Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?

[finehoe]

But spare me the heart congestion reason.  People aren't obese because their aren't enough bridges with ped/bike paths. 

► Vehicle travel and obesity show high correlation (R2=98.44%) in the United States.
► This correlation reflects their nationwide evolution in recent decades.
► Policies to reduce vehicle travel may have the added benefit of obesity reduction.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967070X11000515

[simms3]

Best conclusion post so far.

One point I'd like to make is regarding the bike/ped component.  Politics is always personal  (or at least it typically should be).  I'll never ride my bike over the Full Warren. 

really?

what if it is an amazing regional attraction, which is entirely possible?  For example, I don't live on the westside but I've rode the Baldwin trail.

I don't live on the Westside either, and I too have enjoyed the Baldwin Trail.  I'm all about the Rails to Trails, and riding bikes through the natural areas.  So, for the Baldwin Trail, it is personal, and not necessarily geographical.  The Fuller Warren Bike/Ped Bridge Widening isn't for me.  If it could be shown that the money spent would provide a new transportation mode that resulted in an improved economy/revunue stream/funding/etc. that benefited the area/City/region, than YES, I'm all about it. I just don't see it happening!

Well evidence is merely anecdotal, but no offense, if all Jax can offer is a typical suburban environment surrounded by "family friendly" exurbs, then it has no chance of growing a strong economy or competing in an ever changing landscape with ever changing demographics and preferences.

While to your professional eyes it may seem like a ped/bike path across a bridge in Jax, such as the Fuller Warren (which already seems to have the space, it probably just needs markers and dividers...a minimal "investment"/cost), may seem a waste of money, it's those little pieces that count just as much as those bigger pieces out in the burbs that add up together to make Jacksonville a more attractive place for more types of people who have different preferences for lifestyle, different preferences for living options, and different preferences for getting around/amenities.

Companies tend to go to cities that can accommodate a wide range of people.  A city that has a fairly homogeneous (politically, racially, and in age/household size) population, or one that is fairly divided to no benefit (aka wealthy white republicans in the burbs and a large poor area, perhaps predominantly minority, in the inner city) is not one that is attractive at all to most people or most companies.

While cities like DC, Boston, NYC, San Francisco, and Austin TX may not float your boat, they are doing something right.  Despite their high taxes and high costs of living, they are cities that don't need to offer incentives to companies to get them to relocate, expand, or stay in their bounds.  Some companies end up leaving, especially as cities/states such as FL and TX get on their knees and indicate willingness to service the nether regions of companies indicating they are "fed" up with the high costs of these other coastal markets, but most companies set up shop in these high cost cities because they know that the best and brightest and most creative minds and most diverse demographics wish to be in these cities, not Jacksonville.

So the more of these little projects in the urban core the City of Jax can do to make Jax a more broadly appealing place, the better it will be for all.  And yes, it will be impossible to measure a return on investment for this teeny tiny project, just like believe it or not, it truly is impossible to measure all costs (foreseen/budgeted for and unforeseen/not budgeted for) and the almighty "return on cost"/"return on investment" with the larger infrastructure projects out in the suburbs.

So don't be so narrow minded.  Don't be so idiotic.  And don't even make your demands, because you sound silly when you do.  Don't try to "sound reasonable" with your platitudes that you bike the Baldwin Trail or that you're "all for it if...".  Just understand the reality, or put up and shut up and enjoy what technically is the most subsidized lifestyle (by MY generation if you will) in the history of humanity.  And be grateful that you enjoy YOUR situation, and hope that others can do the same, whatever their desired situation may be.

[simms3]

If the ridership numbers are there in 5 yeats, then great!  I just don't see it happening, even with a bike share program.  I just don't consider the bicycle to be a serious mode of transportation ever.  It's too unsafe (sure call me scared), and I'd rather ride a bike along a dedicated path leisurely.  The suburban way

We're not talking about transit or widening a roadway for extra auto capacity. I don't ride bikes on a daily basis either but given our pedestrian and cycling death rates, I can at least see the need to invest in a dedicated pedestrian and bicycle network throughout town. Anyway, what type of ridership numbers do you believe are needed to justify providing pedestrian and bicycle facilities in the middle of a city Jacksonville's size?

Solid question.  I don't know?  50-100 bikes/peds per day?  What would be tragic is if it were 5 peds/bikes per day.

But you'll never get those numbers without the investment. So it's a chicken and egg thing. But it's a worthwhile goal to pursue, for everyone. More people cycling can lead to less traffic congestion. It also can lead to less heart congestion.

