3Rd Largest City on the East Coast

[Ocklawaha]

Watching the first half of the Jags - Eagles game, I started thinking about us being right behind Philly as the number 3 city on the East Coast. I have seen people on here apologise over and over for this "misleading information." But hold on to your hats boys and girls, is it REALLY that misleading, or does some corporate mogul have to use his brain just a tad to fully understand us? Over and over in our learning from other cities, we see comments that, "yeah we're big, but not really."

Ever stop to think about that? Who says in order to call a place a city, it must be wall to wall concrete? What rule says we need 5 Million people to be a REAL city. Bull Shit! I can take anyone in Duval county to any edge of this metro you want and show you houses, 7-11 stores, Krystal's, and Winn-Dixie. Would be be a REAL City if that were condos, BP stations, White Castle and Albertsons? So we have about 800,000 within our city limits, yeah, the whole damn county because we are perhaps the most sprawled urban area in the country. We also find ourselves in that position because the original city limits were DEAD CENTER of our county and for race, white flight, taxes, utilities, or whatever, we had long outgrown them.

We didn't pull some illegal slight of hand so we could run with big dogs, we are a pretty damn big dog ourselves. In spite of our sometimes less then inspired leadership, we did something no one had done before, CONSOLIDATION. Like it or hate it, we did it, right out in the sunshine. I for one having lived through it think today we are far better off then we would have been without it. Today it seems as if our leadership has slid back into the sewer and we are doing our best to wake this city up. Not this town, THIS CITY. A BIG CITY and I'll bet my life on it, it's going to suprise the most optimistic boosters among us and rocket upward.

So 1.3 Million persons call Jacksonville home, cool, that means a full 500,000 of them are in our suburban counties. Gee mom, just like Los Angeles, only friendlier. Someone please tell me how many hundred thousand we need in Nassau, St. Johns, Baker and Clay, so we can call them cities too? Are they as much a part of our metro as Burbank is to LA? or Sanford is to Orlando?

I'm sick of hearing the very people that should be standing on these facts and defending them to all comers back down and make yet another apology for Jacksonville. As of tonight, from here on, WE ARE THAT CITY, every damn inch of it. No excuses, no lies, believe it or leave it...

That's my view...

OCKLAWAHA

[Tripoli1711]

I stand with you in your call to arms.  When do we storm the Bastille/City Hall?

[Joe]

Using city limits numbers is always misleading. City limits are totally arbitrary ...*particularly* in Jacksonville, because it's such an outlier.

Metro figures are the appropriate measure of what the majority of people think is a "city" population.

[reednavy]

Using city limits numbers is always misleading. City limits are totally arbitrary ...*particularly* in Jacksonville, because it's such an outlier.

Metro figures are the appropriate measure of what the majority of people think is a "city" population.

Then you can say the same for Denver, Louisville, Indianapolis, Nashville, Lexington, others that are Metro gov't. You can also toss OKC in there because it's spread over 4 counties and it's number are skewed as well.

When it comes down to it, people can say Metro gives a better indication, whatever, city limits is what I go by, and many other agencies do as well.

[thelakelander]

I agree with Joe.  We can flaunt the municipal city limit numbers all we want but it only sets people up for a let down when "smaller" cities like San Francisco, Boston, DC, Miami....insert name here are compared.  I go by urban area numbers because they are structured in a manner of where they give more of an apples to apples evaluation.

Then you can say the same for Denver, Louisville, Indianapolis, Nashville, Lexington, others that are Metro gov't. You can also toss OKC in there because it's spread over 4 counties and it's number are skewed as well.

All of these cities are second tier american cities at best.  Anyway, so what if we are a second tier city?  No one should take it as an insult.  We are what we are and we should do what we can to be the best we can be.

[heights unknown]

Here Here Ock!  I am with you my Man!  When are we going to mass the troops and invade City Government and run that thing like it should be run?

Heights Unknown

[Seraphs]

Both sides of the argument makes sense to a degree.  However, I agree with Ock.

[Ocklawaha]

I agree with Joe.  We can flaunt the municipal city limit numbers all we want but it only sets people up for a let down when "smaller" cities like San Francisco, Boston, DC, Miami....insert name here are compared.  I go by urban area numbers because they are structured in a manner of where they give more of an apples to apples evaluation.

Then you can say the same for Denver, Louisville, Indianapolis, Nashville, Lexington, others that are Metro gov't. You can also toss OKC in there because it's spread over 4 counties and it's number are skewed as well.

All of these cities are second tier American cities at best.  Anyway, so what if we are a second tier city?  No one should take it as an insult.  We are what we are and we should do what we can to be the best we can be.

Lake, rather then back down and apologising to the guy who comes here and says, "I thought Jacksonville was bigger then Miami, San Francisco, Boston, DC... insert name here." My point is, as true JAXSON'S and boosters of our city the instant answer should be, "You would be correct, we are bigger then XXX, and unlike XXX, Jacksonville comes with the benefit of being a great metropolitan center without the complications of being lost in a sea of Cities. With about a half million people in the surrounding metro area, you will find it is quite easy to enjoy a true cosmopolitan atmosphere, at dinner downtown, and still get out on the beach for a solitary walk by sunset. All totaled, we are 1.3 million people in our own little corner of paradise, exactly half way between Miami and Atlanta, without the stress of either."

