JTA Skyway Riverside Extension

[thelakelander]

^I think Fallen Buckeye was referring to PCTs, not real trolley buses.

[Shwaz]

No one is asking for a beach extension and the article is only discussing the possibility of a Riverside Ave line. Also said was that this mode of transportation is more like an elevator that moves laterally. Would you take a 25 mile elevator?

This discussion always tends to become peoples personal opinion based on whether they would ride it or not ride it.

Shwaz, an elevator in the tallest structure in the world wouldn't go more than about 2,500 feet.  That is, tops, a half mile.  The $ky-high-way does, and is proposed to, extend many times that distance.  So, elevator (or other relatively slow) speeds are already an issue in the present application expanded as proposed, or not.

And, no, I don't see this discussion being resolved by expressing a personal opinion based on one's own desire to ride it.  Rather, the debate should be focused on the context of the entire community to be served and invoiced for its costs and against what other options/solutions the $ky-high-way might be measured against.  Unfortunately, you appear to be practicing the claim you make, making your decision to support this on your singular needs only.  That's your prerogative, but that won't go far in convincing several hundred thousand (or millions, if federal money is used) of your fellow taxpayers to support your position.

STJR - I backed my claim with why I would ride it and why I think others in the urban core neighborhoods would as well. My point was most people just say "I would or I wouldn't" and that's the reasoning for or against it.

I was saying why the people mover concept wouldn't work for longer runs (downtown / beach) and I believe OCK made the point that travel could be faster and more effecient than any other means in place now.

[JaxNative68]

My point being that you need to make it more reliable, faster and connecting more than one neighborhood to the downtown area.  Connecting it to where the people live is key to boosting its ridership.  If it could be ridden to work on a daily basis rather than having to drive to work then riding it for 'sight seeing' while taking a two hour lunch due to its snails pace, ridership would increase.  Just extending it to Riverside Avenue will not make it any more efficient than it currently is.  Extending the system outside of the downtown area is key.  Maybe during these JTB expansion projects the skyway should have been expanded down I-95 to JTB and out to the beach (obviously it would have to be speed up).  Then you would be connecting points of interest and points of residential neighborhoods.  Downtown, South Point, St Johns Town Center, Mayo Clinic and the beach could all be major stops.

Connecting office buildings to other office buildings just doesn’t cut it.  IT NEEDS TO BE CONNECTED TO WHERE THE PEOPLE LIVE TO BE SUCCESSFULL!

[Shwaz]

My point being that you need to make it more reliable, faster and connecting more than one neighborhood to the downtown area.  Connecting it to where the people live is key to boosting its ridership.  If it could be ridden to work on a daily basis rather than having to drive to work then riding it for 'sight seeing' while taking a two hour lunch due to its snails pace, ridership would increase.  Just extending it to Riverside Avenue will not make it any more efficient than it currently is.  Extending the system outside of the downtown area is key.  Maybe during these JTB expansion projects the skyway should have been expanded down I-95 to JTB and out to the beach (obviously it would have to be speed up).  Then you would be connecting points of interest and points of residential neighborhoods.  Downtown, South Point, St Johns Town Center, Mayo Clinic and the beach could all be major stops.

Connecting office buildings to other office buildings just doesn’t cut it.  IT NEEDS TO BE CONNECTED TO WHERE THE PEOPLE LIVE TO BE SUCCESSFULL!

I agree as with all skywway proponents that it does have to be connected to where the people live... but only the immediate neighborhoods - Riverside, San Marco, Springfield, etc.

The longer runs like Mandarin, Orange Park , Jax Beach need a light rail system not people mover.

However the skyway is already capable of more cars, increased travel speed and a more efficient stopping system like Ock pointed out.

[JaxNative68]

More cars and more speed would work.  I'm not expecting a bullet train to take me 25 miles, but a smooth 55mph would probably get the job done. 

Kick back and read a chapter or two while riding a train to work, used to do it in DC, and it was great!  Not to mention on the ride home as well.  It's a lot better than driving amongst the Jacksonville road raged people who think they are in a NASCAR race.

It don't mean literally that it has to be the skyway.  The king street station could be a nice transfer hub.