Sure, I get that.  I'm all about smart infrastructure spending when the purpose and need can be shown to benefit as many citizens as possible.  FCX included.

But spare me the heart congestion reason.  People aren't obese because their aren't enough bridges with ped/bike paths. 

Spare me your platitudes.

[Adam White]

But spare me the heart congestion reason.  People aren't obese because their aren't enough bridges with ped/bike paths. 

You're right - people aren't obese because there aren't enough bridges with ped/bike paths. But maybe a city with more cycling (or pedestrian) infrastructure would encourage more people to cycle, run or walk. And that might help combat obesity.

[southsider1015]

But spare me the heart congestion reason.  People aren't obese because their aren't enough bridges with ped/bike paths. 

► Vehicle travel and obesity show high correlation (R2=98.44%) in the United States.
► This correlation reflects their nationwide evolution in recent decades.
► Policies to reduce vehicle travel may have the added benefit of obesity reduction.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967070X11000515

Haha.  Strong correlation, right.  I respect a nice strech of statistics, when comes to obesity, Americans have too many excuse on why we're fat.

[southsider1015]

Best conclusion post so far.

One point I'd like to make is regarding the bike/ped component.  Politics is always personal  (or at least it typically should be).  I'll never ride my bike over the Full Warren. 

really?

what if it is an amazing regional attraction, which is entirely possible?  For example, I don't live on the westside but I've rode the Baldwin trail.

I don't live on the Westside either, and I too have enjoyed the Baldwin Trail.  I'm all about the Rails to Trails, and riding bikes through the natural areas.  So, for the Baldwin Trail, it is personal, and not necessarily geographical.  The Fuller Warren Bike/Ped Bridge Widening isn't for me.  If it could be shown that the money spent would provide a new transportation mode that resulted in an improved economy/revunue stream/funding/etc. that benefited the area/City/region, than YES, I'm all about it. I just don't see it happening!

Well evidence is merely anecdotal, but no offense, if all Jax can offer is a typical suburban environment surrounded by "family friendly" exurbs, then it has no chance of growing a strong economy or competing in an ever changing landscape with ever changing demographics and preferences.

While to your professional eyes it may seem like a ped/bike path across a bridge in Jax, such as the Fuller Warren (which already seems to have the space, it probably just needs markers and dividers...a minimal "investment"/cost), may seem a waste of money, it's those little pieces that count just as much as those bigger pieces out in the burbs that add up together to make Jacksonville a more attractive place for more types of people who have different preferences for lifestyle, different preferences for living options, and different preferences for getting around/amenities.

Companies tend to go to cities that can accommodate a wide range of people.  A city that has a fairly homogeneous (politically, racially, and in age/household size) population, or one that is fairly divided to no benefit (aka wealthy white republicans in the burbs and a large poor area, perhaps predominantly minority, in the inner city) is not one that is attractive at all to most people or most companies.

While cities like DC, Boston, NYC, San Francisco, and Austin TX may not float your boat, they are doing something right.  Despite their high taxes and high costs of living, they are cities that don't need to offer incentives to companies to get them to relocate, expand, or stay in their bounds.  Some companies end up leaving, especially as cities/states such as FL and TX get on their knees and indicate willingness to service the nether regions of companies indicating they are "fed" up with the high costs of these other coastal markets, but most companies set up shop in these high cost cities because they know that the best and brightest and most creative minds and most diverse demographics wish to be in these cities, not Jacksonville.

So the more of these little projects in the urban core the City of Jax can do to make Jax a more broadly appealing place, the better it will be for all.  And yes, it will be impossible to measure a return on investment for this teeny tiny project, just like believe it or not, it truly is impossible to measure all costs (foreseen/budgeted for and unforeseen/not budgeted for) and the almighty "return on cost"/"return on investment" with the larger infrastructure projects out in the suburbs.

So don't be so narrow minded.  Don't be so idiotic.  And don't even make your demands, because you sound silly when you do.  Don't try to "sound reasonable" with your platitudes that you bike the Baldwin Trail or that you're "all for it if...".  Just understand the reality, or put up and shut up and enjoy what technically is the most subsidized lifestyle (by MY generation if you will) in the history of humanity.  And be grateful that you enjoy YOUR situation, and hope that others can do the same, whatever their desired situation may be.

It's like you got more angrier as you wrote your post.  Relax, I'm disagreeing with the investment, that's all.  I'm not all up in arms about it, and I've seen bigger wasteful spending, that's for sure.

