JTA Skyway Riverside Extension

[thelakelander]

Seems like it.  With more limited service it should be expected that ridership will continue to drop.  So where will it end?  What is the overall goal?  Does JTA even know?

[thelakelander]

JTA is getting smarter by the day.  Literally!  This day is now Saturday, being added to Sunday, with no $ky-high-way service due to LOW RIDERSHIP.  This disaster is growing not under our feet but over our heads!  Time to face the music, $ky-high-way defenders, it's fading away.  Weekdays are next.

LOL, you may be right.  Ridership will continue to decrease.  I will say to JTA, if the goal is to kill it, go ahead and get it over with.  No need to drag things out.

[stjr]

Wow, Ock talk about being NEGATIVE. .  Today, the board is chock full of it.  Let's take a look:

So we should take the skyway down? lol,, The skyway should have been extended as the original plans had called for. Taking it down will be a hugh mistake. The Skyway will always have its naysayers there's a long line of people waiting for that. The skyway already connects the North Bank to South, so when we take the skyway down, then we build a street car across the river, use trollys or do we build light right and a station. I dont see any other cities(recent) taking skyways down either. quote lets generate some people,, yeah lets do that.

Despite your attempt to rewrite history, the $ky-high-way has been BUILT AS A COMPLETED SYSTEM per original plans and the projections that are off 90% were based on the system AS IT IS without benefit of more changes.  How many times do you want to buy swamp land in Florida or a bridge in New York or a $ky-high-way in Jax?  Over time, the big money is in operating the thing, not building it, so ABANDONMENT could easily be the CHEAPEST option.

So you blame consultants for being "off over 90% after 20 years" yet the consultants projections were based on the original plan for a full buildout of the system.  The system has not been built out as the original plans called for.  Obviously the projections are going to be off if the they are based on a different system than the one that was studied.  Could it be that if it was built out ridership would be more on par with the consultants projections? 

Are you saying that the Skyway could not be part of a system that serves the community at large?  What if it was extended and interfaced with streetcar or light rail or bus.  What if it was part of a comprehensive transit system.  I would argue that the Skyway could be a valuable and viable part of a larger system that serves the community at large.

I don't think tearing it down would be wise at this point.

See my comment above about the 90% OFF projections being based on the CURRENT system, not one being proposed here.  Advocating for the $ky-high-way with the wrong FACTS is why we have this fiscal fiasco to begin with.  You are just perpetuating the problem with your fallacious arguments.

You missed my point on serving the community at large and failed to address my own comments about its value if it were interconnected.  It will NEVER serve the community at large because, even with interconnections, it is not user friendly, cost effective, the best option, etc. and won't be adopted in our life times by the community at large because most add this up as a USELESS adventure.  Thus, the community at large will not support it.  Don't believe me?  Watch the outcry when someone in authority proposes expanding it.

Isn't it a fact that if we were to tear it down we would owe the feds back all the money?! That'll get us a fast track to mass transit  

"Elevated and intimidating architecture"   You're really reaching now

I asked before for someone to post the source and details of the alleged federal payback.  Still waiting to see this information.  If true:  First, even the Feds don't expect something to last forever so there has to be a depreciation schedule.  Second, this was an "experiment" that has failed in three cities, so surely we could beg the Feds to forgive any such rules today.  Why should we be subjected to continued failure at our local expense?

"Elevated and intimidating" - Well, unless you can't see, it's clearly elevated.  "Intimidating" is my association with something that is ugly, imposing, cold (as in concrete), and unfriendly.  I would imagine many architects and lay people would find this an apt description.  I guess you find it "warm and fuzzy"?  OK with me.  To each their own.

About as successful as I-95 without the Fuller Warren Bridge or I-295 without the Buckman.

Not quite so fast Lake.  Again, the $Ky-high-way is presently built as what was deemed to be a "complete" and "self sustaining" system in its CURRENT CONFIGURATION.  Maybe there was a wish for a future expansion, but it wasn't deemed necessary to build what is there now.  By the way, countless roads in Jax have been well utilized before being expanded and/or interconnected.  In fact, heavy use is the biggest reason given for more roads.  Can't say that about the $ky-high-way.  (See today's article posted above.)

Every Penny would have to be refunded, not only that, but according to UTU and other Union Contracts every employee would have to be protected. I'm not sure the employment but from Lake and I walking through the center I'd say 10 to 15 professionals, electricians, mechanics, linemen, car cleaners etc. stjr would say they could be redeployed as bus drivers or some such but imagine your boss telling you this morning, "Hey, your gonna love your new job!" Factually they COULD be redeployed on a light rail system, IF we had a light rail system. Pretty much the same creature, wanna know what a real streetcar sounds like? Listen to the Skyway and add a whistle and bell.

