Metro Jacksonville

Wow!

QuoteJacksonville Mayor Alvin Brown said Friday afternoon he opposes plans to turn the First Coast Outer Beltway from Interstate 10 to Blanding Boulevard into a toll road.

Brown said it was a mistake to pursue a toll road when the economy is in bad shape. He also disagrees with the state's plan to build and maintain the road itself.

"Private industry wasn't interested in doing this because they didn't think it would make money," Brown said. "And the state shouldn't be doing this on its own."

Brown has no ability to stop the project because the Outer Beltway, also called Florida 23, is a state road. But the mayor said he plans to talk to Gov. Rick Scott about the project and let him know that Jacksonville doesn't want any more toll roads.

Former Mayor Tommy Hazouri also said the decision is a slap in the face to taxpayers who approved a half-cent sales tax in the 1980s to get rid of previous tolls.

Hazouri was mayor when the previous toll system was abandoned.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-08-19/jacksonville-mayor-comes-out-against-new-toll-road?cid=hp-lede

very impressive!

guess we now know why he didn't go to the event the other day

BRAVO, Mayor Brown! 

Lets think RAIL not ROADS.

OCKLAWAHA

I will be waiting for the kudos from the local Tea Party.

There won't be any waiting to hear it from me. Kudos Mayor Brown.

Very well done Mayor Brown. 

I want to take some of my kudos away....

I think my main concern is that the Mayor focused on the fact that it is a toll road and that we don't want those in Duval...and that is why he is opposed to it.

Fact is we raised the local sales tax 20+ years ago so we could take away tolls on existing roads and bridges that were built and/or maintained by the old expressway authority (now JTA).

That has nothing to do with having tolls on new roads....or even additional lanes on existig roads (like future special use lanes on interstates)....assuming they are funded by state/federal gas tax revenues.

Now, don't get me wrong....I'd rather we stop building new expressways and minimize the widening of existing ones....but if we're gonna do it, tolls are the way to go.

If a significant stretch of the Duval portion was funded by BJP, shouldn't FDOT return that money back to Duval County residents, if they plan to now toll it and keep all the revenue?  If not, that stretch (which has a higher traffic count) is being used to subsidize the expansion of the Clay County side at the expense of Duval taxpayers.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 19, 2011, 05:01:51 PM
Wow!

Quotevery impressive!

The why of this - the toll issue - hardly matters at all.  What matters is that the Mayor of Jacksonville has taken a position against the lieutenant governor, FDOT, most of the elected leaders from outside of Jacksonville, and most of the self-appointed "leaders" from across the entire region.

The battleship SS Sprawl has just taken a big hit below the water line.  It's time for the rats to abandon ship.

Vacant lots in Springfield should be worth much more on Monday than what they were worth yesterday.

^Interesting outlook there.  Not that it matters but I would like to hear what the local media thinks about this position.  Especially, this quote:

Quote"Private industry wasn't interested in doing this because they didn't think it would make money," Brown said. "And the state shouldn't be doing this on its own."

This is not the beginning of the end - this is much closer to the end itself.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 20, 2011, 07:51:29 AM
... I would like to hear what the local media thinks about this position. 

Or what does Mica think? 

Given the timing in relation to the transportation re authorization bill, this could turn out to be an enormous story!

Thankfully, the opposition to this project locally seems to be universal - although most just oppose to the tolls.  It only really benefits the developers along the corridor and those in the road construction industry.  Could this be the boondoggle that finally raises awareness to the problem?

Quote
Former Mayor Tommy Hazouri also said the decision is a slap in the face to taxpayers who approved a half-cent sales tax in the 1980s to get rid of previous tolls.

Hazouri was mayor when the previous toll system was abandoned.

I am familiar with the old toll system, and I know that the yield from those tolls was sufficient to back the bonds for building the Dame Point Bridge (i.e. well over $100M).

So why is it that the proceeds from the half-cent sales tax are not high enough to pay for any new roads?  Where is that money going?

Quote from: dougskiles on August 20, 2011, 09:59:42 AM
Thankfully, the opposition to this project locally seems to be universal

hard;ly....I virtually guarantee this road gets built

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 20, 2011, 11:26:46 AM
So why is it that the proceeds from the half-cent sales tax are not high enough to pay for any new roads?  Where is that money going?

I would assume maintenance...remember, as a road gets older, more $ needs to spent keeping it up.

Heck, they're about to spend $20+ million repainting the Mathews Bridge.

Plus, the tax is only local....so it shouldn't go to building state roads

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 20, 2011, 11:41:55 AM

Quote from: dougskiles on August 20, 2011, 09:59:42 AM
Thankfully, the opposition to this project locally seems to be universal

hard;ly....I virtually guarantee this road gets built

This road was nearly dead before this happened, now it's dead for sure.

I don't think FDOT really cares to much about Brown's opinion on this project or if it will pay for itself. Their entire operation wouldn't be feasible without tax dollars, so why worry about it now (from their perspective)?

Quote from: thelakelander on August 20, 2011, 12:31:34 PM
I don't think FDOT really cares to much about Brown's opinion on this project or if it will pay for itself. Their entire operation wouldn't be feasible without tax dollars, so why worry about it now (from their perspective)?

An original purpose of metropolitan planning organizations was to protect cities from state highway departments.

^Our TPO wants the Outer Beltway.  Its been on their LRTP for years.

Personally, I think that the mayor is hitting a single with this one, and moving a runner into scoring position. 

He said that he's against the tolls - this will give him some credibility witht the teapartiers and repubs that are against the tolls per the tax raise a decade ago.

He qualified by saying that he's also against the road in general - this will give him some credibility with the left and the centrists that are already against sprawl.

Whether or not Tallahassee will agree with his position and kill it or goes ahead with the project anyway is out of his hands, but he made his stand and I am fully on board with him.  If the project tanks and he can take some responsibility for it, even better.

I totally agree.  I feel that the TU did not elaborate on his thoughts, but maybe gave their narrow opinion.  I am sure he is against the road for more reasons than tolls, but he took a good stance and I commend him for doing this.  Nothing about this project makes any sense and the mayor agrees. 

Quote from: thelakelander on August 20, 2011, 03:35:31 PM
^Our TPO wants the Outer Beltway.  Its been on their LRTP for years.

I'm very aware of the TPO position.  It is what it is. 

But given the new mayor's new position on this project, I believe that the TPO position is no longer tenable.

Even before this new development, there had been a lot of wishful thinking by the TPO about this project.

Given US DOT transportation planning requirements, I simply cannot see how FDOT or Clay County will be able to shove this project down the throat of the Mayor of Jacksonville.  The numbers don't work.

All I'll say is I hope you're right and that Brown has the ability to kill this project the same way Scott took out HSR.

I've been present at the funeral for at least one highway project that was bigger than this one.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 20, 2011, 03:35:31 PM
^Our TPO wants the Outer Beltway.  Its been on their LRTP for years.

plus its a top TPO priority project,,,and I highly doubt that's gonna change...remember, the majority of the road is in Clay County...and they want it....plus there are plenty of folks in Duval that also want it.

fact is the 15-mile Branan Field-Chafee Expressway (precursor to the full 45 mile outer beltway) has been on maps since the late 1970s.

and during the Reality Check exercise, all 30 tables drew it in....almost as if it was a given.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 20, 2011, 07:12:29 PM
and during the Reality Check exercise, all 30 tables drew it in....almost as if it was a given.

That says more about Reality Check than about the project. 

If the numbers had ever worked it would have been built by now.

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 20, 2011, 07:37:10 PM
If the numbers had ever worked it would have been built by now.

I think the numbers can work for the 15-mile segment....from what I figure, the capital costs can be recouped after about 12 years.

and don't forget, the Turnpike Enterprise makes $ on the Turnpike mainline itself (especially in So Fla) that allows them to subsidize other roads for many years....examples include the Polk Parkway and the Suncoast Parkway

Quote from: stephendare on August 20, 2011, 11:44:15 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 20, 2011, 11:41:55 AM

Quote from: dougskiles on August 20, 2011, 09:59:42 AM
Thankfully, the opposition to this project locally seems to be universal

hard;ly....I virtually guarantee this road gets built

quoted for posterity

is there something you are trying to say?

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 20, 2011, 06:20:49 PM
Given US DOT transportation planning requirements, I simply cannot see how FDOT or Clay County will be able to shove this project down the throat of the Mayor of Jacksonville.  The numbers don't work.

you know as well as I do that USDOT requirements are based on what a given MPO has adopted...and there you have it.

I'm thrilled that the mayor has stood up to the TPO and Highway lobby on this project, win, lose, or draw, he has done the right thing.

From a pure transportation guy standpoint there are but two possible major new roads in the west Jax area that make any sense to me.

1. Four lane Lenox Avenue to Old Middleburg to a point north of Argyle, and hence a limited access highway (complete with limited interchanges) between Old Middleburg and 301 near Starke.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 20, 2011, 08:11:58 PM

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 20, 2011, 06:20:49 PM
Given US DOT transportation planning requirements, I simply cannot see how FDOT or Clay County will be able to shove this project down the throat of the Mayor of Jacksonville.  The numbers don't work.

you know as well as I do that USDOT requirements are based on what a given MPO has adopted...and there you have it.

By what stretch of the imagination is this a cost feasible project?

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 20, 2011, 07:12:29 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 20, 2011, 03:35:31 PM
^Our TPO wants the Outer Beltway.  Its been on their LRTP for years.

plus its a top TPO priority project,,,

fact is the 15-mile Branan Field-Chafee Expressway (precursor to the full 45 mile outer beltway) has been on maps since the late 1970s.

Fact is Clay County BC Sector plan proceedings dwindled to a handful of vested ( or soon to be vested!) interests.One in the room had the same last name as one who would become FDOT Director years later.A Clay native.
Fascinating how such insights,"news" isn't........

TPO,MPO joined at the hip with development boosters,related key landowner drivers.Lake Asbury Sector Plan (ROUND ONE) a classic example of the Beltway Boosters facing Clay Citizen opposition.

Trivia question......when did the window for legally binding "NO BUILD" come.....and go.

beltway has been on Clay maps in fact since at least early 70's/Local Government Planning Act.Reinhold a key driver.I recall too gadflys such as Bettyjane Tripplett.
current roadway alignment greatly gerrymandered from the original gracefull arc depicted on the 70's map and even fairly recent placed before DCA.Each twist and turn of the gerrymandered alignment is telling.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 19, 2011, 10:56:14 PM


Now, don't get me wrong....I'd rather we stop building new expressways and minimize the widening of existing ones....but if we're gonna do it, tolls are the way to go.

Tufsu   are you involved in BC corridor east-west roadway/wetland belt ?

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 20, 2011, 08:42:59 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 20, 2011, 08:11:58 PM

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 20, 2011, 06:20:49 PM
Given US DOT transportation planning requirements, I simply cannot see how FDOT or Clay County will be able to shove this project down the throat of the Mayor of Jacksonville.  The numbers don't work.

you know as well as I do that USDOT requirements are based on what a given MPO has adopted...and there you have it.

By what stretch of the imagination is this a cost feasible project?

if it is funded by tolls, you don't have to use existing federal/state/local revenue sources.

fact, the whole Outer Beltway is included in FDOT's Strategic Intermodal System Cost Feasible Plan....and the MPOs in the state have stayed consitent with that when developing their LRTPs

Quote from: stephendare on August 20, 2011, 11:44:15 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 20, 2011, 11:41:55 AM

Quote from: dougskiles on August 20, 2011, 09:59:42 AM
Thankfully, the opposition to this project locally seems to be universal

hard;ly....I virtually guarantee this road gets built

quoted for posterity

It will.
-N.Miami

Quote from: JeffreyS on August 19, 2011, 06:01:13 PM
I will be waiting for the kudos from the local Tea Party.

There won't be any waiting to hear it from me. Kudos Mayor Brown.

On behalf of the Tea Party (not that I'm a member) I'd like to thank Mayor Brown for standing up to the powers that be (road building magnates).

I wonder if Hogan would have done the same...

No. Hogan would have been there with the Lt. Gov and gave quotes for the paper about this stimulating jobs and economic development for a 21st century Jax.

Quote from: tufsu1 link=topic=12971.msg240417#msg24041
/quote]
fact, the whole Outer Beltway is included in FDOT's Strategic Intermodal System Cost Feasible Plan....and the MPOs in the state have stayed consitent with that when developing their LRTPs

Even if everybody agrees that pigs can fly, that doesn't mean that pigs can fly. 

This project is dead.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 20, 2011, 09:15:32 PM

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 20, 2011, 08:42:59 PM

By what stretch of the imagination is this a cost feasible project?

if it is funded by tolls, you don't have to use existing federal/state/local revenue sources.

