Springfield Trolley - going forward

[Ocklawaha]

Thanks Lake, that was a great follow-up piece.

Ock, you're a bit late to this thread, and I do hope someone goes back to the old threads and can find where the claim was made that PCTs or busses will bring economic growth to Springfield.

Believe it or not, TheLakelander, Stephendare, Lunican, Springfield Girl and myself have all heard people in Springfield all giddy about "We're getting trolleys!" Lakelander and yours truly have spoken to the subject over and over. Fact is we've all heard it from certain folks in Springfield, SPAR and as I said to Lakelander, I heard a couple of guys at Samba trying to explain to me just how cool the new "PCT'S" will be. It certainly doesn't malign any of these groups just because they DON'T understand the core of the argument. I recently had a friendly discussion with one of the stars of San Marco (the book store) who informed me "We already had a JTA trolley, but it was no good because it couldn't cross the tracks when a train was around so nobody could depend on it for lunch hour trips... We Don't need Trolleys!" Try as I might, this person is typical of Jaxon's everywhere, they just don't get it, and in many cases they refuse to try.

But I don't think anyone from Springfield, SPAR, or SAMBA has indicated PCT or busses will bring any assured amount of economic development, or made a comparison with the economic development probable around fixed transit. If someone can find these claims in earlier posts/threads, then your point is made (again). If not, how about the maligning of these groups for positions not taken stop?

In my reading of this thread, the discussion is not "Which will spur more economic growth, PCT or fixed rail?" as this has been settled. It's not even which is "better" as I believe most in Springfield - yes, even including the folks at orgs you mention (Springfield Girl and Lakelander, for example) - agree the ultimate solution would be fixed.

No, the argument is what can we do now, today, to make a transport between Shands and the new Condos on Main as well as downtown work. My argument is the PCT is not the vehicle for this. While they are equipped with kneeling abilities, the high entry and multilevel floor  isn't suited to hospital shuttles... So send Em to the Beach and get a REAL low floor, multi-entry bus.

So it seems there is no real argument at all, other than the all or nothing one. Do Springfielders want nothing for the next 5-8 years while waiting for JTA to get its streetcar act together (under pressure from Ock and others at metrojacksonville.com - thank you!), or do Springfielders want a less-stigmatized, more community-compatible way to connect with downtown in the shorter-term, and still hope to get streetcar someday?

Not 5 or 6 years, but tomorrow it is possible to have smooth, quiet, low floor, electric buses on this route. The current new Gillig buses JTA drives are pollution efficient, even so, they pollute at a rate equal to 65 automobiles. Chattanooga uses a splendid little electric bus fleet and it is being used by a couple of major universities to constantly improve this option. Did you know that UNF is "America's Transportation University?"  "A program of EXCELLENCE."

The typical PCT, anywhere in America, starts out strong, then when the honeymoon is over, their numbers crash. Springfield has the residential density for bus or rail (of any kind), I hope JTA gets the support it's going to need to validate this route, but aside from "bridge traffic" (Bridge Traffic = traffic not to or from any point on the line but moving over the line between the end points - usually  forwarded from other routes). I don't see a bright future along Main or 8Th until TRUE vintage streetcar brings the new developments in.

I'm for the cake-and-eat-it-too option, or if they go with the Lay's design, the chips-and-eat-it-too...

PCT'S have your chips and eat them too? Love it! Can we use this in our next JTA meeting?


OCKLAWAHA

[fsujax]

Who knows maybe JTA will try a new technology for the Springfield service.

[cline]

I don't see a bright future along Main or 8Th until TRUE vintage streetcar brings the new developments in.

So basically, you're saying that the only way this area is going to be revitalized is if there is a "TRUE" vintage streetcar?

[thelakelander]

While eating at Waffa & Mikes last night on the courtyard, Main felt like a completely different place.  We were having a good time outside, Shanytown's courtyard had people enjoying themselves next door and the loft across the street was lite up, as the new tenant was preparing to open his upscale salon in the space.  Being in that environment you could really feel the potential of Main being a true urban destination.

