Re-evaluating the Skyway

[Doctor_K]

And:  15 events per year, plus the marginal numbers from the downtown-work crowd riding it over to the Baseball grounds, would mean *way* higher ridership numbers-per-year than what we've got now. 

I think we're starting to split the hairs too finely here.  The bottom line is ridership numbers, yes?  All of these implementations/wishful-thinking extensions will push that figure $ky-high, as stjr likes to say. 

[Shwaz]

And:  15 events per year, plus the marginal numbers from the downtown-work crowd riding it over to the Baseball grounds, would mean *way* higher ridership numbers-per-year than what we've got now. 

I think we're starting to split the hairs too finely here.  The bottom line is ridership numbers, yes?  All of these implementations/wishful-thinking extensions will push that figure $ky-high, as stjr likes to say. 

Exactly.

At 1700 riders per day / 620K per year @ .50 = $310,250
Jag's games estimate 100K fares per season @ $5 = $500,000

That seems to be a $ky-high increase in revenue too

[CrysG]

I agree, it is all a part of it.  However, the most that the suns have ever gotten is 13,000.  The existing roads and parking handle that no problem.  Parking costs $5 a car.  I live in Orange Park (not really, just go with the example).  Why would I drive 20 miles to Kings Avenue or the Convention Center, to then use the Skyway?  My guess is that JTA would not give their parking away, so the cost to park plus Skyway fare would probably work out to close to the $5.

That's what some people do with the Jags games currently. They load the buses at Kings Avenue and the Convention Center. If the skyway were to be extended to the stadium people would use it. I'd use it for sun's games as well. 

[Coolyfett]

I wonder if the bars on Bay Street, Hyatt, Kids Kampus or Metropolitan Park would generate riders?  Anyway, I do agree that any talk of extending the skyway to the stadium will rely heavily on what goes up on the Shipyards site and takes the place of the county courthouse.

Hyatt I am not so sure about, but the Riverfront District and Metro Park would get riders, Id also include the Friday Night and Saturday Night Suns games as well. Most Friday and Saturday night games were over 7000 in attendance, I never been on Thursday beer night, but was told it gets packed like Fri-Sat games. I don't know much about the Kid Kampus thing as far as night riders. East leg would connect Riverfront Distrist with Hemming Plaza and The Landing easily, they really should look into finishing that East Line.

[Coolyfett]

I agree, it is all a part of it.  However, the most that the suns have ever gotten is 13,000.  The existing roads and parking handle that no problem.  Parking costs $5 a car.  I live in Orange Park (not really, just go with the example).  Why would I drive 20 miles to Kings Avenue or the Convention Center, to then use the Skyway?  My guess is that JTA would not give their parking away, so the cost to park plus Skyway fare would probably work out to close to the $5.

Anyone coming from the far out skirts should just drive to the Complex, but people at Riverplace Station could benefit, also people after work could benefit. The Skyway is just AN option, shouldn't be THE option for every fan though.

[Steve]

^Even if all of those units had people, that is about 600 residential units.  Assuming 2.5 kids (which highrise condos don't get) that is 1500 people, or about .2% of Jacksonville.  Seems a bit expensive to me to build it for that.

Bottom line, it wouldn't make sense until we have at least one transit arm extending to a residential neighborhood.

[Ocklawaha]

Original Quote by Ocklawaha:

$10 bucks per game, 10 times a year, and 10,000 riders per game, next come up with a number, certainly more modest for commuters daily: perhaps 2,000, next add in the income from the Baseball Grounds, Arena, Fair Grounds, Metropolitan Park, The Kids Corner or the budding Randolph restoration district. I believe this 1.5 mile extension would more then triple the annual ridership and with $10 (Football) or $5 (other) venue fares it would increase the income many times over.

Ock, I won't dismiss all your valiant efforts to support the continuation of the $ky-high-way because THEORETICALLY you may have some points.  However, I don't think they can survive REALITY.  Let's take the above estimates.  For $5 for an entire car, I can find lots of parking for the "other venues", so why would I pay that PER PERSON to take the City's amusement ride.  And, where will I park to get on it - in another lot charging $5.  There is ample parking for all events at the Arena/Sports complex except for the Jags, Florida/Georgia, or other sold out stadium events.  For those events, at about $25 for a car, I think I can find plenty of parking in decent walking distance.  For $7 a person, I can ride the current bus arrangement from the greater downtown stops with little hassle.  Why do we need another solution to the present arrangements that work fine?

