Re-evaluating the Skyway

[stjr]

Yes, I read that.  I wonder if that's what they are telling the mass transit TRAINS, STREETCARS, FERRIES, etc. in other cities that run game day shuttles?  What a joke.  Of course, I wonder if it would be cheaper with a private company.  I guess we may find out soon.  Maybe BO will revise the rule as part of supporting mass transit agencies.

P.S.  Another possible cost of the $ky-high-way is moving utilities (water, sewer, storm water, electric, gas, phone, fiber, etc. that interfere with column and station placements).  This, alone, could run into millions per Downtown mile.

[civil42806]

the problem with the JTA buses is that they aren't allowed to run them anymore...you can thank GWB and his administration for changing the rules such that public companies must let private suppliers offer the service first (at whatever cost they deem necessary).

thats sort of changed

http://www.jaguars.com/news/article.aspx?id=7885

[Gen7]

I would like to see the skyway extended to some of these places as well.  In a previous life I parked at Prime Osborne and rode the Skyway - tickets were included in the parking price.  I currently walk about 4 blocks to work, because I would have to back track to get to the Rosa Parks Station. 

If the FBC parking garage between Julia and Hogan was opened to the public and an elevated walkway built across Union Street to the Rosa Parks Platform that would make it very easy to ride the skyway to the government center. 

If that's not an option, i.e. if FBC is not agreeable, perhaps a city-owned garage built between Union and State with coffee shop, visitors center, etc. on the ground floor. 

It might not make a huge difference today, but when the courthouse is completed, all the court staff, public defender, state attorney, and law offices will move to this area and ridership could really increase.  Jurors for county and federal court could also be encouraged to use it.   

[tufsu1]

the problem with the JTA buses is that they aren't allowed to run them anymore...you can thank GWB and his administration for changing the rules such that public companies must let private suppliers offer the service first (at whatever cost they deem necessary).

thats sort of changed

http://www.jaguars.com/news/article.aspx?id=7885

glad to see...maybe no private companies were interested

[Ocklawaha]

At $20 a person, I'll just pile a few family and friends in the car and pay the $25 to $30 parking fees near the stadium or walk for 30 minutes from a cheaper lot (i.e. that comes to $20 an hour for a short walk and a little exercise!).  Besides, what's wrong with the buses JTA has been running for 70% less!  Maybe a few more parking garages at the stadium/arena area would be a far more efficient use of investment capital than the $ky-high-way.  That, too, needs study.  We could connect them to Downtown for week day use with a street car line for a lot less hassle and costs with better results.

Even at $15 million a mile (A very speculative and probably unrealistically low number - heck, we will pay the consultants that much before even bidding the damn thing   ) and 10,000 riders a game (I doubt this could even be handled by the $ky-high-way in a 30 to 60 minute pregame or postgame crowd crunch), by the time you deduct maintenance and operations, it likely will just ramp up the current losses.  Don't forget, the support columns may wipe out a full lane of traffic to and from the stadium.  I am sure Wayne would love that "improvement".  And, the required "intersection" with the Hart Bridge ramps needs to be engineered as well as crossing Hogan's Creek.

Lastly, the question that $ky-high-way proponents continue to miss:  How does the greater Jax community benefit from this football fan fantasy ride?  Good luck selling it at the ballot box.

Stjr, jump on "The Monorail Society" and check out the systems offered, look into the amusement park builders and check their prices (they built the Disney system, busiest Monorail in the World). Look up the subject of Monorail vs LRT, while I don't agree with 100% of it there is enough there to open some wide holes in the anti-Skyway argument.
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/MonoVs.html

I personally had a builder of concrete beam Monorails call me and nearly choke on the $30 Million a mile number I tossed out, to paraphrase him: "Robert that kind of number from these rail builders make me angry..."

$10 bucks per game, 10 times a year, and 10,000 riders per game, next come up with a number, certainly more modest for commuters daily: perhaps 2,000, next add in the income from the Baseball Grounds, Arena, Fair Grounds, Metropolitan Park, The Kids Corner or the budding Randolph restoration district. I believe this 1.5 mile extension would more then triple the annual ridership and with $10 (Football) or $5 (other) venue fares it would increase the income many times over.