[stjr]

stjr, This discussion will not be resolved unless we find a conservative way to build mass transit. You should be looking out for your fellow taxpayers and insist that our city does not invest in Mass Transit as it is only an accommodation needed by the poor. All modes of Transit should operate at a profit and cover all initial investment or sundry charges. If people need a way to move around the City, we should immediately add lanes to our freeways, and consider building a new freeway through the middle of downtown. It is only the consultants and so called experts that suggest a $kyway would be cheaper then a freeway in per mile costs. There is nothing personal about refusing facts published by The Monorail Society, JTA, USDOT, or The American Public Transportation Association, Claiming that you would ride a monorail based on where you work, live or play is pure speculation. Along with more lane miles within the metropolis, a flexible transit system operating on 45 minute headways should be sufficient  provided it is not subsidized by the American people. (DID I GET IT RIGHT THIS TIME MY NEGATIVE FRIEND?)

Ock, for every "negative" there is a "positive".  I am "positive" I am right.  You are "negative" toward my position.  You are "positive" you are right.  I am "negative" toward your position.  So, we are actually guilty of the same pleasures, just in differing camps.  I'm OK, your OK. 

Of course, your satire misrepresents my points by far, for those just joining the fray.

I have no problem with a money losing system, but I do not support a system that loses far more money than a better alternative.  I am POSITIVELY FOR supporting rail mass transit (especially over building more roads such as the Outer Beltway), but that doesn't give planners a blank check to buy just any system.

I am POSITIVELY FOR the best value and results for my money.  I don't believe for a moment that the $ky-high-way does that despite your nicely made and impassioned points.  Why?  Well that brings us to your next point, consultants.  Transportation consultants have a rather notorious reputation for being far off on projections of traffic and investment dollars needed for public transit projects.  The $ky-high-way is Exhibit A with estimates for the already completed system being off over 90% after 20 years!  Don't blame me for being skeptical, blame your consultant friends.  I am POSITIVELY FOR consultants bearing the burden as to why they should be suddenly believed after a two decade history of so many, to put it nicely, grossly negligent projections ("prostituting lies" might be used by others).

And, my point with Shwaz was we can't build or extend the $ky-high-way or any other system just because a handful of people say they would use it because it happens to satisfy their unique needs.  I am POSITIVELY FOR a system that serves the community at large.

As to frequency, I am not sure I get your drift, but I am POSITIVELY FOR a viable system that operates at peak times with no less than 15 minute intervals and that operates almost 24/7.  I am POSITIVELY FOR reliable frequency of service and not requiring people to memorize uneven and unpredictable schedules, to me, is a major traffic builder.

You didn't mention it, but I will stir the pot a bit more and bring up my skepticism about the willingness of people to interface between other transit modes and the $ky-high-way.  I am POSITIVELY FOR a user-friendly design, not one that disuades potential riders due to its elevated and intimidating architecture, generally inconvenient inter-modal connection possibilities, slow speed, unreliable and infrequent service, and short distance runs (even at your extended 3 or 4 miles).

I am also POSITIVELY FOR a transit system that complements or blends with existing infrastructure, architecture, and streetscapes rather than overwhelms, detracts, and/or competes with them.

Ock, you can take your limited time and energy and throw it behind a losing horse named the $ky-high-way, or you can move on and bet on a winner for the future.  I am POSITIVELY FOR choosing to move on to the better solution(s) we all know are out there.

Now, you can tell people stories otherwise, but I am POSITIVELY sure anything else just ain't so from my lips.  Now it's "right", my equally "negative friend". 

[Fallen Buckeye]

Ock, you can take your limited time and energy and throw it behind a losing horse named the $ky-high-way, or you can move on and bet on a winner for the future.  I am POSITIVELY FOR choosing to move on to the better solution(s) we all know are out there.

Brings up an interesting point. Obviously there is a need a more comprehensive public transportation system here, but limited means to make that system a reality. So what is the priority here? Should focus on how people get around in the downtown area or is it more important to get people to the downtown area through commuter rail?

