What are the Current Views on Jville's Gay Community from First Baptist?

[Cheshire Cat]

Stephen, can you tell me if the outreach efforts being made by the church include in any way a potential change in attitude about the gay members of our community and their rights?  I know Pastor Brunson was very vocal in his position against the GLBT community and heavily lobbied against that bill at city hall.  He feared the GLBT using the churches facilities etc. and them being unable to turn them away.  I am just wondering how sincere their desire is to include all of our citizens when embracing our downtown?  Also, what is their view on the bars and lounges?  No snark intended here.  Just asking where they stand today on these issues.

[Cheshire Cat]

That's a thought and something to consider.  As a non church member, what is your view on the issue?

[Cheshire Cat]

That's a thought and something to consider.  As a non church member, what is your view on the issue?

I consider it too complex to have a view, to be honest. Especially as you might have some insight into my personal life perhaps you can  understand why.

But aside from how people deal with complex issues, I dont think it has a bearing on how landowners and large institutions should work together downtown.

I can tell you from experience that there isnt any of the "Walk the Plank" rhetoric coming from FBC these days.  They arent asking anyone to be 'removed' from downtown.  Whether they are gay, or straight, or homeless, or poor, or wealthy, or black, or white.

These days thats coming from the atheists like Chamblin and the alleged community spirited group of ethnic and class cleansers who actually destroyed downtown.

I would agree it is a very complex issue and having known you now for over a decade, I know how the issue impacts you personally.  I don't completely agree with the idea that a landlords position on some sizable issues should not impact how they are integrated into downtown.  I know there are some perhaps many who are not going to embrace the church unless it embraces them.   I do think their views about downtown and the establishments like bars, lounges and restaurants serving liquor or that have a clients that are of the GLBT community should be understood.  On a larger scale if they are serious about embracing downtown, we need to at least hope that they are ready to embrace all the people of Jacksonville as downtown is representative in many ways of our city. 

[Cheshire Cat]

Well I certainly do not agree with the world view offered by companies like Merril Lynch and some of the less established,  shady investment firms in the downtown.  And I certainly do not agree with the philosophy which led the JEA to pursue coal fire plants that have led to so much sickness and death in this city.  But they are still members of downtown even if they do not embrace the opinions and lifestyles of everyone else either.

The thing that makes us Americans is our genius in learning how to get along civically with people that we vitally disagree with personally or philosophically, and allow the marketplace of ideas sort it out.

Overall, I would agree with that and hope that the church agrees with that as well.

[ben says]

That's a thought and something to consider.  As a non church member, what is your view on the issue?

I consider it too complex to have a view, to be honest. Especially as you might have some insight into my personal life perhaps you can  understand why.

But aside from how people deal with complex issues, I dont think it has a bearing on how landowners and large institutions should work together downtown.

I can tell you from experience that there isnt any of the "Walk the Plank" rhetoric coming from FBC these days.  They arent asking anyone to be 'removed' from downtown.  Whether they are gay, or straight, or homeless, or poor, or wealthy, or black, or white.

These days thats coming from the atheists like Chamblin and the alleged community spirited group of ethnic and class cleansers who actually destroyed downtown.

I call BS.

It's very simple. If First Baptist has a positive view, then say so. If it's the opposite, say that too.

If FB is making the issues "too complex," then shame on them for muddling a simple issue.

As for the personal barbs at Ron, I find them pretty uncalled for, as he's done more for downtown as 99% of the people on this forum.

[Cheshire Cat]

Off topic but, there have been many glowing articles on Metrojacksonville about Ron's bookstore and how it has helped save historic structures as well as creating some needed residential.  He may be a curmudgeon but he has done many good things from opening his bookstore to offering it as a meeting place and more.  Like in all things some personalities clash.  lol

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-may-inside-downtowns-newest-bookstore-chamblins-uptown

Considering the building housing Chamblin's was mostly vacant for the past two decades, this is a shining example of what creative urban pioneers can do with smaller older structures if they are allowed to survive our city's love affair with the wrecking ball.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-may-downtown-residential-project-underway

[Cheshire Cat]

LOL Stephen, so it really is a bit more than just a bookstore right?  I hope others with small business ventures will follow his lead in the area of business but perhaps not embrace all of his rhetoric.  lol

[Jimmy]

I'm not sure where this conversation began - or how.  But what we know for sure is that less than 2 years ago FBC's leadership was so against LGBT rights in Jacksonville that their Senior Pastor participated in a letter campaign with other fundamentalist churches to oppose the HRO amendment.  We know that Pastor Brunson personally appeared in Council chambers to denounce the HRO and ask the Councilmembers to defeat it. 