What you're saying here is that this particular stretch of the imagination is an incredibly long stretch.

Quote from: stephendare on August 20, 2011, 11:44:15 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 20, 2011, 11:41:55 AM

Quote from: dougskiles on August 20, 2011, 09:59:42 AM
Thankfully, the opposition to this project locally seems to be universal

hard;ly....I virtually guarantee this road gets built

quoted for posterity

Already Done as far as the current subject matter;key I-10/Blanding link.
Gone is era when Clay County Planner Dick Post defended the vast wetlasnd belt complex west of Orange as the major regional sensitive water recharge region that it is.
Gone is the dirt road depicted in a Florida Times Union photo;defiant North Miami leaning against a Brannon Chaffee/Blanding Blvd sign.Gone is the Pacjic era Duval Delegation that Did not embrace funding,even in the face of lavish Lobster dinner lobby efforts by the Clay Chamber.Gone is the 1900 acre Trust for Public Lands option.Gone is the Brannon Chaffee Sector Plan,Lake Asbury Sector Plan (Two of them!).Gone is the FDOT legally binding NO BUILD option.Gone is the FDOT Brannon Chaffee I-10/Blanding permit application placed before COE and Water Management District,under the known erroneous premise that the I-10/Blanding section permit was for,in the words of FDOT a "stand alone project"......"with no current plans for extension".
The strong letter of support from Mayor Delaney that helped sway COE better not be gone from the public record.
Soon gone would COE Joe Miller, who would call me on his cell phone at Brannon Chaffee ground breaking.....to apologize and then soon end up,for a very short period,as Delaney Administration Green Public Works director.

how's that for Posterity??

North Miami, are you saying it will or will not get built?

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 20, 2011, 10:54:54 PM
Even if everybody agrees that pigs can fly, that doesn't mean that pigs can fly. 

This project is dead.

wow...while I'd like to think you're right....I know better!

I mean, did you notice that the Mayor has basically admitted he can't do anything about this road....and will instead talk to the Governor about Jax. not wanting any other toll roads.

This project is Humpty Dumpty and you're talking about all the kings horses and all the kings men.

Am I the only one that thinks people are solely against this road b/c of tolls?  I really don't think many in Duval County would object to building the road(case in point, something like 5 people showed up to the public meeting about the Pecan Park extension and no one opposed it)... they just don't want tolls.  This city has a thing against tolls.  I vividly remember watching Tommy Hazzouri blow up a toll when I was a child.

As a side-note, I think it's extremely humerous to tout this as a public-private partnership when the 'company' building the road is owned by FDOT.  So the state creating a seperate company in order to take on debt to build the road is somehow considered a private-sector venture?

Probably so.

QuoteAs a side-note, I think it's extremely humerous to tout this as a public-private partnership when the 'company' building the road is owned by FDOT.  So the state creating a seperate company in order to take on debt to build the road is somehow considered a private-sector venture?

Yes, this piece of the deal is very hilarious.

Quote from: dougskiles on August 21, 2011, 07:30:34 AM
North Miami, are you saying it will or will not get built?

I note that this corridor proposal which truly sputtered for decades has in fact decidedly gone forward within the the Blanding/10 section during the past decade. That was what the COE presence at the ground breaking ceremony was about.
I say this existing recently upgraded roadway will expand and indeed,the balance of the Beltway will be built.Yes.

Tolls are a ruse. The loftier elements are over our collective heads or at least rendered sidelined, and in classic fashion,alarm and scrutiny come just a wee bit too late.

Discerning citizens have either remain stunned and transfixed,resigned to an impending change billed as not all that much to worry about,since after all it would be years before "it" happened,or moved out or refrained from moving in.

Look over the Branan Chaffee Sector Plan and the Lake Asbury Sector Plan and related St Johns County proceedings.

I was treated as a heretic among the conservation/growth management public interest community during the era of my early warnings.Eventually,as events emerged,I was granted the coveted City of Jacksonville Mayors Environmental Luncheon Mimi & Lee Adams award for supposed predictive capability and bravery at being at odds with "Officials"....including the man on stage who shook my hand at the ceremony.
The award is of no positive value.Got a dandy $$$ Adams art piece though along with a priceless healthy newfound awareness,sense of futility.

And the Florida Wildlife Federation Northeast office,envisioned in part to protect against Brannon Chaffee becomming a "de-facto" beltway,became reality.To this day The FWF and NE office is the very most,likely only credible advocate for Community,Planning,Recreation Lands,River Advocacy but who here reading this knows of any of this??(The early RiverKeeper Board produced nothing but blank faces when presented with the Beltway proposal.....)

Shifting the Beltway corridor away from existing Conservation Lands,Sector Plan oversight was a heroic Federation effort.Charlie Crist embraced the Federation, supported prudent planning,DCA,the Conservation Lands off limits in the face of general Crist Beltway support but the the greater impacts to surrounding community,vast wetland mitigation schemes still at issue.

My gut is the beltway will happen.So be it-almost worth loosing the Illusion.My gut also tells me socio/enviro/economic realities are such that there won't be many more projects like it in the future. And remotely possible the experience will help other communities,regions side step or greatly alter their future compared to what we made for ourselves,in a different season,mostly 'under the radar screen'.

There is no reasonable way that this project can be justified. 

The toll issue is an attempt to justify it in a manner that is not at all reasonable.

If the Mayor of Jacksonville had backed away from the Kings Avenue Garage, I do not believe that it could have been built.  The reason(s) that he would have given for backing away would not have mattered.

What would it take to kill the project forever?

Quote from: north miami on August 20, 2011, 08:50:56 PM
Tufsu   are you involved in BC corridor east-west roadway/wetland belt ?

I have no money or stake in the BC corridor

Quote from: dougskiles on August 21, 2011, 12:10:55 PM
What would it take to kill the project forever?

I seriously doubt that's even possible....it could come out of the adopted LRTP (although that's a steep hill to climb)...and could still be put back in later.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 21, 2011, 12:33:57 PM

Quote from: dougskiles on August 21, 2011, 12:10:55 PM
What would it take to kill the project forever?

I seriously doubt that's even possible....it could come out of the adopted LRTP (although that's a steep hill to climb)...and could still be put back in later.

The project is already dead but a lot of people aren't willing to admit it yet.  Welcome to "Weekend at Bernie's!" 

For the record I am generally in favor of tolls as a means for financing new roadway construction projects. 

Quote from: stephendare on August 21, 2011, 12:35:43 PM
Hmm.  Is that strictly true?  I thought you were on the TPO board that recommended, some say pushed the outer beltway?

sorry...I am hardly on the board...that is reserved for elected officials and oter agency board heads...nor am I on any of the committees

http://www.northfloridatpo.com/north_florida_tpo/board_committees/

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 21, 2011, 01:02:32 PM
For the record I am generally in favor of tolls as a means for financing new roadway construction projects. 

agreed...and this is the problem I have with the Mayor's statement...he didn't say he's opposed to the new road...he said he was opposed to the tolls.

btw...how would a public-private partnership work without tolls?

Stephen...stop playing games...why is it ok for you to parse words, but not others?

Fact is, my firm has done work on behalf of the TPO as a consultant....but I am not (nor ever have been) on the board/committees or staff of the agency.

All I have tried to do in this thread is inform people regarding the history and some of the data related to the Outer Beltway and the shorter Branan Field-Chafee Expressway.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 21, 2011, 07:25:55 PM
Stephen...stop playing games...why is it ok for you to parse words, but not others?

Fact is, my firm has done work on behalf of the TPO as a consultant....but I am not (nor ever have been) on the board/committees or staff of the agency.

All I have tried to do in this thread is inform people regarding the history and some of the data related to the Outer Beltway and the shorter Branan Field-Chafee Expressway.

The role of Planners & Consultants as key as formal Board,Committee figureheads.Once obscure to the general public,everything is different now and this P&C component worthy of scrutiny.

Elsewhere

Stop The Beltway. Go The Betterway


     www.gothebetterway.org/Home.html

Quote from: stephendare on August 21, 2011, 07:56:36 PM

TUFSU:

huh?

Im just asking for clarity.  I had thought you to say that you were a member of the TPO/MPO.  In this thread you have stated several times that it was a high priority of that organization.

I wasnt aware that your firm did work for them, but is it correct to say that you have never been a member of the TPO/MPO?

The TPO is a federally-mandated agency, so I guess all taxpayers are "members"...but no, I have never been on the board or any of its committees.

As far as the outer beltway being a top priority of the organization, that info. is public...and can be found here:

http://www.northfloridatpo.com/images/uploads/general/2011%20LOPP%20-%20Adopted%206-9-11.pdf

I was a teenager when the tolls came down in Duval County.  I still remember the toll coupon book that my mother kept in her car.  I did not even begin to drive until after the tolls went away.  Since then, I am sure that there is a generation of North Floridians who do not have a clue what this city was like when we had tolls.  I predict that tolls will become a more viable option for our area as time goes by and people forget their history.  Tommy Hazouri was right when he said that his obituary is destined to say that he helped rid our city of tolls.  I believe, however, that future generations will not have the same visceral reaction to the possibility of tolls...  It's not a matter of if, but when...

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 21, 2011, 06:42:05 PM

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 21, 2011, 01:02:32 PM
For the record I am generally in favor of tolls as a means for financing new roadway construction projects. 

agreed...and this is the problem I have with the Mayor's statement...he didn't say he's opposed to the new road...he said he was opposed to the tolls.

btw...how would a public-private partnership work without tolls?

How would a public private partnership work without a private partner?  That's what the mayor wants to know.

wait...I figured it out....maybe some landowners donated land

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 21, 2011, 09:56:36 PM
wait...I figured it out....maybe some landowners donated land

???

I think the donation was more in the way of votes...

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 21, 2011, 09:56:36 PM
wait...I figured it out....maybe some landowners donated land

What does this mean?  I have no idea.

land is part of the cost...if they donated land for free, then there is the private end of the partnership.

of course, that doesn't factor in the likely increase in value or marketability of the remainder of the land once the road is built

Are you deliberately missing the point here? 

As long as nobody wants to privately finance this toll road, then it can't be called a public private partnership in any commonly used sense of that term. 

The mayor is not saying that he is opposed to toll roads, only that if there is no private partner then this road shouldn't be tolled.  FDOT is trying to change the rules in order to keep the game going, and the mayor is calling them out on that ploy.

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 22, 2011, 08:06:57 AM
As long as nobody wants to privately finance this toll road, then it can't be called a public private partnership in any commonly used sense of that term. 

sure it can....if the total cost of building the road (including ROW) is say $500 million....and the land (valued at $200 million) is donated by private interests, then that would qualify as a funding partnership.

and please don't interpret this as my endorsement of the project

My opinion about the status of this project is not necessarily the same as my opinion about its value.

But surely you can't be serious in suggesting that a right of way donation is a type of public private partnership.

Indeed that would be a form of public-private partnership.

Saratoga Springs.  Reinhold.  Old Clay County Boosters. Kopeleousus' 177k plus car plus plus plus.....gonna bring the boondoggle home for the good ol' boys.....

It's coming folks, and in my lifetime.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 22, 2011, 01:44:49 PM
Indeed that would be a form of public-private partnership.

You're undermining everything else that you've put into this thread.

Are there enough voices in opposition to create an organized effort?  Similar to the one that north miami posted from Colorado?

Quote from: north miami on August 21, 2011, 08:00:25 PM
www.gothebetterway.org/Home.html (http://www.gothebetterway.org/Home.html)

Or do we resign ourselves to arguing about the definition of Public Private Partnership (which I believe to be an almost useless phrase now)?

Quote from: Gators312 on August 22, 2011, 01:56:23 PM
It's coming folks, and in my lifetime.

not in mine

Quote from: dougskiles on August 22, 2011, 03:22:23 PM
Are there enough voices in opposition to create an organized effort?  Similar to the one that north miami posted from Colorado?

Quote from: north miami on August 21, 2011, 08:00:25 PM
www.gothebetterway.org/Home.html (http://www.gothebetterway.org/Home.html)

It's still hard for me to take this project seriously.

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 22, 2011, 03:17:34 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 22, 2011, 01:44:49 PM
Indeed that would be a form of public-private partnership.

You're undermining everything else that you've put into this thread.

not really....there are many reasons I don't like this project...and I don't know specifically whether any land was donated or not for it...I was only speaking hypothetically.

But lets look at this in a different (more positive) light....suppose CSX donated land for additional tracks necessary for commuter rail (clearly this also benefits their freight operations)....would commuter rail implementation then qualify as a public-private partnership?

