Streetcars Coming to Downtown Jacksonville?

[stjr]

I don't think this is ambitious enough, especially if it represents a long-term master plan.  In fact, I don't recall ever seeing here a master plan for the ENTIRE First Coast region showing rail, streetcar, bus, and the dreaded skyway all in ONE interconnecting grid.   Is there such a plan that indicates, long term, how the WHOLE region will someday be interconnected?  (see my comments below for examples).  I think the first thing the public will do is say is "What plan is there to someday connect my neighborhood?".  This vision is critical to gaining long term public/political support.

Also, shouldn't street cars service high density residential, not just commercial, and tie the two area types together?  If so, early phases should be considered to run down Beaver Street to at least Stockton, run down Stockton to Riverside Ave. and return Downtown.  You would pick up lots of residential (multiple income levels to broaden support as well), the Farmers Market, St. Vincents, the Cummer, nodes with I-10 (at Stockton), I-95 (at Beaver), and both North/South railroads (at Beaver) and East/West railroads (at Stockton) if mass rail ever comes along and everything in between.

I am thinking about the street cars in New Orlean's Garden District as an example.

If you want more 24 x 7 use, I think we need to connect more than just office buildings to ferry workers to lunch and parking.  More residential would do that.

Longterm, I could see street cars running to Avondale/Ortega/Lakeshore, Hendricks/San Jose/Lakewood, St. Nicholas/St. Augustine Road to University, Beaver Street to McDuff/Edgewood/Commonwealth, and Myrtle/8th Street.  The mass rail could go the longer distances terminating at Orange Park/Green Cove Springs, Mandarin/ St. Johns County/St. Augustine, Airport/Yulee/Fernandina, Cecil/Normandy, Callahan, Baldwin, etc.   Maybe one day, even the old Beach rail could be returned down Beach (with a cross connect transit system to Arlington/Regency) or Bulter Blvds.  Now that would be real urban system.

[JeffreyS]

Stjr you will enjoy many of the mass transit articles posted here.

[tufsu1]

STJR....the plan you are looking for is the North Florida TPO Long Range Transportation Plan....the update to it, Envision2035, is currently underway....it includes roads, transit, and bike/ped projects.

The vision will be delineated as both a Needs Plan and a Cost feasible Plan and should be finihsed next fall.

[Joe]

This looks like a really neat study. I look forward to reading it in full detail later. At first glance the options to 5 points are nice; however the proposal seems to still reflect the same "connecting nowhere to nowhere" problem that has plagued the skyway.

So the projected cost is $65 million for 4 lane-miles (i.e. two miles total)? Cincinnati's proposed streetcar is estimated for over $100 million for the same distance. What gives?

I don't recall ever seeing here a master plan for the ENTIRE First Coast region showing rail, streetcar, bus, and the dreaded skyway all in ONE interconnecting grid.   Is there such a plan that indicates, long term, how the WHOLE region will someday be interconnected? 

Stjr, go to the "First Coast MPO" website to view the transportation master plans for the entire First Coast Region. Also, be prepared to have a heart attack. There isn't a real plan for interconnecting the entire region with transit. However, they have amazingly extensive plans for even more highway projects, including an outer beltway.

[thelakelander]

Cincinnati's proposal is extremely expensive for a streetcar line.  Portland's initial streetcar system was built for $11 million/mile, Little Rock's came in at $8 million/mile and Memphis' Madison Avenue line came in at $12 million/mile.

This looks like a really neat study. I look forward to reading it in full detail later. At first glance the options to 5 points are nice; however the proposal seems to still reflect the same "connecting nowhere to nowhere" problem that has plagued the skyway.

One of the main complaints about Tampa's TECO streetcar line is that it does not serve the transit needs of local residents.  We should not seek to repeat the same mistake with any phase of any rail project (commuter rail, light rail or streetcar).  If this mistake is made again, it will be difficult to push for expansion (ie. TECO streetcar, Jax Skyway).

To successfully implement a regional rail plan, each phase should be planned to attract a diverse amount of ridership.  They should also tap into different markets to attract continuous around the clock ridership.  What's shown clearly misses major office complexes (Fidelity, BCBS, Everbank, etc.) and does not stretch into one dense residential neighborhood. 