I agree with Ock that a "true" streetcar line with help take development to the next level.  I would describe the "next level" as compact new construction infill development.  However, in the meantime, with a little coordination and embracing what's already there, there is no reason Main's bright future can't become reality immediately.

[zoo]

I very much like the idea of electric and no/less dust and fumes.

However, Springfield is a National Historic District. It already has the same designation as Riverside/Avondale. Ultimately, when more restoration is completed, the community might like to be able to promote this and become an economic/tourism asset for the entire city.

The only reason anyone is excited about PCT's is because of how they look -- this matters to those who are invested AND live in the community. Is there an electric vehicle that will fit in the historic context of the community? If there isn't, I'll still come down on the side of PCT's, not because they bring superior technical function/service, not because it is the best vehicle for the neighborhood long-term (fixed rail streetcar, right?), not even for the chips, but because they FIT in this "place". And that is what Springfield is trying to become... a community with a fully-developed, and fully-supported, sense of place.

My next comments are not directed at Ock and Lake in a personal way. They are directed at the many other persons I encounter regularly in advocating for Springfield that think they have a right to determine what is best for the community, from social service providers, to Councilmembers, city/transit planners, to regional planning/architectural organizations and professional groups, to persons responsible for economic development in Jacksonville, and on, and on. Everyone has an opinion about what is best for Springfield.

Well, I live here, and work here, and am here every day for much of the day, and I am sick of people who don't live in this community foisting their opinions about what they think is best for it on those living here. I may not know what is best for it, so I'm happy to hear and entertain opinions, and do a fair amount of research and investigation on my own. But in the end, I and other Springfield residents have more of a right to an opinion than someone living in St. Johns county, or Southside, or the Beaches, or Tallullah, or San Jose.

Here's my shot at answering some of Lake's questions:

Anyway, I have a few more questions about this plan that should help get the discussion back on track.

1. Where will the stops be located? I don't think JTA has determined this yet, and will wait until the FDOT grant is approved before getting community input?

2. What is the ultimate goal? To move residents to downtown and to different ends of commercial areas; to move FCCJ, church and downtown workplace to new Springfield commercial; to move Proton Beam patients to and from their temporary housing to the Proton facility, and to move anyone else that wants to pay $.50 to get anywhere between the two end points for any reason, except to "sleep it off" in air conditioning. BTW, Ock, don't know if your low-floor issue is the result of the presumed Proton Beam focus, but the proton treatment means patients don't have special transportation accessibility, or dietary, needs.

3. Has there been any discussion between using electric shuttle buses vs. the PCT?  If so, what are the pros and cons between the modes? More "green" options have been brought up here and there, but I don't know if they have been investigated recently. Though there is ridership support, but rarely financial support, I suspect one of the cons to electric may be cost -- perhaps JTA can verify this? Another con is stigma and placemaking conflict of just another bus.

4. Earlier SAMBA was mentioned.  What type of support/marketing promotions are you looking for from the Springfield business community? How about funding? If any of the SAMBA businesses truly believe they are going to see an increase in traffic, then contributing in public-private partnership to make it happen is an investment in future sales. If it's about buying marketing "eyeballs" that can be discussed, but not a single Springfield area business has made a penny commitment to this effort at this time.

5. Will this system rely only on Springfield, DT and Shands for ridership?  Or will it be integrated with other bus lines to ensure decent ridership numbers? I believe JTA's plans for this route do include modifying some of the existing bus routes that use the Main St. corridor between 1st and 8th (it seemed there were quite a few other routes using that stretch last time I checked). This will not be fully determined at the time of FDOT grant submission.

6. Will this be a temporary demonstration project or something set up to stay long term? Depends on ridership and funding. The initial project is a 2-year project. If it can be funded twice, that ought to be just about enough time for the streetcar route to be investigated, planned and maybe kicked off/implemented.

Residents, speak up!!!

[Ocklawaha]

The Streetcar Lofts in Portland are just a tiny part of 5 Billion dollars worth of new investment along the line.

