost teams recently without a replacement. We'll soon find out what the economic impact on both places will be.
Related, here's an interesting stat expanding to the 4 major sports:
Right now, the Top 43 MSAs have at least 1 team in the 4 major sports, Except:
- #13 Riverside, CA (Which I consider part of the LA Area)
- #30 Austin, TX (Which has UT)
- #37 Virginia Beach/Norfolk, VA
- #38 Providence, RI (Which I say they have the Patriots as the stadium is closer to Providence than Boston)
Jacksonville would be the largest MSA to lose a professional sports team without one coming back. The closest thing I can come up with is Hartford, CT, which lost the Whalers in the 1990s (they are currently #48, and have lost .5% of their population over the last decade).
For a growing city, this would be unprecedented.
Maybe Jax just picked the wrong sport/league to hitch their wagon to.
Jacksonville would be the largest MSA to lose a professional sports team without one coming back. The closest thing I can come up with is
QuoteHartford, CT, which lost the Whalers in the 1990s (they are currently #48, and have lost .5% of their population over the last decade).
For a growing city, this would be unprecedented.
San Diego, St. Louis and Oakland are all bigger
Quote from: Kerry on February 12, 2020, 03:12:12 PM
Maybe Jax just picked the wrong sport/league to hitch their wagon to.
The entire city of Jacksonville does not have its wagon hitched to its football team, it's an accessory which we pay for, not an economic engine upon which our economy is built.
You don't like the Jags, you seem to take umbrage with the entire NFL's business model, you know what you can do?
DON'T SUPPORT THE TEAM!
Oh, well, funny you should mention, I can't NOT support the team because muh tax dollars subsidize...MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE.
Quote from: Steve on February 12, 2020, 03:00:42 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 12, 2020, 12:45:15 PM
I agree we should package things up as much as possible. But I do agree with Kerry in that they'll never stop asking for money. That's an accepted part of being in the NFL game and definitely not unique to Jax. Since 1960, only Oakland and St. Louis will be the two cities to have lost teams recently without a replacement. We'll soon find out what the economic impact on both places will be.
Related, here's an interesting stat expanding to the 4 major sports:
Right now, the Top 43 MSAs have at least 1 team in the 4 major sports, Except:
- #13 Riverside, CA (Which I consider part of the LA Area)
- #30 Austin, TX (Which has UT)
- #37 Virginia Beach/Norfolk, VA
- #38 Providence, RI (Which I say they have the Patriots as the stadium is closer to Providence than Boston)
Jacksonville would be the largest MSA to lose a professional sports team without one coming back. The closest thing I can come up with is Hartford, CT, which lost the Whalers in the 1990s (they are currently #48, and have lost .5% of their population over the last decade).
For a growing city, this would be unprecedented.
Quote from: vicupstate on February 12, 2020, 03:34:00 PM
Jacksonville would be the largest MSA to lose a professional sports team without one coming back. The closest thing I can come up with is QuoteHartford, CT, which lost the Whalers in the 1990s (they are currently #48, and have lost .5% of their population over the last decade).
For a growing city, this would be unprecedented.
San Diego, St. Louis and Oakland are all bigger
Since 1990, a variety of cities have lost their sports teams, and all are bigger than Jax other than Hartford and Quebec, neither of which has gotten another team.
MLB: Montreal lost the Expos in 2005
NFL: Oakland will lose the Raiders this year, San Diego lost the Chargers in 2017, and St. Louis lost the Rams in 2016.
NBA: Seattle lost the SuperSonics in 2005; Vancouver lost the Grizzlies in 2001.
NHL: Atlanta lost the Thrashers in 2011; Hartford lost the Whalers in 1997, and Quebec City lost the Nordiques in 1995.
I assume you're saying it would be unprecedented for a city of our size with only one sports team to lose it and not getting it back. That appears to be true, other than Hartford and Quebec, but it shows that teams don't actually move because they're in a "small market", aren't making enough profit, or ticket sales are suffering. They move due to stadium issues or else the owner's personal decisions.
Let's also consider that the business model of major league sports depends on holding monopolies over their games, and keeping the number of teams artificially lower than the cities that could support them. There are probably 50 cities or more that could support a sports team, and some that could (and do) support multiple. But by restricting the number of teams to 30-32, they ensure there's always another city that will build that stadium they want.
For the NFL, however, they're starting to get tapped out. Some cities have been reluctant to build those $1 billion+ stadiums to keep or attract a team. And they may well be starting to run out of cities. These are the only MSAs in the top 40 with no NFL team:
12 San Francisco - Incredibly, the San Francisco-Oakland MSA will not have a football team once the Raiders move, since the 49ers stadium in Santa Clara is officially in the San Jose MSA which is for some reason separate. But clearly the 49ers represent San Francisco and the Bay Area.
13. Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA - As Steve said above, this is effectively part of the LA metro, and they seem pretty capped on football right now.
17. San Diego - Lost the Chargers in 2017, as the voters rejected the team's demands for a new stadium. Now they play in a soccer field while waiting to become the permanent second banana. LA, like San Diego, is not paying for that new stadium. Of course they still have the Padres.
