Jaguars already planning Phase II for Lot J development

[thelakelander]

Negotiators for Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan and the city have not drafted a final deal for his $450 million to $500 million Lot J development, but team leadership already is looking ahead to a possible Phase II.

Jaguars President Mark Lamping outlined the Phase II concept during an interview Jan. 21 to include two high-rise towers and a connecting parking garage that he said could be nearly $200 million on top of the investment in the first phase.

Lamping said Phase II and its additional capital investment in the Sports Complex would likely bring a second round of talks with the city for incentives separate from the Lot J proposal that is being negotiated.

Full Article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jaguars-already-planning-phase-ii-for-lot-j-development

[Peter Griffin]

Once Phase I is built I can climb the skyscraper to eat all the pie they're putting in the sky

[thelakelander]

Phase II sounds like everything that was supposed to be a part of Phase I, except for the Live Area! (Landing Replacement). However, the incentives ask didn't change for Phase I.

[marcuscnelson]

"Our hope was that Lot J would be a catalyst for other development. In fact, we're already talking about the next phase of Lot J which would bring the total to around $700 million," Lamping said.

Is it really a catalyst for development if the city still has to pay for that development?

[vicupstate]

Lamping said city and Jaguars negotiators are "closer than they've been" on reaching a deal for city financing.

I'm glad they are closer than they had been, considering construction was suppose to be underway right now.

[Chuckabear]

Can someone provide insight to a novice? I know we don't have the final details but is COJ going to maintain ownership of the land (meaning no property tax collection)? Where is the revenue going to come from to repay the bonds for whatever the tax payer contribution is going to be?

What is the hook to travel all the way to an isolated site and spend my money?

[avonjax]

Phase II sounds like everything that was supposed to be a part of Phase I, except for the Live Area! (Landing Replacement). However, the incentives ask didn't change for Phase I.

I have believed from the moment that Curry was re-elected that his plan to demolish the Landing was to push the hub of entertainment to Lot J. My fear was always that Lot J might never happen. I've told all my friends that if we don't see the beginning of construction in early 2020 we may never see this come to fruition. I'm still not sure. I truely believe that if Lot J dies Curry will go down in history as the WORST mayor of Jacksonville at least in my lifetime. And the scariest thing is I believe we will see more demolition in the next 3 years of his demolition derby. This only makes it even sadder that one of the great cheerleaders of Jacksonville has died. I wish we had another Jake.

[Ken_FSU]

Phase II sounds like everything that was supposed to be a part of Phase I, except for the Live Area! (Landing Replacement). However, the incentives ask didn't change for Phase I.

Hopefully this isn't the case and residential and office components mentioned for Phase II would be in addition to, rather than replacing, the residential and office components in Phase I. Lamping's stated a few times here in the last week, as has Curry, that the original term sheet remains the overall framework for the deal they're working towards. Not sure the Jags could just remove those elements all together without starting back from zero on the economic development agreement.

What the current terms do allow, however, is for the the office component in Phase I to be replaced by mid-rise residential.

I could see the Jags shifting the office component from Phase I to Phase II (surely there's not a market for two office components right now) and shifting the mid-rise residential that was originally part of their Phase II plans into the first phase. 600 total luxury residential units, which they'd be bound to by the current framework in this scenario, feels very aggressive for the area, but so does an office tower in the stadium parking lot 



Per the term sheet, if the Jags were to make an office/mid-rise residential swap for Phase I, development rights of the surface parking lot over the retention pond would be transferred to the team for additional development, as alluded to here by Lamping.

For Phase II, based on past precedent with similar Cordish developments, you've got to think that, at the least, the Jags would ask the city to pay for the 1,000+ spot connecting garage necessary to replace the surface lot and provide parking for the residential and office components noted by Lamping.

I'll believe any of it when I see it.

We've been "very close" on a deal for over a year now.

Can someone provide insight to a novice? I know we don't have the final details but is COJ going to maintain ownership of the land (meaning no property tax collection)? Where is the revenue going to come from to repay the bonds for whatever the tax payer contribution is going to be?

