Streetcars Coming to Downtown Jacksonville?

[thelakelander]

Yes, we're on the same page.  A initial route really needs to penetrate residential areas to ultimately be successful and attract diverse round the clock ridership.

[tufsu1]

I don't know what we spend on consultants for all these studies, but I think, just using my experience as a life long Jax resident who has been a careful observer of its last few decades of growth and behavior patterns - and adding a dose of on-the-ground knowledge and common sense - my schemes roughed out in my earlier post are very similar or better (IMHO  ) than what these agencies are coming up with.  Give me a full day, a pen, and a map, and I could easily take it up a few levels, I'm sure.  No need to spend millions of dollars and years of time cooking this stuff up and then being off by 90%!

Many of us could do this....there's just a few problems...

1. You need data - agencies require lots of analysis to support proposals

2. Don't assume that consultants always come up with these options - sometimes they have to do what the decision makers say....in this case, the leaders of Jacksonville and the surrounding counties

Again, if you go to the First Coast MPO (North Florida TPO) website, you can get info. on the Long Range Plan Update now underway....and how you can get involved in the process.

[Charles Hunter]

Thanks, tufsu, here is a link to their site: http://northfloridatpo.com/envision2035/
On that first page, is a link to the schedule of upcoming meetings.
Looks like they are having 8 meetings starting Jan. 20 in St. Johns County (Switzerland), continuing all over the area, and ending Feb. 2nd in Deerwood.
Would be great if a bunch of us could show up at these things.

[stjr]

1. You need data - agencies require lots of analysis to support proposals

2. Don't assume that consultants always come up with these options - sometimes they have to do what the decision makers say....in this case, the leaders of Jacksonville and the surrounding counties

As we know, data can be manipulated to support just about anything.  And, many times it is not well substantiated, collected, interpreted and/or projected (see my discussion on the Skyway elsewhere this week for an example of a bad decision created by such shortcomings).  Presenters of data need to be thoroughly tested and cross examined to determine the adequacy and usefulness of their efforts.  In no case, should data should be weighted automatically above all other inputs such as experience, availability of resources, qualitative factors, and good ol' common sense.

And sometimes, we need wish to change the data going forward by creating a new environment.  This requires us to interject the overall goals we seek to achieve and blend in the facts (such as data, etc.) and circumstances (including our visions of the future) to make them a reality.

As to consultants, we agree. I have been saying all along that consultants prostitute (I mean this as a result of human tendencies not to "bite the hand that feeds them", rather than as an automatic charge they might do it with malfeasance) themselves to the government entities that hire them and their leaders (i.e. politicians) that run them.  So, let's limit the role of the consultants. (I say their highest value is to bring us best practices proven elsewhere, not tell us where to necessarily run the "tracks" or which mode is best for our community.  After all, we are the ones that will be the lasting consumers of what we build and so should be able to capably judge what works for us.)

And, let us depoliticize (as much as possible) the process by having "blue ribbon" commissions made up of a diversity of qualified, non-office holding citizens who will be the users, neighbors, and taxpayers for the systems to be built.  Consultants, JTA employees, and other directly interested or paid parties (such as contractors, developers, etc.) should be contributors to the process, but not voters in the decisions due to their inherent conflicts of interest in the results.  The entire process should be TRANSPARENT (lots of town hall meetings, a web site for contributions, convenient meetings for the public to attend, aggressive publicity about progress made, open and public documentation, discussions, and testimony leading to publicly held votes, etc.).  The politicians should be charged with getting the funding for the recommended plans.

Maybe, we will actually achieve a community supported, efficient, and successful mass transit system.

[Steve]

Jason - the route that lake posted earlier is my preference.  To me, the first phase must go into a residential neighborhood, or you might as well run it 11-2 like the trolley (kind of a waste to lay track then).

Here is the important thing - whatever Phase 1 is, it must be successful by itself, or people will call it Skyway II

[stjr]

Thanks, tufsu, here is a link to their site: http://northfloridatpo.com/envision2035/

Appreciate the link.

I had to back pedal through several links and then open a set of meeting minutes for the board and committees to see who was on the TPO and supporting it.  Hey, the board has lots of respectable politicians and appointed area authority board membersfrom all the area governmental entities .  Supported by transportation agency professionals.

The technical COORDINATING (say what?!) committee has a long list of governmental entity and agency employees and elected officials.

The Citizens ADVISORY committee (only recognized one name) shows no titles, credentials, or how they are appointed from what I could see.  Several consultants in attendance (not sure what role they play here).

Even the Pedestrian/Bicycle ADVISORY committee is stacked with government employees.