20 St. Louis - lost the Rams in 2016. Here the city was perfectly willing to renovate a stadium, but wouldn't give their ass of an owner the Cadillac stadium he wanted. So he picked up his ball and went to LA, where he's largely having to pay for the stadium himself. Still have the Cardinals and Blues, and an incoming MLS team. STL has been clear they won't be pursuing the NFL for the foreseeable future.
22 Orlando - Unlikely to get or pursue a football team with 3 in the state, and the Buccaneers less than 100 miles away. They have the Magic and Orlando City SC.
24 San Antonio - Often mentioned as a potential city for an NFL team, and perhaps the most likely to get one other than San Diego. They do have the Spurs already.
25 Portland - Like the California cities, Portland has been reluctant to fund a hugely expensive stadium project of the type needed to attract a team. They have the TrailBlazers and Timbers.
26 Sacramento - Sacramento has long been dominated by the Bay Area's sports scene. I expect they'd also show the same disinclination to building a 2 billion dollar stadium as San Francisco, Oakland, San Diego, and LA.
30 Austin - The biggest city with no major league sports, though they'll be getting an MLS team next year. They're a possible location for an NFL team.
32 Columbus - Ohio is home to 2 football teams already, and isn't exactly a high growth area (although Columbus itself is growing). They also have Ohio State as well as the Blue Jackets.
35 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara - Hilariously, this MSA actually does have a football team, the "San Francisco" 49ers.
37 Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News - They've never been in serious consideration for an NFL team. Part of the reason is there's no one central city that could lead the push.
38 Providence, RI - This is solidly Patriots territory; the Patriots' stadium is closer to Providence than it is to Boston. It's also not a growth area.
39 Milwaukee - Milwaukee will never get a team due to the Packers. They also have the Brewers and Bucks, making them by far the smallest metro with an MLB team, let alone two teams.
There are also some smaller but high growth cities that will probably be able to sustain football in the future, like Raleigh or Salt Lake City. And of course Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver would be successful football cities if the NFL ever decided to break into Canada. But otherwise that's it for North America. That's why the London experiment, and less successful experiments in Mexico City and Tokyo, is so important to them - they need other cities, or at least the threat of other cities, that'll keep giving the teams what they want.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on February 12, 2020, 03:38:15 PM
Quote from: Kerry on February 12, 2020, 03:12:12 PM
Maybe Jax just picked the wrong sport/league to hitch their wagon to.
The entire city of Jacksonville does not have its wagon hitched to its football team, it's an accessory which we pay for, not an economic engine upon which our economy is built.
So something we finally agree on. I've been saying for years the Jags have little to no economic value, and what they do have pales in comparison to the public's cost of maintaining them.
If it weren't attached to the Jags, what incentives would the City be offering for the same development by someone not-the-Jags? If the incentives are higher than we would give to Developer X, then the Lot J incentives need to be packaged with stadium upgrades (and any other Jaguar asks), and balanced with a strong lease extension. If the incentive levels are similar, treat it like any other incentive/developer deal.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 12, 2020, 04:38:19 PM
Let's also consider that the business model of major league sports depends on holding monopolies over their games, and keeping the number of teams artificially lower than the cities that could support them. There are probably 50 cities or more that could support a sports team, and some that could (and do) support multiple. But by restricting the number of teams to 30-32, they ensure there's always another city that will build that stadium they want.
For the NFL, however, they're starting to get tapped out. Some cities have been reluctant to build those $1 billion+ stadiums to keep or attract a team. And they may well be starting to run out of cities. These are the only MSAs in the top 40 with no NFL team:
12 San Francisco - Incredibly, the San Francisco-Oakland MSA will not have a football team once the Raiders move, since the 49ers stadium in Santa Clara is officially in the San Jose MSA which is for some reason separate. But clearly the 49ers represent San Francisco and the Bay Area.
13. Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA - As Steve said above, this is effectively part of the LA metro, and they seem pretty capped on football right now.
17. San Diego - Lost the Chargers in 2017, as the voters rejected the team's demands for a new stadium. Now they play in a soccer field while waiting to become the permanent second banana. LA, like San Diego, is not paying for that new stadium. Of course they still have the Padres.
20 St. Louis - lost the Rams in 2016. Here the city was perfectly willing to renovate a stadium, but wouldn't give their ass of an owner the Cadillac stadium he wanted. So he picked up his ball and went to LA, where he's largely having to pay for the stadium himself. Still have the Cardinals and Blues, and an incoming MLS team. STL has been clear they won't be pursuing the NFL for the foreseeable future.
22 Orlando - Unlikely to get or pursue a football team with 3 in the state, and the Buccaneers less than 100 miles away. They have the Magic and Orlando City SC.
24 San Antonio - Often mentioned as a potential city for an NFL team, and perhaps the most likely to get one other than San Diego. They do have the Spurs already.
25 Portland - Like the California cities, Portland has been reluctant to fund a hugely expensive stadium project of the type needed to attract a team. They have the TrailBlazers and Timbers.