Ock, per my comments above, still waiting to see the source and details on this Fed agreement for payback.  The protection of jobs, if true as well, would further support critics of our public servants being poor fiduciaries of the public's money.  This is ridiculous.  Even GM union workers lose their jobs when the plant closes for good.  No sympathy from my quarters.

Your point about missing the target area's or passenger producer locations is very well taken. The worst part about the Skyway story is we didn't half finish the job, considering the infrastructure, we finished 7/8 Th's of the system, then quit.
I know that Amtrak is VERY IMPRESSED with the Skyway, and in fact it, plus a streetcar might beat out the dazzle of Orlando for the Florida Terminal. They are jazzed about a City with a fixed transit system right to the door of the depot and have asked us to finish it, (stjr, Lake and I were in the meeting and both heard the reviews).

Ock, again, it's a COMPLETE system as built.  That doesn't mean expansion couldn't be considered, but it wasn't supposed to be necessary to support what already exists.  Remember, the projects are off over 90% AFTER 20 years of trying to reach them for the EXISTING system.

"Comprehensive System," pretty much sums up what I am speaking of. Friends? Did you know that "I" am the consultant we are speaking about? Retired (or just plain tired), I was in on this war from the start. Did you know what I told the City back in 1980? I told them this whole idea was insane, and all they were going to do is waste a ton of money and get a turkey for mass transit. In this case I don't like to be right so I am spending what energy I have left on earth, trying to fix someone else's screw up. I'm not trying to sound like Robin Hood, more like a barefoot consultant that wants to give my city the best transit system in the South. On a positive note, JTA is listening to all of us.

Ock, we AGREE.  You were 100% right 20 years ago.  No need to second guess yourself today.  Your original position about this being "insane" has been VINDICATED beyond anyone's wildest dreams.  Quit while your are ahead (even though the taxpayers are behind  ).  Can't always save the world and right every wrong.  Let's work together on something more worthwhile.  The list is long and the benefits far greater.

The best that I can redesign it is still only about 1/2 the original concept. In the early plans a huge circle went around downtown. The downtown circle was something like BAY - Main - Duval - Broad, and from that circle where 4 or 5 tap lines that reached into the hoods. There was even an incredible, signature skyway bridge over the river at about the location of the Landings courtyard. Consider that all we can do as a city is try and fix the shortsighted mistakes of past administrations all of which have taken the approach of HANDS OFF - IT WILL JUST GO AWAY GIVEN 2,000 to 3,000 years time. Today we can't even get the TU or local news to carry a story of how it "might just work."

As far as original ridership estimates go, the Skyway was all over the board. They even claimed thousands of daily riders for the fist few thousand feet. Talk about over baking the numbers! But they had this idea everyone would park down at Jacksonville Terminal and Jefferson Street and ride the "Disney" to Sears, Iveys, Furchgotts, Rosenblooms, Learners, etc. The comedy was by the time it was funded and built, there were no retails places left to go to.

Ock, again "we" listened unquestioningly to the the EXPERT CONSULTANTS.  If they couldn't properly project things before, what makes you think they are any better now?  Systems all over the country regularly fall far short of EXPERT traffic projections.  They are motivated by fees, as I see it, not giving the best answer.  It's just the corruption of money.  We can't fix it.

You can't get attention for expansion because, as I have said repeatedly, this community DOES NOT WANT the $ky-high-way.  Next to the Courthouse, the $ky-high-way is a community JOKE - an example of being sucker punched, fooled, and folly.  Sorry, you and so many others can't stand back and see that.

You all have made excellent points:

1. Abandonment would REALLY cost us.
2. Finishing it would probably be much cheaper.
3. If abandoned the feds would likely never fund a transit project in Jacksonville again.
4. It is not a transit system, rather, it is part of a transit system and should function as such.

Points made, but not supported, proven, or substantiated.  Mostly, made in defiance of COMMON SENSE.

In the bigger picture, the Skyway would represent the express line in downtown. Certainly it's speed and over the traffic construction would make it quicker then ANY bus or streetcar. Meanwhile the streetcars would be slower in town and become faster once beyond the core. Ditto the BRT or Bus system. It would offer a critical choice and station stops could be programed to make it the fastest thing in downtown.