No

QuotePublicâ€"private partnership (PPP) describes a government service or private business venture which is funded and operated through a partnership of government and one or more private sector companies. These schemes are sometimes referred to as PPP, P3 or P3.

PPP involves a contract between a public sector authority and a private party, in which the private party provides a public service or project and assumes substantial financial, technical and operational risk in the project. In some types of PPP, the cost of using the service is borne exclusively by the users of the service and not by the taxpayer. In other types (notably the private finance initiative), capital investment is made by the private sector on the strength of a contract with government to provide agreed services and the cost of providing the service is borne wholly or in part by the government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public%E2%80%93private_partnership (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public%E2%80%93private_partnership)

(I hate to quote wikipedia but it's so d*** convenient.)

This whole road will definitely be built. And the tolls will definitely come.

I don't think we need this road but I KNOW it will be built.

Any new capacity on any new roads will be tolled. In the LRTP, it says they plan on adding new lanes on 95 on the southside and that they will be managed (aka tolls?)

The best reason to believe that this road will be built is the Hart Bridge Expressway.

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 22, 2011, 04:25:44 PM
The best reason to believe that this road will be built is the Hart Bridge Expressway.

Please tell us more.  I am not sure what you mean...

^I can see this.  They'll probably construct this 15-mile segment, it won't generate the anticipated revenue or come close to paying for itself and the rest will wither away to the same place that the bridge connecting Timuquana and JTB went.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 22, 2011, 04:44:47 PM
^I can see this.  They'll probably construct this 15-mile segment, it won't generate the anticipated revenue or come close to paying for itself and the rest will wither away to the same place that the bridge connecting Timuquana and JTB went.

Do you know if the Timuquana/JTB bridge got as far as having any studies done or was it killed off long before it reached that point.

Quote from: Jaxson on August 22, 2011, 04:40:26 PM

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 22, 2011, 04:25:44 PM
The best reason to believe that this road will be built is the Hart Bridge Expressway.

Please tell us more.  I am not sure what you mean...

Just because it would be a mistake doesn't mean that it's not gonna happen.

Quote from: cline on August 22, 2011, 04:47:04 PM
Do you know if the Timuquana/JTB bridge got as far as having any studies done or was it killed off long before it reached that point.

I don't know how far studies went but they did enough to consider and price out the cost of a tunnel option before it died.

Quote from: cline on August 22, 2011, 04:47:04 PM
Do you know if the Timuquana/JTB bridge got as far as having any studies done or was it killed off long before it reached that point.

I was directly involved with that "project."

It was included in the City of Jacksonville Comprehensive Plan as well as in the 1990* Plan of the Jacksonville Urban Area Transportation Study ("JUATS" was the predecessor to the MPO/TPO), but killed off long before any more meaningful planning studies were initiated. 

*1990 was the horizon year for the JUATS plan.  The JUATS plan itself was completed in 1973.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 22, 2011, 04:56:11 PM

Quote from: cline on August 22, 2011, 04:47:04 PM
Do you know if the Timuquana/JTB bridge got as far as having any studies done or was it killed off long before it reached that point.

I don't know how far studies went but they did enough to consider and price out the cost of a tunnel option before it died.

First hand recollections can be unreliable, but I don't remember anything about a tunnel option.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7655-jacksonville_bridge_maps.jpg)

Don't need recollections when you have scans saved in MJ's photo archives just in case the topic comes up.  However, it wasn't to JTB, the Southside end would have been University Blvd. If interested, go to the main library's special collections department and do a search on JTA.  There's a ton of forgotten information concerning Jax's history in there.

Here's a few more that were looked at but didn't happen:

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7649-riverside-park-expressway.jpg)
With this interchange, you wouldn't have to worry about keeping Riverside's duck pond clean.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7650-jax_expressway_original_concept.jpg)
The original plan for what becaome I-95 was designed as a trench, similar to Arlington Expressway.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7652-arlington_expressway_toll_booth.jpg)
Anyone remember the days when downtown and the Mathews Bridge were so busy that all four lanes flowed east during rush hour?

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7658-downtown_traffic_plan.jpg)
Think downtown's one way streets are bad now? Imagine if this loop had been put into place

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7656-arlington_expressway_alternative.jpg)
There was once a proposal to take out Springfield and Arlington with a bypass for the Arlington Expressway, as if I-95 didn't do enough damage to adjacent neighborhoods.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 22, 2011, 05:12:21 PM
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7655-jacksonville_bridge_maps.jpg)

Don't need recollections when you have scans saved in MJ's photo archives just in case the topic comes up.  However, it wasn't to JTB, the Southside end would have been University Blvd. If interested, go to the main library's special collections department and do a search on JTA.  There's a ton of forgotten information concerning Jax's history in there.

That's not the JUATS plan or the city's 1973 comprehensive plan.  I have my own copy of the JUATS plan in a file, and I have a copy of the city's comp plan somewhere.  In both of those plans there were not one but two bridges between the Buckman and Fuller Warren bridges.  One would have extended from 103rd street and the other would have been via an extension of Dancy Street.  But I can't recall where either of them would have connected on the southside.

My copy of the JUATS plan is actually a copy of the JUATS annual report for 1978, which shows one or both of those bridges crossed off the map.

Take it up with the FTU as bad journalism.  I wasn't around back then but there's definitely a newspaper clipping with a story about it and its in the library's special collections department.

As a joke Ed Mueller, who was the executive director of the JTA at that time, liked to refer to the JUATS plan as "the Three Governors' Plan" because it would have involved taking the homes of three then-living former governors of Florida: Fuller Warren, Hayden Burns, and somebody else.  My memory is faulty, so he might even have called it the Five Governors Plan, but I can't imagine that there were ever five living former Fla. governors living in Jacksonville, or that the plan would have hit all five of them.   Until very recently, Ed Mueller would show up occasionally at local ITE meetings, but he hasn't been to one lately.

Since this is the big boy thread, I have tried to minimize my input, but as to the question of public/private partnerships, one could argue the donation of land does fit into the category.

First, one owns a piece of real estate which has a value (however low that might be), donates it for a road building project, then the adjacent property becomes much more valuable due to the public funds used to improve (build roads) on the donated property.
(please disregard any complaints about sprawl or future infrastructure needs... Sprawl which increases the value of properties I own, is good sprawl)

It is akin to corporate welfare which could also be construed as a public/private partnership.

QuoteOne would have extended from 103rd street and the other would have been via an extension of Dancy Street.

Wow.  That's the first I've ever heard of the Dancy Street alignment.  Think about how that would have completely changed Riverside-Avondale.  It would have had a dramatic effect.

Do you think you could scan some of the highlights of the plan and post them?

Was it this project, or a similar one, that created RAP?  Meaning the neighborhood decided to band together and speak as one voice to protect themselves from more intrusive highway destruction.

Quote from: cline on August 22, 2011, 07:24:37 PM

QuoteOne would have extended from 103rd street and the other would have been via an extension of Dancy Street.

Wow.  That's the first I've ever heard of the Dancy Street alignment.  Think about how that would have completely changed Riverside-Avondale.  It would have had a dramatic effect.

Do you think you could scan some of the highlights of the plan and post them?

Some of this stuff was in the RAP video that came out about a year and a half ago. 

But yes, I could make a few scans of some of the stuff that I have kept.

The freeways through Riverside and Avondale were never very likely, but the plans that showed them would probably have had a chilling effect anyway.  By 1978 the freeways through Riverside and Avondale had been deleted from the JUATS transportation plan.

It's sad to think about all of the neighborhoods in the US that were not as lucky as Riverside-Avondale.

Also fortunately for Riverside and Avondale, the forecasts of traffic to and from downtown never rose to the levels that we had predicted.

I don't remember the year, but there are old Skyway concepts that had it going through Riverside down Post Street.  The plans had all the houses on the west side of the Post demolished and replaced with the Skyway, a multiuse path and a linear park.  The next time I'm at the library I'll try and remember to scan some of the graphics.

Separately from any skyway studies, a feasibililty study for a fixed guideway transit system was conducted from 1972 to 1974.  The line down Post Street was part of that plan.  Based on what was known about that study at that time, the Riverside Area Plan (1973) shows something like what you described.

I don't believe that the skyway plans ever went beyond the Fuller Warren.

Yes, the JUATS 1973 plans, including the Dancy Street bridge and another N-S xway thru Riverside/Avondale directly led to the formation of RAP.

I think the east end of the Dancy bridge would be around Atlantic Blvd. - destroying San Marco, too.

From 1962 to 1991, federal law required every urbanized area to have a long range plan for the complete elimination of traffic congestion.  As a consequence, a lot of freeways were planned that were never actually meant to be built, not just here in Jacksonville, but in nearly every city in the country.

Borrowing from the JUATS plan that required these freeways to be included, the city comprehensive plan also showed these planned freeways through Riverside.

There were at least two RAP meetings in 1974 where the JUATS plan and the city comprehensive plan were discussed.  These meetings were very well attended, and the attendees were highly motivated. 

But I do not believe that freeways were the main issue that drove the growth of RAP.   RAP had already been formed before the freeway issue came up, and the blanket rezoning of Riverside for mixed use development was a more immediate threat.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 22, 2011, 11:14:18 PM
Yes, the JUATS 1973 plans, including the Dancy Street bridge and another N-S xway thru Riverside/Avondale directly led to the formation of RAP.

I think the east end of the Dancy bridge would be around Atlantic Blvd. - destroying San Marco, too.

Quote from: stephendare on August 21, 2011, 12:35:43 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 21, 2011, 12:31:03 PM

Quote from: north miami on August 20, 2011, 08:50:56 PM
Tufsu   are you involved in BC corridor east-west roadway/wetland belt ?

I have no money or stake in the BC corridor

Hmm.  Is that strictly true?  I thought you were on the TPO board that recommended, some say pushed the outer beltway?

Quote from: dougskiles on August 21, 2011, 12:10:55 PM
What would it take to kill the project forever?

Three Million Dollar public interest,legal effort

Rick Scott meeting with Alvin Brown Monday

QuoteGov. Rick Scott will conclude his swing through the First Coast Monday with a meeting with Jacksonville Mayor Alvin Brown.

"Just to say hi," said Abel Harding, Brown's spokesman, of Scott's visit.

He said that port funding and toll roads "may also come up."

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/matt-dixon/2011-08-29/rick-scott-meeting-alvin-brown-monday

My old man made a good point about tolls yesterday that I hadn't really thought of. He said people didn't care so much about stopping for tolls for one-time trips, such as over the bridges to the airport, what they really hated was getting held up for extended periods in their daily commute. But today, for people who have to use a toll road or bridge daily, SunPass and similar systems has largely eliminated that inconvenience entirely. There's virtually no wait, no fumbling for change, no getting stuck behind someone who forgot to bring cash when you're just trying to get to work - you just slow down and drive through the thing. And the road is still subsidized by the people who use it rather than a tax payed for by everyone in the city. That thought really changed my opinion about tolls.

At first we might have thought that we could get tourists from out of state to pay more than their share of our infrastructure costs.

I grew up in Central Florida.  I have no problem with tolls other than the fact that they aren't high enough.  However, in regards to Central Florida, most local residents tend to avoid them, which is why the surface streets are so bad.  You'd be amazed how a network of local goat's paths can be immediately transformed into an arterial by local residents to avoid paying a $1 toll.  It doesn't sound like much but it adds up real quick, depending on the length and frequency of your commute.  Nevertheless, with the Outer Beltway, I think a larger issue is the fact that over $200 million in local money has been spent on the construction of what exists there today.  Sticking a toll on this street, without writing Jacksonville taxpayers a refund check is essentially double taxing.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 30, 2011, 05:33:19 PM
  Sticking a toll on this street, without writing Jacksonville taxpayers a refund check is essentially double taxing.

yet another sordid Brannon Chaffee Beltway chapter heading

Yeah, toll roads are good... Uh? Maybe not! The USA has 214 million motor vehicles and some 3.9 million miles of roads.  We have enough roadway to circle the Earth at the equator 157 times, add to that parking for 214 million cars . To visualize this consider that the total area covered in roads and parking is estimated to be a little over 61,000 square miles. The United States has put down enough asphalt and concrete to completely bury 8 northeastern states:


Yeah Rick, looks like a real deficiency to me, lets pave Duval and Clay! You know Rick, it's all about the Port and all of those ships that dock at Cecil Field, and all of those thousands of trucks that can't use I-10 or I-295 to find I-95 south. Of course it could be that gridlock of truckers trying to get to Middleburg from the Commerce Center. Rick please tell me how much money it will make, I don't want my dollars going to subsidize somebody's ride in a car. Don't forsee a profit? Oh I know Rick, your an idiot!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 30, 2011, 09:43:51 PM
Florida  7Th ranked in total road mileagle but number 22 out of 50 in size (square miles)
267,793

sorry but size in square miles is of little relevance....Florida is the 4th most popuulous state, which means we would need much more road mileage than a state like Alaska

I just received an email from the Clay County Chamber of Commerce urging people to send an email to Rick Scott in support of the Outer Beltway.  It states he is contempleting pulling the state's support for it.  They even go as far as to provide a handy email template to send to Scott outlining why the Outer Beltway is important.  These are the reasons they list:

o   to provide much needed connectivity and increase mobility of people and goods
o   to add capacity for safety during hurricane evacuations/disasters
o   to preserve the quality of the natural environment
o   to stimulate quality jobs and economic prosperity

I was just wondering how exactly building the Outer Beltway preserves the quality of the natural environment?