26 Sacramento - Sacramento has long been dominated by the Bay Area's sports scene. I expect they'd also show the same disinclination to building a 2 billion dollar stadium as San Francisco, Oakland, San Diego, and LA.
30 Austin - The biggest city with no major league sports, though they'll be getting an MLS team next year. They're a possible location for an NFL team.
32 Columbus - Ohio is home to 2 football teams already, and isn't exactly a high growth area (although Columbus itself is growing). They also have Ohio State as well as the Blue Jackets.
35 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara - Hilariously, this MSA actually does have a football team, the "San Francisco" 49ers.
37 Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News - They've never been in serious consideration for an NFL team. Part of the reason is there's no one central city that could lead the push.
38 Providence, RI - This is solidly Patriots territory; the Patriots' stadium is closer to Providence than it is to Boston. It's also not a growth area.
39 Milwaukee - Milwaukee will never get a team due to the Packers. They also have the Brewers and Bucks, making them by far the smallest metro with an MLB team, let alone two teams.
There are also some smaller but high growth cities that will probably be able to sustain football in the future, like Raleigh or Salt Lake City. And of course Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver would be successful football cities if the NFL ever decided to break into Canada. But otherwise that's it for North America. That's why the London experiment, and less successful experiments in Mexico City and Tokyo, is so important to them - they need other cities, or at least the threat of other cities, that'll keep giving the teams what they want.
Taca, I agree that Providence isn't a high growth area (metro growing at only +1.28) but Columbus, OH is a fast growing metro (might be the fastest large metro in the Rust Belt). It's growing at +10.76. Columbus's metro will eventually pass the KC and Cincinnati's metro, and place right behind Las Vegas or Austin.
In speaking of Providence and Milwaukee, Jax any minute will pass those two metros, and place behind Virginia Beach (or maybe passing VA Beach and be right behind Nashville in around four or so years)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_statistical_areas
I don't see Columbus or Austin getting NFL teams in my lifetime, for the same reason: They're mid-sized cities that are home to two of the mega programs of college football.
^ I'm repeating myself because I know this has come up in NFL threads before, but I lived in Austin for three years, and Austin and San Antonio have long-established Cowboys loyalties (they're a Texans TV market too, but the Texans barely made a dent in the established Cowboys base from what I can discern). I think the Cowboys are too entrenched there for there to be an appetite for another NFL team.
Of course San Antonio has made a run at the NFL before, more than once, but the Alamodome is now outdated in the stadium arms race, and San Antonio probably isn't a wealthy enough market to support another pro team. It supports the Spurs extremely well, of course. Not that the 1980s are dispositive of anything now, but San Antonio showed virtually no interest in its USFL team.
The combined Austin-San Antonio market is more than wealthy enough to support the NFL, but I don't think the UT stadium is NFL-caliber (and it's too big for what most any market can support), I don't think a herd of Austin football fans would make the drive to San Antonio to support an NFL team in the Alamodome, and I don't think building a new stadium, or extensively renovating the SW Texas State stadium in San Marcos, halfway between the two is ever going to happen.
This is all in addition to what Steve rightly noted.
Quote from: I-10east on February 12, 2020, 10:52:02 PM
In speaking of Providence and Milwaukee, Jax any minute will pass those two metros, and place behind Virginia Beach (or maybe passing VA Beach and be right behind Nashville in around four or so years)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_statistical_areas
Despite continued growth, I'd imagine Jax stalls out in the upper 30s in MSA size. It will pass Providence and Milwaukee soon, and Hampton Roads eventually, and maybe some others like Cleveland and Pittsburgh long distance eventually, but Raleigh may surpass Jacksonville in the meantime. Nashville is growing at least at the same rate as Jacksonville, so I don't think we surpass Nashville.
MSAs have almost become meaningless. Jax includes Palatka nearly 50 miles away. 50 miles from downtown Milwaukee puts you in the northern suburbs of Chicago.
It is only 130 miles from Pittsburgh to Cleveland - with 3 pretty good size MSAs in between: Youngstown, Canton, and Akron. Imagine Tampa to Orlando with 2 more Lakelands thrown in.
Quote from: Kerry on February 13, 2020, 02:25:03 PM
MSAs have almost become meaningless. Jax includes Palatka nearly 50 miles away. 50 miles from downtown Milwaukee puts you in the northern suburbs of Chicago.
It is only 130 miles from Pittsburgh to Cleveland - with 3 pretty good size MSAs in between: Youngstown, Canton, and Akron. Imagine Tampa to Orlando with 2 more Lakelands thrown in.
Jacksonville MSA only includes Baker,Duval, St. Johns, Clay and Nassau....Maybe you're thinking about the CSA Combined Statistical Area, that does include Putnam County. MSA and CSA are different. IJS
Quote from: Kerry on February 13, 2020, 02:25:03 PM
It is only 130 miles from Pittsburgh to Cleveland - with 3 pretty good size MSAs in between: Youngstown, Canton, and Akron. Imagine Tampa to Orlando with 2 more Lakelands thrown in.