There is a  Business, Industry and Government Transportation Roundtable. I couldn't find names for this has no minutes posted but I sure got a chuckle at their self-applied acronym as the "BIG" committee.

I saw no clear description of the process for reaching decisions or making recommendations or the timetables for same or even what I thought was a precise description of the boundaries of their "authority".  What happens after they act?  Does the process go elsewhere or are they it?  Is this the same organizational process that brought us the Skyway (they were formed in 1978)?

To sum it up, this process appears to be mostly led and controlled by very politically motivated individuals or those controlled (i.e. employed) by same and others of regular influence on decisions made "for the good of the City".  I don't see where an average non-affiliated citizen would feel their input would carry much weight with this process.  I think that most of the "citizen" positions that do exist are marginalized due to numbers and/or being in an "advisory" role.  Also, how does this organization maintain any kind of "institutional memory" with elections and new appointments forcing so many members to revolve quite regularly?  After all, they are charged with making plans for over 25 years and with updating them every 5 years.  How many are around from one update to the next?

I hope I am wrong, but after reading all the bureaucratic gobbledy gook on the web site and seeing who controls it, I don't see this as the best way to make great decisions about mass and regional transit with all due respect to the many individuals who may serve it with the best of intentions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the TPO web site for the uninitiated:

What is the North Florida TPO?
Federal Statute's requires every urbanized area with a population of 50,000 or more, including all contiguous urban areas with a population of 1,000 or more per square mile, to have a Metropolitan Planning Organization. By State Statute, TPO's are responsible for transportation related air, noise and water quality planning and the development of the:

Unified Planning Work Program (UPWP) detailing the TPO's annual budget and planning activities;

Transportation Improvement Program (TIP) listing the funding and staging of improvements for roadways, transit, air and seaports, bicyclists, pedestrians and the transportation disadvantaged over a five-year period; and

Long Range Transportation Plan (LRTP) with a 20+ year time horizon based on current needs and forecasted future growth which lists the multi-modal transportation projects that are needed and can be funded in that timeframe.

In addition to developing these plans and programs, the North Florida TPO identifies issues, convenes stakeholders, conducts studies and develops policies in light of local, national and global trends. Recent initiatives include coordinating regional legislative priorities, integrating land use and transportation planning and preparing for increased global trade. We also address current needs and challenges that impact our daily lives through programs for commuters, the transportation disadvantaged, bicyclists and pedestrians.

Our History

The First Coast Metropolitan Planning Organization was officially designated in 1978 by Florida Governor Reuben Askew. An Inter-Local Agreement between the City of Jacksonville, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA), the Jacksonville Planning and Development Department, Clay County, St. Johns County and the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) first established the North Florida TPO.

In 2003 the North Florida TPO voted to become an independent regional agency, making it the third in Florida. This was a major decision that the Board made concurrent with expanding the North Florida TPO boundary to incorporate the newly designated St. Augustine Urbanized Area and portions of Clay County as a result of the 2000 Census. In 2004 the TPO boundary was expanded to include portions of Nassau County. Subsequently, the Board has added ex-officio members representing Baker, Putnam and Flagler Counties, as well as the U. S. Navy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are the TPO web site's own descriptions of its makeup:

The North Florida TPO Board is comprised of elected officials and transportation agency representatives. They meet monthly to discuss issues and make informed decisions about future transportation projects, initiatives and improvements, thus providing leadership for a continuous and comprehensive transportation planning process. Currently, the TPO has fifteen voting members and five non-voting/ex officio members as listed below.

Two Clay County Commissioners
One St. Johns County Commissioner
One Nassau County Commissioner
Mayor, City of Jacksonville
Mayor, City of St. Augustine or St. Augustine Beach (rotating)
Three Jacksonville City Council Members
One Mayor from the Beaches Communities - Atlantic Beach, Neptune Beach or Jacksonville Beach
Jacksonville Port Authority Board Member
Jacksonville Aviation Authority Board Member
Jacksonville Transportation Authority Board Member
St. Augustine - St. Johns County Airport Authority Board Member
Nassau County Ocean, Highway and Port Authority Board Member
Ex officio members include: District 2 Secretary, Florida Department of Transportation; a representative from the U.S. Navy and a representative from the Baker, Flagler and Putnam County Commissions.
The North Florida TPO meets monthly, except July and January, the second Thursday at 10 a.m.

The Technical Coordinating Committee (TCC) advises the TPO on technical issues concerning transportation and air quality. Membership includes transportation planners and engineers who are employed by the local governments or agencies in the region and staff members from the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, Jacksonville Port Authority, Jacksonville Aviation Authority, Florida Dept. of Transportation, Florida Dept. of Environmental Protection, City of Jacksonville Air and Water Quality Division, Jacksonville Sheriff's Office and the Northeast Florida Regional Council. The TCC meets the first Wednesday monthly, except January and July, at 10:00 a.m.