My feeling is that it'd be important to focus on connecting downtown to the suburban areas first. If you get more people downtown quickly and conveniently, then maybe there would more of a market for a street car or expanded Skyway system. In the meantime, buses or "trolleys" could circulate riders within the core while a street car or similar system is being developed. Whoever is in charge would just have to make sure they plan the commuter rail lines and stations in such a way that it would complement future street car (or Skyway) development.

Although I could also see the other side of the argument too...

[stjr]

Ock, you can take your limited time and energy and throw it behind a losing horse named the $ky-high-way, or you can move on and bet on a winner for the future.  I am POSITIVELY FOR choosing to move on to the better solution(s) we all know are out there.

Brings up an interesting point. Obviously there is a need a more comprehensive public transportation system here, but limited means to make that system a reality. So what is the priority here? Should focus on how people get around in the downtown area or is it more important to get people to the downtown area through commuter rail?

Buckeye, welcome.

I vote for rail mass transit connecting to Downtown as priority #1.  There aren't enough people currently in or around our downtown to support much intra-downtown mass transit presently.  Let's generate some people and then build out a complimentary system for Downtown.  I am pulling for street cars/trolleys.  It's friendly, efficient, flexible, and convenient.

In my view, the $ky-high-way was a huge mistake by every measure, will never fit in, and needs to be removed.  You don't see any new installations of these things and the cities with the most used mass transit are doing just fine with a combo of rail mass transit and street cars/trolleys/buses.  No $ky-high-ways.  There is a reason.  'Nough said. 

[Keith-N-Jax]

So we should take the skyway down? lol,, The skyway should have been extended as the original plans had called for. Taking it down will be a hugh mistake. The Skyway will always have its naysayers there's a long line of people waiting for that. The skyway already connects the North Bank to South, so when we take the skyway down, then we build a street car across the river, use trollys or do we build light right and a station. I dont see any other cities(recent) taking skyways down either. quote lets generate some people,, yeah lets do that.

[cline]

Why?  Well that brings us to your next point, consultants.  Transportation consultants have a rather notorious reputation for being far off on projections of traffic and investment dollars needed for public transit projects.  The $ky-high-way is Exhibit A with estimates for the already completed system being off over 90% after 20 years! 

So you blame consultants for being "off over 90% after 20 years" yet the consultants projections were based on the original plan for a full buildout of the system.  The system has not been built out as the original plans called for.  Obviously the projections are going to be off if the they are based on a different system than the one that was studied.  Could it be that if it was built out ridership would be more on par with the consultants projections? 

I am POSITIVELY FOR a system that serves the community at large.

Are you saying that the Skyway could not be part of a system that serves the community at large?  What if it was extended and interfaced with streetcar or light rail or bus.  What if it was part of a comprehensive transit system.  I would argue that the Skyway could be a valuable and viable part of a larger system that serves the community at large.

I don't think tearing it down would be wise at this point.

[Shwaz]

Isn't it a fact that if we were to tear it down we would owe the feds back all the money?! That'll get us a fast track to mass transit   

How successful would light-rail be if you were to say -- run a line from the beach's , Greencove, Orange Park but the stations were just short of their neighborhoods and business's in those areas? Then ran the lines to just short of downtown.

"Elevated and intimidating architecture"    You're really reaching now

[thelakelander]

About as successful as I-95 without the Fuller Warren Bridge or I-295 without the Buckman.

[Ocklawaha]

Isn't it a fact that if we were to tear it down we would owe the feds back all the money?! That'll get us a fast track to mass transit

How successful would light-rail be if you were to say -- run a line from the beach's , Greencove, Orange Park but the stations were just short of their neighborhoods and business's in those areas? Then ran the lines to just short of downtown.

"Elevated and intimidating architecture"   You're really reaching now

Every Penny would have to be refunded, not only that, but according to UTU and other Union Contracts every employee would have to be protected. I'm not sure the employment but from Lake and I walking through the center I'd say 10 to 15 professionals, electricians, mechanics, linemen, car cleaners etc. stjr would say they could be redeployed as bus drivers or some such but imagine your boss telling you this morning, "Hey, your gonna love your new job!" Factually they COULD be redeployed on a light rail system, IF we had a light rail system. Pretty much the same creature, wanna know what a real streetcar sounds like? Listen to the Skyway and add a whistle and bell.