Ock, we don't need an EXPRESS line Downtown.  Heck, you can walk from one end to the other in a 15 or 20 minutes, far shorter than waiting for and riding the $ky-high-way.  Certainly, not worth spending millions to take a couple of minutes off a short walk or street car/bus/trolley ride.  These other transits Downtown might be slower, perhaps (depends on distance and route), because they would stop in far more places making it far more flexible and convenient.  The real EXPRESS would be rail mass transit to the suburbs.  

[stjr]

JTA is getting smarter by the day.  Literally!  This day is now Saturday, being added to Sunday, with no $ky-high-way service due to LOW RIDERSHIP.  This disaster is growing not under our feet but over our heads!  Time to face the music, $ky-high-way defenders, it's fading away.  Weekdays are next.

LOL, you may be right.  Ridership will continue to decrease.  I will say to JTA, if the goal is to kill it, go ahead and get it over with.  No need to drag things out.

Lake, thanks for owning up to this.  This has been my point consistently.  It's beyond saving - resource-wise or politically.  Fortunately, we can move on with far better options and the sooner we focus on them, the better.  Stimulus money awaits us!

[Keith-N-Jax]

Rewrite history, wow you went out on that one thanks anyway though. And yes lets move on, lets see what JTA and city has in store for us. Cant wait.

[thelakelander]

JTA is getting smarter by the day.  Literally!  This day is now Saturday, being added to Sunday, with no $ky-high-way service due to LOW RIDERSHIP.  This disaster is growing not under our feet but over our heads!  Time to face the music, $ky-high-way defenders, it's fading away.  Weekdays are next.

LOL, you may be right.  Ridership will continue to decrease.  I will say to JTA, if the goal is to kill it, go ahead and get it over with.  No need to drag things out.

Lake, thanks for owning up to this.  This has been my point consistently.  It's beyond saving - resource-wise or politically.  Fortunately, we can move on with far better options and the sooner we focus on them, the better.  Stimulus money awaits us!

I still believe it can be improved, I'm just not so sure those in charge of it can get it done.  It just seems like every move being made, makes a bad situation worse.

[stjr]

KUDOs to the JTA on the idea of mini neighborhood buses/shuttles.  This thought has occurred to me before.  I think this could prove to be a strong feeder into the longer intra-city runs and acclimate locals to using the buses and other mass transit.  I hope they run them with frequent and rational schedules and routes to help insure their success.  Can we say "Downtown trolleys gone wild!"?  

Best JTA idea in a very long time, IMHO.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Mini buses and shuttles to neighborhood, yeah right. We will see. Thank god I have a car.

[Ocklawaha]

We haven't ran an article on it as this news is about a year old. Lake and I were in on the planning and meetings for this new effort. Actually it is nothing more then true community bus service which will be based on the venues in each distinct neighborhood or section of town. Your bus will go to YOUR Wal-Mart, your Walgreen's or CVS, your doctor, your church, your ball park etc. It will also connect with the regular buses for cross town trips. When fully deployed, it should be a very nice system of jitney shuttles and trunk lines. With the big buses no longer having to run serpentine long crazy routes through every neighborhood, we can close headways, streamline routes, and make the whole cross town thing much, much, faster. I certainly give JTA high marks for boldly stepping out into this new concept.

OCKLAWAHA

[Abhishek]

My reply from another article:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5610.msg88002.html#msg88002

Marinating this creates an idea to increase the proposed Skyway extension to go all the way to the Publix in Riverside, build a station on top of the Publix building etc. That will make grocery shopping so much easier for a lot of people in Springfield, Downtown and San Marco. It will also increase shopper traffic between the Riverside Arts Market and Five Points.

stjr's Reply:

How many people do you think would carry arm loads of heavy grocery bags to an elevated platform, cram into a "bus" ride for 15 to 25 minutes (with stops) across town with the bags smooshed in their lap, elbow their way out of the "bus", ride the escalator down, and walk several blocks or more to their homes?  And, by now, their ice cream is melted, the frozen food is half thawed, the condensation in the heat has soaked through the paper bags, and the rider is exhausted.

When a family shops together and enough for a week's worth of groceries, it can easily fit in back packs. That takes the load off one's arms. Escalators help in not having to climb while carrying heavy bags. I have seen folding carts all over Washington DC that people stow away their groceries into and walk several blocks. I carry an insulated bag to the grocery store with a reusable ice pack in it for the ice cream and meat. The return journey from Publix is around 30 mins with stops along the way on my bike and I dont live in a very walkable part of town.  http://www.sheksfootprint.com/archives/262

Moreover, with news such as this it is about time people started getting exhausted performing every day errands.
http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2009/07/florida_children_just_keep_get.php 3
It will become second nature after doing it for a few weeks.

