Streetcars Coming to Downtown Jacksonville?

[tufsu1]

So, let's limit the role of the consultants. (I say their highest value is to bring us best practices proven elsewhere, not tell us where to necessarily run the "tracks" or which mode is best for our community.  After all, we are the ones that will be the lasting consumers of what we build and so should be able to capably judge what works for us.)

Don't agree, at least one Consultant came up with the heritage streetcar idea in 1980. At that time there were NONE - anywhere. Also at that time we still had 5 good streetcars around Jacksonville. So if your Consultant has been leading this from the get-go, has been in the business, created the idea, and grew up in Ortega... Is he still silenced?

OCKLAWAHA

agreed...often the consultants live in the community and care about it too....and even when the main consultant is from out of town, they usually have a local firm as a subconsultant to provide local knowledge.

now stjr...I'm sorry that you are so cynical when it comes to consultants...I might suggest you spend some time working with/for some before criticizing....the fact is consultants offer expertise that is often not found at the local staff level...and studies are often a partnership between the client (agency) and the consultant...with information flowing to/from both.

In the end, both consultants and staff are primarily responsible for providing technical information...elecetd/appointed officials are the ones who make the decisions...so if you're not happy, make your voice heard at public meetings and if need be, vote them out of office!

[aj_fresh]

I told Alberto not to piss on the third rail!

Funny; As that happens to be my real name.

Keep up the good work!!!

[JeffreyS]

Here is what I would love for with streetcar.

Roosevelt mall to the stadium through a great mix of homes, restaurants, employers shopping entertainment. My own selfish wishes.

[Ocklawaha]

Jeffery, your right on target. I highlighted your ideas in Orange and Mine in Yellow.

Couple of notes:

The only MUST HAVE is the contact with Union Terminal/JTC/Prime Osbourne (what ever they call it today).

We shouldn't use BAY ST to the Stadium as it ruins the opportunity for the Skyway to reach it without big $$ for a new junction. The streetcar could roll up Newnan to the next crossing at Duval or Beaver (on railroad track alone).

We didn't pick Riverside Avenue Viaduct (even though that WAS one of the original streetcar routes and the company barns sat where the Skyway Center is, offices and power plant where the TU is today), due to the freeway ramps, high speeds and long steep grade.

Park Avenue Viaduct (properly called the "LEE STREET VIADUCT" but JTA and COJ failed history 101) has major problems with clearence for the railroad below it. If we grow into a transportation hub for Amtrak or Commuter Rail that bridge is TOAST. We are also not sure - even if we did build on it as a quick fix, would it support the weight?

Myrtle Avenue Subway, also part of the original system - awaits someone to clean out the center and expose the tracks below. This may or may not be the cheap way across, but I'm trying to get the prints for it and will let y'all know what I find.

We think it's very important to catch both Park and King as well as 5-Points.

I agree to run to the Shops of Avondale would be fantastic and you are right, it sets us up for a run to Roosevelt Plaza and a commuter rail connection. I'd stay on the original route "Herschel" south of Ingleside in Avondale, as St. Johns turns into a tight curving mess near Fishweir Creek.

OCKLAWAHA

[Coolyfett]

Without a reliable feeder system into that area, such as commuter rail, this is going to be a lot like the Skyway. A system connecting a few locations that will have limited riders becuase they will have to drive down there to get on it anyway.

Also I feel that this would be ineffiicient and expanding the Skyway would be better suited for the area it is covering. For instance if you were wanting to go to Five Points from San Marco. You would have to take the Skyway over the river and get off just to go to a street car station and take that down to Five Points. For the hassle it would be easier, and quicker to drive. Also I believe it would be more attractive to people if they only had to use one form of transit to get where they are going.

If however the entire route including all the areas that are suggested in the study is implemented, then the Skyway should be removed to avoid duplicating efforts. 

I totally agree. I don't like the idea of mixing and matching. Its dumb! Just stay with one vehicle and make it better.

[Ocklawaha]

While one could argue the Skyway costs are about the same per miles as the original JTA BRT plan @ 26 Million a mile, streetcars can cost 1/3 as much. The Skyway is not designed for commuter traffic, never was, and there are doubts about it's max. Passenger Per Direction Per Hour capacity. Still as an urban office connector, it's above heavy downtown traffic, and not subject to lights or congestion. Properly built it should ENTER many of the buildings it rolls past.

Streetcars are at grade and can be designed to compliment a community. The LAST THING a neighborhood like old 5-Points, Memorial Park, Park and King, Riverside, Avondale, Fairfax, Ortega, Springfield or San Marco, San Jose need is a Skyway blowing past historic homes and businesses. This is in FACT the thing that stopped it from being pushed further north.

Leaving the Landing and going to most any destination within the inner core I should have no less then 3 modes in at least 4 forms to choose from. Each plying a unique route, that interconnect and form a matrix.
If I'm at Hemming Plaza and need to go to Orange Park, I'll have, commuter rail or BRT at Union Station, I can take the Skyway, or I could catch the streetcar, I like that restaurant by the new courthouse, but the trolley bus is coming down Monroe. Of course I could walk up to Rosa Parks and catch the BRT express and with the exception of a pause at Union Station, We'd soon be on the freeway connector to Edgewood transfer station. CHOICES = WOW. The new streetcar extension meets the commuter rail at the Roosevelt transfer station too. Armed with a laptop, I opt for the trolley bus shuttle and catch the train at Union Station for Orange Park.

This is how it should be done in ANY major city.

A Skyway is not a streetcar
A Streetcar is not a bus
A bus is not BRT
A BRT line is not a train
A train is not a trolley bus
A trolley bus is not a Skyway

Each does a unique job.

Reminds me of a fella that walked into a little place and ordered a hamburger and a coke.

