Re-evaluating the Skyway

[Doctor_K]

If they would just extend this thing to some places that matter... I.E. The sports complex, Metro park and San Marco. You would be surprised how fast ridership would go up. Every time I'm in Jax with someone new, I have to bring them on the skyway. Everyone Loves it and wishes they had one in their city! Jax HAS one, Just make it GO SOMEWHERES! Just my 2 cents!

Amen and heck yes! 
1. Down to Everbank/Fidelity
2. Extend to Jackson Square, after
3. Extend to San Marco Square/Atlantic Blvd.
4. Down Bay Street w/ a stop near the Mark's strip/Berkman, then A. Phillip Randolph & the Sports complex.

Hell, just extending the thing down Bay Street to the stadium/complex would quintuple the ridership numbers in one year.

[civil42806]

Blow it up and be done with it

[lindab]

Blow it up and be done with it

I couldn't agree more!  It is a blight, expensive to build, not easy to use, and leads some folk to believe that Jacksonvillites are anti-rail when really we are anti-Skyway. 

[tufsu1]

Blow it up and be done with it

I couldn't agree more!  It is a blight, expensive to build, not easy to use, and leads some folk to believe that Jacksonvillites are anti-rail when really we are anti-Skyway. 

minor point...its ALREADY BUILT!

[mtraininjax]

We could dismantle it and use it all to build up the offshore reefs, then it would have more ridership from car to car in fish than it ever had in people! :-)

[Dapperdan]

Blow it up and be done with it

The only problem with that is since this thing was almost entireley built with federal money, if we demolish it, we have to pay back all the federal money which is hundreds of millions of dollars. So, as you can see, this is not an option. Hopefully it will be built out and we can grow into it.

[JeffreyS]

Try to remember the most expensive part is done. 

[stjr]

Blow it up and be done with it

The only problem with that is since this thing was almost entirely built with federal money, if we demolish it, we have to pay back all the federal money which is hundreds of millions of dollars. So, as you can see, this is not an option. Hopefully it will be built out and we can grow into it.

Just because the Fed's paid most of it doesn't mean it has to stand forever. At some point, it could be torn down.  We are going on over 20 to 25 years of this fiasco.  Enough is enough.  It was a Federal experiment that failed and we should not have to continue it on.  I am sure Corrine Brown and other politico's could unwind any such obligations if they even really exist (I have never heard this pay back position from official sources).  Further, it may be cheaper to pay off any such debt than have us locals pay $4 to $5 million a year in subsidies and suffer the indignity of its blight on Downtown.  And, I agree with others, the $ky-high-way has played a major role in turning Jax citizens off of rail mass transit.  That is perhaps its biggest "cost".

Ironic, that a city that is so relentlessly efficient in tearing down its beautiful historic structures and history wouldn't have the fortitude to tear down its real white elephant!

[Doctor_K]

Two questions are raised at this juncture:

1.  Why are detractors so hell-bent on taking this thing down?
2.  If it ever comes to pass that it's extended, to actual destinations, and the ridership does indeed increase, would the detractors still be hell-bent on tearing it down?

[stjr]

Two questions are raised at this juncture:

1.  Why are detractors so hellbent on taking this thing down?
2.  If it ever comes to pass that it's extended, to actual destinations, and the ridership does indeed increase, would the detractors still be hellbent on tearing it down?

Dr. K, to answer your questions, you must first appreciate the long and sordid history of manipulation, lies, misstatements, contrived studies, overestimates, political arm twisting, hollow promises, wishful thinking, misplaced hopes, etc. that were used to get the $ky-high-way pork barrel project WRONGFULLY built to begin with.  This same folly of a process was AGAIN utilized to EXPAND it once before only to again FAIL miserably.