Despite its success to date and its connection to the Riverwalk, so few people care to ride the $ky-high-way to access the riverwalk a block or two from some of its stations, that JTA just eliminated Saturday service.

Since the stretch of Riverwalk to get to RAM from the existing Skyway stations is long, it is not a very popular route to walk to RAM. A bicycle would complement the stretch of commute from the closest Skyway station to RAM but they don't allow bikes on board. Therefore, few people care to ride the Skyway to the RAM. RAM has no effect on the ridership of Skyway on Saturdays because it is an inefficient mode.

There is a couple who ride their bikes from the south bank to the RAM and have been unable to convince their neighbors to do the same. I know because I have parked their bikes for them. Their neighbors probably drive. Having a Skyway station closer to RAM and extending out to a place of shopping, namely Five Points, will definitely make riding the Skyway on Saturdays very popular.

[Ocklawaha]

Sydney AU

stjr, your constant negative campaign against the Skyway starts turning personal when you lump all transit consultants, planners and even dreamers into an evil empire of money grabbing thieves. "Unsupported" numbers or attention to details:

Ock, again "we" listened unquestioningly to the the EXPERT CONSULTANTS.  If they couldn't properly project things before, what makes you think they are any better now?  Systems all over the country regularly fall far short of EXPERT traffic projections.  They are motivated by fees, as I see it, not giving the best answer.  It's just the corruption of money.  We can't fix it.

Moscow Russia

Might as well say, if we abandon the thing, or quit before build-out, then WE are guilty of sending a spread of torpedo's through the Skyway, fore, aft and midships. For example, how many knew that Baptist, Shands and St. Vincents, were all rabid supporters of the Skyway. They designed a special train (2 cars?) to move patients with severe medical problems between the hospital centers.

There was a time when I went face to face against every Skyway proponent, but after $200 Million dollars, I can see the folly of taking it down. It would cost us just as much (ballpark) to rip it down as it would to extend it to San Marco, Stadium, Riverside and Shands. All of these destinations would be just a short extension from what we have today. No transit system can travel from Nothing to Something and survive. We must have traffic producers. I would go right back into the battle against the darn thing IF we started talking about Airport, NAS/Yukon, Orange Park, Mandarin, expansion. So considering it is here to stay what can we as concerned citizens and retired transportation consultant do to fix it, with the least expense. Taking it down would also put us on the FTA's shortlist for Federal Funding refusals.

I'm not even sure we need double track on the extensions, and we certainly don't need a bridge deck, concrete walled people-mover track with a monorail on top of it. What would the travel time be between Brooklyn Station and Riverside at Blue Cross? Round trip would take what? 8-9 minutes? With a train of 4-6 cars, 10 minute headways on the single tracked expansions would work wonders.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

stjr, your constant negative campaign against the Skyway starts turning personal when you lump all transit consultants, planners and even dreamers into an evil empire of money grabbing thieves. "Unsupported" numbers or attention to details:

Ock, most professions have developed stereotypical impressions, fairly or unfairly, based on an accumulation of notable and/or notorious events, characterizations, or incidents.  It's not right to use the term "going postal" but it's used.  Lawyers have more biting jokes about their profession than any other probably.  Accountants are thought to wear "green eye shades" and computer jocks are portrayed as "geeks" with pencil holders in their shirt pockets.

As a professional, one needs to develop a thick skin and stay focused on the job without falling for distracting disparagements that would affect mere mortals doing said job. That's one quality that makes one a professional within a given occupation.

That said, every profession has its better and not so good practitioners.  Transit consultants, planners, etc. are no different.  No doubt there are plenty of standouts in the profession but there are also those that will stoop for the lowest dollar.

I believe, based on my observations, that consultants who prepare traffic studies for government projects generally do a poor job of coming up with anything close to accurate projections (incompetence, uninformed assumptions, poor sourcing or misinterpretation of data, or, gasp!, a strong desire to satisfy the preconceived conclusions made by their repeat fee-paying clients who thrive on the building of the project they are trying to justify).  How many public projects are canceled by the results of a consultant's report? Nothing personal, just my beliefs.  90% discrepancies after 20 years fan my flames.

As I said before, my campaign about the $ky-high-way is actually quite POSITIVE for our community, especially in the eyes of most citizens of Jax that view it as the fiasco it has become.  Its only fair to characterize the proponents then as being NEGATIVE to the position of our suggestions to improve mass transit in Jax.  See, its all in the eye of the beholder.  P.S. Calling my comments "negative" could be deemed to be personal, you know.  No worry, I am a "professional" basher of this project so I can handle it. 