The loops (couplets) are also questionable.  Personally, I prefer stretching lines out as far as possible.  Get rid of the couplets and you can probably stretch the line into residential areas of both Springfield and Riverside for the same price.  Also, the Five Points couplet has three blocks between the two one way only lines.  The effectiveness of couplets fall when they are more than one block apart.

[thelakelander]

I don't think this is ambitious enough, especially if it represents a long-term master plan.  In fact, I don't recall ever seeing here a master plan for the ENTIRE First Coast region showing rail, streetcar, bus, and the dreaded skyway all in ONE interconnecting grid.   Is there such a plan that indicates, long term, how the WHOLE region will someday be interconnected?  (see my comments below for examples).  I think the first thing the public will do is say is "What plan is there to someday connect my neighborhood?".  This vision is critical to gaining long term public/political support.

This is the closest thing to a map of a long range plan that I can find online.  It shows commuter rail, BRT, skyway and waterborne routes together.

http://www.jtafla.com/Graphics/RTS/RTSsystemMap.htm

[fsujax]

It seems there are a variety of different options shown in this study, so the door is open to further discussion and realignment of any route. The Feasibility Study will help to define an exact route. I have a hard time believing that the 5-Points area doesn't have high density residential uses around it. There are several apartments, condos and homes within an easy walking distance of the 5-Points/Publix area. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither will a Jacksonville streetcar system. I am sure there will be plenty more time for discussion on this matter. In the meantime, I think it's a step in the right direction, who would have thought three years ago JTA would be doing streetcar studies?

[thelakelander]

No one.  We just have to make sure all the transit money isn't raided by the Mayor's economic stimulus proposal.  Hopefully, the city council will understand the importance of having a viable mass transit system in a region with 1.3 million residents.

[fsujax]

I agree with you on that Lake. We can't raid what we have left for transit.

[Ocklawaha]

A good friend at JTA recently asked me. "Bob, why do you like tracks in the median, isn't that the old way?" YES! But my young friends notice this car in the photo - STREETCAR doors open on BOTH SIDES, no need to step into traffic or to take up someones curb lane. BTW, still think all those wires and trolleys are ugly?

Why can't JTA - GF - RSH get the concept of MIX SELLS? They seem to think that mix is having all the different modes running next to eachother.

Jacksonville and long range transit planning remind me of a man who spent $1,000 dollars on fine Italian shoes. They were delivered perfect in every way, except they didn't come with soles. But being one to run with the "Big Dogs" he ties them on his feet and jogs down the nature trail. Suddenly a sand-spur stops him cold. Angry at the shoes failure, he throws them into the brush never to be seen again. When a simple trip downtown to the cobbler would have added a bit of sole for $50 dollars. THIS CITY NEEDS SOUL!

Worse still, when we try and come up with a mix plan all I've ever seen us produce is duplication. Duplication of services forces your very own transit system to compete with itself. A horrible waste of assets. Let's say for example the guy in the above story is determined to get it right "this time". So he orders every make, model, style, color and shape one can imagine - but since they all go on his left foot, he is obviously a JTA consultant. Even the "Three Stooges" understood the words "SPREAD OUT!"

BOB? WHY THE OLD STYLE STREETCARS? Observe the two photos, and you tell me which is a fit for our inner city neighborhoods:




We've taken a good look at this, and frankly the Streetcar needs to stay out of San Marco or Southside until such time as there is a way across the river and funding...Maybe something like a NEW Matthews Bridge.

I don't care for the plan either, as it involves two more troublesome points. Either the Riverside viaduct which is heavy with freeway type traffic and ramps - not streetcar friendly. The Park Street Viaduct is even worse, with only a 16 foot ground clearence from the old rail yard below, the only way to get Amtrak and Commuter Rail platforms under it is to dig out all of the fill that was put on the flood plain after the station was wiped out in a tropical storm circa 1910 +/-.  They convinced the FEC to lower their track to near water level to gain the 23' foot railroad clearence, but this won't fly on the lower NORTH end of that bridge. So the bridge is going to come down, IF we get either Amtrak hub, or Commuter Rail of any kind. That leaves us only one way over the rails and creek. M Y R T L E   A V E N U E   Subway. Yeah, you read that right, the center section of Myrtle Avenue has streetcar tracks buried 6' below the curent pavement level under the concrete filler. "But Bob, it floods..." Yep, ever wonder where the big pumps and drains were? 6' BELOW the pavement! DUH.