Now, once you understand this history, you can appreciate that any and all arguments and processes currently proferred today for yet ANOTHER extension have ALL been previously made to get us into the hell hole mess already built.  So, why should we fall in the same trap a third time?  Cost and traffic estimates for potential extensions will once again prove to be pure speculations designed to get said extensions built at any cost and will defy all common sense and reality.  Once extended, these extension advocates will be nowhere to be found and the taxpayers will be hung with more decades of multimillion dollar subsidies of an enlarged albatross no one really wants to keep.

Dr. K, the real question you should be asking is why are the proponents so hellbent on not only saving the $ky-high-way, but making the problem worse by expanding it?  Don't miss my point that a dollar spent on the $ky-high-way is a dollar or more taken from other mass transit projects.  The $ky-high-way has also served to drain all the political capital of other mass transit projects from this community.  A true lover of mass transit would desire a prioritization of funding for those projects that give us the most bang for the buck.  In other threads, we have long ago established that the $ky-high-way system ranks at the bottom of cost effectiveness.  There is only one answer to all these questions:  Get over it and move on.

[cline]

Dr. K, the real question you should be asking is why are the proponents so hellbent on not only saving the $ky-high-way, but making the problem worse by expanding it?

The Skyway, in its current state, is pretty much going to be relegated to failure for its entire existence.  However, I don't think tearing it down is the answer.  If the Skyway were expanded AND integrated into a comprehensive transit system it could be very successful.  Right now it is somewhat isolated.  If it could be tied into another system (streecar, for example), I think that it would be quite a benefit to our city.  Especially if it was extended to the stadium.   

[tufsu1]

Just because the Fed's paid most of it doesn't mean it has to stand forever. At some point, it could be torn down.  We are going on over 20 to 25 years of this fiasco.  Enough is enough.  It was a Federal experiment that failed and we should not have to continue it on.  I am sure Corrine Brown and other politico's could unwind any such obligations if they even really exist (I have never heard this pay back position from official sources).  Further, it may be cheaper to pay off any such debt than have us locals pay $4 to $5 million a year in subsidies and suffer the indignity of its blight on Downtown.  And, I agree with others, the $ky-high-way has played a major role in turning Jax citizens off of rail mass transit.  That is perhaps its biggest "cost".

Except that there are very few "local" dollars being spent on the Skyway....funding for operations and maintenance comes from State and Federal funding formulas....so even if the thing is torn down, the money gets spent anyway....BY/FOR ANOTHER CITY!

[stjr]

Just because the Fed's paid most of it doesn't mean it has to stand forever. At some point, it could be torn down.  We are going on over 20 to 25 years of this fiasco.  Enough is enough.  It was a Federal experiment that failed and we should not have to continue it on.  I am sure Corrine Brown and other politico's could unwind any such obligations if they even really exist (I have never heard this pay back position from official sources).  Further, it may be cheaper to pay off any such debt than have us locals pay $4 to $5 million a year in subsidies and suffer the indignity of its blight on Downtown.  And, I agree with others, the $ky-high-way has played a major role in turning Jax citizens off of rail mass transit.  That is perhaps its biggest "cost".

Except that there are very few "local" dollars being spent on the Skyway....funding for operations and maintenance comes from State and Federal funding formulas....so even if the thing is torn down, the money gets spent anyway....BY/FOR ANOTHER CITY!

Tufsu, two thoughts:  One, can you cite a source for the formula and/or specific origin of the subsidies showing local versus outside funding you refer to, and two, can you address the question of whether that same outside money could be redirected to subsidizing other, more cost effective, mass transit projects in Jax rather than be redirected elsewhere?

Thanks.

[Doctor_K]

Stjr:
I'll redirect the question in a similar vain back to you. 

If we can establish a rail network, as has been proposed/seen on other threads within this forum, that included the Skyway into the overall network and thus made it instantly relevant, would you still want to tear it down?

[tufsu1]

Stjr...transit operations funds come from many sources...and can be spent in many ways...so yes, the $ being spent on the Skyway could be shifted to other mass transit like buses, light rail, streetcar, etc.

Just remember that we have to find the capital money to build the new systems first.