Jaguars already planning Phase II for Lot J development

thelakelander · February 11, 2020, 03:11:38 PM

Patriots Place is a strip mall but it's larger than Lot J. Lamping must be selling wolf tickets and generally describing a built out scenario of Lot J 1 and 2, plus the Shipyards/Metropolitan Park.

Ken_FSU · February 11, 2020, 03:43:28 PM

Quotehttps://www.jaguars.com/news/o-zone-heh-heh-heh

Tyler from Jacksonville asks:

Question: Is Lot J so much a reimagining of downtown Jacksonville, as it is an expensive replacement for The Jacksonville Landing? And how does this work, are we supposed to give a bunch of tax incentives to build essentially another mall, where we are expected to consume at a level to make as much money as New York or LA teams? What if people still prefer the Town Center to Lot J?

Answer: Lot J isn't remotely the Landing, and it's not remotely "a mall." It's a redeveloping of downtown Jacksonville on a scale that dwarfs either concept. It involves business, residences and hotel space at a level that would change how residents and visitors alike view downtown. I understand those who only know downtown Jacksonville in its current state have difficulty imagining what essentially would be a rebuilt city. Sometimes, it takes fresh eyes to imagine change on an epic scale. This is one of those times.

Kerry · February 11, 2020, 03:49:26 PM

I don't think the person who gave that answer has been to the Town Center.

JPalmer · February 11, 2020, 04:21:30 PM

John Oesher is ultimately employed by the Jaguars organization. While he provides some legitimate criticisms to the team's play, he will probably only provide the company line in regards to Lot J.

thelakelander · February 11, 2020, 04:41:30 PM

Epic? Lol I'm not sure any of Cordish's projects are epic...and some are pretty decent....but epic? Not even close.

Ken_FSU · February 11, 2020, 04:58:41 PM

Quote from: JPalmer on February 11, 2020, 04:21:30 PM
John Oesher is ultimately employed by the Jaguars organization. While he provides some legitimate criticisms to the team's play, he will probably only provide the company line in regards to Lot J.

His commentary on London/Lot J has had all the nuance of a sledgehammer.

Criticism of either = the mindset of a simpleton.

Kerry · February 11, 2020, 05:19:31 PM

It makes me wonder if the Jags actually believe their own propaganda.

Bill Hoff · February 11, 2020, 08:05:30 PM

"...have difficulty imagining what essentially would be a rebuilt city."

John is a great guy (and neighbor) but that's an insanely over the top response.

Related, the shows on 1010xl AM have been discussing Lot J and its potential impact on Downtown Jax pretty frequently lately. I've urged them to get someone from The Jaxson on to bring some reality to the discussion. They're drinking the Oehser koolaide.

vicupstate · February 12, 2020, 09:29:18 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 11, 2020, 04:41:30 PM
Epic? Lol I'm not sure any of Cordish's projects are epic...and some are pretty decent....but epic? Not even close.

By 'epic' they mean 'game changer' but that term has lost its luster in local parlance.

Steve · February 12, 2020, 09:57:47 AM

Quote from: Kerry on February 11, 2020, 05:19:31 PM
It makes me wonder if the Jags actually believe their own propaganda.

I think you shouldn't look to John Oesher for a true unbiased opinion on this. Oesher is actually a good football writer, as long as you remember he is not an independent writer; thus it's "State Controlled Media" so to speak. Additionally, he has a ton of experience when it comes to football, not real estate.

My belief is this: Lot J is clearly about revenue for the Jags. They haven't hid that fact. Until there is a real plan to connect the sports complex to the core of downtown, I don't believe it will help the core of downtown and make downtown vibrant.

With that said, while you don't agree I do believe that Jacksonville is better off with the Jaguars than without.

I think they need to call this what it is, and lump a "Lot J" infrastructure package, stadium renovations (the common thing that's been discussed is a partial roof, similar to Miami or what Seattle has on both sidelines), a lease extension, and ideally a cap of one London Game a year into one bill. Normally I think a monster bill would sink it. In this situation I think it could help (though I think it's unlikely the Jags agree to the London cap right now).

What I think the Jags are thinking: I genuinely believe they have no plans to permanently move.....right now. The lease is up I believe after the 2027 season. I think they want to see if the city will "partner" with them (partner being in their eyes). If the city does, then they do the larger stadium project and extend the lease.

Charles Hunter · February 12, 2020, 10:25:23 AM

I agree with Steve, roll everything into one package, and vote it up or down. The way it is going, we are being dealt a death by a thousand cuts. "Thanks for the deal on Lot J Stage 1, now about Lot Lot J Stage 2." Then in a couple more years, "About those stadium renovations, oh, by the way our lease is coming up for renewal. It would be a shame if something happened to that."

Kerry · February 12, 2020, 11:28:19 AM

Even if there was one mega-deal, there is absolutley nothing to stop the death by a thousand cuts scenario. Entering a long-term agreement with Jags does nothing but tie us into more requests. If we sink this much money into the Jags we will be forced to cave to every demand for the next 30 years - lest we just throw away everything we already spent. The City should absolutely NOT put us in that position.

The Jags are a private business not a government agency like JEA or JTA. They have been given enourmous subsidies for 20+ years and are worth $2 billion. Time for them to stand on their own or move.

Ken_FSU · February 12, 2020, 11:56:33 AM

Quote from: Kerry on February 12, 2020, 11:28:19 AM
Even if there was one mega-deal, there is absolutley nothing to stop the death by a thousand cuts scenario. Entering a long-term agreement with Jags does nothing but tie us into more requests. If we sink this much money into the Jags we will be forced to cave to every demand for the next 30 years - lest we just throw away everything we already spent.

How would we be forced to cave? If we roll up Phase I of Lot J and stadium renovations into one package, tied to a lease extension and a guarantee to play 7 home games a season throughout the duration of the lease, the Jags lose all their leverage. Even if we have to pony up a lot of cash for Lot J and the stadium, having an ironclad lease through 2040 or 2045 would prevent us from being held up for huge subsidies on the Shipyards, a convention center, or Phase II of Lot J. What recourse would the Jags have if we declined?

Kerry · February 12, 2020, 12:30:07 PM

We have an existing long-term iron-clad lease with the Jags. That hasn't stopped them for asking - and receiving - hundreds of millions of dollars. Hell, Lot J itself is an example of that. You think all of a sudden the Jags/NFL are going to put their hands back in their pockets and stop asking for money?

thelakelander · February 12, 2020, 12:45:15 PM

I agree we should package things up as much as possible. But I do agree with Kerry in that they'll never stop asking for money. That's an accepted part of being in the NFL game and definitely not unique to Jax. Since 1960, only Oakland and St. Louis will be the two cities to have lost teams recently without a replacement. We'll soon find out what the economic impact on both places will be.