OUR FUTURE SKYSCRAPERS....ANY IDEAS????

[Ocklawaha]

While I pretty much agree with you on the future of downtown, I think KennyLovesJAX was thinking more along whimsical lines, a sort of Jacksonville 'what if.'

As for the REAL future? Who knows? A mayor full of ideas, truly focused on downtown and a city government willing to support those ideas could reshape the skyline. We have some really big dogs hidden in these sprawling outer limits office parks around the city and some of these firms are quite familiar with the idea of 'IMAGE'. Just for the sake of argument, what do you think could happen if some incredible incentive were offered to companies willing to relocate downtown? How long would it be before we'd be seeing pine trees atop lofty steel frames?

[jerry cornwell]

While I pretty much agree with you on the future of downtown, I think KennyLovesJAX was thinking more along whimsical lines, a sort of Jacksonville 'what if.'

As for the REAL future? Who knows? A mayor full of ideas, truly focused on downtown and a city government willing to support those ideas could reshape the skyline. We have some really big dogs hidden in these sprawling outer limits office parks around the city and some of these firms are quite familiar with the idea of 'IMAGE'. Just for the sake of argument, what do you think could happen if some incredible incentive were offered to companies willing to relocate downtown? How long would it be before we'd be seeing pine trees atop lofty steel frames?

I don't see companies relocating downtown no matter what the incentive, which realistically won't be too incredible.
I see a strong destiny for downtown in residential presence. Already the culture element is securing itself as the magnet for a good number of youngsters willing to become Jacksonvilles true urban residents.
At the risk of repeating myself, DT has every reason to focus on NYCs  dilapidated '70s Lower East Side Village as an example to build (and motivate) for the future!
And all that with state of the art rapid transit at its center!

[downtownjag]

I don't know where some of you are getting this "empty buildings DT" line.  True class A and B  buildings are at or above 80% occupancy.  Enterprise Center is the exception, but Wells is still on the hook to Commonwealth for the lease.

Certainly the numbers they are being leased at don't justify construction, but they also aren't "sitting empty".  Absorbption was positive last quarter as well.

Some of the C class properties are sitting vacant, but they have inefficient or obsolete floorplates, no parking, i.e., some reason they aren't occupied.

[Ocklawaha]

Where are you getting your % from downtownjag?

When crossing the Fuller Warren, there is a hole in the skyline between CSX and Fidelity, and the east end of both banks, the dead Berkman Project and the former JEA lot could all use some infill. IF we really could get a high-rise somewhere around the TU and ST JOE building, the downtown would at least appear to be enormous to all of those CEO'S taking the family to Disney on I-95. I DO THINK our skylines urban appearance is perhaps our most undersold asset.

OCK

[simms3]

I don't know where some of you are getting this "empty buildings DT" line.  True class A and B  buildings are at or above 80% occupancy.  Enterprise Center is the exception, but Wells is still on the hook to Commonwealth for the lease.

Certainly the numbers they are being leased at don't justify construction, but they also aren't "sitting empty".  Absorbption was positive last quarter as well.

Some of the C class properties are sitting vacant, but they have inefficient or obsolete floorplates, no parking, i.e., some reason they aren't occupied.

20% vacancy might as well be considered empty in office world, especially in the land of Class A (which Jax doesn't have any "true" Class A space except for maybe BOA and Everbank).  Nashville's last office tower was class A (as all new office construction is) and rents average $27-$28 in that building (as opposed to $19-$22 for the best space in downtown Jax).  New construction in any sector occurs with rent growth, which is a result of some sort of combination of population growth, job growth and income growth...all of which result in tighter vacancy and thus rent growth.  Job growth from luring call centers will not result in DT jobs or demand for more expensive intown apts/condos.

Consider Dallas.  Rents have averaged $20-$22 for class A space and vacancy has not dipped lower than 15% in the past 25 years.  There has been no rent growth and no "drop" in vacancy with all the constant suburban construction, thus the last office tower to be built in downtown (not Uptown) was 1987.  Cityplace was constructed in 1987, and the last office tower over 300 ft built in the suburbs of Dallas was Three Galleria in 1990.  It's only even recent that high rise condos have been in demand in Dallas.

It's like high-rise multifamily (or even just simple concrete infill).  Rents have to be at a certain level to justify the construction, land has to cost a certain amount to truly warrant the need, and there has to be rent growth to attract capital/lenders.

[jerry cornwell]

Just visited Cincy, St. Louis, and Oklahoma City.  Took a five mile walk on the OKC "riverwalk" / biking path.  The St. Johns is heaven and our riverwalk is unbelievably superior than what those cities even have the possibility of creating.  We can bend down and virtually touch our (non-muddy, non-massively embanked) river from our walks. 

I had the same experience in Brooklyn, NY.

[Timkin]

When I speak of filling empty buildings, some for examples come to mind right away...