And we know that soon after the ultimate defeat in August 2012 that the 10 Councilmembers voting against the measure were thanked, honored, and recognized from the pulpit of the church.

I understand FBC continues to support a so-called "ex-gay" ministry that is antithetical to the very lives of LGBT people in Jacksonville.  And I further understand that earlier this year they had a very offensive seminar as part of their Jacksonville Pastors' Conference that was as anti-gay as can be imagined.  The seminar title and description follow. 

While I'm sure there are some within the church who have changed their minds and hearts, the official FBC position from 2012 and 2014 is really no mystery.

Seminar:

Ministering to Families with Same-Sex Attraction

Led by parents who had a child succumb to the pressures of homosexuality and now have a ministry to help other parents, this seminar will help you better understand same-sex attraction.  It will also help you to be better equipped to minister to individuals dealing with same-sex attraction as well as their families.

Edit to add: "These seminars are made available to you through FBC JAX church leadership, FBC JAX members, exhibitors and sponsors of the conference, and several ministries that have valuable information to share. Choose the topics that best address your needs!" http://www.jaxpastorsconference.com/conference/seminars

[Cheshire Cat]

I'm not sure where this conversation began - or how.  But what we know for sure is that less than 2 years ago FBC's leadership was so against LGBT rights in Jacksonville that their Senior Pastor participated in a letter campaign with other fundamentalist churches to oppose the HRO amendment.  We know that Pastor Brunson personally appeared in Council chambers to denounce the HRO and ask the Councilmembers to defeat it. 

And we know that soon after the ultimate defeat in August 2012 that the 10 Councilmembers voting against the measure were thanked, honored, and recognized from the pulpit of the church.

I understand FBC continues to support a so-called "ex-gay" ministry that is antithetical to the very lives of LGBT people in Jacksonville.  And I further understand that earlier this year they had a very offensive seminar as part of their Jacksonville Pastors' Conference that was as anti-gay as can be imagined.  The seminar title and description follow. 

While I'm sure there are some within the church who have changed their minds and hearts, the official FBC position from 2012 and 2014 is really no mystery.

Seminar:

Ministering to Families with Same-Sex Attraction

Led by parents who had a child succumb to the pressures of homosexuality and now have a ministry to help other parents, this seminar will help you better understand same-sex attraction.  It will also help you to be better equipped to minister to individuals dealing with same-sex attraction as well as their families.

Edit to add: "These seminars are made available to you through FBC JAX church leadership, FBC JAX members, exhibitors and sponsors of the conference, and several ministries that have valuable information to share. Choose the topics that best address your needs!" http://www.jaxpastorsconference.com/conference/seminars

Jimmy, are they still offering these seminars?

[Jimmy]

I have no doubt that the lingering hate will die off in due course.  Younger evangelicals have no problem with their LGBT brothers and sisters.  They're much more interested in saving the planet and helping the poor.  Like support for slavery and opposition to mixed-marriages, even the Southern Baptist Conference will eventually let go of anti-gay hate and bias.

But that's not much help or hope for the kids going through biblically-based "reparative therapy" today.  Another generation of self-hate, the closet, and worse.  Just my opinion as well.  A statement of support from FBC on the HRO would do wonders for the city and for the kids looking for love and understanding from their church.

[Jimmy]

Jimmy, are they still offering these seminars?

Yeah, Diane, I think so.  That was from January 25 of this year.  I think Stephen was there live-blogging?  But I don't know if he attended that particular seminar.