The Citizens Advisory Committee (CAC) provides an opportunity for citizens to participate in the transportation planning process and bring issues directly related to transportation or air quality to the TPO and its staff. Its membership is diverse and appointed via a number of channels including the six Citizens Planning Advisory Committees for the City of Jacksonville, the Clay, Nassau and St. Johns Boards of County Commissioners and from local neighborhood groups, the business community and other special interest groups, such as environmental organizations. The CAC meets the first Wednesday monthly, except January and July, at 6 p.m.

Bicycle/Pedestrian Advisory Committee
The Bicycle/Pedestrian Advisory Committee (B/PAC) includes citizens and agency representatives who wish to further bicycle and pedestrian facilities. Recent Federal legislation has increased the emphasis on providing alternative travel modes and many new bicycle and pedestrian facilities have been funded through the Federal Highway Administration?s Enhancement Funds administered by the Florida Department of Transportation. The B/PAC recommends facilities funding in short and long range transportation plans and also provides a forum to coordinate facilities, such as linking trails and greenways through multiple jurisdictions. The B/PAC meets the third Thursday of January, March, May, July, September and November at 5 p.m.

Business, Industry and Government Transportation Roundtable
The Business, Industry and Government (BIG) Transportation Roundtable brings representatives from rail, airport, seaport, freight, chamber of commerce and economic development interests together to address the economic impacts of transportation planning issues. The BIG Roundtable meets quarterly the first Tuesday of February, May, August and November at 9:00 a.m.

Duval County Transportation Disadvantaged Coordinating Board
The Duval County Transportation Disadvantaged Coordinating Board (TD Board) advises the TPO on issues about transportation services for the "transportation disadvantaged" that include the elderly, persons with disabilities, children at-risk and those who cannot afford transportation. The TD Board is mandated by Chapter 427, Florida Statutes and implements policies and procedures relative to eligibility, service offerings and improvements. The TD Board meets the first Thursday of February, April, June, August, October and December at 9 a.m.

[Ocklawaha]

As we discussed this week, I favor either route through 5-Points and either Park or Riverside between 5-Points and Forrest. North of Forrest, we really don't know until engineers check both the bridge and the tunnels which would be cheaper. My guess is the tunnel is full of debris (like the Union Station Tunnels) then just a concrete cap. State DOT called me this evening and is looking for the drawings. I requested release of public record on these facilities.

I do disagree with missing St. Vincents and Park and King district. St. Vincents is interested - already have call backs from them - headed toward meeting? and Park and King has even more blossom potential then old 5-Points. Oak is wider (has the original track bed in it too)  and does pass Publix but so does Margaret and Riverside. but misses 5-Points directly, St. Vincents AND Park and King.

Ending at St. Johns and King sets up a future run to Shops of Avondale, Fairfax, Roosevelt Plaza, Edgewood, and Ingleside.

Downtown in the CBD the Consultants completely FUBAR'd the whole of Streetcar AND Commuter Rail. Making duplicate features everywhere.

Remember Amtrak telling the study group that getting to Union Station was only half the game, DISTRIBUTION past Union Station needs to be in place. They praised the Skyway but encouraged JTA to FINISH IT. Ditto the BRT and STREETCAR. Also remember that Amtrak might be the contract operator for Commuter Rail.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

So, let's limit the role of the consultants. (I say their highest value is to bring us best practices proven elsewhere, not tell us where to necessarily run the "tracks" or which mode is best for our community.  After all, we are the ones that will be the lasting consumers of what we build and so should be able to capably judge what works for us.)

Don't agree, at least one Consultant came up with the heritage streetcar idea in 1980. At that time there were NONE - anywhere. Also at that time we still had 5 good streetcars around Jacksonville. So if your Consultant has been leading this from the get-go, has been in the business, created the idea, and grew up in Ortega... Is he still silenced?

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Ock, I made it clear that a consultant was still part of the process.  I wanted to emphasize bringing "best practices" as the core of their value.  If that means a Heritage Streetcar, so be it.

What I am more concerned with is consultants generating data for their well paying clients (like the JTA) "on demand" to support forgone conclusions and not-so-hidden agendas and then drowning out any input from the community because of their alleged overwhelming expertise in telling people how to do these things.  Especially the multi-person, often national firms, that often ride into town on the back of over priced fees running into the millions to tell us what anyone with common sense could determine is an overstated, oversold, under supported course of action often delivered with "prejudice".