The business owner looked up from the counter and said,"Why I bet you work for the City of Jacksonville!"

The fella was upset by the remark and asked "Why when I come in and order a coke and a burger, what makes you think I'm from the City of Jacksonville? If I ordered pizza would you think I was from Rome?

The counter man said, "I don't know, ain't never happened before."

If I ordered Sausage would you think I was from Poland?

The counter man said, "I don't know, that ain't never happened either."

If I wanted a Taco, would you say I was from Mexico?

Again the man said, "Well I just don't know!"

The customer now shouting, "No! NO! I come in and order a hamburger and a coke, and you tell me that
I'm from the CITY OF JACKSONVILLE - now YOU TELL ME WHY?"

Well the man said quietly, this is a hardware store.


Would you go to a dentist to repair the Accura? How about a shoe store for grocerys? Ace hardware for a worship center?

The difference between a town with some transit routes and one with a TRANSIT SYSTEM is huge and diverse.

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

Jeffery, your right on target. I highlighted your ideas in Orange and Mine in Yellow.

Couple of notes:

The only MUST HAVE is the contact with Union Terminal/JTC/Prime Osbourne (what ever they call it today).

We shouldn't use BAY ST to the Stadium as it ruins the opportunity for the Skyway to reach it without big $$ for a new junction. The streetcar could roll up Newnan to the next crossing at Duval or Beaver (on railroad track alone).

We didn't pick Riverside Avenue Viaduct (even though that WAS one of the original streetcar routes and the company barns sat where the Skyway Center is, offices and power plant where the TU is today), due to the freeway ramps, high speeds and long steep grade.

Park Avenue Viaduct (properly called the "LEE STREET VIADUCT" but JTA and COJ failed history 101) has major problems with clearence for the railroad below it. If we grow into a transportation hub for Amtrak or Commuter Rail that bridge is TOAST. We are also not sure - even if we did build on it as a quick fix, would it support the weight?

Myrtle Avenue Subway, also part of the original system - awaits someone to clean out the center and expose the tracks below. This may or may not be the cheap way across, but I'm trying to get the prints for it and will let y'all know what I find.

We think it's very important to catch both Park and King as well as 5-Points.

I agree to run to the Shops of Avondale would be fantastic and you are right, it sets us up for a run to Roosevelt Plaza and a commuter rail connection. I'd stay on the original route "Herschel" south of Ingleside in Avondale, as St. Johns turns into a tight curving mess near Fishweir Creek.

OCKLAWAHA

I love the Park and King extension. I would add St. Vincents to the must haves. I would like the Publix on the list. As you said the skyway to the stadium would be my first choice we would finally have that part for tourists to love. I just worry streetcar is more likely than skyway extension and we should have some transit up and down Bay.

[Ocklawaha]

Yeah, their not mutually exclusive - a simple change of command at the the top could get the Skyway moving, some creative thought could get funds for it too. Meanwhile the self financed streetcar could be under construction. Commuter rail and port rail could be rolled into a big federal grant and chased at that level.

The Skyway suffers from a perception that it's a political assassin. I still think the politico that pulls off the home run will be forever honored.

You've made some great observations on the streetcar... Ya know streetcar affactionados are known as "JUICE FANS" or "JUICE JUNKIES". Maybe you qualify? I think for tourism that a ride through the Myrtle Street Subway would be about the coolest experience on a train/tram anywhere in the deep south.




OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

We took our three year old and the inlaws downtown to chew early this evening rode the skyway from hemming to the Landing just so my little man could ride.  The car ride home he was miserable in the carseat the skyway ride he thought he was king of the world I think I know where he gets it.
btw Saturday at 7pm skyway full and problems at the turn styles at Hemming and central I'm not sure we get a good count of how many people use the skyway.

[Ocklawaha]

It's funny my Grandson's first, and second ride on the rails have been on streetcars. Little Robert is just 15 months old, but today he was playing with a playschool steam train toy, suddenly out of no where - without any coaching, he starts with "Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Ding... We about fell out of our chairs how a 15 month old can connect a streetcar and a train into the same basic vehicle. Damn! Up until recently JTA, FDOT and COJ haven't been able to catch that concept!

Guess wer're proud of the Lil Juice Junkie. Got to get him a Motormans Cap, wonder if he'll remember them?

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Using the MYRTLE SUBWAY would bring it into the new Transportation Center, and create a setup to take it north along the restored sections of Myrtle which have become vibrant and attractive again, North end of the Extension? How about the "Small" Baseball park - home of the US Negro Leagues. Under study it may turn out to have more passenger connectivity then just a buzz by on Park-Lee. The Skyway and the concourse of Union Terminal are a full block to block and a half WEST of Lee.

OCKLAWAHA

[Jason]

I'd rather see the line run like this. 

Red = Streetcar
Blue = Skyway extension





Park St. (west of St. Vincents) is much more central to the Riverside core and allows access to FCCJ Kent Campus and still hits the major destination points the the St. Johns alignment would hit.  Plus it allows for future extensions on into Ortega, Lake Shore/San Juan, Murray Hill, and the King Street corridor. 

By connecting the Kent Campus to the system, it will give students a way to transfer from there through Riverside residential areas (housing) to the downtown campus and not have to worry about a car.  They also would have access to entertainment and plenty of shopping.

[JeffreyS]

^ Jason I like your route and then a future phase could run edgewood from the shoppes at Avondale to the first block and commuter rail link in Murray hill.

[thelakelander]

What about Cummer and their aggressive plan to increase square footage and become the second largest museum in the state?  The major con of running down Park (just south of I-95) is we would miss one of our most popular urban core tourist destinations by three blocks.

Cummer exhibits lofty plan for growth
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/060405/met_18912509.shtml

[JeffreyS]

Yeah Lake your right Jeff's route is much better.