Your point about missing the target area's or passenger producer locations is very well taken. The worst part about the Skyway story is we didn't half finish the job, considering the infrastructure, we finished 7/8 Th's of the system, then quit.
I know that Amtrak is VERY IMPRESSED with the Skyway, and in fact it, plus a streetcar might beat out the dazzle of Orlando for the Florida Terminal. They are jazzed about a City with a fixed transit system right to the door of the depot and have asked us to finish it, (stjr, Lake and I were in the meeting and both heard the reviews).

Why?  Well that brings us to your next point, consultants.  Transportation consultants have a rather notorious reputation for being far off on projections of traffic and investment dollars needed for public transit projects.  The $ky-high-way is Exhibit A with estimates for the already completed system being off over 90% after 20 years! 

So you blame consultants for being "off over 90% after 20 years" yet the consultants projections were based on the original plan for a full buildout of the system.  The system has not been built out as the original plans called for.  Obviously the projections are going to be off if the they are based on a different system than the one that was studied.  Could it be that if it was built out ridership would be more on par with the consultants projections? 

I am POSITIVELY FOR a system that serves the community at large.

Are you saying that the Skyway could not be part of a system that serves the community at large?  What if it was extended and interfaced with streetcar or light rail or bus.  What if it was part of a comprehensive transit system.  I would argue that the Skyway could be a valuable and viable part of a larger system that serves the community at large.

I don't think tearing it down would be wise at this point.

"Comprehensive System," pretty much sums up what I am speaking of. Friends? Did you know that "I" am the consultant we are speaking about? Retired (or just plain tired), I was in on this war from the start. Did you know what I told the City back in 1980? I told them this whole idea was insane, and all they were going to do is waste a ton of money and get a turkey for mass transit. In this case I don't like to be right so I am spending what energy I have left on earth, trying to fix someone elses screw up. I'm not trying to sound like Robin Hood, more like a barefoot consultant that wants to give my city the best transit system in the South. On a positive note, JTA is listening to all of us.

The best that I can redesign it is still only about 1/2 the original concept. In the early plans a huge circle went around downtown. The downtown circle was something like BAY - Main - Duval - Broad, and from that circle where 4 or 5 tap lines that reached into the hoods. There was even an incredible, signature skyway bridge over the river at about the location of the Landings courtyard. Consider that all we can do as a city is try and fix the shortsighted mistakes of past administrations all of which have taken the approach of HANDS OFF - IT WILL JUST GO AWAY GIVEN 2,000 to 3,000 years time. Today we can't even get the TU or local news to carry a story of how it "might just work."

As far as original ridership estimates go, the Skyway was all over the board. They even claimed thousands of daily riders for the fist few thousand feet. Talk about over baking the numbers! But they had this idea everyone would park down at Jacksonville Terminal and Jefferson Street and ride the "Disney" to Sears, Iveys, Furchgotts, Rosenblooms, Learners, etc. The comedy was by the time it was funded and built, there were no retails places left to go to.

You all have made excellent points:

1. Abandonment would REALLY cost us.
2. Finishing it would probably be much cheaper.
3. If abandoned the feds would likely never fund a transit project in Jacksonville again.
4. It is not a transit system, rather, it is part of a transit system and should function as such.

Point number 4 is the key to our transit future. The Skyway could be funded at 100% federal right now, as the Feds are looking for just such projects and will fund "Fixed Route Transit" at 100%.  But our time is very limited, we must ask now!

In the bigger picture, the Skyway would represent the express line in downtown. Certainly it's speed and over the traffic construction would make it quicker then ANY bus or streetcar. Meanwhile the streetcars would be slower in town and become faster once beyond the core. Ditto the BRT or Bus system. It would offer a critical choice and station stops could be programed to make it the fastest thing in downtown.


Who says our Mass Transit isn't up to par?