Let's hope not. That would be a catastrophic loss for Central Florida. Alone Tampa and Orlando MSAs have nearly 1.5 million more residents than Pittsburgh and Cleveland combined....and they're roughly 80 miles apart. You can damn near cover Central Florida coast to coast in 140 miles or so. Plus the Lakeland, Daytona, Brevard, Sarasota MSAs inbetween or next to Tampa and Orlando are significantly larger than the Youngstown, Akrons and Canton sized MSAs of Ohio now.
Well, my point really was that comparing the MSAs of relatively isolated cities like Jacksonville, OKC, Salt Lake City, Indy, etc... to cities like Tampa, Miami, San Jose, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh really isn't a good comparison. Cities in that second group are really part of megaopolis' that span hundred of miles and the size of their MSAs is limited by adjacent MSAs.
(https://www.cairco.org/sites/default/files/images/charts/us_census_population_dot_map_2012_large.gif)
The best apples to apples data to use is urban area. Unfortunately, those numbers are updated every ten years with the census.
So it has been 6 weeks since Curry and the Jags announced they have reached a deal on the now $700 million Lot J plan, and 3 weeks since the Jags announced a 2nd home game in London. Has the details (or any info) regarding Lot J been made public and I just missed it?
Quote from: Kerry on February 24, 2020, 05:14:31 PM
So it has been 6 weeks since Curry and the Jags announced they have reached a deal on the now $700 million Lot J plan, and 3 weeks since the Jags announced a 2nd home game in London. Has the details (or any info) regarding Lot J been made public and I just missed it?
Nah, you haven't missed it, it is just on Jacksonville time.
Quote from: vicupstate on February 24, 2020, 05:18:41 PM
Quote from: Kerry on February 24, 2020, 05:14:31 PM
So it has been 6 weeks since Curry and the Jags announced they have reached a deal on the now $700 million Lot J plan, and 3 weeks since the Jags announced a 2nd home game in London. Has the details (or any info) regarding Lot J been made public and I just missed it?
Nah, you haven't missed it, it is just on Jacksonville time.
Is this a Jacksonville Time clock?
(https://ctl.s6img.com/society6/img/0RZFHjt98EDqfG-9R_NkcWyEWcM/w_1500/wall-clocks/front/white-frame/black-hands/~artwork,fw_3500,fh_3500,iw_3500,ih_3500/s6-original-art-uploads/society6/uploads/misc/f7b66a4527b2476aaaa1fba01be7738a/~~/time-flies-seasons-wall-clocks.jpg)
Quote from: Kerry on February 24, 2020, 05:14:31 PM
So it has been 6 weeks since Curry and the Jags announced they have reached a deal on the now $700 million Lot J plan
We're actually coming up on 7 months.
Probably was counting on that JEA sale money. It may take a few months flipping over couch cushions to find spare change and rebuilding trust for the big ticket items.
Quote from: Kerry on February 24, 2020, 05:32:59 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on February 24, 2020, 05:18:41 PM
Quote from: Kerry on February 24, 2020, 05:14:31 PM
So it has been 6 weeks since Curry and the Jags announced they have reached a deal on the now $700 million Lot J plan, and 3 weeks since the Jags announced a 2nd home game in London. Has the details (or any info) regarding Lot J been made public and I just missed it?
Nah, you haven't missed it, it is just on Jacksonville time.
Is this a Jacksonville Time clock?
(https://ctl.s6img.com/society6/img/0RZFHjt98EDqfG-9R_NkcWyEWcM/w_1500/wall-clocks/front/white-frame/black-hands/~artwork,fw_3500,fh_3500,iw_3500,ih_3500/s6-original-art-uploads/society6/uploads/misc/f7b66a4527b2476aaaa1fba01be7738a/~~/time-flies-seasons-wall-clocks.jpg)
LOLOLOLOL....3 months means 3 years Jacksonville time. LOL
Quote from: thelakelander on February 24, 2020, 08:15:18 PM
Probably was counting on that JEA sale money. It may take a few months flipping over couch cushions to find spare change and rebuilding trust for the big ticket items.
Again, LOLOLOLOL..."flipping over couch cushions." Sometimes you just can't find that spare change that you need.
I was talking with someone from the Army Corps of Engineers and they said whenever they would do work on this project, the city would communicate with them and request communication from them via physical letters, not email. Once the city came to get plans in an unmarked van, rather than have them be emailed..... Maybe Lenny is less of a bond villain and more of a mob boss.
I gotta believe the JEA fiasco threw a monkey wrench into the plans.
...or the Jags wanted to announce two games in London before the Lot J deal closed.
For a multitude of reasons.
Quote from: Kerry on February 13, 2020, 07:02:11 PM
Well, my point really was that comparing the MSAs of relatively isolated cities like Jacksonville, OKC, Salt Lake City, Indy, etc... to cities like Tampa, Miami, San Jose, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh really isn't a good comparison. Cities in that second group are really part of megaopolis' that span hundred of miles and the size of their MSAs is limited by adjacent MSAs.
(https://www.cairco.org/sites/default/files/images/charts/us_census_population_dot_map_2012_large.gif)
Jax is really going to grow into the megalopolis of the Orlando Metro. St Johns and Flagler Counties are going to grow together sooner than later. Volusia County is going to grow wildly especially in Deland nearer Orlando. Likewise, as Clay and Baker grows, you will probably see bleeding into Lake City/Gainesville.