Can't see how it would help in emergency evacuations.  Wouldn't they all ultimately funnel into an already-clogged I-95/I-10 like they did in Hurricane Floyd?  Best I can see is that it would get them to the traffic jam a little faster.  The connectivity is already there, the plan is just to make it bigger and more expensive.  So, with 1, 2 and 3 shot down, I think we are really talking about a few years of temporary jobs while the road is built, followed by more suburban sprawl.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 30, 2011, 05:33:19 PM
Sticking a toll on this street, without writing Jacksonville taxpayers a refund check is essentially double taxing.

That is my conclusion from reading over 7 pages of this very thread.

-Josh

Quote from: cline on August 31, 2011, 11:02:43 AM
I just received an email from the Clay County Chamber of Commerce urging people to send an email to Rick Scott in support of the Outer Beltway.  It states he is contempleting pulling the state's support for it.  They even go as far as to provide a handy email template to send to Scott outlining why the Outer Beltway is important.  These are the reasons they list:

o   to provide much needed connectivity and increase mobility of people and goods
o   to add capacity for safety during hurricane evacuations/disasters
o   to preserve the quality of the natural environment
o   to stimulate quality jobs and economic prosperity

I was just wondering how exactly building the Outer Beltway preserves the quality of the natural environment?

The email template was probably written by KB, Pulte, SEDA and every other builder in the area. Not to mention the heavily construction influenced local tea party.

All I here is from Clay County is Spwarl, Spwarl, Spwarl. Sounds like they have selfish reasons for wanting this to happen.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 30, 2011, 09:48:50 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 30, 2011, 09:43:51 PM
Florida  7Th ranked in total road mileagle but number 22 out of 50 in size (square miles)
267,793

sorry but size in square miles is of little relevance....Florida is the 4th most popuulous state, which means we would need much more road mileage than a state like Alaska

Why then is New York's highway mileage not greater then ours? No excuses TU, most of Florida's population is found within 3 quite narrow strips of land Central, Southeast, Southwest, with vast miles of land that is not buildable or highly restricted. Too many roads is too many roads and it's time we look at alternatives.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 30, 2011, 05:16:54 PM
At first we might have thought that we could get tourists from out of state to pay more than their share of our infrastructure costs.

Actually Dan, you might be onto something. I propose we install $25 dollar toll booths at all border crossings, exempting only border locals. We'll use the extra money to pave Orange County.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Debbie Thompson on August 31, 2011, 12:59:16 PM
Can't see how it would help in emergency evacuations.  Wouldn't they all ultimately funnel into an already-clogged I-95/I-10 like they did in Hurricane Floyd? 

as a result of Floyd, the state developed reverse lane strategies....as an example, I-10 west of I-295 can now be 4/6 lanes westbound in an evacuation.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 31, 2011, 02:27:09 PM
Why then is New York's highway mileage not greater then ours?

because while land size (in square miles) doesn't matter, density (as in persons per square mile) does.

and, btw....Florida will likely pass NY in total population in the next 5 years

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-08-31/rick-scott-rethinking-plans-toll-first-coast-outer (http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-08-31/rick-scott-rethinking-plans-toll-first-coast-outer)

QuoteUPDATE: Brown spokesman Abel Harding confirms that the mayor did talk to Scott about the Outer Beltway earlier this week. Brown expressed concern about bring tolls back. But Harding also said Brown understands he's not in charge of this project, and can't stop it.

If FDOT had been all gung-ho for building it in the first place, it would have been completed a long time ago.  Now that the market for new single family homes has all but dried up, it makes even less sense now.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 31, 2011, 03:58:44 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 31, 2011, 02:27:09 PM
Why then is New York's highway mileage not greater then ours?

because while land size (in square miles) doesn't matter, density (as in persons per square mile) does.

and, btw....Florida will likely pass NY in total population in the next 5 years

Thank you TU, you made my point, DENSITY MATTERS and less mindless road building through whatever is left of virgin Florida land will equal more DENSITY and less sprawl. A focus on mass transit will better serve a dense population then a 2 lane asphalt strip.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on August 30, 2011, 05:33:19 PM
I have no problem with tolls other than the fact that they aren't high enough. 

If the toll is punitive and if it works, then the total revenue from the toll goes way down, and the economic justification for the road is taken away.  London has a "toll" for cars entering its central area.  NYC tried to impose its own "toll" but it failed, mainly due to opposition from voters in the outer boroughs (Queens, Brooklyn, The Bronx, and Staten Island).

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 31, 2011, 03:56:30 PM

Quote from: Debbie Thompson on August 31, 2011, 12:59:16 PM
Can't see how it would help in emergency evacuations.  Wouldn't they all ultimately funnel into an already-clogged I-95/I-10 like they did in Hurricane Floyd? 

as a result of Floyd, the state developed reverse lane strategies....as an example, I-10 west of I-295 can now be 4/6 lanes westbound in an evacuation.
[/

During height of impending Floyd hysteria Mayor Delaney used precious public announcement slots to tout future new roadway construction as "evacuation".Classic side step to Delaney Green Image Era pronouncement that "we can't build our way out of congestion"(FTU)

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 31, 2011, 04:59:59 PM

QuoteUPDATE: Brown spokesman Abel Harding confirms that the mayor did talk to Scott about the Outer Beltway earlier this week. Brown expressed concern about bring tolls back. But Harding also said Brown understands he's not in charge of this project, and can't stop it.

as I said, the Mayor can't do much here on his own....that said, there sure are some interesting discussions going on right now

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 31, 2011, 05:18:02 PM
Thank you TU, you made my point, DENSITY MATTERS and less mindless road building through whatever is left of virgin Florida land will equal more DENSITY and less sprawl. A focus on mass transit will better serve a dense population then a 2 lane asphalt strip.

well the contrarian would say that development out there would have more density than the current undeveloped land

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 31, 2011, 04:59:59 PM
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-08-31/rick-scott-rethinking-plans-toll-first-coast-outer (http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-08-31/rick-scott-rethinking-plans-toll-first-coast-outer)



If FDOT had been all gung-ho for building it in the first place, it would have been completed a long time ago.  Now that the market for new single family homes has all but dried up, it makes even less sense now.

There was an era when roadway boosters made glib reference to "DOT wants it"

Boosters included County Planners referencing the DOT Wants It mantra and in the case of Brannon Chaffee Beltway Little Back Creek Crossing,Freedom Commerce  and others this local chant was finally repudiated by DOT......DOT takes the lead from Local Government.This too would soon pass.Who here ever knew of it?

FDOT was lukewarm at best with the Beltway.Some soon to retire Lake City DOT staff persons very transparent.

Quote from: tufsu1 link=topic=12971.

well the contrarian would say that development out there would have more density than the current undeveloped land
/quote]

references will be made to conservation,cluster,percentage of "open space" which really is driven by the presence of broad wetland belts which typically total 30% or more of any given Stage Acreage.

"Mass transit"(and the future BC RW hardly discussed here) was a key promotion touted to  Sector Plan citizen participants,others.The press grew relaxed with the BC future transit RW commitment promotions.

(Of course,one key BC planning session revolved around Clay Countians "vision"for neighborhoods just like .......Avondale!!!!.....the actual demand more on the order of Rural Fringe five/ten acre...)

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 31, 2011, 10:38:46 PM

Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 31, 2011, 04:59:59 PM

QuoteUPDATE: Brown spokesman Abel Harding confirms that the mayor did talk to Scott about the Outer Beltway earlier this week. Brown expressed concern about bring tolls back. But Harding also said Brown understands he's not in charge of this project, and can't stop it.

as I said, the Mayor can't do much here on his own....that said, there sure are some interesting discussions going on right now

Out there in asphalt-land, there must be someone with influence who doesn't want this project to go forward.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 31, 2011, 10:40:50 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 31, 2011, 05:18:02 PM
Thank you TU, you made my point, DENSITY MATTERS and less mindless road building through whatever is left of virgin Florida land will equal more DENSITY and less sprawl. A focus on mass transit will better serve a dense population then a 2 lane asphalt strip.

well the contrarian would say that development out there would have more density than the current undeveloped land

In terms of economic impact, farms and timberland cost the taxpayer nothing and generate a positive return in terms of sales taxes, employment, etc. Subdivisions, as you know after having your ass handed to you on this exact point 64 times by everyone from me and Stephen to Ron Barton, do not come close to paying for themselves. Low-density housing is a net negative for taxpayers, and for the economy generally given the commutes, the fact that these developments pull residents from other places, etc. You're replacing a net positive economic contribution, or at worse neutral, with a net negative, and one that we have to largely foot the bill for.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 31, 2011, 10:40:50 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 31, 2011, 05:18:02 PM
Thank you TU, you made my point, DENSITY MATTERS and less mindless road building through whatever is left of virgin Florida land will equal more DENSITY and less sprawl. A focus on mass transit will better serve a dense population then a 2 lane asphalt strip.

well the contrarian would say that development out there would have more density than the current undeveloped land

In the same way that Ponce De Leon, Daniel Boone or Jessie Chisholm could lay claim to being density developers. Spending the night in the Oregon forest with that sweet Native American girl produced 'density'. My desert cabin in California is certifiably 500 miles from nowhere and 2 feet from hell, but you could call it density if you want. I think we're all grown up enough to know the difference, the beltway will not create density.

OCKLAWAHA

Jennifer Carroll reiterates Outer Beltway support, says Alvin Brown now supports it as well

QuoteGov. Rick Scott has not changed his mind on building the First Coast Outer Beltway as a toll road from Interstate 10 to Blanding Boulevard.

But Lt. Gov. Jennifer Carroll says Jacksonville Mayor Alvin Brown has withdrawn his criticism of the Outer Beltway after meeting with state officials and learning more about the project. Brown criticized plans to toll the road two weeks ago, saying the area didn't need tolls, and the project didn't make economic sense.

Officials with the mayors office have not yet confirmed or denied Carroll's claim.

Earlier this week the Clay County Chamber of Commerce sent out an email saying Gov. Rick Scott is contemplating pulling support for the project. The email urged people to call the governor's office and express their support for building and tolling the Outer Beltway.



The email did not say why Scott might be rethinking state support. It also doesn't say how the Chamber came to learn that Scott might pull the funding, Chamber officials have declined to say why the e-mail went out.

Carroll said she believed the e-mail was sent after Brown expressed opposition to the project.

If so, lets hope he gets something out of the deal that benefits Jacksonville taxpayers because the Outer Beltway project, as proposed, does not.

I'm on the fence about this project. This is essential for future growth and the tolls should be for all new freeways, but the road is already there. And I don't see many more people moving there once the road is finished. I think the ROW should be bought but the road shouldn't be built until halfway needed.

I'm not on the fence because:

1. Its not "essential" for future growth.  There has been nothing presented to indicate that future growth can't happen without spending a total of $1.8 billion to construct the Outer Beltway and permanantly subsidize it with annual $50 million maintenance costs.

2.  I'm for tolls but the toll should be increased to cover the road's actual costs to taxpayers.  Yes, this means covering the costs needed to improve local streets feeding into it, extra police/fire/schools/parks, the public employees needed to support them and the pension costs that come along with those extra employees.

3.  Jacksonville residents have already paid for their stretch of road, with BJP dollars.  Thus, the capacity is in place to accommodate future growth in Duval County right now.  Without taking the tolls off the Jacksonville stretch, you're essentially double taxing Duval County to fund the significant upgrades needed in Clay.

4. If the road is build, Clay should not be allowed to continue building low density development along the corridor.  They should be forced to densify along this corridor as much as possible to generate extra vehicle trips and tax revenue needed to maintain it and future growth. 

5. No need to buy ROW, because the road in its current configuration isn't "needed."  There's no traffic forcasting model out there that shows our region would shrivel up and die if it isn't built.  In short, there's a huge difference between needs and wants.  This one is a want.