What demands have I made again?  I'm merely adding my opinion, and no one seems like it since I'm idiotic, narrow minded, and silly.

It's like a bunch of you all sit around your keyboards and high five each other for having the same opinions.  I can't believe I'm engaging some of you, because you can't seem to respect an opposing opinion because I'm too ignorant of this "truth".

[thelakelander]

One thing I really do like about Nocatee is that it has been planned from the start to be multimodal friendly. The streets have sidewalks and a pretty decent network of bike facilities and shared use paths.  As the development grows, these will become built in amenities that will help it age with time.

[simms3]

Let me just provide a snippet of your posts.

I'm active in my community when I'm not working 50+ hours a week.  And of course, I do vote.  And sure, you can call it fleeing, "scared" if you must, but in reality, it's all about choices.  I'm pretty sure I'm not turning Jacksonville around myself, or else I'd run for mayor. 

Several things going on here:

1) Your first post is basically saying you're not really all that active in your community because you work 50 hours a week.  It's like saying, "I LOVE to sail, I just never have time."  You make time if it's what you love to do.  I want to work out, but I just don't have the time.  Yea, that excuse never flies, and it's the same, conceptually, as yours.  You have time to post on this website!

2) "I can't be mayor, so my efforts to change this city don't matter."  That's a pretty bad attitude.  Even a Facebook post every now and then, sharing an important news article or opinion on something can start a dialogue and pull people in.  Posting on this website can do the same, as you have done.  Every little effort collectively makes way more of a difference than any single one person can make, including the mayor.  But you knew that...

3) 50 hours is nothing.  I'm not sure if I've had a workload that light since I've been out of college and I'm getting up there, not too far from 30 years old.  My boss, a VP around 50 years old with 4 kids, probably averages 60-70.  Count that particular blessing, it's why you live in Jax, not the NE or the W Coast.  You should have *Plenty* of time to do other things you feel a duty to do, or things you like to do.

One point I'd like to make is regarding the bike/ped component.  Politics is always personal  (or at least it typically should be).  I'll never ride my bike over the Full Warren.  So this type investment for RAM and the other powers that be isn't worth it, IMHO.  So, when the so-called Urbanites condemn suburbia, it would be nice to hear one admit that's in THEIR best interest.  That type of understanding is sorely missed here, and that I doubt we'll see Urbanites admit.

1) That's a fairly conservative/Republican mentality.  Sure, republicans give more to charity than Democrats.  Charities of their choosing, of course, ranging from the Red Cross to non-profits that try to block gay marriage and give shock treatment to gay teens.  Full array, good and bad.  But Democrats, in general, are far more altruistic with politics, and see the big picture that Republicans can't seem to see.

So, I disagree that politics is personal.  It bugs me here in San Francisco when some very far left groups get "personal" with their motives, and end results include atrociously expensive housing (they technically work against their own interests).  Politics should not be personal.  People need to be informed and attempt to see a bigger picture.  We are all part of humanity.  Jacksonvillians should remind themselves that an appropriate mixture of healthy suburbs AND a healthy downtown/urban core is in EVERYONE's best interest, if they wish to see their region prosper, and perhaps their home values appreciate accordingly.  Only attracting solid middle class republicans who oppose quality of life expenditures and any sort of tax increases are really only serving themselves, and they are making a city inhospitable for their children and they are making the city so unattractive to outside investment that they'll never see an appropriate return on what could be an investment in their home.

2) I believe this site makes it pretty damn clear that it advocates for projects and budget items that are in the urban core's best interest.  There is no lack of transparency there.  The general attitude in town is pretty hypocritical.  It's "natural" to spend money on suburban infrastructure, give incentives to companies that will locate way out in some greenfield (and require additional infrastructure using an inefficient means of sources, etc), and there's never any comment about it.  But when money is spent downtown, there's usually a huge hoopla by people like you that almost want to be "thanked" for your payment of taxes, basically for maintaining what we already have.

It's quite worse than the pot calling the kettle black.  And sadly, you can't even see that.

Who cares if "more people live in Durbin Crossing" than downtown Jax.  Durbin Crossing will be a shithole generic community facing awful traffic in 10-20 years without a home price appreciation safety net built into better growth control management and a strong urban core that anchors the region.  I guarantee it.  People paying CFDs will be underwater from a tax basis perspective if they don't wake up and see the bigger picture.  If this were a metro of 5-10 million people with a roaring economy and no more space to build, I'd say expand the highways out to burbs, build some rail lines out to burbs, and build build build wherever you can without killing the environment.  This is Jacksonville, where Riverside is less dense than the wealthiest suburban communities in Silicon Valley.  There is hardly yet a need to spend all this money to focus growth in some pine forests 20-30 miles away.  And it's a shame.