There is a crap load of vacant land between here and Daytona to fill in.
Much of it is wet, environmentally sensitive and will never be filled in with sprawl. Nevertheless, Jax is no where close to being as isolated as places like OKC and Salt Lake City. Florida is pretty dense for a state.
Just quickly appreciating the fact that the Gate River Run was re-routed for the first time in over 40 years because of the Hart Bridge Ramp demolition and, with three days to go, there's zero sign of any imminent work.
Welcome to Rockville 2020 would have taken place in eight weeks at the sports complex, if not for said Hart Bridge/Lot J construction that has yet to materialize.
That's a shame. Welcome to Rockville and the Hart Bridge Demolition could happen simultaneously and that would be Sold Out!
Maybe the Mayor is having a hard time coming up with the $25 million for the bridge ramps demo? Seems like kind of a waste of transportation grant money but what do I know, I'm an out of towner. Is there any talk about this in town? Most of my family doesn't know much about it, the few friends I have still in town are not fans of the idea but have kind of thrown their hands up at this point.
I do not support tearing down the Hart Bridge ramps. That aside, they should not be torn down unless Lot J is assured and that seems to be more questionable than not, especially after the Mayor's JEA fiasco and the Jags recent comments and second London game undermining public feelings toward Shad getting handouts from the taxpayers.
$233 million for Lot J plus almost $50 million for the Hart Bridge plus some $40 million or more for the Bay Street "Innovation" Corridor and autonomous vehicles to benefit the Stadium District adds up to well over $320 million that this City could desperately use in so many better places that would benefit far more than one billionaire living outside the City.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 04, 2020, 02:01:47 PM
Just quickly appreciating the fact that the Gate River Run was re-routed for the first time in over 40 years because of the Hart Bridge Ramp demolition and, with three days to go, there's zero sign of any imminent work.
Welcome to Rockville 2020 would have taken place in eight weeks at the sports complex, if not for said Hart Bridge/Lot J construction that has yet to materialize.
Well . . . I think I saw some "work" this am. Looked like three city workers and an excavator removing tree (or trees) near the Adams Street Station in what I believe is Lot E, along the Hart Ramp. If its connected to the Hart Ramp removal, then it looks like the city is trying to pinch pennies.
So maybe by 2040 this will actually get built? That's the most realistic information I've seen on this project to date...and it's highly optimistic based on the speed of things so far.
^Weird, I posted this same link this morning and it's totally vanished.
So, the office component being punted to Phase II is officially confirmed.
Phase I would now consist of the Live Arena, a hotel, and two low-rise residential buildings.
The article notes 200 units, which is strange, because I know for the fact that the Jags as recently as last week have been selling the city on 415 units.
I've got two strong opinions on this:
1) This is a much better, more market-appropriate development with the changes. There's plenty of room to expand if it's successful, and I like how they're holding off on the office component until they've locked in an end user.
2) What Cordish is now proposing breaches the existing term sheet for Lot J, and there's no way we should pony up $233 million for low-rise residential, a hotel, and Jacksonville Live.
The outlined scope has clearly changed (items 2 and 4 are gone, and item 5 will likely be scaled back as the result of the changes)
(https://snipboard.io/SgXOQZ.jpg)
And the changes proposed fall outside of the allowable project deviations:
(https://snipboard.io/9g4WBK.jpg)
Because of the way the incentives are structured, however, I worry that the hard cash will remain as is, and the REV grant would just go down a bit.
So, the city will be paying for all the infrastructure, environmental remediation, and parking ($93 million). Minus the buildings themselves, we're basically building out the surrounding environment for the Jags. That's fine, if not ideal. Additionally, the city is also paying $50 million for their half of the $100 million Jacksonville Live! Arena. If Live! costs less than that (Daily's Place cost $44.8 million total to construct, for reference), the city's money will go into other private portions of the project. Additionally, we're giving the Jags/Cordish another $66 million as a development grant to do with what they please.
(https://snipboard.io/PAGg1w.jpg)
(https://snipboard.io/B8j5sV.jpg)
Sure feels like the Jags/Cordish could conceivably build out a very large portion of the newly-proposed private residential/hotel development at the taxypayer's expense.
Surely a world-class developer like Cordish and an NFL owner/multi-billionaire should be able to jointly cover low-rise residential and a 200-room hotel - when the city is building EVERYTHING else - without needing to take $66 million more from the city coffers.
Kill the development grant, lower the REV, and I think we're in a much fairer place versus what's proposed.
Interesting that the number of residential units is 200. I've been told several times (including last week) that the absolute minimum number of multi-family units that many lenders will consider investment grade is 200.
So Phase 1 of Lot J will essentially have the bare minimum number of multi-family units to get lending from many large institutions. Not exactly going above and beyond for that huge incentive package...
Quote from: thelakelander on March 05, 2020, 09:16:12 AM
So maybe by 2040 this will actually get built? That's the most realistic information I've seen on this project to date...and it's highly optimistic based on the speed of things so far.