* The Old JEA Building

* The Laura Trio

* The Ambassador


No problem with having new skyscrapers... but would love to see places like these revived and put to use, either commercial, residential or a combination of. 

[Jason]

I threw together some images in Google Earth a while back that portrayed what the skyline would look like if the 5 main empty blocks in the CBD were covered up with towers.  The skyline changed dramatically.  Also, it gave a peek of a true Jacksonville skyscraper canyon. 

After filling up the main 5 blocks I went crazy and started plopping towers on every blank spot I could find.  It was a lot of fun! 

I'll try to dig the images up and post them sometime soon.  They may even be here already but I think I did that back in the 'ol MetJax days.  I'll even post some updated images that incorporate the newly added 3D buildings already built into GE. 

[KennyLovesJAX]

IMAGE IS EVERYTHING!!!!! i love the feedback everyone!!, and i hope to see the pics soon man^^^^ but when tourists bypass our downtown on I-95.......they will say "Oh that's nice" but they get to south beach and see downtown Miami......they will say "OMG Thats soo beautiful!"....IMAGE IMAGE IMAGE!

[CityLife]

I don't care what people think about Jacksonville when they see our skyline on MNF or when they drive by on I-95. I care what they think when their boots are on the ground in downtown. And when they are, they often wonder, "where is everybody" or "why is this town so dead".

We need to worry about creating vibrancy at the street level, not giving off the faux impression that there is vibrancy. New York, Chicago, San Fran, etc are what they are because of what happens at street level. Not because their buildings look cool from across the water.

A lot of things need to happen downtown and new skyscrapers aren't one of them. Unless of course that means a major business relocation.

[fsquid]

I don't think any big accounting firms have offices in Jax.

all of the big 4 have offices downtown.

[simms3]

I have heard a lot of feedback about downtown Jacksonville in my lifetime from visitors, and none of it has been geared toward the skyline.  Everyone has always either mentioned drinking beer at the Landing or the overall lack of activity/things to do on their visit.

Ironically, I just heard positive feedback from some college buddies from Boston who were visiting a mutual friend we have in Birmingham.  Our friend lives in a condo right intown within walking distance of bars, shops and really really one of the best restaurant scenes in the south/country.  Needless to say they were impressed with the character of Birmingham, the apparent culture, the walkability and the vibrancy.  Granted none of their trip involved a foray into Birmingham's dead downtown, what impressed them had nothing to do with tall buildings and everything to do with the scene at ground level.

That is to me why Brickell is so unimpressive.  It could swallow 5 Midtown Atlantas and one would hardly blink an eye, but at street level it is so disengaging and there is more street activity in Midtown Atlanta than Brickell Ave will ever have no matter how many towers go up.  South Beach has a greatly reduced skyline and is probably the most walkable, most urban neighborhood south of the Mason Dixon and blows Brickell Ave out of the water in terms of vibrancy.

Again, Dallas hasn't built a new office skyscraper in decades and has only entered the realm of high rise condos/apartments in the last few years, but it is miles ahead of Houston in terms of building a large, concentrated area of density and walkability.  Houston is still building 50 floor office towers and the occasional 30 story condo tower completely isolated from anywhere else within a block.  Uptown Houston is a mess (lots of skyscrapers, little connectivity).  Uptown Dallas is becoming something cool (fewer skyscrapers with lots of low-rise/mid-rise infill, tons of connectivity).

[Traveller]

all of the big 4 have offices downtown.

Correct.  PwC is in the Bank of America Tower; the rest are in the Wells Fargo building.  Granted, the number of professionals at each is much smaller than in Atlanta.

I don't think any major law firms outside of Foley & Lardner and Holland & Knight have offices in Jax.

Akerman Senterfitt and McGuire Woods have Jacksonville offices, although the largest office in the city is the local firm of Rogers Towers.

Another interesting fact about the Everbank building on Riverside: all of the tenants are also owners of the building itself.  Technically, they're partners in the limited liability partnership that owns the building.  The developer actually wanted to build it taller, but couldn't find enough interested tenant-partners at the time.

[Traveller]

And in the ultimate irony, my Pandora station is now playing "Jacksonville Skyline" by Whiskeytown (yes, I realize it's a different Jacksonville).

[Keith-N-Jax]

I don't care what people think about Jacksonville when they see our skyline on MNF or when they drive by on I-95. I care what they think when their boots are on the ground in downtown. And when they are, they often wonder, "where is everybody" or "why is this town so dead".

We need to worry about creating vibrancy at the street level, not giving off the faux impression that there is vibrancy. New York, Chicago, San Fran, etc are what they are because of what happens at street level. Not because their buildings look cool from across the water.

A lot of things need to happen downtown and new skyscrapers aren't one of them. Unless of course that means a major business relocation.

Are you kidding? A city's skyline has everything to do with its image, those cities you mention have both street and visual appeal. Jax looks nice at night, by day the real story is told.