What is the hook to travel all the way to an isolated site and spend my money?

The city will own the Live! Entertainment complex, the surface parking lot (unless the Jags develop it, in which case we'd transfer ownership and provide a REV grant up to $20 million), and all the public spaces/roadways/sidewalks. Land for any hotel, residential, or office development will be given to the Jags by the city at no cost. We've discussed using a part of the bed tax to finance the project, and I'm sure some wacky projections are being made somewhere about how incremental revenue from all the net new business at Lot J, along with the windfall from hosting the NFL draft every year going forward, will allow us to service the debt with money leftover to relocate the jail.

The hook is less about traveling to an isolated site to spend your money, and more about capturing revenue from the ~1 million people already attending the 300+ events each year in the sports complex. To that end, I like the Live! aspect of the development, and hope that its gets a slightly larger footprint than the tiny venue currently proposed. Even the hotel I like, as having the Live! complex and a hotel in the sports complex genuinely does make the area more attractive for major sporting events and festivals.

The office, residential, and hotel is intended to create a "new urban neighborhood" to feed into the restaurant and retail components during non-event times.

Meanwhile, in the most prolonged period of economic prosperity and urban revitalization in United States history, you still can't find a cup of coffee after 6 PM in Jacksonville's existing central business district.

[thelakelander]

What's the break down on the $233 million in subsidies previously requested? Seems excessive for pad sites that may or not may be residential/office/hotel, a surface parking lot and an expensive strip mall.

[Ken_FSU]

What's the break down on the $233 million in subsidies previously requested? Seems excessive for pad sites that may or not may be residential/office/hotel, a surface parking lot and an expensive strip mall.

Tax rebate:
- $25 million REV grant (75% over 20 years) for the overall project, based on estimated costs of $67 million for the office building, $77 million for the hotel, and $128 million for the residential tower.

Cash:
- $50 million cash for the city's half of Jacksonville Live!
- $93 million cash for infrastructure ($33 million for general site improvements, $6 million for remediation, $45 million for the built-in parking garages, $8 million for the surface lot)
- $66 million in extra cash in the form of a grant to the Jags/Cordish for agreeing to take on the project

If Jacksonville Live! comes in at less than $100 million, or if infrastructure improvements come in at less than $93 million, the Jags are free to reallocate the remaining publicly subsidized balance into the other private components of the project.

The vague $66 million bonus grant is what feels particularly greedy to me.

As the current deal is structured, the city is footing 50% the bill, and the Jags and Cordish are each footing 25%.

Kill the development grant turning it into a true 33%/33%/33% split, and I think it's a much fairer deal for the city.

[Bativac]

Phase II sounds like everything that was supposed to be a part of Phase I, except for the Live Area! (Landing Replacement). However, the incentives ask didn't change for Phase I.

I have believed from the moment that Curry was re-elected that his plan to demolish the Landing was to push the hub of entertainment to Lot J. My fear was always that Lot J might never happen. I've told all my friends that if we don't see the beginning of construction in early 2020 we may never see this come to fruition. I'm still not sure. I truely believe that if Lot J dies Curry will go down in history as the WORST mayor of Jacksonville at least in my lifetime. And the scariest thing is I believe we will see more demolition in the next 3 years of his demolition derby. This only makes it even sadder that one of the great cheerleaders of Jacksonville has died. I wish we had another Jake.

Yeah - it's absolutely crystal clear that's why there was such a big rush to tear down the Landing, especially after what Curry pulled with the JEA. I'm glad they were able to put a stop to that but it's a shame the Landing ended up coming down anyway. I absolutely do not think Lot J will ever happen, and if it does it will be a pale sickly shadow of their elaborate plans.

[JBTripper]

Lamping said city and Jaguars negotiators are "closer than they've been" on reaching a deal for city financing.

I'm glad they are closer than they had been, considering construction was suppose to be underway right now.