Won't handle the traffic? I have talked with Bombardier and our own in house planner at JTA. The system is designed (with the unordered center cars) to handle 30,000 Passengers Per Direction Per Hour PPDPH. Certainly not a stadium full, but darn near 1/2 a stadium, with others arriving on bus shuttles or by car. Hey the rest of us can even wave to you as we watch you creep along Bay Street to the game... Don't worry, we'll hold your seat.



The bus rule HAS NOT CHANGED and it didn't come from GW. It was a court ruling not unlike another back in the 1970's that killed the JTA charter business. Back then schools could charter JTA to take the kids to the Cape or St. Augustine field trips. Same deal here, there are thousands of bus operators out there and we have a couple of heavy weights here in town. Expect JTA will lose this business after this year, they asked for and got a temporary deal for this year, but I doubt it will last. Yes the privates are interested, 3 or 4 are on record already. I'd cheer for Annett, in my opinion the best of the best. http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/1020/annett/index.html


The old TECO slogan said it all, "Always A Car In Sight".

As for Streetcars, or Sky Cables, since they run on very close headways the order would exempt them as they would NOT be running charters, just regular schedules.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Compare this track view in Las Vegas with our overbuilt mess. Let's bust it out and get it done, stretching both dollars and track. Also note how the station is CONNECTED to the building and garage.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

$10 bucks per game, 10 times a year, and 10,000 riders per game, next come up with a number, certainly more modest for commuters daily: perhaps 2,000, next add in the income from the Baseball Grounds, Arena, Fair Grounds, Metropolitan Park, The Kids Corner or the budding Randolph restoration district. I believe this 1.5 mile extension would more then triple the annual ridership and with $10 (Football) or $5 (other) venue fares it would increase the income many times over.

Ock, I won't dismiss all your valiant efforts to support the continuation of the $ky-high-way because THEORETICALLY you may have some points.  However, I don't think they can survive REALITY.  Let's take the above estimates.  For $5 for an entire car, I can find lots of parking for the "other venues", so why would I pay that PER PERSON to take the City's amusement ride.  And, where will I park to get on it - in another lot charging $5.  There is ample parking for all events at the Arena/Sports complex except for the Jags, Florida/Georgia, or other sold out stadium events.  For those events, at about $25 for a car, I think I can find plenty of parking in decent walking distance.  For $7 a person, I can ride the current bus arrangement from the greater downtown stops with little hassle.  Why do we need another solution to the present arrangements that work fine?

As to 2,000 daily commuters for the extension, the ENTIRE system doesn't get that many riders with the last number discussed being 1,700 riders.  Why would this leg add that many during a weekday?  Keep in mind the over 90% traffic estimate misses by the "experts" on the EXISTING COMPLETED line.

Here is another question:  If you expand the system with the monorail configuration you advocate, is it compatible with the existing rail?  Or, do we need to rebuild the entire system over?  Also, are the cost estimates you keep proposing comparable situations to ours?  i.e. built through developed downtowns with lots of cross streets, sidewalks, close-in buildings, underground utilities, existing traffic lanes, rivers, highway overpasses, etc.?

[Coolyfett]

More skyway talk:

I overheard an interesting converstation on the Skyway during the Jazz Fest.  A group of suburbanites saying the following:

- Although they had lived in Jax for a few years, it was the first time they had used the Skyway.

- "I would ride it to work, if it went somewhere." This guy mentioned he worked at Fidelity on Riverside Avenue.

- It loses money because JTA gave up on it.  If anything they should at least extend it to the stadium.

- A constant apples to apples comparison with St. Louis light rail, Chicago's El and NYC's Subway.

I wonder if this is the general outlook towards the skyway in Jacksonville?

Man. Lake I used to say the same thing when I first got on this site, a lot of people from Jacksonville have never rode it. That would Change if Riverside, Springfield & San Marco Square had stations. Im telling you man. Jta should do it for those neighborhoods. As far as the Sports Complex, thats a no brainer. They need to finish the Skyway and then work out deals with the surrounding land with developers. No more SJTCs off of JTB, when you have that land by Jefferson Station waiting for something. The just need to finish it. Stop thinking small, and finish it.