6. It was promoted for years as a P3 project, but the private sector continues to say no thanks because its too high of a financial risk.  Its kind of ironic that this same State Government killed HSR by claiming it was too much of a risk for taxpayers, while it had 6 or 7 private enties willing to put their money into it.  Hypocritical at best.

Oh, and unlike most in my industry (transportation engineering and planning), I'm not afraid to publicly voice my opposition to it.  Having a job is great and the company I work for could use some extra work, but as a taxpayer and Duval County resident, I'm not willing to put my job before my children, family, community and city's long term financial health.

Good points. Those are pretty hard to argue against.

and why build a northwest road to help alleviate traffic moving northeast?  There is nothing, but foolishness based around this project and I am disappointed with the new mayor giving in. 

Because its not about alleviating traffic.  That's just one of the things that sounds good selling to the public. Sort of like the Clay County Chamber letter about the road being done to protect the natural environment.  This is about short term job creation and opening rural land up to development.  Unfortunately, while it will benefit a few, the public will be on the hook long term for anything that doesn't pay for itself (ex. feeder roads, utility lines, traffic signals, ROW lawn care, extra sheriff/fire/parks/libraries/pensions, etc.).

From my MJ email account:

QuoteBROWN ADMINISTRA​TION RESPONDS TO COMMENTS BY LT. GOV. CARROLL ON OUTER BELTWAY PROJECT

State Senator Tony Hill, who sponsored legislation to facilitate the Outer Beltway project, responded to remarks made by Lt. Governor Jennifer Carroll about the Outer Beltway Project on behalf of the Brown Administration: “On Thursday, Mayor Brown spoke with Governor Scott and met with Florida Secretary of Transportation Prasad and District Secretary Mosley. He told all of them he supports the goals of the Outer Beltway project and welcomes the jobs and infrastructure it will create that will help grow JaxPort and move our regional economy to the next level. As you know, Mayor Brown strongly believes in public-private partnerships. Mayor Brown also reminded them of his strong opposition to tolls. He does not support tolls. He is not opposed to the project moving forward because Jacksonville residents will continue to have free roads they can use to access neighborhoods near the Outer Beltway.”

I guess the Clay County Chamber took some heat for that Outer Beltway email they sent out:

QuoteAlvin Brown opposed Outer Beltway tolls, now (Jennifer Carroll says) he's on board

Lt. Gov. Jennifer Carroll today told the Times-Union's Larry Hannan that Jacksonville Mayor Alvin Brown now supports building the First Coast Outer Beltway as a toll road from Interstate 10 to Blanding Boulevard.

It is a different story than Brown gave Hannan during an interview last month.

"I'm disappointed that something is being done in tough economic times that will cost people more money," he said. "We got rid of tolls a long time ago and now is not the time to bring them back."

Brown's people have yet to get back to Hannan regarding his apparent change of heart.

Meanwhile, Kellie Jo Kilberg, president of the Clay County Chamber of Commerce, resigned Friday after eight years on the job.

Her resignation comes two weeks after the Chamber sent out an email (below) asking people to use a template to reach out to Gov. Rick Scott and express support for the toll project. It does not mention Brown by name, but was sent out after he said he was not behind the project.

In her resignation letter, Kilberg said "it was time to move on; that a new person needs to build on the foundation that she, the chamber staff and the volunteers created during her tenure," according to a news release.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/matt-dixon/2011-09-02/alvin-brown-opposed-outer-beltway-tolls-now-jennifer?cid=hp-justin

As a resident in Clay who owns a business located in Jax but operates throughout NE Florida SE Georgia I do not see the need for more sprawl in this region.  We should concentrate on creating density and vibrancy on our streets.  Not super highways that divide areas and create more dead end cul de sacs.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 02, 2011, 08:27:34 PM
Because its not about alleviating traffic.

the image  of Blanding Blvd. "Congestion Alleviation", no matter how knowingly erroneous,was a proven effective Brannon Chaffee driver.Both the Clay Chamber and particularly the Florida Times Union implicated.
The premise of the FDOT Brannon Chaffee permit application that the Brannon Chaffee leg project as applied for was "stand alone", with "no future plans for extension ........." was equally erroneous,or worse.

I knew then that only current events could illuminate the illusions.

Quote from: iMarvin on September 02, 2011, 05:29:53 PM
. I think the ROW should be bought but the road shouldn't be built until halfway needed.

consider the considerable ROW depicted in the Brannon Chaffee Sector Plan.

Brannon Chaffee Sector Plan,Lake Asbury Sector Pan (including attempt NUMBER ONE-yes...."yelling") should be by now memorized by most commenting here.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 02, 2011, 08:27:34 PM
Because its not about alleviating traffic.  That's just one of the things that sounds good selling to the public. Sort of like the Clay County Chamber letter about the road being done to protect the natural environment.  This is about short term job creation and opening rural land up to development.  Unfortunately, while it will benefit a few, the public will be on the hook long term for anything that doesn't pay for itself (ex. feeder roads, utility lines, traffic signals, ROW lawn care, extra sheriff/fire/parks/libraries/pensions, etc.).

ehh..... and nothing they have said makes any sense in any way from a logistical standpoint/ infrastructure/ industry/ port???.  We will pay for this mistake later.  Just like all the houses we kept building without the demand.  I guess Rick Scott and to say he created some jobs when his term is over.  Why would he care what happens when he is out of office.  He gets to sail off in his yacht while we pay for the bills. 

The "this benefits the JAXPORT" talk is even sillier unless we're talking about the Clay County Port or a road builder shipping bulk materials for this project through JAXPORT.  If we're talking about Clay County Port, then there's an argument that Duval County residents money shouldn't be going to it.  If we're talking about short term job creation by shipping construction materials through JAXPORT, then there needs to be a conversation on whether creating short term jobs is worth long term subsidization, considering our muncipal budget is already underwater and expected to sink deeper.

this is why I never liked what Brown said a few weeks back...he was never opposed to the road, just the tolls....it made this "switch" in position really easy

and, as Lake noted, there is a likeliood that Brown got something from the Governor and/or FDOT for his endorsement of the project

Tony Hill

Mayor's office has been joined at the hip with Beltway Boosters for decades.
Delaney,Wiles pivotal.

above all it is only all about the rest of us.

I was hoping that Brown's reason (only no tolls) was a lack of good reporting at the TU and not the only reason he opposed the road.  In my opinion it is probably the least of the bad reasons to build the road.  I do sure Brown has cooked up a deal to get something else out of this.  That is where I thought the port might come in, but....prob not. 

So maybe I was wrong to say this project is dead.

But my premature optimism does demonstrate how someone's beliefs (this is a bad project) can influence his or her expectations (this project won't get built). 

To keep a bias like that under control,  it helps to be able to gather together a lot of different opinions from people who have differing points of view.

Long live Metro Jacksonville!

Quote from: thelakelander on September 02, 2011, 05:45:27 PM
Oh, and unlike most in my industry (transportation engineering and planning), I'm not afraid to publicly voice my opposition to it.  Having a job is great and the company I work for could use some extra work, but as a taxpayer and Duval County resident, I'm not willing to put my job before my children, family, community and city's long term financial health.

It's usually pointless for an engineer or planner to suppress his or her own opinions.  They'll come out anyway.

Behind closed doors.  I've been in the industry long enough to know that there are those who suppress their own true opinions for the sake of getting a steady paycheck.  This is true, regardless of profession.

Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 03, 2011, 02:24:24 PM
So maybe I was wrong to say this project is dead.

But my premature optimism does demonstrate how someone's beliefs (this is a bad project) can influence his or her expectations (this project won't get built). 

To keep a bias like that under control,  it helps to be able to gather together a lot of different opinions from people who have differing points of view.

Long live Metro Jacksonville!

You were out there.  However, I thought you were speaking about the entire project, not this 15-mile segment.   As for the entire project, there's a great chance it never happens and the construction of this 15-mile segment may be the final nail in its coffin.

I'm still reading... And loving lake more and more as I read on.

Lakelander for Mayor! (Or at least Director of JTA)

Quote from: thelakelander on September 03, 2011, 02:56:21 PM
Behind closed doors.  I've been in the industry long enough to know that there are those who suppress their own true opinions for the sake of getting a steady paycheck.  This is true, regardless of profession.

After almost 40 years in "the industry," I'm not sure that I would still agree with that observation.

People are generally sincere about their own personal opinions, no matter how ignorant or objectionable those opinions may seem to be. 

Fortunately for us professionals, we are responsible for presenting conclusions based on facts. Most of the time, our personal opinions are irrelevant.

^Different life and different experiences I guess.  You're lucky to not have experienced in 40 years what I've come across in 15.

QuoteFortunately for us professionals, we are responsible for presenting conclusions based on facts.

So you believe there's a need for the Outer Beltway based on facts?  If so, why are you against it?

My opinion, based on my assessment of the facts, is that it's a bad project. 

That doesn't mean that I would disqualify myself from working for someone who holds a different opinion.

Cool, but that's not what I asked, based on your quote above. But it doesn't matter. I have some other things to tend to.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 03, 2011, 03:36:06 PM
^Different life and different experiences I guess.  You're lucky to not have experienced in 40 years what I've come across in 15.

Check back with yourself in about 20 years, and see how you feel then.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 03, 2011, 03:36:06 PM
So you believe there's a need for the Outer Beltway based on facts?  If so, why are you against it?

??? Please rephrase this question.  The way it's written I don't understand it.

No need to. Facts and situations dealt with in the past won't change 20 years from now. Come on, this is silly.  For example, I don't need to live another twenty years to know and understand it hurt when I fell off my bike 27 years ago. Lets get back on topic.

Don't worry about the question. I'm watching my kids swim.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 03, 2011, 06:11:01 PM
No need to. Facts and situations dealt with in the past won't change 20 years from now. Come on, this is silly.  For example, I don't need to live another twenty years to know and understand it hurt when I fell off my bike 27 years ago. Lets get back on topic.

27 years ago it really mattered when you fell off your bike. 

Now - not so much.

Lol, So....what about that thing called the Outer Beltway?

Check back with me when they've figured out a way to pay for it.  Tolls won't do that job.

Now that, I agree with. Everyone is in for a rude awakening if they expect tolls to cover the costs. There was a reason the private sector ran away from this thing and being a money loser was a major factor.

As for the project itself, I don't think either one of us has posted anything on this thread that the other one of us has disagreed with.   I was just overly optimistic about the implications of the mayor's initial announcement.

curiouser and curiouser!

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-09-10/story/rick-scott-says-alvin-brown-backs-toll-road-mayor-still-says-no (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-09-10/story/rick-scott-says-alvin-brown-backs-toll-road-mayor-still-says-no)

QuoteFor the second time in a week, Jacksonville Mayor Alvin Brown is pushing back against statements that he supports a plan to turn the First Coast Outer Beltway into a toll road.

QuoteScott also said that Brown's initial public pushback could affect the flow of state dollars to Northeast Florida.  "If he's against projects like that ... I'll tell [FDOT head] Ananth Prasad ... don't go spend your time here."

Am I naive to think that this might be an unusual thing for a governor to say?

It does sound kind of childish.  There must be something going on behind closed doors that the general public doesn't know.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 11, 2011, 08:11:18 PM
It does sound kind of childish.  There must be something going on behind closed doors that the general public doesn't know.

The Outer Beltway was born and raised in relative obscurity.

Mayor Brown would do well for all interests to draw upon your insights Lake.

This back and forth does seems strange. I wonder if we'll ever know what's going on.

I think having tolls will cause more traffic in that area.

^I would have thought that too, but, according to my father who travels all over state and uses toll roads regularly, the SunPass system largely takes care of that for regular users. Obviously it's more inconvenience than no tolls, but it does mean that the roads can be subsidized by users rather than everybody.

The tolls will increase the traffic counts on local streets like Old Middleburg Road, which is a 2-lane rural road.  One of the things that bugs me about the toll road issue is that tolls don't cover the true cost of their impact on the landscape they penetrate. 

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/793874286_9CyT8-M.jpg)
Who pays for all these future roads needed to feed traffic into the Outer Beltway?  You the taxpayer, that's who!

Widening, improving, extending local streets like Old Middleburg Road will have to subsidized by us for eternity.  Assuming unsustainable sprawl happens, we'll be on the hook for new schools, parks, police, fire, libraries, their staffs/pensions, equipment and every other thing needed to support the additional public services.  However, without investing in these items, a project like the Outer Beltway will never come close to generating the traffic/tolls it needs to meet the fuzzy projection math being promoted by FDOT.

Quote from: Tacachale on September 12, 2011, 10:45:23 AM
^I would have thought that too, but, according to my father who travels all over state and uses toll roads regularly, the SunPass system largely takes care of that for regular users. Obviously it's more inconvenience than no tolls, but it does mean that the roads can be subsidized by users rather than everybody.