So lets quit the apologetics for our city as Lake says, we ARE what we ARE and HEY IT AIN'T BAD. We have 800,000+ within the City Limits, I don't care if they encompass just 3 miles or 3,000 miles, WITHIN OUR CITY LIMITS we are number 3 on the East Coast. By the same token, I'm not going to back down when someone says but your metro is only......yadda, yadda. I DON'T CARE that we are number 45 m/l in the US Metro counts, I remember when we didn't have 250,000, in my lifetime. So don't tell me we aren't passing our competition, one industry, one office, or one rail car, or container, at a time. If you have a problem with that, let me help you, number 3 comes in between number 2, and number 4, got it now?

As a parting shot over the bow, I'll add, "We know that Miami, is glitzy, and along with Orlando, Tampa and Ft. Lauderdale, they are America's playground..., we ought to know, because we financed and built them." THAT'S WHAT MAKES JACKSONVILLE SO SPECIAL. This message is NOT misleading, it is, however, LEADING.



OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Lake, rather then back down and apologising to the guy who comes here and says, "I thought Jacksonville was bigger then Miami, San Francisco, Boston, DC... insert name here."

According to the latest census estimates we are the 40th largest metropolitan area in the US.  From my personal travels, it looks and feels that way also.  Looking at things through rose colored glasses is just not my trait.  I'm a guy who likes to tell it like it is.  However, I don't consider the truth as backing down or apologizing. 

I rarely come across someone (over 21) who thinks Jacksonville is bigger than places like Atlanta, Miami or Boston.  Those that do, typically have no concept of what an urban area is.

My point is, as true JAXSON'S and boosters of our city the instant answer should be, "You would be correct, we are bigger then XXX, and unlike XXX, Jacksonville comes with the benefit of being a great metropolitan center without the complications of being lost in a sea of Cities.

With about a half million people in the surrounding metro area, you will find it is quite easy to enjoy a true cosmopolitan atmosphere, at dinner downtown, and still get out on the beach for a solitary walk by sunset. All totaled, we are 1.3 million people in our own little corner of paradise, exactly half way between Miami and Atlanta, without the stress of either."

My point is, I can be a booster of the city without inflating statistics.  For example, check out our neighborhoods section (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/neighborhoods).  You'll find a couple of years of articles I've written that showcase our assets without mentioning who's the big dog on the block by population.  

With me, its all about the quality of life aspect.  City/Metro size is irrelevent when trying to sell someone on a community's livability assets.  For example, I prefer a place like Charleston or Savannah to one like Houston or Phoenix.  However, from a professional perspective I believe its best to understand and accept the deck of cards you're dealt and go from there.  If you can't get past the basics, you'll fail to succeed in the end.

So lets quit the apologetics for our city as Lake says, we ARE what we ARE and HEY IT AIN'T BAD. We have 800,000+ within the City Limits, I don't care if they encompass just 3 miles or 3,000 miles, WITHIN OUR CITY LIMITS we are number 3 on the East Coast. By the same token, I'm not going to back down when someone says but your metro is only......yadda, yadda. I DON'T CARE that we are number 45 m/l in the US Metro counts, I remember when we didn't have 250,000, in my lifetime.

Move over New York, Yakutat City, AK is the largest city in the U.S.

[stjr]

As asked in other quarters, does size really matter or is it the quality of the experience? 

If we focus on our quality of life, everything else will take care of itself: economic development, self-esteem, recognition, being a world-class city, an attractive place to move to, etc.

Unfortunately, too often, Jacksonville (and Florida) relies on slogans, gimmicks, and quick fixes to address its "ills".  These are often short sighted and don't hold water for the long term.  Just witness the City Council's last minute jump into the budget process were uninformed Council members are instant experts toying with the essence of our City in a relative few minutes of time - unconcerned and unaware of what the long term consequences of their actions may really be.  So continues the most reliable of Jacksonville traditions - going for the superficial and glamor, avoiding the responsible and thoughtful, and never planning or visioning.  We are destined at this rate to spin wheels for the foreseeable future without relief.  There is no "wake up" in sight.
The City Council will spend more time talking reactively about Jags tickets, parades, minor commissions and boards, self congratulatory "honors", incentives for more growth, decorating offices, pointing fingers, etc. than they will addressing proactively quality of life issues such as education, safety, culture, recreation, environment, transit, health care, etc.

[vicupstate]

For the record, Denver and Nashville both consolidated befoe Jacksonville.  Albeit, Denver city/county is MUCH, MUCH smaller geographical than nearly all of US counties.

[thelakelander]

San Francisco (1856), New Orleans (1874) and Philadelphia (1854) also consolidated with their counties before Jacksonville.

[thelakelander]

Btw, great points Stjr.

[Deuce]

We are a big city, I agree. I would not have moved here if Jacksonville was a small town. When I considered my move, I didn't look at cities like Charleston or Savannah, because they are not big cities. There are so many measures of what makes a big city. For the US, we hit that mark in total population. I believe we also hit it in metro population. The only measure we might fail on is population density.

[Seraphs]

In my wacky opinion, What Ock is saying about Jacksonville and it's city limit and consolidation is the same as what lake is saying about metro area.  Many metro areas are about proximity, for instance if St. Petersburg and perhaps Clearwater wasn't so close to Tampa, Tampa would be the same size as Jax.  However, the fact is both Clearwater and St. Pete are within Tampa's metro area just like the fact that the consolidated city  of Jax boost our populous.

City limit vs metro area either side you fall on it's factual.  So why not embrace the consolidation and run with it.  Miami uses the convienence of Ft. Lauderdale to boost it's metro numbers just like we use our entire county to boost our city numbers.  What is the difference?  They are both facts!