[Coolyfett]

Of course it is Lake!  Haven't we been arguing for a couple years now that everyone wishes it connected the people with the destinations instead of just destination to parking garage.  I live in Springfield and so many of my neighbors work downtown, Riverside or on the Southbank.  Everyone of them in past conversations have said they would love to ride it to work everyday if they could.  We all would have taken it to Jazz Fest this past weekend if there was a station that came a little farther into Springfield.  As it is now, we drove because with the possibility of rain the 1 mile walk to Rosa Parks didn't sound like a good idea.  We would take it to RAM any day over driving, but we are forced to drive.  The "We would have..." examples are endless but as it sits now there is no access to where people live and other high volume destinations.

This is very true, I was never even interested in the Skyway until I started driving cabs, being that I lived in Riverside, I would catch fares from the area, many riverside residents went to San Marco, Downtown or Springfield a lot, I mean I would just do circles of those  4 areas during both rush hours. I never used the Fuller Warren, the Main Street and Acosta was the quickest way in and out of those spots, my fares would always say that "The Jta train needs to go here or there" Thats what got me curious in it in the first place. The last station was built in 2000, my first time riding it was 2007, so there you go.

[Shwaz]

For $5 for an entire car, I can find lots of parking for the "other venues", so why would I pay that PER PERSON to take the City's amusement ride.  And, where will I park to get on it - in another lot charging $5.  There is ample parking for all events at the Arena/Sports complex except for the Jags, Florida/Georgia, or other sold out stadium events.  For those events, at about $25 for a car, I think I can find plenty of parking in decent walking distance.  For $7 a person, I can ride the current bus arrangement from the greater downtown stops with little hassle.  Why do we need another solution to the present arrangements that work fine?

There aren't many events that you can pay only $5... and not everybody going to the Jags games has a full car.

Say you park in the garages next to the arena for only $5 -  have you ever sat in traffic leaving those? If you're not lucky enough to be parked on the ground level I hope you packed a sandwich.

Personally I go to the Jag's games with just my dad, we park downtown (for free) and walk the 1.5-2 miles over for free. I would gladly pay $5 for the skyway vs. walking over in summer heat or pay $25-$30 to park .5 -1 mile away and be stuck in traffic after the game. I have had a parking pass a few times for the games and found I can walk back to my spot on Liberty and get home much sooner than parking at the stadium.

Even where I park for free around Liberty St. there are $10-$15 all around me. The lot's are for getting there early and tailgating not so much just a "parking spot." 

[Steve]

My thoughts - a Sports Complex extension would not generate riders for events in the Sports Complex, EXCEPT for Stadium events, as stated above.  I love the Skyway, and I wouldn't use it for a Suns Game or a concert, but I'd consider it for a Jaguar game.  However, this is 10 games a year, plus FL-GA, Gator Bowl, Monster Truck Rally, and let's throw in even two more random games.  This is 15 days a year.  I don't know if I can justify it for this.

This is why I think that the Shipyards discussion has to play into this somehow.  I think with something at the Shipyards that could potentially draw people, then it could be in the discusion.  Without that, I'm not sure that I can.

[thelakelander]

I wonder if the bars on Bay Street, Hyatt, Kids Kampus or Metropolitan Park would generate riders?  Anyway, I do agree that any talk of extending the skyway to the stadium will rely heavily on what goes up on the Shipyards site and takes the place of the county courthouse.

[hiddentrack]

My thoughts - a Sports Complex extension would not generate riders for events in the Sports Complex, EXCEPT for Stadium events, as stated above.

Let's not forget that we also have baseball games at the Baseball Grounds, concerts at the Veterans Memorial Arena, and (possibly) improvements to Kids Kampus that may bring new visitors to Metro Park. I think the hope is that by extending transportation to the sports complex, it would also generate additional development in the area. Many other cities have a lot of development surrounding these types of venues (see http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-mar-salvaging-the-big-idea-i-kids-kampus-flex-space). We should take advantage of all that opportunity.

[Steve]

I agree, it is all a part of it.  However, the most that the suns have ever gotten is 13,000.  The existing roads and parking handle that no problem.  Parking costs $5 a car.  I live in Orange Park (not really, just go with the example).  Why would I drive 20 miles to Kings Avenue or the Convention Center, to then use the Skyway?  My guess is that JTA would not give their parking away, so the cost to park plus Skyway fare would probably work out to close to the $5.

[Shwaz]

A lot of people attending the weekday games work downtown and head over straight from the office. I'm sure all most all of them would rather leave their car behing and travel with their group via skyway. I don't think it would be the same inflated charge like for the Jag's games... maybe $1 each way.