Well construction was set to begin the Monday after the AFC Championship Game, the implication being that it couldn't start before then because the Jaguars would be hosting that event. My guess is they meant construction will begin the Monday after the next AFC Championship Game hosted by the Jaguars. In other words, never.

[Doctor_K]

I mean, if the plan also included streetcar/tram running the entire length of Bay Street (abutting the clearly over-used Shipyards parcel(s)) from the JTA Hub, that'd reduce the isolation of Lot J from the rest of the Core, yes?

Y'know - *that* old rag...

I guy can dream, can't he?

[thelakelander]

What's the break down on the $233 million in subsidies previously requested? Seems excessive for pad sites that may or not may be residential/office/hotel, a surface parking lot and an expensive strip mall.

Tax rebate:
- $25 million REV grant (75% over 20 years) for the overall project, based on estimated costs of $67 million for the office building, $77 million for the hotel, and $128 million for the residential tower.

Let's assume the office building and residential tower in phase I are replaced with a mid-rise stick frame apartment building. I'd assume the REV grant rebate would be lower? For references, SoBa on the Southbank is a 4-story, stick frame apartment project with 147 units and structured parking. That project cost $15 million. Monthly rental rates were said to start from about $1,300 for one-bedroom units and $1,600 for two-bedroom units. Is that considered "luxury"?

Cash:
- $50 million cash for the city's half of Jacksonville Live!

Xfinity Live! cost around $50 million when it was built in 2012. Our estimate is $100 million?! Is it safe to assume that this Live! be significantly larger?

- $93 million cash for infrastructure ($33 million for general site improvements, $6 million for remediation, $45 million for the built-in parking garages, $8 million for the surface lot)

I find this number to be quite ambiguous. Why give $45 million up-front for built-in parking garages for building products that could change to something that may not include built-in parking garages? COJ would probably save money, cleaning the site and putting in a road grid independently. Also, if there's a phase 2 proposed for the surface parking lot, don't waste $8 million making it.

- $66 million in extra cash in the form of a grant to the Jags/Cordish for agreeing to take on the project

This part is outright ridiculous and reeks of desperation. If we were handing out these types of incentives for various downtown projects in the past, the place would be redeveloped already. You start adding these numbers up and it seems like taxpayers could be paying 100% for whatever goes there and that would be a best case scenario. The worst case scenario (and more likely one) would be a half empty Live! (Landing 2.0) that taxpayers would own, in the middle of surface parking and pad sites, with all that extra up-front cash gone.

If Jacksonville Live! comes in at less than $100 million, or if infrastructure improvements come in at less than $93 million, the Jags are free to reallocate the remaining publicly subsidized balance into the other private components of the project.

Really makes you question the experience and credibility of the individuals in the negotiation room representing the tax payers.

[Ken_FSU]

Xfinity Live! cost around $50 million when it was built in 2012. Our estimate is $100 million?! Is it safe to assume that this Live! be significantly larger?

If by "significantly larger," you mean "appears to be less than half the size of the smallest existing Cordish Live! complex," then yes, significantly larger 

The project is being sold in term sheet as similiar to Ballpark Village/KC Live!, and has also been compared to Cordish's Texas Live! and Xfinity Live! in Philadelphia.

But check out the property sizes.

Phase 1 of Ballpark Village (the entertainment district) is 2.13 acres.


KC Live! (the Cordish entertainment complex) is 3.11 acres.


Xfinity Live! in Philiadelphia is 2.34 acres.


Texas Live! is 3.66 acres.


Powerplant Live in Baltimore is 3.54 acres.


So, take a look at the site plan that the Jags and Cordish have released:


And look at how much space is dedicated to the Cordish Live! complex that the city is ponying up $50 million for to be our new comparable "entertainment district."



An acre is generous, considering the shape of the complex.

This is legimately 45% the size of the SMALLEST Live! development that Cordish has developed.

Unless the rest of the development is loaded with ground level entertainment uses (the JEA proposal had zero), or it's obscenely vertical compared to other Cordish developments, I'm not entirely sure how our "entertainment district" consists of much more than maybe two small restaurants and one or two bars.