OUR FUTURE SKYSCRAPERS....ANY IDEAS????

[CityLife]

I don't care what people think about Jacksonville when they see our skyline on MNF or when they drive by on I-95. I care what they think when their boots are on the ground in downtown. And when they are, they often wonder, "where is everybody" or "why is this town so dead".

We need to worry about creating vibrancy at the street level, not giving off the faux impression that there is vibrancy. New York, Chicago, San Fran, etc are what they are because of what happens at street level. Not because their buildings look cool from across the water.

A lot of things need to happen downtown and new skyscrapers aren't one of them. Unless of course that means a major business relocation.

Are you kidding? A city's skyline has everything to do with its image, those cities you mention have both street and visual appeal. Jax looks nice at night, by day the real story is told.

Jacksonville's "image" is that it is a city with a dead downtown. That has absolutely nothing to do with lack of a skyline and everything do with lack of a vibrant street environment. There are 50+ cities in the US that have worse skylines than Jacksonville and far more vibrancy.

To some people Downtown is just a set of buildings that they see from the highway when they drive by...for those of us that live, work, and play Downtown, it is an area that is lacking vibrancy FAR more than it is lacking high rises.

We need more low and mid rise infill to build vibrancy far more than we need skyscrapers.

[downtownjag]

Where are you getting your % from downtownjag?

CoStar & industry reports.

[simms3]

all of the big 4 have offices downtown.

Correct.  PwC is in the Bank of America Tower; the rest are in the Wells Fargo building.  Granted, the number of professionals at each is much smaller than in Atlanta.

I don't think any major law firms outside of Foley & Lardner and Holland & Knight have offices in Jax.

Akerman Senterfitt and McGuire Woods have Jacksonville offices, although the largest office in the city is the local firm of Rogers Towers.

Another interesting fact about the Everbank building on Riverside: all of the tenants are also owners of the building itself.  Technically, they're partners in the limited liability partnership that owns the building.  The developer actually wanted to build it taller, but couldn't find enough interested tenant-partners at the time.

Yeah I did a lookup and that's right, but the pool of class A high rise office tenants is very limited in Jacksonville.  Essentially with the age of the building stock, a building like Wells Fargo Center and Riverplace Tower are B class buildings filled with A class tenants.  There's a lot of B space occupied by A tenants, and there are a lot of B tenants in Jacksonville in the burbs or in older buildings in town.  What needs to take place is one big expansion or relocation of a premiere A tenant who can anchor a new tower, timing of other A tenants' leases so that they can play musical chairs, pay the $25+ rent necessary to get a new building off the ground, and then that would free up a lot of the B stock in downtown Jacksonville that could essentially spur more moves similar to Everbank.

Right now there aren't enough floorplates/consolidated suites available to those who would consider moving downtown because the available building stock, even with the vacancy, is not there.  A lot of the big tenants are in the burbs, so a lot of the small tenants that would occupy 500-5,000 SF are also in the burbs for convenience to their business.

(I'm not a broker, but I have heard stories from people in companies scouting space...and they couldn't find the appropriate configurations or the right size, despite all the vacancies in the various buildings, so my above statements are inference...)

Also, that's an interesting model for building office.  I'm trying to wrap my head around how the capital stack would work and I'm wondering how many conflicts could possibly arise on decision making at the project level...like when to sell and what to do with the retail space and how much to charge for parking...I can't imagine a law firm, a bank and a developer having the same set of goals and expectations!

[simms3]

And I'm not arguing Simms' all knowing asset managerish knowledge of the market and why it's soo hard to make a name in Atlanta.

Huh?  I think the only thing we have disagreed on is the severity of 20% vacancy.  I contend in today's world it's enough to might as well be empty and it certainly won't help push rents in Jacksonville or Dallas, which is basically as cheap as Jacksonville and 6 times the size.

Or questioning his calling Everbank Center Class A

I said maybe BOA and Everbank.  If I had come right out and said Jax had no class A towers the world would scream at me.  What do you consider class A or do you agree that by most cities' standards Jax doesn't have "CBD" class A product?