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

JTA is getting smarter by the day.  Literally!  This day is now Saturday, being added to Sunday, with no $ky-high-way service due to LOW RIDERSHIP.  This disaster is growing not under our feet but over our heads!  Time to face the music, $ky-high-way defenders, it's fading away.  Weekdays are next.

Ock and Lake, no advance notice on this?  I thought you were on top of JTA happenings like this!

Florida Times Union:

JTA: Bus shuttles coming for neighborhoods
Skyway to be closed on Saturdays, to run weekdays only

By Larry Hannan Story updated at 6:02 PM on Wednesday, Jul. 22, 2009

A series of changes is on the way for transportation service in Jacksonville.

The Jacksonville Transportation Authority has unveiled tentative changes to bus routes in Jacksonville that will keep larger buses out of residential neighborhoods. It also wants to discontinue Skyway service on Saturday.

Under the plans what would take effect on Sept. 7, service with the bigger, 40-seat buses that are about 35 feet long will be scaled back, and smaller, 20-seat shuttles that are about 25 feet long will be introduced into about a half-dozen neighborhoods. The smaller buses also provide para-transit service, usually called JTA Connexion.

The Skyway schedule would be cut to weekdays only because of low ridership.

These plans are tentative and could be changed. JTA will conduct two public meetings today  at the FCCJ downtown campus to get feedback.

The Times-Union spoke to JTA service planning manager Kent Stover  and JTA spokesman Mike Miller about the proposed changes.

What is JTA planning to do?

JTA will introduce shuttle service to the areas around Cecil Commerce Parkway, the Northside, Orange Park, Mandarin, Broward Road, and Southside and the Beaches. These shuttles will remain in specific neighborhoods and not go from one part of the city to another, like the larger buses do now.

One shuttle was previously introduced in 2008, in Arlington, and that has been a success. So JTA is moving forward with more shuttles.

What if a person wants to take a bus from the Beaches to Mandarin?

You will need to take the larger buses. However, each of the smaller shuttle buses will have a connection point that will allow you to get on the bigger buses. For example, the Broward Road shuttle will let people out at the Highlands Square Shopping Center on Dunn Avenue, where you can get on larger buses that will take you to other parts of town.

How much will these shuttles cost and when will they be running?

The shuttles cost the same as the regular buses: A regular fare is $1; senior citizens ride for free. You can also purchase a monthly pass for $40, a weekly pass for $12 and several discount booklets. For an extra 50 cents, you can call ahead and the bus will deviate from its route to take you to another location, assuming it’s not too far off of the existing route. You must call JTA at least two hours before getting on the bus for this to happen.

Will any existing bus routes change?

Six existing routes will see modifications. Most of these modifications will keep the bus routes out of residential neighborhoods. For example the B-6 route on the Westside now ends at the FCCJ Cecil Center. Because a shuttle will be operating in that area as of Sept. 7, the B-6 route will now end at Old Middleburg Road and 103rd St.

Other routes that will see modifications are the AR-3 in Arlington, NS-2 and NS-14 on the Northside and the SS-6 and SS-8 on the Southside. All the modifications will be detailed at today’s public meetings.

What about the Skyway?

The Skyway will stop operating on Saturdays after Sept. 5, except during special events. The people mover now runs from 1-7 p.m. on Saturdays, but JTA has decided to discontinue Saturday service because of low ridership. It does not run on Sundays and now will operate only on weekdays from 6 a.m. to 9 p.m.

How can people give feedback on this before Sept. 7?

JTA will be taking feedback at today’s meetings. If the community opposes any part of this plan, JTA will look into making changes before Sept. 7. People who cannot attend these meetings can also contact JTA by calling 630-3153 or by e-mailing Kent Stover at kstover@jtafla.com.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-07-22/story/jta_bus_shuttles_coming_for_neighborhoods

[tufsu1]

JTA is getting smarter by the day.  Literally!  This day is now Saturday, being added to Sunday, with no $ky-high-way service due to LOW RIDERSHIP.  This disaster is growing not under our feet but over our heads!  Time to face the music, $ky-high-way defenders, it's fading away.  Weekdays are next.

maybe they are trying to starve the system out of existence...its the same mindset some our local, state, and Federal elected officials have.