Might as well say, if we abandon the thing, or quit before build-out, then WE are guilty of sending a spread of torpedo's through the Skyway, fore, aft and midships. For example, how many knew that Baptist, Shands and St. Vincents, were all rabid supporters of the Skyway. They designed a special train (2 cars?) to move patients with severe medical problems between the hospital centers.

If I were a hospital getting a "free" multimillion dollar "patient transporter" to my door, why wouldn't I support it.  No sweat off my back if it fails.  This support mirrors people here who also want a "transporter" to their door without concern for costs per ride to the taxpayers.  Such "un-invested" commitments aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

How were these patients going to be transported to the $ky-high-way for the "ride of their life"?  Was the $ky-high-way supposed to zoom through the emergency room to get these patients?  And, really, how many patients would be transported this way?  And, at what ridiculous cost per ride?  This is a real BIG stretch to justify the $ky-high-way.  Not surprised this didn't get past even the most optimistic supporters at the time.

There was a time when I went face to face against every Skyway proponent, but after $200 Million dollars, I can see the folly of taking it down. It would cost us just as much (ballpark) to rip it down as it would to extend it to San Marco, Stadium, Riverside and Shands. All of these destinations would be just a short extension from what we have today. No transit system can travel from Nothing to Something and survive. We must have traffic producers. I would go right back into the battle against the darn thing IF we started talking about Airport, NAS/Yukon, Orange Park, Mandarin, expansion. So considering it is here to stay what can we as concerned citizens and retired transportation consultant do to fix it, with the least expense. Taking it down would also put us on the FTA's shortlist for Federal Funding refusals.

Ock, I "feel your pain".  Once again, it may (or maybe not) cost as much to expand it as to tear it down (this is a hard assumption for me to accept without detailed proof), but, if so, it doesn't cost taxpayers anything to OPERATE it once its torn down whereas it drains us indefinitely if its expanded.  That would be OK too if it was the best of all options, but it simply isn't.  Let's subsidize something that is far more effective in delivering mass transit.

[heights unknown]

Even though the system is primarily elevated at present, how about making it "ground level" after leaving downtown/urban core; I know what y'all are thinking...what purpose does that serve?  Well, everyone's complaining that the Skyway is basically a failure and it should have been maybe a rail system at ground level.  Maybe making it ground level after leaving the urban core would make it more appealing and accessible to the public. Though ridership is low downtown if we brought it "down to earth" so to speak, maybe people would be more apt to ride it.

Listen people...the thing is built and exists.  I agree with Ock in that if we tear it down, that will be viewed in a negative vain and as wasting money (which it would be), in which we probably would not be granted any money in the foreseeable future for any other projects similar to the skyway; so the smart thing to do, as we used to say in the Navy, is make smart and sensible use of available resources though they may be outdated or austere.

Heights Unknown

[Joe]

You can't make the skyway ground level. Monorails have to be grade-separated because they have a big concrete "rail" that can't be crossed by cars or even pedestrians. Go ride the skyway and take a look out the windows. You'll quickly see why it can't be done.

What you could do is rip out the monorail and install streetcar tracks on the oversized skyway infrastructure. They you could take it to ground level after leaving downtown.

But even then, it might be just as expensive to retrofit the skyway tracks and stations as it would be to just demolish the thing and replace all of it with downtown streetcars. Much to stjr's dismay, we'd have to hire consultants to figure that out.

[cline]

Ock, I "feel your pain".  Once again, it may (or maybe not) cost as much to expand it as to tear it down (this is a hard assumption for me to accept without detailed proof), but, if so, it doesn't cost taxpayers anything to OPERATE it once its torn down whereas it drains us indefinitely if its expanded.  That would be OK too if it was the best of all options, but it simply isn't.  Let's subsidize something that is far more effective in delivering mass transit.

So say we decide that we are going to spend X millions of dollars and tear down the Skyway.  If we do this we have just spent money to eliminate a mode of transit that could be a viable component of a comprehensive transit system.  I think everyone here agrees that the Skyway, in its current state, is not a viable form of transit.  However, if money were spent to expand it could have a positive impact on our City and transportation system as a whole.

I believe, based on my observations, that consultants who prepare traffic studies for government projects generally do a poor job of coming up with anything close to accurate projections

Feel free to list any traffic studies that you have "observed" that would support your theory.  You state that the projections that the consultants came up with for the Skyway were inaccurate however, those numbers were based on a larger, built-out system.  The current Skyway does not reflect this system.