I was here in 1980 and the "next big boom" was going to be Springfield. Ditto for 1990 and now, 2009 we're still waiting. Certainly the neighborhood has a great fabric and a much higher income then it did back in the day, but San Marco or Riverside it is not. At least not yet. Some of this fault can be laid at the city's feet. The near cleansing of Main of every attraction, shop or restaurant. Busting every business that makes an attempt at party time - bet this wouldn't happen in Epping Forrest or Queens Harbour.

As you can see, I'm not against Springfield, as a Jaxon Cracker, this is home and I love all of it and have lived in most of it! IE: Ortega, Ortega Hills, Orange Park, Grand Crossing, Dunn Ave, Callahan, Mandarin, Arlington, Intercoastal, Regency... and may be buying a new place in World Golf Village! So not to speak poorly of Springfield, please understand that I think with so much of the business strip owned by absent lazie faire land Barron's, it is going to take something big to jolt Springfield to life. I'm not talking about the everyday life such as Wafaa's and Mikes, or the VA clinic, I'm talking about a full blown remake in the image of 1919. To do this the only tool (besides Disney or NASA moving to Springfield) that I can think of is my beloved true - Vintage -Streetcar. I would even compliment this with connector buses that are being made now, that are doubles of the early 1920's buses. This would cause a storm of new investment and a community remake.

OCKLAWAHA

[zoo]

At least not yet. Some of this fault can be laid at the city's feet.

It's not San Marco or Riverside, and I don't think any resident wants it to be.

Just because Springfield aims to be a community with a sense of place based on historic framework, doesn't mean it wants to be Riverside. There's already a Riverside, and for that matter a St. Augustine, and a Savannah, and a Charleston. There are some things Springfield can do like these great historic places - contextually appropriate transit, for example - and some things it will have to do differently.

Fault in the past is irrelevant and over. Fault forward falls on those who keep focusing on the negative when saying what they think Springfield is (in many, but not all, cases erroneously), and on those who say what Springfield isn't while making little attempt short of wishing on fairy dust to change it at the street level.

Optimism, action and money -- that's my wish on fairy dust...

[thelakelander]

I very much like the idea of electric and no/less dust and fumes.

However, Springfield is a National Historic District. It already has the same designation as Riverside/Avondale. Ultimately, when more restoration is completed, the community might like to be able to promote this and become an economic/tourism asset for the entire city.

Economic/tourism asset through a faux trolley?  Please explain so I can better understand your vision?

The only reason anyone is excited about PCT's is because of how they look -- this matters to those who are invested AND live in the community. Is there an electric vehicle that will fit in the historic context of the community? If there isn't, I'll still come down on the side of PCT's, not because they bring superior technical function/service, not because it is the best vehicle for the neighborhood long-term (fixed rail streetcar, right?), not even for the chips, but because they FIT in this "place". And that is what Springfield is trying to become... a community with a fully-developed, and fully-supported, sense of place.

This statement in general raises a good question.  What is Springfield trying to become?  Is the things mentioned above your opinion or a general consensus of residents living in the neighborhood?  Like you, I'd really like to hear what other Springfield residents have to say on this issue.  Knowing what the community desires will help with the development and marketing of the final project.  

As for investing and living in the community, personally, I don't live there (not because of peference, I'm just stuck with an unsalable Southside condo right now) but I am a property owner who has just as much money and time invested in the area as any typical person invested or living in Springfield.  If things work out in the future, I could also end up living on my property in Springfield.  Also, what happens on Main directly impacts the retail and living possibilities of my future spaces and my existing tenant.  Because of this, I'd say this is just as important to me as someone who may live in the neighborhood.

My next comments are not directed at Ock and Lake in a personal way. They are directed at the many other persons I encounter regularly in advocating for Springfield that think they have a right to determine what is best for the community, from social service providers, to Councilmembers, city/transit planners, to regional planning/architectural organizations and professional groups, to persons responsible for economic development in Jacksonville, and on, and on. Everyone has an opinion about what is best for Springfield.