If the ridership numbers are there in 5 yeats, then great!  I just don't see it happening, even with a bike share program.  I just don't consider the bicycle to be a serious mode of transportation ever.  It's too unsafe (sure call me scared), and I'd rather ride a bike along a dedicated path leisurely.  The suburban way

Ok, your opinion.  But your opinion times 70% of the voters is what is going to hold it back for that 30% that is just coming into being.  This is the selfishness of generations older than Gen X.  And sadly, even Millennials/Gen X'ers in Jax share a lot of commonalities with Baby Boomers (judging by the amount of married 25 year old republicans with kids in Jax, that I know of, personally, it's pretty unbelievably odd when you compare to other cities).  Something is in the water.

How the heck do you honestly expect your children to pay for their own children and then pay for you in old age when your MEMEMEMEME "My Opinion My Vote" mentality is just killing their future?  On a macro level, this happened with Fed policy, and there's a whole segment of young adults who exited college between 2008 and 2011 that will always have a grudge for what their parents' generation did, which has set them back an unprecedented amount compared to the 2-3 generations ahead of them.

A tighter, denser urban core that uses existing infrastructure is what more and more people want, and it will be far more cost effective and have so many benefits in the future.  So YOU don't want it.  But you're willing to let existing infrastructure rot and pay for additional infrastructure for inefficient land use patterns, because that is what YOU want.  Can we find a balance?  Can we attempt to do both?

You'll make the urban core SOOOO inhospitable that NOOOO company will ever think twice about moving downtown and at best you'll get a few back office operations on the SS after you suck corporate cock and shell out a fortune in incentives (because honestly, what company is dying to come to Jacksonville of their own volition?).  You'll have hardly any creative class or young professionals (and therefore no cultural enrichment whatsoever...something almost already extinct in Jacksonville), and hardly any prospects, locally, for your children.

Rather dull way to think, in my opinion.

I don't live on the Westside either, and I too have enjoyed the Baldwin Trail.  I'm all about the Rails to Trails, and riding bikes through the natural areas.  So, for the Baldwin Trail, it is personal, and not necessarily geographical.  The Fuller Warren Bike/Ped Bridge Widening isn't for me.  If it could be shown that the money spent would provide a new transportation mode that resulted in an improved economy/revunue stream/funding/etc. that benefited the area/City/region, than YES, I'm all about it. I just don't see it happening!

One of your demands, laid out.  Should we demand the same from every Woodpecker Trail Drive or Deer Trace Run that needs to get built, feeding into some brand new black top arterial in the middle of nowhere, with fire stations and police stations at minimum 2-3 miles from the nearest house by road, should we demand the economic impact of that, too?  With a super in depth study, you might not like what you see.  Also, common sense should preclude a study, in my opinion.  Connecting two sides of the river, two of the densest neighborhoods in the city, hospitals, schools (think how many kids in San Marco go to RPDS, and with a safe bike path could get daily exercise and bike to school![/i][/u]), etc is a way better economic benefit than the next Marshy Deer Frolick Meadows Trail Run Trace that gets built in a community named [Rodent] + [Verb] + [1-syllable uncommonly used word].

Sure, I get that.  I'm all about smart infrastructure spending when the purpose and need can be shown to benefit as many citizens as possible.  FCX included.

But spare me the heart congestion reason.  People aren't obese because their aren't enough bridges with ped/bike paths. 

That's right, there is never any one cause.  But a suburban lifestyle promotes a sedentary lifestyle for many, if not most people who live in such areas.  Enough studies out there show enough correlations whereby we know it's not a random musing.  I'm curious to know what you look like.  Please don't take offense, but I picture you as kind of overweight.  I don't picture you hitting the gym in your busy 50 hour work weeks, and I do picture you driving, A LOT, and spending a lot of time around the house.  Compared to the average Manhattanite or San Franciscan, you might feel uncomfortable about your looks if this is the case.  So, about those studies...

What if you lived in a walk-up on the 4th or 5th floor (stairs multiple times a day...slow elevator for moving in or ADA), walked to work and the grocery?  Even with no gym commitment, you are bound to be far healthier and in shape than someone who drives everywhere.  And there's no jogging commitment or gym commitment involved.  You could probably even smoke a few cigs and survive!  Now what if you had this in a neighborhood with low crime and decent schools, and mixed-income housing so your children could settle down near you?