Coming from Central Florida, everybody pays because the tolls don't cover their true costs.  We just pay in more indirect ways.  These include constructing and maintaining local feeder roads, utilities for new development, new schools, etc.

^But the side roads, utilities for new development, etc. would have happened whether there are tolls or not. At least with tolls some part of the expense is subsidized by the toll payers.

That would be similar to saying that there's no need to have a budget or savings plan because we're going to spend money regardless.  You can't look at it that way.  We have the power to determine our growth patterns and growth doesn't necessarily equate to having to fund a significant amount of roadway construction to faciliate low density development.  With that said, I'm not against the concept of tolls.  I actually prefer them, given the amount of money we burn on roads.  They are no different than charging people to pay a fare to ride a bus or train. 

^What I'm saying is, if you're going to have a road, tolls allow some of the cost to be subsidized by the users. That doesn't mean that this or any road in particular is a good idea, only that tolls are not a bad idea, especially factoring in the new technology for them.

In general I agree. However, each project should be evaluated on its own merits. To date, it still hasn't been proven the beltway is needed or the best fiscal/economic mobility improvement for the corridor, Clay or Jacksonville. We're sweeping a large issue concerning our community's future right under the rug by tying this project into a general discussion on the validity of tolls.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 12, 2011, 12:49:53 PM
In general I agree. However, each project should be evaluated on its own merits. To date, it still hasn't been proven the beltway is needed or the best fiscal/economic mobility improvement for the corridor, Clay or Jacksonville. We're sweeping a large issue concerning our community's future right under the rug by tying this project into a general discussion on the validity of tolls.

Agreed.And had it not been for the Toll issue there wouldn't be any elevated,readily identifiable discourse regarding community needs and issues.


Possibly it is simple as the fact that there are entrenched forces that lend or develop a sense of futility.
Certainly "Reporting" efforts have been disjointed,manipulated or plain absent.

If I was an advocate for this highway I think that I'd be plenty frustrated by now.

Many many years ago the Clay Chamber hosted Lobster dinner bash in Tallahassee during one of many Sessions that saw the very most basic aspirations for current Brannon Chaffee dashed.......

The Boosters have enjoyed slow but steady lurch forward.Few know of the historical fits and starts better than the Boosters.

Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 12, 2011, 08:34:12 PM
If I was an advocate for this highway I think that I'd be plenty frustrated by now.

I think those opposed to this road are equally frustrated

Yes.  It's quite frustrating to see this boondoggle have more lives than a cat.  Any other infrastructure project would have died years ago.

I'm just saying...

There are plenty of people out there - engineers, planners, and politicians - who believe that building this road would demonstrate good planning.  I can't think of any way to change their minds, so maybe this back and forth stuff is the best that we can hope for.  As long as its supporters are arguing among themselves about how to pay for it, this project ain't going anywhere.

Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 13, 2011, 06:49:39 AM
I can't think of any way to change their minds, so maybe this back and forth stuff is the best that we can hope for

Good point.  The amount of public dialogue going on now typically hasn't happened with projects like this.

QuoteAs long as its supporters are arguing among themselves about how to pay for it, this project ain't going anywhere.

I believe they'll build this 15-mile stretch as a toll road.  However, years down the road, it will serve as an "I told you so" for those who continue to mention that the tolls won't pay for themselves and that Jacksonville won't benefit from this subsidy to Clay County.

Unfortunately we already have a full plate of "I told you so" projects around here.

Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 13, 2011, 11:04:33 AM
Unfortunately we already have a full plate of "I told you so" projects around here.

+1

Everything we've done for the last several decades has turned into an "I told you so" deal, do we really need 1 more?

True, but how do you stop it?  I'm all ears.

I think it would help if our elected officials would stop allowing projects to move forward based on an small number of wealthy private interests (landowners, developers) and instead started working towards what was best for the community as a whole.  This project is the embodiment of the efforts of a few elites who stand to gain monetarily- nothing more.  That's the reason it has not and will not die.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 13, 2011, 02:11:15 PM
True, but how do you stop it?  I'm all ears.

Sometimes you are. The convention center is a prime "Told you so" project waiting to happen. So's this toll road.

Instead of wasting money on this kind of crap, just stop. Who says every dime collected has to be spent at all, let alone on stuff like this? Instead of trying to spur suburban devlopment, spur urban development. Start selling off the city-owned properties in and around downtown for $1 each to qualified buyers with reverter clauses that they're developed within 5-10 years or else the vacant land reverts back to the city. Ditto with Lavilla, brooklyn, etc. Get rid of paid parking, open the city garages for free. Start grant programs for opening businesses in the core. Fund the creation of the streetcar system ASAP instead of maybe in 10-15 years. Eliminate arcane and asinine zoning restrictions. I have covered all of this in 4 years' worth of posts on your site, it's a lot to type in one summary, but I've covered all the main points.

Quote from: cline on September 13, 2011, 02:23:00 PM
I think it would help if our elected officials would stop allowing projects to move forward based on an small number of wealthy private interests (landowners, developers) and instead started working towards what was best for the community as a whole.  This project is the embodiment of the efforts of a few elites who stand to gain monetarily- nothing more.  That's the reason it has not and will not die.

+1

Even on this website there are a lot of posts that I would consider to be anti-planning.  That's probably because the planning process around here has been subverted on behalf of a handful of self-proclaimed leaders. 

If you look at Riverside Avondale and how it got to be a great neighborhood, that's a textbook case for how planning is supposed to work. 

If you look at downtown, then that's an example of how planning around here has been subverted.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 13, 2011, 02:25:54 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 13, 2011, 02:11:15 PM
True, but how do you stop it?  I'm all ears.

Sometimes you are.

I'm all ears 100% of the time.  However, that doesn't mean I'll always agree with a certain position.  You'll be hard pressed to find one example of where I've simply refused to listen or stop anyone from making their point.

QuoteInstead of wasting money on this kind of crap, just stop. Who says every dime collected has to be spent at all, let alone on stuff like this? Instead of trying to spur suburban devlopment, spur urban development. Start selling off the city-owned properties in and around downtown for $1 each to qualified buyers with reverter clauses that they're developed within 5-10 years or else the vacant land reverts back to the city. Ditto with Lavilla, brooklyn, etc. Get rid of paid parking, open the city garages for free. Start grant programs for opening businesses in the core. Fund the creation of the streetcar system ASAP instead of maybe in 10-15 years. Eliminate arcane and asinine zoning restrictions. I have covered all of this in 4 years' worth of posts on your site, it's a lot to type in one summary, but I've covered all the main points.

Not saying these things shouldn't be done but realistically speaking, they won't before this particular project breaks ground.  So how do we stop this particular project from breaking ground in a few months?

Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 13, 2011, 02:56:08 PM
Even on this website there are a lot of posts that I would consider to be anti-planning.  That's probably because the planning process around here has been subverted on behalf of a handful of self-proclaimed leaders. 

If you look at Riverside Avondale and how it got to be a great neighborhood, that's a textbook case for how planning is supposed to work. 

If you look at downtown, then that's an example of how planning around here has been subverted.

Care to further explain?

Planning is a long term collaborative process that involves a wide range of actively involved and knowledgeable stakeholders.  Riverside Avondale is the result of such a process. 

If you have a specific outcome in mind before you begin the planning process, then planning is subverted into a meaningless exercise.

I agree. Care to mention a specific example?

You tell me:

Do we need a new plan for downtown, or do we have too many downtown plans already?

Personally, I don't think we need a new plan for downtown.  Based on what has worked in other communities, I'd like to see some policies that restrict innovation and creativity removed/modified to let the free market take control of downtown.   That seems to be more fiscal responsible and effective than....say rounding up a $150 million to sink in a convention center with the belief that such a project will lead to DT vibrancy and revitalization.

Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 13, 2011, 02:56:08 PM
Even on this website there are a lot of posts that I would consider to be anti-planning.  That's probably because the planning process around here has been subverted on behalf of a handful of self-proclaimed leaders.

Nevertheless, this comment you made, reads to me like you're claiming this Metro Jacksonville site is somehow subverting planning processes from happening.  So if you really believe that, I'm asking you to cite some actual examples.  If that's not what you were saying, then I simply misunderstood the comment.

With what you said about the need for a downtown plan, you've answered your own question.

Do you also think that we've already done enough planning for the streetcar?

No. The planning process is ongoing. Also, I'm not following your assumption that I'm stopping an entire community from properly planning its future by voicing my opinion on a website.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 13, 2011, 02:11:15 PM
True, but how do you stop it?  I'm all ears.

Caution. Beltway Boosters monitoring MJ for any hint of potential trouble.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 13, 2011, 05:41:31 PM
No. The planning process is ongoing. Also, I'm not following your assumption that I'm stopping an entire community from properly planning its future by voicing my opinion on a website.

The reason why you're  not following that assumption is because I am not making that assumption.

Opinions on a website are fine and dandy, but some of the opinions that have been posted about planning are alarming to me as a planner.  For example, I find it very hard to imagine how anyone could think that we don't need a new plan for downtown.  The plan we have is obviously not working and even if it was working it's got to be more than ten years old by now.  And what has that got to do with the likely cost of a new downtown convention center?

Quote from: north miami on September 13, 2011, 06:31:24 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 13, 2011, 02:11:15 PM
True, but how do you stop it?  I'm all ears.

Caution. Beltway Boosters monitoring MJ for any hint of potential trouble.

Quote from: north miami on September 13, 2011, 06:31:24 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 13, 2011, 02:11:15 PM
True, but how do you stop it?  I'm all ears.

Caution. Beltway Boosters monitoring MJ for any hint of potential trouble.

ok..my turn to sound like Lake...care to explain?

Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 13, 2011, 07:32:11 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 13, 2011, 05:41:31 PM
No. The planning process is ongoing. Also, I'm not following your assumption that I'm stopping an entire community from properly planning its future by voicing my opinion on a website.

The reason why you're  not following that assumption is because I am not making that assumption.

Opinions on a website are fine and dandy, but some of the opinions that have been posted about planning are alarming to me as a planner.  For example, I find it very hard to imagine how anyone could think that we don't need a new plan for downtown.

Its only alarming because you tend to beat around the bush on complex issues, ask open ended questions and make tunnel visioned responses to the answers you get.  Maybe its just learning how to properly explain a position or viewpoint through the internet but your quoted post is a great example of this.  Now let me explain.

You asked for my opinion on if we need a new downtown plan, however you provide little to no detail on why the question is asked and what a new downtown plan should achieve or how extensive what's floating around in your head actually is.

The answer you received from me, then comes from a viewpoint of what are we trying to ultimately achieve in downtown.  At the end of the day, I think everyone will universally agree that we'd like to see a vibrant walkable downtown core with a 24/7 atmosphere.  If that's the case, no offense to you but I don't think entrepreneurs like triclops i, marksjax or ronchamblin need a Dashing Dan or a lakelander to come up with a downtown plan to tell them how to properly operate their businesses or specify what specific locations they should be required to open in.  Judging from continued feedback from the private sector over the years, my own experience and revitalization efforts in other communities, public sector regulations and policies need to modified to allow innovation and creativity from the free market to take control.

With that said, if you asked if the city should develop a plan for it's properties and policies, I'd say yes, you need a citywide plan, not just downtown (since downtown isn't an island unto itself).

QuoteThe plan we have is obviously not working and even if it was working it's got to be more than ten years old by now.

What you mention is actually apart of the problem.  Several city's plans are well over 30 years now and their downtowns are now vibrant because of their willingness to stick with a vision. 

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-apr-lakelands-green-treasure-lake-mirror-park

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-elements-of-urbanism-baltimore

So what if the current plan is 10 years old?  Have you ever considered that perhaps somethings have not worked because they have never been implemented (ex. the current plan's suggestion of two-waying streets)?  Our problem is every new guy wants a new plan every 4 to 8 years instead of attempting to actually stick to one and implement what it says.  So instead of completely throwing out the current plan, why not find solutions to implement its recommendations?  By suggesting scrapping everything and starting over by getting a whole bunch of Dashing Dans in the room again to daydream is nothing more than a tragic repeat of failed policies and a joke to business owners who've already have their financial skin in the game.

QuoteAnd what has that got to do with the likely cost of a new downtown convention center?

If you followed the mayor's race, the transition team recommendations and the civic council's suggested downtown plan, you'll discover that many believe we need a revitalization plan that calls for dropping +$100 million into a convention center.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-feb-the-jacksonville-civic-councils-plans-for-downtown

Thus, I used it as an example of something that would most likely come out of a downtown re-planning process that will get less public ROI than simply modifying policies and regulations to allow small businesses to succeed.  So framed from this viewpoint and understanding our economic climate, I don't see why it would be hard to imagine someone in the planning industry believing that we don't need to repeat the failed recycled ideas of the past to bring revitalization to downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods.  Let's try something different and get out the way for change.