I must warn Mike Miller and company that reading the following might cause shortness of breath.



The OCKLAWAHA concept calls for more BRT then anything JTA has EVER PUBLISHED. I'd use I-10 to jump the streetcar rich Riverside area and get onto Roosevelt-Blanding-Normandy etc. I'd re-route EVERYTHING on the Southside away from the skyway and even build a busway where South Gary Street is today. Baptist would no longer be in a transit no-mans land. The trunk lines and downtown shuttles would ALL BE ELECTRIC trolley bus and use green energy.



The little Skyway would grow up by only a couple of miles in order to become a transit system rather then a horizontal elevator. Skyway stations would change into markets, vendors, botiques, and become self supporting destinations. Patio resturant on the upper deck at San Marco Station? Why not - it's certainly not crowded. The lines would tap N. Main Streetcar, Stadium area, San Marco at Atlantic Commuter Rail Station, Riverside streetcar at Roselle and Park. NO DUPLICATION OF ROUTE. A possible addition to my map might be from the current "San Marco Station" to Atena and Baptist-Nemours.



Streetcars would be heritage type reproduction NEW cars. We would order them with all the creature comforts of modern streetcars - AC - HEAT - PLUSH SEATS - ADA etc... but save a ton of money because of the period design. Beside's NOTHING will be a better fit in SPRINGFIELD, FAIRFIELD, BROOKLYN, RIVERSIDE, AVONDALE etc... then a period streetcar. It also gives us the chance to pioneer a bit and purchase reproductions of the famous "Hollywood Star LOUNGE cars" we once had. These party cars could become a world famous attraction for charters and good times. (The originals had plush seats, brass railings, open observation lounge platforms on the ends, restroom, kitchenette/bar). Tell me THAT they wouldn't stay busy.



Commuter Rail would scrap the stupid stop planned for the "Prudential Station" in favor of the more traditional station at San Marco and Atlantic, where BRT-SKYWAY-COMMUTER RAIL would all meet. The Skyway already serves the PRU.

The Sports district would see all 4 modes coming in from different area's for max coverage.

Water Taxis would expand a small amout to take in Randolph/Sports area, Memorial Park/5-Points and local stops in between.

THE PLAN:






Comment la douce vengeance - General Motors!

[Ocklawaha]

In the meantime, I think it's a step in the right direction, who would have thought three years ago JTA would be doing streetcar studies?

ME!

OCKLAWAHA
Planning for the REVOLUTION since 1968

[stjr]

Stjr, go to the "First Coast MPO" website to view the transportation master plans for the entire First Coast Region. Also, be prepared to have a heart attack. There isn't a real plan for interconnecting the entire region with transit. However, they have amazingly extensive plans for even more highway projects, including an outer beltway.

This is the closest thing to a map of a long range plan that I can find online.  It shows commuter rail, BRT, skyway and waterborne routes together.

http://www.jtafla.com/Graphics/RTS/RTSsystemMap.htm

Well..., I looked at these sites and I agree.  Not very impressive and/or detailed.  Also, a lot of zig zag pathways and loop-de-loops.  I don't know what we spend on consultants for all these studies, but I think, just using my experience as a life long Jax resident who has been a careful observer of its last few decades of growth and behavior patterns - and adding a dose of on-the-ground knowledge and common sense - my schemes roughed out in my earlier post are very similar or better (IMHO  ) than what these agencies are coming up with.  Give me a full day, a pen, and a map, and I could easily take it up a few levels, I'm sure.  No need to spend millions of dollars and years of time cooking this stuff up and then being off by 90%!