Can we strive for that?!?  Other cities have paved the way...and not just old cities like Boston, but new cities like Seattle and Denver, and now a few Southern cities like Charlotte and Austin are doing a pretty good job - and they still have sprawlicious suburbs, but they also invest in a healthy core.

Haha.  Strong correlation, right.  I respect a nice strech of statistics, when comes to obesity, Americans have too many excuse on why we're fat.

Sure, pick and choose the studies and sources you wish to listen to based on whether or not the end results line up with your opinion.

No offense, but the common theme of your posts is MEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEME.  PICKANDCHOOSEPICKANDCHOOSEPICKANDCHOOSE.  TRYTOHAVEITBOTHWAYS.



A million of you [on one side] and 5,000 others (all posters on this website) [on the other side] is the ratio that is making Jacksonville suck more and more each year.

Let me ask you a question.  If Jacksonville were in a state with a state income tax and a colder climate where it snowed each winter, where do you think Jax would be?  Where it is now?  Would it even exist?  Minneapolis has been kicking ass, as has Boston.  So it's possible to overcome such obstacles.  So I ask again, what is the reason for Jax's being?  In my opinion, it rests *entirely* on being in a no-state-income-tax state and with a warm weather climate on a beach.  And even then it's not growing like any of the 3 other metros, or SW FL!  Keep Jax leadership and general mentality of the populace, and transport the place elsewhere, and see what it does.

I think that's your proof in the pudding that YOUR way of thinking and those of your million republican suburban neighbors is not what is doing the city any favors, though it does provide some immediate short term gains for YOUR personal bank accounts (no state taxes, low property taxes).  Is that selfish?


PS: Yes, you touched a nerve.  And yes, I think you should re-evaluate your stances.  Try not to think about things through the lens of WWJD ("What Would Jacksonville Do"), but rather what almost any other city do.

PPS:  I wasn't trying to win your heart or any others with this reply.  And I already know I'm a douche.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

tl;dr

I'm getting up there, not too far from 30 years old.  [Rodent] + [Verb] + [1-syllable uncommonly used word].  I'm a douche.

[Apache]

tl;dr

I'm getting up there, not too far from 30 years old.  [Rodent] + [Verb] + [1-syllable uncommonly used word].  I'm a douche.

Ha. Funny.  You should have added into your summary the bit where's Simms calls the guy a lard ass. I got a belly laugh out of that particular paragraph.

[southsider1015]

tl; but I did read.

Feel better? You're all over the map, but again, great job for spending an hour typing that up.

I'll tell ya what...I'll reevaluate my stances just for you, since you seem to get the whole picture, and I'm just selfish.

But I'll enjoy riding my bike in Nocatee, and you can ride yours on the Fuller Warren.  Enjoy

[thelakelander]

^Great. Judging from the surrounding environment, it creating direct connectivity with both riverwalks and several other projects across the country that connect two sides of cities separated by large bodies of water, the FWB path should be just fine...


US 17/Cooper River Path - Charleston, SC (photo from Greenway.org)


I-95/I-495 Woodrow Wilson Bridge - Alexandria, VA (http://bubikes.bostonbiker.org/files/2009/06/bridgebikers.jpg)


I-676 Ben Franklin Bridge - Philadelphia, PA (http://wikimapia.org/56736/Ben-Franklin-Bridge)

If fact, I'd argue, it will be quite the attraction....especially when city does fireworks shows over the river. I anticipate FDOT getting a lot of good press when it opens!

[I-10east]

Pieology, a build-your-own-pizza restaurant will open it's first North Florida location at the NTC.

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/11/12/build-your-own-pizza-restaurant-to-open-first.html

http://www.pieology.com/

[bigcraiginjax]

I've heard reports that the Dunkin opened today and Pieology opens tonight.  Nocatee also announced Starbucks and Tijuana Flats opening next year.

[CCMjax]

Unfortunately, they have a gigantic surface parking lot right in the middle of all that when they should have made that a public square like so many of the developments in the Carolinas and elsewhere are doing, with the parking behind the buildings.  If you haven't been there, it feels like a giant strip center just like everywhere else, not the small town main street feel I think everyone originally thought they were going to do.  Unless they make some major changes I don't think it is going to pan out as anything like what they have been trying to sell it as.