 It's not all that complicated.  You asked me for an example and then you gave me a good one.

Cool.  I'm glad I could better explain my view which goes against the point that this site subverts planning into a meaningless exercise.  It's pretty clear that collaborative planning has been going on for decades on just about all the topics discussed on this site, from fixed transit to downtown redevelopment.  Let's find ways to actually move forward in a manner that positively impacts the quality of life and economic health of the city instead of drawing up more sketches with crayons.

I used to be alarmed.  Now I'm exasperated.

welcome to the club

Think of the tangled web,complexity-lift out of exasperation to fascination.Study.

For instance,consider Matt Carlucci.Alvin Brown campaign supporter.
Matt's father,Senator Joe Carlucci became an ardent Brannon Chaffee booster.

Long established and representing St Johns County,Senator Joe Carlucci was faced with Redistrict area that would include Clay County.Joe's first response,as noted in the press,was "...over my dead body!"
Well,it happened and Senator Carlucci soon joined lockstep with Brannon Chaffe boosters.This was the era of Brannon Chaffee as much needed North South Arterial and Blanding Blvd. "alleviation" sales pitch.
Blanding Blvd. of course compromised by the same local government forces,the same faces!....that were promoting Brannon Chaffee and yes- clear understanding as to Beltway or Jax/Tampa.

Matt Carlucci largey holds the similar future roadway outlook.It's generational.Same with Alberta Hipps.I have seen the dynamic at work.

In fact there is a curious Brannon Chaffee connection to other area State Farm agents.
State Farm agent Larry Fuller of Orange Park was notably different and in fact made run for Clay County Commission seat based in part on BC concerns.He didn't lose by much.

Brannon Chaffee funding aspirations largely failed during the Joe Carlucci era.
Duval Delegation at times skeptical of funding,some even got it on the erroneous "alleviation" claims.
The stars would eventually allign with BC Boosters with Horne,Thrasher,King.
King close friends with one who would end up speculative owner of a chunk of the 1900acre Trust For Public Lands BC option parcel.

The players,the influences vast.And fascinating.

so now the expressway is a big State Farm insurance conspiracy?

no conspiracy.Just a piece of the puzzle for discerning observers,participants.

"Conspiracy" word has become loaded down,employed in a manner to attempt to discredit

conspiracy properly reserved for Planner & Consultant,Lake Asbury Sector Plan round one of two

yes...all planners and consultants are bad...and all part of a giant conspiracy

guess that also goes for advocacy groups, huh?

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-09-20/alan-mosley-resigns-head-fdot-northeast-florida (http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-09-20/alan-mosley-resigns-head-fdot-northeast-florida)

curiouser and curiouser !

yep...learned of this yesterday...I think it is fair to surmise that the Governor is a bit displeased with the whole back-and-forth on the beltway w/ the Mayor...and someone had to take the fall

Heard about this earlier this morning but was asked not to say anything.  There's a lot going on that the average guy is oblivious too.

Firing the district secretary isn't going to move this project forward.  It's toxic now.  Who would want to touch it?

Quote from: thelakelander on September 20, 2011, 02:57:32 PM
Heard about this earlier this morning but was asked not to say anything.  There's a lot going on that the average guy is oblivious too.

I don't think many around this site are average guys.

I have mixed feelings on Brown's stance with Scott, on the one hand I'm happy to see it just on principle, and obviously there has never been a project more worth scrapping than this one, so I welcome any additional monkey wrench that gets thrown into it. But on the other hand it's kind of like reading a court decision where the judge reaches the right decision for all the wrong reasons, I wish Brown would take stock of the long-term consequences of turning it into a highway at all, and address the real issue which is whether or not to build it at all, not just tolls. This just has no business being built.

for once we agree!

+1000

x 2000

Quote from: thelakelander on September 20, 2011, 02:57:32 PM
  There's a lot going on that the average guy is oblivious too.

That prety much describes past decades.

Quote from: north miami on September 20, 2011, 04:57:06 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 20, 2011, 02:57:32 PM
  There's a lot going on that the average guy is oblivious too.

That prety much describes past decades.

I'm often oblivious to stuff that's going on.  It's one of my defining characteristics.

Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 20, 2011, 07:38:23 PM

Quote from: north miami on September 20, 2011, 04:57:06 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 20, 2011, 02:57:32 PM
  There's a lot going on that the average guy is oblivious too.

That prety much describes past decades.

I'm often oblivious to stuff that's going on.  It's one of my defining characteristics.

aw come on now,I know you are more alert and curious than that.

More a matter of issue identification and development,exposure.  News and information.

from the JAXUSA Partnership (formerly Cornerstone) e-newsletter....nice spin!

Outer Beltway Receives City and State Support
The First Coast Outer Beltway project began about 10 years ago and quickly picked up speed with the commitment to build a high-speed interchange at I-10 and Cecil Field. Some of the original construction was developed along the way. Now the opportunity to bring the road up to its full potential means adding public and private support and providing a return on investment for those private funds. Every county in Northeast Florida has had strong support for this road for the last eight years as it is the most important road infrastructure project that we expect over the next 25 years.

The Outer Beltway has received support from both Mayor Alvin Brown and Gov. Rick Scott to move forward. The Outer Beltway is a vital project that will help meet the region's growing infrastructure needs. It will bring hundreds of millions of dollars in investment and will add nearly 1,000 construction jobs. The Outer Beltway project will also help us attract new companies and jobs to our region. The Outer Beltway will provide the needed infrastructure to serve our growing region and help us avoid congestion in the decades to come.

I'm all for public/private partnerships but who is the private entity?  Please don't tell me that's what we're calling the turnpike authority these days?  Also, what percentage of the hundreds of millions in new investment will be publicly subsidized?  Something tells me no Outer Beltway advocate wants to peel and expose the insides of that onion.

Whether you like this project or not, this doesn't sound to me like a project that is moving forward.

QuoteI'm all for public/private partnerships but who is the private entity?

It is my understanding it's a company created for and by FDOT.  Spinning off a private company solely to put public funds into it, isn't a public/private partnership... that's called a farce.

QuoteWhether you like this project or not, this doesn't sound to me like a project that is moving forward.

The fact that there are big green signs on the side of I-10 just off the Whitehouse exit ready to be put up with the words 'outer beltway' printed on them, would lead me to believe this thing is going to get built come hell or high water.

Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 21, 2011, 04:28:10 PM
Whether you like this project or not, this doesn't sound to me like a project that is moving forward.

good luck w/ that

and as to field's comments, those signs should (and likely will) say Cecil Commerce Center Parkway...note the signs they put up a few years ago said something different....and then CCCP (not Russia :) ) was bolted on

Given what has happened in the past day or two why would anyone at FDOT be willing to stake his or her career on the successful implementation of this project?  I'm sure there will be many avid supporters, but who would be willing to take the lead?  It's just too risky!

You want to slow down suburban sprawl? Just get some legislator to push through a bill forbidding exit points on the belt way. Get on or get off only at the I-10 or I-95 interchange.  ;D

Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 21, 2011, 07:02:17 PM
Given what has happened in the past day or two why would anyone at FDOT be willing to stake his or her career on the successful implementation of this project?  I'm sure there will be many avid supporters, but who would be willing to take the lead?  It's just too risky!

The Secretary of FDOT for one....and just about every politician in northeast Florida....keep in mind even the Mayor says he likes the road, just not the tolls.

Quote from: Ralph W on September 21, 2011, 08:36:21 PM
You want to slow down suburban sprawl? Just get some legislator to push through a bill forbidding exit points on the belt way. Get on or get off only at the I-10 or I-95 interchange.  ;D

Ralph W , substantive post.

Legislators Jim King was a buddy of one of the raw land investors who would usher " The Farm" to Oak Leaf.
FDOT Brannan Chaffee Federal COE and Water Management permit proceedings relied on Trust For Public Lands/Tallahassee for decidedly weak hearted dealings with The Farm.

for the longest time the concern was not so much the immediate impacts of Brannon Chaffee roadway footprint et al (handily addressed via Senate Bill 98; natural lands mitigation.....) but rather the secondary impacts ( even though mitigated,negotiated....)
Brannan Chaffee wetland impacts mitigated/98 yet we had to carefully monitor mitigation parcel choices......by rule the parcel could have been anywhere within a broad Basin system.Politically way off limits were immediate Corridor lands such as the 1900 acre Trust For Public Lands Game & Fish Commission parcel.

Ralph W what you describe would be true "limited access"...........and true limited access to "inevitable" newly vested corridor development which after all is a key reasonable and assumed driver.

Can anyone here name Florida Limited Access facility that was,by rule,oriented primarily towards core roadbed function,safeguards against corridor secondary impacts.

Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 21, 2011, 07:02:17 PM
Given what has happened in the past day or two why would anyone at FDOT be willing to stake his or her career on the successful implementation of this project?  I'm sure there will be many avid supporters, but who would be willing to take the lead?  It's just too risky!

Way too much Sunshine for some.

Everything is a wee bit different now.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 21, 2011, 04:02:50 PM
from the JAXUSA Partnership (formerly Cornerstone) e-newsletter....nice spin!

Outer Beltway Receives City and State Support
The First Coast Outer Beltway project began about 10 years ago and quickly picked up speed with the commitment to build a high-speed interchange at I-10 and Cecil Field. Some of the original construction was developed along the way. return on investment for those private funds.

help us avoid congestion in the decades to come.

Spin indeed,carefully crafted no matter how erroneous.

I miss Cornerstone......Jax Chamber/Clay Entity has also jumped in to a fox hole.

".....some of the original construction ...developed along the way....." That's a Spin Out.
The reference is to "Stand Alone" FDOT Brannon Chaffee and under separate post when I can get to the file I will share Permit Number and you can have at it.

" help".     " avoid".      "congestion"       Perfectly positioned for public interest legal challenge.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 21, 2011, 10:47:10 PM

Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 21, 2011, 07:02:17 PM
Given what has happened in the past day or two why would anyone at FDOT be willing to stake his or her career on the successful implementation of this project?  I'm sure there will be many avid supporters, but who would be willing to take the lead?  It's just too risky!

The Secretary of FDOT for one....and just about every politician in northeast Florida....keep in mind even the Mayor says he likes the road, just not the tolls.

The Secretary isn't going to make this project his own, and local politicians don't work for FDOT.  Every project needs a champion, and this project is an orphan.  Plenty of uncles but no daddy.

trust me DD....you're way off-base on this one

I just ran into Alan Mosley at Chamblins, about 30 minutes ago, while getting my daily cup of coffee.  He looked pretty sharp, said hello, shook my hand, told me to say hello to the boss and disappeared into the bookstore.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 22, 2011, 09:17:46 AM
trust me DD....you're way off-base on this one

Time will tell.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 22, 2011, 09:17:46 AM
trust me DD....you're way off-base on this one

So what do we do to fix that?

My view is that unless somebody "fixes" something, this project isn't going anywhere. 

It also appears to me that tufsu doesn't think there is anything that needs to be "fixed," so let's leave it at that.

QuoteEvery project needs a champion, and this project is an orphan.

If you don't think the Lt Governor(a Fleming Island resident) isn't a HUGE supporter of this road, then you need to start paying more attention. 

From what I have heard, there are all kinds of uncles, dads and grandfathers in the kitchen cooking the turkey getting ready for Thanksgiving dinner... and I'm not anywhere near connected as TuFSU is.

I mean there are highway signs already fronting the words 'outer beltway' just ready to be erected on I-10 for heaven's sake.

I've seen my share of half-built dams and uncompleted interchanges.  This project is dead in the water.

My guess is we'll get a half built Outer Beltway.  The construction and ultimate failure of this initial 15-mile segment will cool the talk on extending this thing into St. Johns County and north of I-10.

Anyway, does anyone know how this project became a larger priority than widening the northern half of the I-295/9A beltway between JAXPORT and the Westside?  That project would actually serve a purpose, create short term jobs and help stimulate long term warehouse, logistics, industrial and port related jobs.

Cincinnati has a subway tunnel but no subway.

So true.  We have a skyway stub to the stadium but no skyway.  There's also a Hart Bridge Expressway heading to the beach that abruptly ends as Beach Blvd.  Thinking about incomplete projects, goes anyone know how we ended up with a 20th Street Expressway (MLK Parkway) that doesn't have interchanges west of I-95?

My understanding is that the original I-95 ran via 20th Street, Haines Street, the Mathews Bridge, the Arlington Expressway, and  Southside Blvd. Before they built the current I-95, that stub would have carried traffic from US 1 to the original I-95.