I am advocating for a community-based, common sense, well reasoned (not politically twisted), comprehensive, efficient, relatively simple/straight forward regional and urban interconnected MASS transportation system that is not distorted by gimmicks and Federal agendas or influence.

We need to stay away from piecemeal designed, pork barrel, please-everyone-all-the-time, outsiders-know-better-than-us solutions, and PATIENTLY FOCUS on following/implementing a thoughtful multi-decade regional master plan for the next 25 to 30 years and we will be in good shape.

I also think if we did an adequate and successful job on mass transit, the pressure to invest and build some of these future highways (again, let's remove the politics supporting them) such as the outer beltway could be alleviated.  We might find people less inclined to want to live further out if they had more efficient and reliable access to the ammenities within the existing developed areas.

Hmmm... maybe my odds will be better with the newly available Power Ball lottery!

[thelakelander]

Rome wasn't built in a day and neither will a Jacksonville streetcar system. I am sure there will be plenty more time for discussion on this matter. In the meantime, I think it's a step in the right direction...

Rome was not built in a day, but with limited resources, we need to get the most out of our initial investment.  Getting the most, means taking advantage of existing destinations and stretching this thing out as far as we can for a given price.  I'll try to explain my position graphically by showing the shortfalls of one of the consultant's plans.

It seems there are a variety of different options shown in this study, so the door is open to further discussion and realignment of any route. The Feasibility Study will help to define an exact route. I have a hard time believing that the 5-Points area doesn't have high density residential uses around it. There are several apartments, condos and homes within an easy walking distance of the 5-Points/Publix area.

1. The six red dots represent major existing destinations that have been either overlooked or ignored.  These are:

- Blue Cross Blue Shield
- Everbank Plaza
- DuPont Trust
- Fidelity's complex
- Riverside Artist Market/Northbank Riverwalk
- Cummer Museum

We're avoiding 10,000 office workers, an artist market and soon-to-be, the second largest museum in the state.  A museum that attracted 123,000 visitors in 2006.  While Park Street provides a straight line into Five Points, is it more important to success of the initial line and long term expansion goals?

2. The entire initial line is double tracked.  Is this really necessary considering the initial system will probably have around six cars total?  We need to think "affordability" with a goal of getting the most out of our initial investment.  Instead of building a short line full of bells and whistles, its better to keep things simple.  One way to stretch our dollars would be to build a bi-directional single line system with occassional passing sidings.  By doing this, it will then be possible to stretch the initial segment into nearby neighborhoods like Riverside and Springfield.  Unless someone is donating a wad of extra cash, double track when absolutely necessary.


The Tacoma Link: An example of a bidirectional single line modern streetcar system.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=921.0

3. The Five Points couplet has three blocks between one way lines.  Loops (as I like to call them) don't work well when spaced out more than a block or so.  For example, a tourist visiting Cummer would not be able to use the line to access Memorial Park, Publix or the restaurants along Margaret because it does not go in that direction.

4. While there is dense housing around Five Points, why not stretch further into Riverside to become more accessible to a larger local ridership base.  The more the merrier, right? By double tracking and including two couplets, in the initial segment, $65-$85 million is then spent without truly penetrating one dense urban core neighborhood. I find it hard to come up with a logical reason not to push the initial line into pedestrian friendly residential districts if it can be done for the exact same costs by not initially double tracking.  In addition, by not double tracking, we have a chance to immediately connect DT with St. Vincents and Park & King, while passing a large collection of multifamily housing along the way.




In this alternative scenerio, the line brings access to Five Points, redevelopment potential to Brooklyn, while also tapping into a ridership rich area of Riverside.  Because it uses less track than the original, the line could then be extended into Riverside via Oak Street (an original streetcar line) to St. Vincents/Park & King.  Now, more destinations and residents are being served by the same initial investment.  I would also recommend taking the same approach with the DT section.

I don't care for the plan either, as it involves two more troublesome points. Either the Riverside viaduct which is heavy with freeway type traffic and ramps - not streetcar friendly. The Park Street Viaduct is even worse, with only a 16 foot ground clearence from the old rail yard below, the only way to get Amtrak and Commuter Rail platforms under it is to dig out all of the fill that was put on the flood plain after the station was wiped out in a tropical storm circa 1910 +/-.  They convinced the FEC to lower their track to near water level to gain the 23' foot railroad clearence, but this won't fly on the lower NORTH end of that bridge. So the bridge is going to come down, IF we get either Amtrak hub, or Commuter Rail of any kind.