And this is still on their website: http://www.fbcjax.com/downtown/announcements/id,449/what-would-jesus-do-a-response-to-city-ordinance

[Jimmy]

I have no doubt - like I said, I imagine hearts and minds are changing.  But there's no way to know what the average Joe in the pew thinks.  I have to assume they agree with the way their church leaders spend the resources provided through their offerings.  At this point, that includes sending the Senior Pastor to fight against civil rights and organizing seminars for parents who've had a child "succumb to the pressures of homosexuality." 

I have to say honestly that I don't know if there's still an active ex-gay ministry at FBC, or not.  I know for a fact there was an ministry of Eleutheros at FBC for many years.  That stuff is starting to fall away, though, already, like you say.  When Exodus closed down that was a huge step forward.

[Cheshire Cat]

Diane last time I checked, the course was offered, but there were no attendees.  That might be true still, like I said, come to coffee with us and ask them yourself.

Well that is quite telling.    Good to know.

[Cheshire Cat]

Jimmy, are they still offering these seminars?

Yeah, Diane, I think so.  That was from January 25 of this year.  I think Stephen was there live-blogging?  But I don't know if he attended that particular seminar.

And this is still on their website: http://www.fbcjax.com/downtown/announcements/id,449/what-would-jesus-do-a-response-to-city-ordinance

This is not so good.  Have mercy.  I truly hope things are changing and in my heart I believe they are.  The young folk today do not hold so many of these judgements and that is a very good sign of what is to come. imo

[Cheshire Cat]

I'm not sure where this conversation began - or how.  But what we know for sure is that less than 2 years ago FBC's leadership was so against LGBT rights in Jacksonville that their Senior Pastor participated in a letter campaign with other fundamentalist churches to oppose the HRO amendment.  We know that Pastor Brunson personally appeared in Council chambers to denounce the HRO and ask the Councilmembers to defeat it. 

And we know that soon after the ultimate defeat in August 2012 that the 10 Councilmembers voting against the measure were thanked, honored, and recognized from the pulpit of the church.

I understand FBC continues to support a so-called "ex-gay" ministry that is antithetical to the very lives of LGBT people in Jacksonville.  And I further understand that earlier this year they had a very offensive seminar as part of their Jacksonville Pastors' Conference that was as anti-gay as can be imagined.  The seminar title and description follow. 

While I'm sure there are some within the church who have changed their minds and hearts, the official FBC position from 2012 and 2014 is really no mystery.

Seminar:

Ministering to Families with Same-Sex Attraction

Led by parents who had a child succumb to the pressures of homosexuality and now have a ministry to help other parents, this seminar will help you better understand same-sex attraction.  It will also help you to be better equipped to minister to individuals dealing with same-sex attraction as well as their families.

Edit to add: "These seminars are made available to you through FBC JAX church leadership, FBC JAX members, exhibitors and sponsors of the conference, and several ministries that have valuable information to share. Choose the topics that best address your needs!" http://www.jaxpastorsconference.com/conference/seminars

Well in fairness, this is a pan spectrum conference, a representation of the entire denomination in its diversity. The conferences do not represent the practice and on site programs at First Baptist in Jacksonville specifically. There were hundreds of small seminars, Jimmy.  It would be like conflating S&M marchers at a Pride Parade with the entire GLBT community.  As you say I was there, and this particular seminar, as I remember was very very small.  It was like a breakout group actually.

On the other hand, one of the Main Speakers for the entire convention was controversial for his even handed treatment of gays and baptist doctrine, and yet he was still invited to speak.  And anyways, I think you would be hard pressed to find a Baptist congregation that is sex supportive in the modern sense no matter what your gender or orientation. It would be like finding the Beef Wellington supporters at a Vegan convention.

There is diversity of opinion within the Baptist spectrum, you know.  Its like thinking there is a universal MetroJacksonville opinion.

Oh gosh.  lol lol, part of your statement brought the old T.V. commercials of Jerry Vines to mind.  Do you remember the ones talking about how God supports active sex between a man and a woman featuring him and his wife with her hair done up in a french twist.  That is something I will never get out of my mind.  lmao