Jacksonville mayor comes out against new toll road

[thelakelander]

Yes.  It's quite frustrating to see this boondoggle have more lives than a cat.  Any other infrastructure project would have died years ago.

[Dashing Dan]

I'm just saying...

There are plenty of people out there - engineers, planners, and politicians - who believe that building this road would demonstrate good planning.  I can't think of any way to change their minds, so maybe this back and forth stuff is the best that we can hope for.  As long as its supporters are arguing among themselves about how to pay for it, this project ain't going anywhere.

[thelakelander]

I can't think of any way to change their minds, so maybe this back and forth stuff is the best that we can hope for

Good point.  The amount of public dialogue going on now typically hasn't happened with projects like this.

As long as its supporters are arguing among themselves about how to pay for it, this project ain't going anywhere.

I believe they'll build this 15-mile stretch as a toll road.  However, years down the road, it will serve as an "I told you so" for those who continue to mention that the tolls won't pay for themselves and that Jacksonville won't benefit from this subsidy to Clay County.

[Dashing Dan]

Unfortunately we already have a full plate of "I told you so" projects around here.

[ChriswUfGator]

Unfortunately we already have a full plate of "I told you so" projects around here.

+1

Everything we've done for the last several decades has turned into an "I told you so" deal, do we really need 1 more?

[thelakelander]

True, but how do you stop it?  I'm all ears.

[cline]

I think it would help if our elected officials would stop allowing projects to move forward based on an small number of wealthy private interests (landowners, developers) and instead started working towards what was best for the community as a whole.  This project is the embodiment of the efforts of a few elites who stand to gain monetarily- nothing more.  That's the reason it has not and will not die.

[ChriswUfGator]

True, but how do you stop it?  I'm all ears.

Sometimes you are. The convention center is a prime "Told you so" project waiting to happen. So's this toll road.

Instead of wasting money on this kind of crap, just stop. Who says every dime collected has to be spent at all, let alone on stuff like this? Instead of trying to spur suburban devlopment, spur urban development. Start selling off the city-owned properties in and around downtown for $1 each to qualified buyers with reverter clauses that they're developed within 5-10 years or else the vacant land reverts back to the city. Ditto with Lavilla, brooklyn, etc. Get rid of paid parking, open the city garages for free. Start grant programs for opening businesses in the core. Fund the creation of the streetcar system ASAP instead of maybe in 10-15 years. Eliminate arcane and asinine zoning restrictions. I have covered all of this in 4 years' worth of posts on your site, it's a lot to type in one summary, but I've covered all the main points.

[ChriswUfGator]

I think it would help if our elected officials would stop allowing projects to move forward based on an small number of wealthy private interests (landowners, developers) and instead started working towards what was best for the community as a whole.  This project is the embodiment of the efforts of a few elites who stand to gain monetarily- nothing more.  That's the reason it has not and will not die.

+1

[Dashing Dan]

Even on this website there are a lot of posts that I would consider to be anti-planning.  That's probably because the planning process around here has been subverted on behalf of a handful of self-proclaimed leaders. 

If you look at Riverside Avondale and how it got to be a great neighborhood, that's a textbook case for how planning is supposed to work. 

If you look at downtown, then that's an example of how planning around here has been subverted.

[thelakelander]

True, but how do you stop it?  I'm all ears.

Sometimes you are.

I'm all ears 100% of the time.  However, that doesn't mean I'll always agree with a certain position.  You'll be hard pressed to find one example of where I've simply refused to listen or stop anyone from making their point.

Instead of wasting money on this kind of crap, just stop. Who says every dime collected has to be spent at all, let alone on stuff like this? Instead of trying to spur suburban devlopment, spur urban development. Start selling off the city-owned properties in and around downtown for $1 each to qualified buyers with reverter clauses that they're developed within 5-10 years or else the vacant land reverts back to the city. Ditto with Lavilla, brooklyn, etc. Get rid of paid parking, open the city garages for free. Start grant programs for opening businesses in the core. Fund the creation of the streetcar system ASAP instead of maybe in 10-15 years. Eliminate arcane and asinine zoning restrictions. I have covered all of this in 4 years' worth of posts on your site, it's a lot to type in one summary, but I've covered all the main points.

Not saying these things shouldn't be done but realistically speaking, they won't before this particular project breaks ground.  So how do we stop this particular project from breaking ground in a few months?

[thelakelander]

Even on this website there are a lot of posts that I would consider to be anti-planning.  That's probably because the planning process around here has been subverted on behalf of a handful of self-proclaimed leaders. 

If you look at Riverside Avondale and how it got to be a great neighborhood, that's a textbook case for how planning is supposed to work. 

If you look at downtown, then that's an example of how planning around here has been subverted.

Care to further explain?

[Dashing Dan]

Planning is a long term collaborative process that involves a wide range of actively involved and knowledgeable stakeholders.  Riverside Avondale is the result of such a process. 

If you have a specific outcome in mind before you begin the planning process, then planning is subverted into a meaningless exercise.

[thelakelander]

I agree. Care to mention a specific example?

[Dashing Dan]

You tell me:

Do we need a new plan for downtown, or do we have too many downtown plans already?