Well, I live here, and work here, and am here every day for much of the day, and I am sick of people who don't live in this community foisting their opinions about what they think is best for it on those living here. I may not know what is best for it, so I'm happy to hear and entertain opinions, and do a fair amount of research and investigation on my own. But in the end, I and other Springfield residents have more of a right to an opinion than someone living in St. Johns county, or Southside, or the Beaches, or Tallullah, or San Jose.

See my answer above.  I'm just as invested in Springfield as the typical resident.  If this means getting involved in the planning and design process (my educational background), to make sure all pros and cons are properly evaluated then so be it.  After all, we all want something thats going to work as a final product, regardless of individual opinions on what that product should be.  Imo, it would be hypocritical for me not to participate in the discussion of something that can help the community when its an issue I specialize in for a living.  This is nothing personal, its just reality regardless of any individual's personal opinion.  Also, don't take what anyone says as the Bible.  Look it up, challenge it and provide examples of other options if there is something you may not agree with.  Back and forth dialouge is a typical process that all projects should go through in the planning stages.  Having community dialouge is a great thing that no one should get sick about.  It helps ensure successful implementation of the final product.

2. What is the ultimate goal? To move residents to downtown and to different ends of commercial areas; to move FCCJ, church and downtown workplace to new Springfield commercial; to move Proton Beam patients to and from their temporary housing to the Proton facility, and to move anyone else that wants to pay $.50 to get anywhere between the two end points for any reason, except to "sleep it off" in air conditioning. BTW, Ock, don't know if your low-floor issue is the result of the presumed Proton Beam focus, but the proton treatment means patients don't have special transportation accessibility, or dietary, needs.

Hopefully we can add existing business community and other Shands facilities to the mix.  The more the merrier, in terms of transit ridership.  If other Shands facilities come into play, Ock's low-floor issue may be worth taking a deeper look into.

3. Has there been any discussion between using electric shuttle buses vs. the PCT?  If so, what are the pros and cons between the modes? More "green" options have been brought up here and there, but I don't know if they have been investigated recently. Though there is ridership support, but rarely financial support, I suspect one of the cons to electric may be cost -- perhaps JTA can verify this? Another con is stigma and placemaking conflict of just another bus.

This is something worth hashing out with further discussion.  Studying existing examples across the country may reveal some insight that we may all be overlooking.

4. Earlier SAMBA was mentioned.  What type of support/marketing promotions are you looking for from the Springfield business community? How about funding? If any of the SAMBA businesses truly believe they are going to see an increase in traffic, then contributing in public-private partnership to make it happen is an investment in future sales. If it's about buying marketing "eyeballs" that can be discussed, but not a single Springfield area business has made a penny commitment to this effort at this time.

To be honest, it may be too early in the game to ask or expect funding from the existing business community on conceptual idea not fully hatched out.  Most of our small businesses are struggling to stay afloat and SAMBA is an organization with limited resources and manpower at the moment.  However, as a plan becomes better organized and promoted, if business owners can see a financial benefit for them in the product, anything is possible.  A good example of this is in Detroit, where the business community is funding a +3 mile starter light rail line 100% between Downtown and New Center.  With local cooperation the 8-20 years for rail, fsujax mentioned earlier in this thread, just got slashed to 2 or 3 because they don't immediately need FTA funding.  A little creativity and dialouge in this process could result in better transit (both bus and rail) becoming a quicker reality in Jax as well.

Residents, speak up!!!

I agree.  Anyone else should speak up too.  Springfield can't isolate itself from the rest of the community and expect to support things like this on its own.  If you work in DT, Shands, own property, a business in the area, purchase goods or use services in the area, bike, ride mass transit or whatever, all dialouge should be considered as valuable during the planning process.

[Ocklawaha]

I very much like the idea of electric and no/less dust and fumes.

However, Springfield is a National Historic District. It already has the same designation as Riverside/Avondale. Ultimately, when more restoration is completed, the community might like to be able to promote this and become an economic/tourism asset for the entire city.