You'll likely still be alive, so what are you complaining about?
Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 05, 2020, 09:44:01 AM
I've got two strong opinions on this:
1) This is a much better, more market-appropriate development with the changes. There's plenty of room to expand if it's successful, and I like how they're holding off on the office component until they've locked in an end user.
There's no market demand for spec Class A office space in DT Jax. The office component was always going to have to be build to suit for a new corporate relocation, regional office, or (cough, cough) local utility HQ type user. Khan has had years to try to lure one here (in a great economy and a fantastic relocation market due to SALT limitations) and appears he has still not succeeded. I've always held the opinion that Lot J/Shipyards only works with Khan bringing in a major office user. That fact that he apparently still hasn't lined anything up is terrible news.
Please do not forget this entire location lies within the Jacksonville Opportunity Zone, which in and of itself its a potentially huge tax break for the developer.
Quote from: CityLife on March 05, 2020, 09:57:43 AM
So Phase 1 of Lot J will essentially have the bare minimum number of multi-family units to get lending from many large institutions.
Quote from: MusicMan on March 05, 2020, 11:04:55 AM
Please do not forget this entire location lies within the Jacksonville Opportunity Zone, which in and of itself its a potentially huge tax break for the developer.
The Jags and Cordish are both privately funding their portions of the project.
Opportunity Zone program/tax breaks won't be leveraged for Lot J.
Are they actually doing the development or flipping parcels off to other developers?
Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 05, 2020, 11:15:53 AM
Quote from: CityLife on March 05, 2020, 09:57:43 AM
So Phase 1 of Lot J will essentially have the bare minimum number of multi-family units to get lending from many large institutions.
Quote from: MusicMan on March 05, 2020, 11:04:55 AM
Please do not forget this entire location lies within the Jacksonville Opportunity Zone, which in and of itself its a potentially huge tax break for the developer.
The Jags and Cordish are both privately funding their portions of the project.
Opportunity Zone program/tax breaks won't be leveraged for Lot J.
Very curious that the development now has the magic 200 unit number that I've heard so many people say is the bare minimum number of units they need to make a project work....They may be self financing the infrastructure, but there is no way to know for sure or get assurances that they won't finance the hotel or apartments later or bring in hotel/apartment operators (like so many other master developers do). Either way, it's a fairly small number of units for a project getting so much public assistance and is not nearly enough residential to create any kind of vibrancy.
As for the Opportunity Zone tax breaks, I don't believe Khan needs any consent from COJ to get those through the federal government, so I doubt he wants to broadcast out to people that in addition to city and state incentives for Lot J, he's also going to be able to get all kinds of breaks on capital gains.
The daily Record has the number of residential units at 700, not 200.
Cordish reached out to Mike Mendenhall to correct the story.
(https://snipboard.io/PChlrf.jpg)
Weird that the new renders clearly show low-rise, but Cordish states 400 mid-rise units and 300 high-rise units.
This is right in line with the 415 mid-rise units that the Jags have been discussing.
Makes me wonder if the residential tower and/or garage adjacent to the Phase II office building would actually be a part of Phase I.
That's a LOT of units to move, but it's also right in line with what would be required in the existing term sheet in the absence of the office component.
Glad to hear that the 200 unit number was wrong. Would rather have an office user anchoring Phase 1, but 700 units is substantial and perhaps makes it easier to attract an office anchor for Phase 2. I'll retract any negativity from my recent posts.
Cart before the horse..... 700 units? I'll believe it when the first 200 are finished and fully occupied. Where are they gonna get groceries for God's sake!
I hate this whole concept, build a big turd in the middle of a Stadium parking lot. Who started this idea anyway?
Quote from: MusicMan on March 05, 2020, 04:41:51 PM
Cart before the horse..... 700 units? I'll believe it when the first 200 are finished and fully occupied. Where are they gonna get groceries for God's sake!
I hate this whole concept, build a big turd in the middle of a Stadium parking lot. Who started this idea anyway?
Jags claim to be in talks with a 10k-15k grocer for Lot J.
I honestly don't believe anything great is going to happen and and the worst part of it is, for me at least, that if it does - my expectations are really nothing more than a Town Center North atmosphere.
Bring on the stick-framed multi-family and big-box anchors! Yay. ::)
Quote from: MusicMan on March 05, 2020, 04:41:51 PM
I hate this whole concept, build a big turd in the middle of a Stadium parking lot
Second.
I think there's better ROI for this money if it's used for development of The Shipyards. Who wants to live next to the stadium anyways?
Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 05, 2020, 05:06:15 PM
Quote from: MusicMan on March 05, 2020, 04:41:51 PM
Cart before the horse..... 700 units? I'll believe it when the first 200 are finished and fully occupied. Where are they gonna get groceries for God's sake!
I hate this whole concept, build a big turd in the middle of a Stadium parking lot. Who started this idea anyway?
Jags claim to be in talks with a 10k-15k grocer for Lot J.
Well, these guys and the guys planning to do the old Independent Life building both apparently have a grocer on board then. Plus Spandrel wants do one at the old City Hall.