[Keith-N-Jax]

I don't care what people think about Jacksonville when they see our skyline on MNF or when they drive by on I-95. I care what they think when their boots are on the ground in downtown. And when they are, they often wonder, "where is everybody" or "why is this town so dead".

We need to worry about creating vibrancy at the street level, not giving off the faux impression that there is vibrancy. New York, Chicago, San Fran, etc are what they are because of what happens at street level. Not because their buildings look cool from across the water.

A lot of things need to happen downtown and new skyscrapers aren't one of them. Unless of course that means a major business relocation.

Are you kidding? A city's skyline has everything to do with its image, those cities you mention have both street and visual appeal. Jax looks nice at night, by day the real story is told.

Jacksonville's "image" is that it is a city with a dead downtown. That has absolutely nothing to do with lack of a skyline and everything do with lack of a vibrant street environment. There are 50+ cities in the US that have worse skylines than Jacksonville and far more vibrancy.

To some people Downtown is just a set of buildings that they see from the highway when they drive by...for those of us that live, work, and play Downtown, it is an area that is lacking vibrancy FAR more than it is lacking high rises.

We need more low and mid rise infill to build vibrancy far more than we need skyscrapers.

I personally didnt say we needed more skyscrapers like this thread title, I said a city's skyline does have alot to do with its image and it certainly does.

[CityLife]

I don't care what people think about Jacksonville when they see our skyline on MNF or when they drive by on I-95. I care what they think when their boots are on the ground in downtown. And when they are, they often wonder, "where is everybody" or "why is this town so dead".

We need to worry about creating vibrancy at the street level, not giving off the faux impression that there is vibrancy. New York, Chicago, San Fran, etc are what they are because of what happens at street level. Not because their buildings look cool from across the water.

A lot of things need to happen downtown and new skyscrapers aren't one of them. Unless of course that means a major business relocation.

Are you kidding? A city's skyline has everything to do with its image, those cities you mention have both street and visual appeal. Jax looks nice at night, by day the real story is told.

Jacksonville's "image" is that it is a city with a dead downtown. That has absolutely nothing to do with lack of a skyline and everything do with lack of a vibrant street environment. There are 50+ cities in the US that have worse skylines than Jacksonville and far more vibrancy.

To some people Downtown is just a set of buildings that they see from the highway when they drive by...for those of us that live, work, and play Downtown, it is an area that is lacking vibrancy FAR more than it is lacking high rises.

We need more low and mid rise infill to build vibrancy far more than we need skyscrapers.

I personally didnt say we needed more skyscrapers like this thread title, I said a city's skyline does have alot to do with its image and it certainly does.

Much like Cinderella's castle has a lot to do with Disney's image...but at the end of the day its empty and merely symbolic. Cities are measured by what happens at the street level, not by the size of their buildings. Paris for instance is arguably the greatest city on earth (depending on who you talk to) and there are virtually no buildings over 5 or 6 stories in the center city.

[Ocklawaha]

Paris for instance is arguably the greatest city on earth (depending on who you talk to) and there are virtually no buildings over 5 or 6 stories in the center city.

Well that's a rule in Paris so people can easily see the spires of the cathedrals and the Eiffel Tower, Arch De Triumph, and other sites that um, uh, make up THE PARIS SKYLINE!

As a world traveler, I've seen many, many, skylines. Pittsburgh rising from the junction of the three rivers and fenced in by mountains is one of my favorite. Laos Angles, hardly noted for it's skyline is quite a sight from the front door of Union Station. Panama City Panama is absolutely stunning seen from the crystal waters of the sea. Medellin, Rio, Manhattan and San Francisco all shine at night...   But I wouldn't score any of them above Jacksonville's even as it stands today. People here don't seem to appreciate the beauty of our city as seen from the Fuller Warren... You could hardly reproduce it with all of the talent in Disney!