STJR, Please understand I would NEVER have built the damn thing to start with, big mistake, HUGE! But we have an investment in a Federal Demonstration project that the current administration would probably fund under one of the stimulus packages. I'd rather they spend it here then in Bull Frog Nevada. (a real place BTW) So I'm NOT a big fan of the Skyway but have come to love it like my love for my own Confederate Heritage... So get this y'all, not a fan of the Skyway, but a professional at making these type of things work.

For those "Other" venues we would have to do a revenue test, an experiment to see if a $5.00 parking garage entry + Skyway coupons would attract riders. It's not so much the parking for the Suns or Concerts, etc... as it is the time and hassle that we could sell. Frankly $5.00 or even $3.00 beats the hell out of .50 cents. Another case of do the math and estimate the ridership with pilot program shuttles (such as a street with cones to seal it off to all but JTA shuttle buses then run the buses like the Skyway to test the market... BRT style).

As to 2,000 daily commuters for the extension, the ENTIRE system doesn't get that many riders with the last number discussed being 1,700 riders.  Why would this leg add that many during a weekday?  Keep in mind the over 90% traffic estimate misses by the "experts" on the EXISTING COMPLETED line.

The original traffic estimates started at 60,000 riders per day, and changed to 30,000, then 17,000, then 10,000, then 5,000, and finally we hit almost 4,000 REAL riders a day at .35 cents a trip. Then we nearly doubled the fare and POOF, back to 1,700 a day for a net loss of about 300 in both ridership and revenue. But those original estimates were for a completed system, something we never even got 50% of. We simply have sent the Skyway out on a mission to run the race with one tennis shoe. I am confident that connections to buildings, shops, vendors, and a REAL marketing effort could more then double the Skyway ridership, and triple the income at the least.

Here is another question:  If you expand the system with the monorail configuration you advocate, is it compatible with the existing rail?  Or, do we need to rebuild the entire system over?  Also, are the cost estimates you keep proposing comparable situations to ours?  i.e. built through developed downtowns with lots of cross streets, sidewalks, close-in buildings, underground utilities, existing traffic lanes, rivers, highway overpasses, etc.?

Expansion as I encourage will be 100% compatible with the current monorail system. The Cost estimates came from REAL vendors who know the system, and as we already OWN the right-of-ways, it is an easy build. Ever wonder why Riverside Avenue has that wide median? SKYWAY. Ever wonder why the new Bay Street plan has a huge walk on the South Side of the Street? SKYWAY. Also as Lakelander proposed, taking it lower or even to ground level in certain places would make it much cheaper to build, just remember NOTHING can cross it's path when it's on the ground.

Hope this answers the questions.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

^Once you get east of Marsh Street (Maxwell even faces Marsh), there is no real reason to turn north until you reach Philip Randolph.  That's roughly a four block stretch that also gets you under the Hart Bridge ramps.  Dropping the thing down to grade level there would save a ton of money on infrastructure costs.

[Ocklawaha]

Thanks Lake, I hadn't even looked at Marsh on the map, but something with cool freeway back lighting, Neon or strobes would be more cool then all of South Beach... (Okay, well maybe not, but close).

OCKLAWAHA

[Steve]

Question - while it might save money, if you bring it down to Grade Level, how does one get across the thing?  Let's say you brought it down to grade after Marsh St.  Do you just not get across after that?

[Ocklawaha]

Steve, there is NO safe way to cross a monorail track at grade level. The track could be at grade for a length or elevate 8' feet in order to clear a pedestrian crossing, higher for an auto underpass. The whole at grade segment would have to have a safety fence, which would then be hidden with either decorative walls or plantings. This is why early on I suggested doing this only at end point stations where the track could decend to a platform level that was the same platform used by buses or streetcars. This type of transfer is called a cross-platform-transfer. As soon as the trains cleared the station they would climb right up to normal height. But Lake has a great point about the Hart Expressway, it would make for a cheap and quick duck under.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Once you pass Marsh, there is no reason to cross north, assuming an at-grade portion runs on the north side of Bay Street.  Maxwell House is a solid wall.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Even though I would like for the skyway to be extended, but you dont need to ride the skyway because you have to drive into downtwon to attend any event. When I go to the Jags game I park downtown and walk to the game. I would like not to even have to drive to far from my neighborhood, but we are no way near any possibilites like that. When have drive into town why park and ride the skyway when youre just a few miles from your destination. When I lived in ATL I never left my neighborhood to attend any events downtown.

[thelakelander]

^Even without commuter rail, if we had an Amtrak corridor service, you could park your car at the Avenues or Orange Park and take the train into downtown where you could then transfer to the Skyway.  Thus, why we have made enhanced Amtrak service a key priority in the establishment of rail transit in Jacksonville.

[Keith-N-Jax]

I agree all must come together and work as one. I am for it, but,,,