Considering this and the Harvey's on Market St, I can't wait to have 4 grocery stores downtown!
(obviously this is sarcasm...something has to give)
^Grocers on grocers on grocers ;D
Though the Independent Life guys claim to have a solid commitment from a grocer, Lamping says the Jags are in "preliminary talks" with a locally-based grocer.
Independent Life space is 22,000 square feet.
Jags noted 10,000 to 15,000 square feet - not sure what local grocer even fits that profile?
I would be surprised if even one of these grocers actually opened. The numbers aren't there, not even close.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 06, 2020, 11:17:15 AM
Jags noted 10,000 to 15,000 square feet - not sure what local grocer even fits that profile?
In terms of national chains, a Walgreens or CVS. Or a big Daily's (only half kidding)
Quote from: Bill Hoff on March 05, 2020, 10:26:02 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 05, 2020, 09:16:12 AM
So maybe by 2040 this will actually get built? That's the most realistic information I've seen on this project to date...and it's highly optimistic based on the speed of things so far.
You'll likely still be alive, so what are you complaining about?
Kahn probably won't; and I know I won't.
How are the experiments with small format stores by chains like Target going? Could that be someone looking to role the dice?
More importantly, what are the developers offering these potential grocers? It's not uncommon to give some pretty sweet deals for a few years to get the place filled up with the amenity. Then a few years later when the sweatheart deal expires, the space sits empty. The owner doesn't mind since it served it's purpose and it's purpose wasn't long term.
I seriously doubt a grocery ends up here. Two or three years ago, there was a similar article about the office component. Now they've kicked that to a phase 2 with no timeline for its completion. Yet, the subsidies requested for a smaller phase 1 with stick frame apartments (just like we said they'd be over a year ago) will likely remain the same.
The grocery will more than likely be a Daily's convenience store than a major grocery chain or Target.
Maybe Daily's could create a new concept small grocery store for this location.
It would close. Nobody lives in the sports district and it will take a lot more units than what's proposed to support a grocery at that location. Same for their convention center plan. That's a minimum of 20 years away from happening.
Perhaps a Tesco Express next to a pub so Shad will feel more at home.
I've got it:
A floating grocery barge that goes back and forth from The District to The Shipyards! Capt Peter Rummell can skipper it!
Reminiscent of the port a potty company: FLO-TEEZ: We Float 'Em, You tote 'Em
Quote from: edjax on March 07, 2020, 02:51:13 PM
Perhaps a Tesco Express next to a pub so Shad will feel more at home.
That would work for me. Haha!
This all makes it good to be old.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on March 05, 2020, 09:05:56 AM
"We could be bilking taxpayers here for 20 years." Not sure if I got that quote right....
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/cordish-executive-shares-new-details-renderings-of-lot-j-shipyards-development
I just got around to reading the article you linked to. Holy cow there was a ton of double-speak in that story, and a whole bunch of "could be" and "possible".
Also love how they say it will create 1025 permanent jobs, but include 800 of those from a company that doesn't even exist.
Classic.
Are they planning to relocate WJCT? The "Future Phases" area includes building right on top of where their current station is.
The overall plan looks lovely, but if it's basically going to require a billion dollars in public money, I'm not entirely sure what the point of a private developer is.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on March 10, 2020, 03:44:36 PM
Are they planning to relocate WJCT? The "Future Phases" area includes building right on top of where their current station is.
The overall plan looks lovely, but if it's basically going to require a billion dollars in public money, I'm not entirely sure what the point of a private developer is.
Maybe Iguana is planning on WJCT being a tenant in one of the office buildings - at premium rates.
Because private developers do it better ... with lots of public money.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 10, 2020, 03:58:26 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on March 10, 2020, 03:44:36 PM
Are they planning to relocate WJCT? The "Future Phases" area includes building right on top of where their current station is.
The overall plan looks lovely, but if it's basically going to require a billion dollars in public money, I'm not entirely sure what the point of a private developer is.
Maybe Iguana is planning on WJCT being a tenant in one of the office buildings - at premium rates.
Because private developers do it better ... with lots of public money.
So true.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on March 10, 2020, 03:44:36 PM
Are they planning to relocate WJCT? The "Future Phases" area includes building right on top of where their current station is.
The overall plan looks lovely, but if it's basically going to require a billion dollars in public money, I'm not entirely sure what the point of a private developer is.
Exactly! Why not just eliminate the "private developer" component, fund the whole thing with tax dollars, and keep all the profits for the City".
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2020, 04:36:12 PM
Exactly! Why not just eliminate the "private developer" component, fund the whole thing with tax dollars, and keep all the profits for the City".
Well, you see, that's socialism. You can't just allow the public to own a development like that, it'd turn us into Venezuela or something!
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2020, 04:36:12 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on March 10, 2020, 03:44:36 PM
Are they planning to relocate WJCT? The "Future Phases" area includes building right on top of where their current station is.
The overall plan looks lovely, but if it's basically going to require a billion dollars in public money, I'm not entirely sure what the point of a private developer is.
Exactly! Why not just eliminate the "private developer" component, fund the whole thing with tax dollars, and keep all the profits for the City".