OCKLAWAHA

[CityLife]

The Arc De Triomphe, Notre Dame, Sainte Chapelle, Sacre Couer, etc are skyscrapers?  The point was that you don't need skyscrapers to be a great city. Interestingly Paris does have a very impressive grouping of skyscrapers called La Defense just outside of the center city, but you rarely if ever see it shown in movies, tv, or print.

[BackinJax05]

More skyscrapers would be nice, but as so many have already said - the ones already downtown are mostly vacant.
Independent Life/AccuStaff/Modis/Wells Fargo, Helmut's Pencil, and the AT&T building are pretty to look at, but God help anyone over the 6th floor in case of fire. JFRD's ladders can only reach so high.

[fsujax]

More skyscrapers would be nice, but as so many have already said - the ones already downtown are mostly vacant.

This is not true. They are not mostly vacant. Enterprise Center probably has the highest vacany rate now. Everbank Center will be 70% occupied when Everbank moves in. CSX fills two buildings alone. I get so tired of hearing no one works, lives or does anything Downtown. Those myths continue to perpetuate a negative view of Downtown by many.

[John P]

Kahn Tower has a nice ring to it.

[vicupstate]

But I wouldn't score any of them above Jacksonville's even as it stands today. People here don't seem to appreciate the beauty of our city as seen from the Fuller Warren... You could hardly reproduce it with all of the talent in Disney!

I am much less traveled that Oklawaha, but within the US, I have seen a fair number of skylines, and Jax is at or very near the top. 

Unfortunately, the value of it is not appreciated locally.  Otherwise the bridges and buildings would be lite up every night.  Also  the properties with skyline views would have a 'view premium' added to their  rent and resale values.   That doesn't appear to be the case.     

[Tacachale]

The way I would put it is aesthetics are very important, and city's skyline is a key aspect of those aesthetics. But having a fully functioning downtown is even more important. This doesn't require skyscrapers to happen.

For example, Asheville, NC has a vibrant downtown and basically no skyscrapers. I'd much rather spend time there than in skyscraper havens like Brickell, Miami or Buckhead, Atlanta.

[simms3]

^^^Agreed.

I do not think that of the skyscrapers Jax does have, many or any are "icons" except for maybe the Wells Fargo Center for its scale and base and prominence in the skyline.  If Jax were to ever add a new skyscraper, it would most certainly be a real class A tower and would command the highest rent, and as part of that package I would hope/guess that the team would commission a currently reputable architect to lead the design.  I think we could expect that at some point in the future, whether that's within 5 years (unlikely) or within 15 years (highly likely by default).

Pickard Chilton designed Nashville's latest (which is a Cesar Pelli knockoff, has one of the nicest lobbies anywhere and nicest office space, but looks like so many other buildings).  Pickard Chilton also designed the 55 floor Devon Tower in Oklahoma City, which to me really is a significant design.  Pickard Chilton also designed 1180 Peachtree (2006), which is the most expensive office building in the south outside of Miami.  He seems to be the architect du jour for prominent new towers.

Granted Devon is anchored by Devon's HQ (I believe the vast majority of the tower), Pinnacle in Nashville is leased to all of the prominent law firms in Nashville, and 1180 Peachtree is almost exclusively leased to King & Spalding and serves as their HQ.

[Keith-N-Jax]

But I wouldn't score any of them above Jacksonville's even as it stands today. People here don't seem to appreciate the beauty of our city as seen from the Fuller Warren... You could hardly reproduce it with all of the talent in Disney!

I am much less traveled that Oklawaha, but within the US, I have seen a fair number of skylines, and Jax is at or very near the top. 

Unfortunately, the value of it is not appreciated locally.  Otherwise the bridges and buildings would be lite up every night.  Also  the properties with skyline views would have a 'view premium' added to their  rent and resale values.   That doesn't appear to be the case.     

Jax skyline is very nice at night, but to say its near or close to the top sounds like home town cooking. Not trying to be rude but I think you should travel a little more.