When it first opened, the Fuller Warren Bridge wasn't connected to anything.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 22, 2011, 10:43:52 AM
Anyway, does anyone know how this project became a larger priority than widening the northern half of the I-295/9A beltway between JAXPORT and the Westside?  That project would actually serve a purpose, create short term jobs and help stimulate long term warehouse, logistics, industrial and port related jobs.

SR 9A (I-295) is scheduled to be widened between Heckscher and I-95 in 2014/2015.....so the 6 lanes should open about the sdame time as the Branan Field-Chafee Expressway does.

Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 22, 2011, 10:21:29 AM
It also appears to me that tufsu doesn't think there is anything that needs to be "fixed," so let's leave it at that.

hardly....I just know which battles can be won and which ones cannot.

I have spoken up on countless occasions questioning this road (often with traffic data in hand)....but leaders in Jax, Clay County, regional organizations/agencies, and FDOT see it differently.

Tufsu1, what about I-295 between I-95 and I-10?  The majority of the railyards and industrial parks are along that stretch. 

QuoteThere's also a Hart Bridge Expressway heading to the beach that abruptly ends as Beach Blvd.

That was originally supposed to link to JTB... until the GOB network reconfigured those plans.

QuoteThinking about incomplete projects, goes anyone know how we ended up with a 20th Street Expressway (MLK Parkway) that doesn't have interchanges west of I-95?

The Haines Street Expressway was built as a quick thoroughfare around town to hit 95 and the Matthews Bridge, before the Dames Point Bridge was ever discussed.  It was just a cut through to the highway without having to go through the traffic downtown.  Part of the Jacksonville Expressway's plan to drive people to the bridges without having to ever touch downtown.

When I lived off Heckshire, this was the route we used to go to/from Regency Mall.  I got my haircut on Saturdays on the corner of 8th and Main... and then mom would go get her hair cut at Regency Mall.  I would get a roll of quarters to go play in the arcade and we would eat at Mr Dusenberry's(which became European Street.. featured on the Park and King After 5 event next Friday  :) ) afterwards. 

QuoteI've seen my share of half-built dams and uncompleted interchanges.  This project is dead in the water.

I could see maybe it not being a complete loop, but it seems the wheels are prety much turning on getting the first stretch of this road built.

Same thing that happened with 9B.  Flagler wanted that portion built, and so be it.  The rest of it probably won't get built anytime soon or if at all.

QuoteAnyway, does anyone know how this project became a larger priority than widening the northern half of the I-295/9A beltway between JAXPORT and the Westside?

For a governor that is supposed to be pro JaxPORT and pro Cecil Commerce Center... that would make more sense, UNTIL you look at who benefits from the this particular portion of the beltway.  It's not suprising to know who those people voted for :)

Quote from: thelakelander on September 22, 2011, 09:24:44 AM
I just ran into Alan Mosley at Chamblins, about 30 minutes ago, while getting my daily cup of coffee.  He looked pretty sharp, said hello, shook my hand, told me to say hello to the boss and disappeared into the bookstore.

I spotted him in the Main Library today too, probably just before he headed to Chamblins. I had a double expresso in my hands and perhaps I influenced his next stop. Agreed, he did look sharp!

Quote from: thelakelander on September 22, 2011, 11:24:32 AM
Tufsu1, what about I-295 between I-95 and I-10?  The majority of the railyards and industrial parks are along that stretch. 

just a short 6-lane section from I-10 to Commonwealth and a modified interchange at Pritchard Rd.

heck, the rest didn't even make the TPO LRTP as a cost feasible project (is in the needs plan)....truth is the projected traffic isn't huge

Quotetruth is the projected traffic isn't huge

But the Outer Beltway is?  I smell fuzzy math going on again.

in comparison....yes and no....remember, one road already exists as a 4 lane expressway

I-295 - projected 2035 volumes range from 80,000 to around 100,000 vehicles per day.

BFCX - projected 2035 volumes (with tolls) range from around 35,000 to 75,000.

the key thing to look at is roadway capacity....the max. capacity of a 4 lane freeway is around 80,000 so I-295 is not way over capacity (buit like I said, 6 lanes are stil "needed").

The part I don't get is why FDOT originally proposed buiding the new expressway as a 6-lane facility from I-10 to SR 21....I think the current plan is to construct only 4 lanes (but with a wide median for future expansion).

35,000 to 75,000 anticipates that sprawl develops around the road as a result of its construction by opening virgin land up to development.  Without the highway, a significant chunk of the projected trips never happen.  One can't help but notice that if the true transportation issue is dealing with congestion on a few existing arterials, there are solutions available that don't call for spending $2 billion and permanently subsidizing another highway.  It will be interested to see how the development landscape is reconfigured once we come out of our economic rut.  National trends indicate constructing the beltway would be a fiscal and economic disaster for the public.

Quote from: fieldafm on September 22, 2011, 11:24:45 AM

QuoteThere's also a Hart Bridge Expressway heading to the beach that abruptly ends as Beach Blvd.

That was originally supposed to link to JTB... until the GOB network reconfigured those plans.

The freeway to the beaches was supposed to be via the Hart Bridge.  JTB was originally supposed to be another Southside Blvd, not a freeway.  That's why the I-95 JTB interchange is such a mess.  There wasn't supposed to be a freeway interchange at that location.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 22, 2011, 11:23:55 AM

Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 22, 2011, 10:21:29 AM
It also appears to me that tufsu doesn't think there is anything that needs to be "fixed," so let's leave it at that.

hardly....I just know which battles can be won and which ones cannot.

You can't win any battles if you don't have any money.

I grew up in Robert Moses' territory.  There isn't anyone in this game who has that kind of "talent".  Lt. Gov. Carroll can be her own worst enemy.  Scott's the same way.  The person who wanted Mosley out has shot himself in the foot.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 22, 2011, 11:49:42 AM
35,000 to 75,000 anticipates that sprawl develops around the road as a result of its construction by opening virgin land up to development. 

true...forecasts in 2025 are much lower (20,000 to 60,000)....and that still assumes some developmenmt occurs between now and then

also keep in mind that the proponents will tell you this isn't the $2 Billion project....this part only costs $300 million

At the regional council meeting last Thursday, there was supposed to be unanimous resolution in support of tolls for this project. 

But not everyone was on board.

From WJCT:

QuoteThe Northeast Florida Regional Council has thrown its support behind the Outer Beltway, the first toll board to be built on the First Coast in over 20 years. But as WJCT’s Kevin Meerschaert reports, the plan to bring back tolls to Duval County is still garnering opposition.

http://www.wjct.org/mp3/news/oct06km.mp3 (http://www.wjct.org/mp3/news/oct06km.mp3)

no money = no project

let's not overstate things dashing dan...there are 35 members (31 can vote)on the NEFRC board...I believe something like 25 were present...and only 2 voted NO on the "endorsement of tolls"....and both of those said they do like the project

Mayor brown is about to appear on 89.9FM from 9am to 10am.

count how many times he says "second to none" and "public private partnership"

Sounds like the Koch brothers are getting their GP pipeline in some form.

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 09, 2011, 10:37:59 PM
let's not overstate things dashing dan...there are 35 members (31 can vote)on the NEFRC board...I believe something like 25 were present...and only 2 voted NO on the "endorsement of tolls"....and both of those said they do like the project

The draft resolution included the word "unanimous."  It didn't turn out that way.

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 09, 2011, 10:37:59 PM
let's not overstate things dashing dan...there are 35 members (31 can vote)on the NEFRC board...I believe something like 25 were present...and only 2 voted NO on the "endorsement of tolls"....and both of those said they do like the project

NEFRC of course composed of local government representatives;the local governments "joined at the hip" with ardent development boosters.
When pressed Beltway Boosters refer to Public 'Sector Plan' process and other growth management elements under the "Public" banner.

Erroneous traffic alleviation images flourish.Former MPO Head Calvin Burney's euphoric statement ( Florida Times Union 5-5-1998 B.2) "The Jacksonville Metropolitan Planning Organization........estimates nearly 30,000 vehicles a day will travel the road as soon as it opens" was a crowning achievement in promotion of "alternate" and "alleviation" measures for Blanding Blvd.
In fact,30,000 Average Daily Traffic (ADT) would not be an immediate effect,but rather after a period of modeled time,much of the ADT the result of new development the corridor would generate.
Although FTU Mike Clark encountered vague runaround with Burney and agreed the matter did merit further investigation the episode never did lodge with the Reader public.

The legally binding "NO BUILD " public option opportunity period passed quietly,and likely without proper public notice.

Throughout that era,while serving on a Statewide Conservation and Growth Management organization I heard a message loud and clear: To profile to the public Regional Council individuals by name and illuminate Development ties ( perhaps even via official Record Book & Page....... Horrors!) was considered rude and out of the mainstream.

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 02, 2011, 09:14:44 AM
count how many times he says "second to none" and "public private partnership"

A little early for a drinking game, doncha think? :D

I was surprised and I think the Mayor was too that people were pushing on the pipeline.  He addressed people not being happy with the city employees he removed by saying I'm the Mayor so it's up to me.  I still don't like the Bill Killingsworth firing but I like how strong the Mayor seems compared to our prior Mayor.

Maybe a moderator should split the radio comments from this thread.

per Tufsu post:

I-295 - projected 2035 volumes

BFCX - projected 2035 volumes

North Miami lodges the following;

PROJECTIONS.  By whom,and under what assumptions.....?
N.M.

they are projections from the regional trravel demand model...built by the tPO and used by planning agencies all over the region...includes BEBR population projections with adopted local comprehensive plan future land uses

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 22, 2011, 12:20:23 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 22, 2011, 11:49:42 AM
35,000 to 75,000 anticipates that sprawl develops around the road as a result of its construction by opening virgin land up to development. 

true...forecasts in 2025 are much lower (20,000 to 60,000)....and that still assumes some developmenmt occurs between now and then

also keep in mind that the proponents will tell you this isn't the $2 Billion project....this part only costs $300 million

What they won't tell you is $300 million equals...

25 miles of newly constructed 2-lane roadways with 5' sidewalks, and curb & gutter...or

24 miles of expanding existing 4-lane roads to 6-lanes with 5' sidewalks, and curb & gutter...or

30 miles of newly constructed heritage streetcar lines....or

10 miles of skyway extensions....or

121 miles of milling and resurfacing existing 4-lane streets with 5' sidewalks, curb & gutter.....or

896 miles of newly constructed 12' wide multiuse paths throughout the region....or

1,334 miles of newly constructed 6' wide sidewalks....or

100 extra pedestrian/bike bridges over our complex network of wide arterial roadways that isolated multimodal connectivity between adjacent neighborhoods...

^Like

and I'm sure they don't want us to know this! 

Quote from: thelakelander on November 03, 2011, 09:00:10 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 22, 2011, 12:20:23 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 22, 2011, 11:49:42 AM
35,000 to 75,000 anticipates that sprawl develops around the road as a result of its construction by opening virgin land up to development. 

true...forecasts in 2025 are much lower (20,000 to 60,000)....and that still assumes some developmenmt occurs between now and then

also keep in mind that the proponents will tell you this isn't the $2 Billion project....this part only costs $300 million

What they won't tell you is $300 million equals...

25 miles of newly constructed 2-lane roadways with 5' sidewalks, and curb & gutter...or

24 miles of expanding existing 4-lane roads to 6-lanes with 5' sidewalks, and curb & gutter...or

30 miles of newly constructed heritage streetcar lines....or

10 miles of skyway extensions....or

121 miles of milling and resurfacing existing 4-lane streets with 5' sidewalks, curb & gutter.....or

896 miles of newly constructed 12' wide multiuse paths throughout the region....or

1,334 miles of newly constructed 6' wide sidewalks....or

100 extra pedestrian/bike bridges over our complex network of wide arterial roadways that isolated multimodal connectivity between adjacent neighborhoods...

For any given amount of capacity, road construction is the most costly option.  The trouble with the other options is that capacity isn't the only factor that needs to be considered.  If it's a transit option you have to budget for annual operating expenses.  For all options you have to get people to use the capacity once it becomes available.   That's why development patterns are so important.

You also have to budget for roadway maintenance which costs significantly more than transit O&M. That's something else most fail to connect to the discussion.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 03, 2011, 12:21:47 PM
You also have to budget for roadway maintenance which costs significantly more than transit O&M.

not quite true...the government (or publicly funded) maintenance costs for roads are cheaper than for most transit systems...and generally get better usage.

the part of the equation that's missing is that with transit, government pays much of the fuel and insurance costs (with some recoup in fares)....with roads, users (drivers) pay most of those costs.