If only there was a piece of land right on the river that the city already owned... and maybe they could build a structure on it with restaurants and shops and a performance venue... and program events with bands and... naaaaah that would never work, they'd screw it up and tear it down
Quote from: marcuscnelson on March 10, 2020, 03:44:36 PM
Are they planning to relocate WJCT? The "Future Phases" area includes building right on top of where their current station is.
Per the tax rolls, WJCT owns its 4.44 acres of property. So they would have to be compensated for the land and an approximately 65,000 square foot state-of-the-art studio, production and office building complex valued at over $5 million by the property appraiser. With moving costs added, I would think a minimum buy-out would be in the range of $10 to $15 million, very likely quite a bit more.
I posted years ago that the City should follow the model of Brooklyn Bridge Park. NYC essentially acted as master developer; funded park and infrastructure improvements up front and curated the development around the park and waterfront. They created a master plan and issued RFP's for each individual parcel and developed it incrementally over the past 10-15 years. The park is mandated to be self-sustaining from revenue produced by developments in and around the park. It's more than self-sustaining, it's printing money. Even after paying $26 million of expenses (staff, maintenance, etc), it still made a $61 million profit in 2019. The entity managing the park's total financial position is $395 million (assets minus liabilities). But perhaps most importantly, Brooklyn got a world class waterfront park.
Now I'm the first to call people out who say, "hey why don't we turn the Skyway into the High Line, or hey wouldn't it be cool if we built something like The Vessel in Jax", so I know things that happen in NY, LA, Miami, etc are not always analogous with Jax. Brooklyn Bridge Park happens to be located next to Brooklyn Heights and Cobble Hill (which are insanely expensive and desirable places to live) and also has an incredible view of Lower Manhattan, so the astounding profit they've made there would not exactly translate to Jax. That said, I still think the model of the City acting as the master developer making waterfront and infrastructure improvements, then parceling land off to developers would be more sustainable and successful than giving Khan hundreds of millions of dollars for him to develop what appears to essentially be a market rate development, where he is taking minimal risk and is basically only acting as master developer himself.
The real problem is that COJ is so horrifically run and hires virtually no talent that a concept like this is completely foreign and there would be no faith from the public that the City could pull it off...
If interested in the Brooklyn Bridge Park model, you can find quite a bit of info here
https://www.brooklynbridgepark.org/pages/project-approvals-and-presentations
I actually think of the arguments for keeping the Skyway/Hart Bridge ramps could have been our take on the High Line, and do a cool path underneath the thing. I have no desire for a high line in Jacksonville. I don't want to be any closer to the sun in the summer time than I have to be. But, a shade structure could be cool.
Regardless, we're dumping 1/2 of the Hart Bridge ramps, which could be cool but it doesn't seem like the end result will be, based on the renderings of Gator Bowl Blvd. For the money JTA is spending on the clown cars, I bet you could extend the Skyway to the stadium and do a cool walking park underneath.
But, I guess that's a separate topic.
Hart Bridge ramp removal now underway:
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2020/03/24/hart-bridge-ramp-removal-underway-working-around.html?iana=hpmvp_jac_news_headline
What is THE reason again why these ramps need to be removed? For all of Lot J or for some other reason?
"Short" term - funnel more traffic driving by whatever develops at Lot J, and have the opportunity to turn into Lot J
Long term - to remove a "barrier" between the Stadium / Lot J / Daily's Place and the future Khan development at Metro Park / Shipyards
^ also long term - since it was built 50+ years ago, the bridge structure would have needed significant rehabilitation funds
At this point, the general agreement seems to be that it's okay to lose the ramps, but the way they're redesigning the road as a result is absolutely idiotic.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 25, 2020, 09:42:44 AM
^ also long term - since it was built 50+ years ago, the bridge structure would have needed significant rehabilitation funds
Prior to the demolition project, there was no rehab project in the FDOT's 5-year work program. That means the bridge inspection reports must not have been showing any structural problems. If a bridge report shows a bridge to be structurally deficient, FDOT must schedule a rehabilitation or replacement project within 5 years (maybe shorter, I don't remember). Also, FDOT would place weight limits, if that were a problem. This does not include operationally deficient, where there are traffic capacity issues, or design standards have changed (shoulder width, for example) since the bridge was built.
To marcusnelson's point (that appeared while I typed) - I disagree, people who commute through the stadium district, either on the surface or on the ramps, likely do not want to see the ramp removed. Traffic on event evenings will be terrible.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 25, 2020, 10:14:53 AM
To marcusnelson's point (that appeared while I typed) - I disagree, people who commute through the stadium district, either on the surface or on the ramps, likely do not want to see the ramp removed. Traffic on event evenings will be terrible.
Yes, but there's a tradeoff - more traffic going through Downtown means more opportunities to spur economic development. The way it's designed may be the worst of both worlds - worse traffic without increased development on the rest of Bay Street.
^On the plus side, Bay Street's only a clown car away.
^I'll believe it when I see it! Those things will have to move alot faster to get approval to mix with expressway traffic near the stadium.