I compare it to all the giant firms in the financial services industry that have been "expertly advising" people. Overlooked was their obvious conflict of interest in that they were promoting the very products they created and pedaled.  I also haven't read of many that called the current downturn yet anyone with common sense could see that dramatically rising housing prices were not sustainable, credit cards would ultimately reach a limit in providing ever increasing credit to already strapped consumers which would eventually lead to a severe curtailment in consumer spending, and that you can't regularly lend money on quickly appreciating real estate with next to no money down, the assumption of ever rising prices (never has happened in the history of investing) and financing based on floating interest rates and fixed incomes and not expect to get burned as a lender/investor.

Ock, if you are an exception, a tip of the hat to you.  Being local and being small may put in you in a league apart.  How have you fared squaring off with your bigger brethren in the business?  Have you been given equal or greater weight when it comes to your recommendations vs. theirs?  How many times are they selected over you?  Just curious how the business works in the trenches.

[Joe]

stjr,

Be careful what you wish for. A process that maximizes community imput will probably lead to even fewer common sense solutions than the current system. The loudest "community" voices tend to come from people who desperately cling to the status quo and oppose change. Furthermore, in a city like Jacksonville, NIMBY groups tend to strongly support seperation of uses and oppose connectivity.

I agree that it's stupid to constantly pay consultants for re-studying things to which we already have the answer (i.e. the interminable "downtown" studies that never tell us anything new). However, relying on qualitative community common sense will NOT lead us to good policy overall.

Just because the people on this forum can - for free - reach the same conclusions as a consultant, doesn't mean that these solutions could happen without some sort of quantitative analysis by a professional 3rd party. Remember, many people on this forum are educated professionals in related fields. The average Jacksonville citizen is not. The average Jacksonville citizen thinks that multi-family units are dangerous, any rail is pointless, and 35 ft height limits are a good idea!

We need some sort of professional analysis in order to shut all those people up. Otherwise nothing with common sense will ever happen. 

[BridgeTroll]

The loudest "community" voices tend to come from people who desperately cling to the status quo and oppose change. Furthermore, in a city like Jacksonville, NIMBY groups tend to strongly support seperation of uses and oppose connectivity.

The anti Mayport cruise group is the latest example...

[Ocklawaha]

Ock, if you are an exception, a tip of the hat to you.  Being local and being small may put in you in a league apart.  How have you fared squaring off with your bigger brethren in the business?  Have you been given equal or greater weight when it comes to your recommendations vs. theirs?  How many times are they selected over you?  Just curious how the business works in the trenches.

I'm your Huckleberry!

League apart - try leigons



Entertainment in the town square.

fared just fine - going where these blue chips are afraid to go... (ever see rockets hitting a capital building from your hotel window? Rescued in an APV? Had dinner with M-19 and argued politics? seen a sidewalk sprayed by machine gun fire?) I have and I guess I love the daring of fate... Tell you what though, it sure as HELL ain't Vietnam back in the day.

Equal recommendations? Not in Florida, Let's see:
Subscription bus service
Central Florida Commuter Rail
Conversion of original bus system into a hub and spokes with outter connecting bands
Light Rail in Jacksonville
Streetcar in Jacksonville
Heritage Streetcar in Jacksonville


"Some crazy Gringo wants to ride in the cab."

All mine, wearing somebody elses label. But for me it's not about how many tee shirts I win, rather make the city better - me, you, they, them, us, I don't care! Let's do it.


Sometimes it's very hard to figure out what the problem is.

I've worked in Florida, but never in Jacksonville (except for some recent side work). I haven't bid JTA because frankly I scare the S**T out of most of them. In reality I'm the biggest supporter they have. Internationally, never a problem with work. Thus I've steered clear of professional organizations in the states. But those same professionals, magazines, associations, and clubs can and WILL give credit to the small guy (even one far, far, away).

Pretty much retired now, but would enjoy a few more battles, that's why I jump on here preaching and teaching the gospel of TRANSIT.

Got a question? I'm on OUR team - shine on Jacksonville!

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

Stjr
When this city was trying to build the skyway Ock was the one telling them they could grid Downtown and connect it to the core neighborhoods with streetcar for less money. He is a wealth of insight and expeirence and possibly the biggest smartass on the site. Stjr, I do say for a new poster you seem to be asking the right questions and making some great points.

[Ocklawaha]

Smart Ass? Who Me? Hee Hee! Love it. Thanks for the kind words Jeffery.
Here's a couple more just for you. 


Tell that Gringo in the Red Car to quit honking, he's starting to piss me off.


I told Alberto not to piss on the third rail!  ...No really this was the result of
bringing a Tennis Ball, as a weapon in a gun fight. Darwin Award?

Smile. Let's build a streetcar system!

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

OCKLAWAHA