The subway and the roads leading to it, have been filled with tons of concrete.  Digging all of that stuff out, regrading three streets (Myrtle, Bay & Dennis) and fixing/installing new pumps could be an expensive endeavor.

In the event that the Park Street viaduct would have to be demolished, it will have to be rebuilt.  With this in mind, when and if, that day comes, a new bridge could easily accomodate streetcar tracks.  In the meantime, the most affordable way to get to Five Points would be adding streetcar track on the top of the existing bridge.  All this requires is one of the four existing lanes.  Little Rock's bridge over the river is a perfect example.



To cross the river without building a new bridge, the width of lanes on an existing bridge were reduced to create a streetcar lane.  Instead of cutting into the bridge, tracks were laid right on top.  We can do the same with the Park Street bridge, assuming its structurally sound.

[thelakelander]

We need to stay away from piecemeal designed, pork barrel, please-everyone-all-the-time, outsiders-know-better-than-us solutions, and PATIENTLY FOCUS on following/implementing a thoughtful multi-decade regional master plan for the next 25 to 30 years and we will be in good shape.

Great point.  Austin's Capital Metro's "All Systems Go Long-Range Transit Plan" is a good example to follow.  The plan highlights all proposed mass transit line improvements for the next 25 years.  It includes urban commuter rail, regional commuter rail, bus rapid transit, express and local bus corridors laid all across the metropolitan area.  After this plan was created, they then moved forward with getting the initial urban commuter rail project off the ground. 

Here's a link to the interactive map: http://allsystemsgo.capmetro.org/all-systems-go.shtml

We need to do the same thing.

[stjr]

We're avoiding 10,000 office workers, an artist market and soon-to-be, the second largest museum in the state.  A museum that attracted 123,000 visitors in 2006.  While Park Street provides a straight line into Five Points, is it more important to success of the initial line and long term expansion goals?....

....While there is dense housing around Five Points, why not stretch further into Riverside to become more accessible to a larger local ridership base.  The more the merrier, right? By double tracking and including two couplets, in the initial segment, $65-$85 million is then spent without truly penetrating one dense urban core neighborhood. I find it hard to come up with a logical reason not to push the initial line into pedestrian friendly residential districts if it can be done for the exact same costs by not initially double tracking.  In addition, by not double tracking, we have a chance to immediately connect DT with St. Vincents and Park & King, while passing a large collection of multifamily housing along the way.

Lake, I believe we are close to being on the same page on this.  From my earlier post:

Also, shouldn't street cars service high density residential, not just commercial, and tie the two area types together?  If so, early phases should be considered to run down Beaver Street to at least Stockton, run down Stockton to Riverside Ave. and return Downtown.  You would pick up lots of residential (multiple income levels to broaden support as well), the Farmers Market, St. Vincents, the Cummer, nodes with I-10 (at Stockton), I-95 (at Beaver), and both North/South railroads (at Beaver) and East/West railroads (at Stockton) if mass rail ever comes along and everything in between.

I am thinking about the street cars in New Orlean's Garden District as an example.

If you want more 24 x 7 use, I think we need to connect more than just office buildings to ferry workers to lunch and parking.  More residential would do that.

Longterm, I could see street cars running to Avondale/Ortega/Lakeshore, Hendricks/San Jose/Lakewood, St. Nicholas/St. Augustine Road to University, Beaver Street to McDuff/Edgewood/Commonwealth, and Myrtle/8th Street.  The mass rail could go the longer distances terminating at Orange Park/Green Cove Springs, Mandarin/ St. Johns County/St. Augustine, Airport/Yulee/Fernandina, Cecil/Normandy, Callahan, Baldwin, etc.   Maybe one day, even the old Beach rail could be returned down Beach (with a cross connect transit system to Arlington/Regency) or Bulter Blvds.  Now that would be real urban system.