The only reason anyone is excited about PCT's is because of how they look -- this matters to those who are invested AND live in the community. Is there an electric vehicle that will fit in the historic context of the community? If there isn't, I'll still come down on the side of PCT's, not because they bring superior technical function/service, not because it is the best vehicle for the neighborhood long-term (fixed rail streetcar, right?), not even for the chips, but because they FIT in this "place". And that is what Springfield is trying to become... a community with a fully-developed, and fully-supported, sense of place.

Because Springfield is a National Historic District would they allow me to create a new front to my house out of Cheap Plywood, and Rubber, as long as it kind of - sort of - looked like a funky historic front? What about metal sheeting? What about painting the side to "look like" it has windows? Doors?

This is what everyone in Springfield is getting with the PCT. Cheap Plywood, Rubber Tires, metal sheeting and Paint... Folks it's JUST ANOTHER BUS, but the worse part is since it IS REALLY built on a potato chip truck frame and engine, it rides more like a Turnip Wagon then a real bus. I just don't see the "FIT" with Springfield, it's almost as bad as building a super modern MC Donalds at the corner of 4Th and Walnut, or 6Th and Silver. These things are very poor copies of the real streetcars and anyone who has been on both will walk away from your newly promoted "attraction" with the taste of CHEAP still fresh in their mouths. Ever eat at a McDonalds? Ruths Chris? They are both restaurants but to say they are both fine restaurants would be a lie.

The following is the results of surveys in the NYC Transit system, using a host of different low floor models:

PREFERENCE FOR SPECIFIC BUS FEATURES

For each pair, which item would you prefer?

Forward-facing seats 80%
Side-facing seats 17%
 
Large Window Size 68%
Conventional Window Size 30%
 
Windows that slide open 72%
Windows that flip down at top 25%
 
Wheel chair ramp 75%
Wheel chair lift 22%
 
Wheel chair ramp in rear door 63%
Wheel chair ramp in front door 33%
 
1 rear door near middle of bus 83%
1 rear door at very back of bus 15%

If we really want Springfield to get bus service on a dedicated route, stay away from the poor ride quality of the PCT and let's try and get JTA to embrace the newest things in the bus industry, Low Floor, walk in buses. Even if not for the Proton Folks, the Low Floors should be on every route that serves a medical center.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Because Springfield is a National Historic District would they allow me to create a new front to my house out of Cheap Plywood, and Rubber, as long as it kind of - sort of - looked like a funky historic front? What about metal sheeting? What about painting the side to "look like" it has windows? Doors?

I don't mean to get you going Mr. Trolley Monster (Ock), but are you describing something like this?





The Historic Commission would tar and feather you.

[fsujax]

I would suggest that if any citizen of Jacksonville wants real, steel on steel streetcars they go to a city council meeting and demand the Jacksonville City Council allow JTA to use the money set aside in BJP for rapid transit ROW purchase to be spent on other things like building a streetcar line.

[Ocklawaha]

You got it Lake, only none of them have the big gold letters on the side that say "HOUSE" so everyone will know what the hell they are supposed to be. We don't paint "BUS" on the side of the JTA vehicles, presumably because we all know what a bus is supposed to look like. We don't paint "HOUSE" on the side because we should be able to figure it out ourselves... But the PCT?  " T R O L L E Y " "Oh THATS what it is supposed to be, it's so cute I'd bet 100,000 tourists would come to see it..." Shine On Team!

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I would suggest that if any citizen of Jacksonville wants real, steel on steel streetcars they go to a city council meeting and demand the Jacksonville City Council allow JTA to use the money set aside in BJP for rapid transit ROW purchase to be spent on other things like building a streetcar line.

I would second this recommendation!

[Ocklawaha]

I would suggest that if any citizen of Jacksonville wants real, steel on steel streetcars they go to a city council meeting and demand the Jacksonville City Council allow JTA to use the money set aside in BJP for rapid transit ROW purchase to be spent on other things like building a streetcar line.

I'm onboard, I wonder if we could get SPAR, SAMBA and RAP to do the lobby foot work that we haven't covered yet.



OCKLAWAHA

[fsujax]

Nice photoshop work, Ock!