The Downtown jail fallacy

[thelakelander]

The 2017 work was highly questionable, imo. We don't need a "new" convention center and most of the cities evaluated are outside of our tier and market.

I know it's humbling, but it would have been more accurate to look into the likes of centers in places like Mobile, Huntsville,  Memphis, Norfolk, etc. becuase they are more of our speed, when discussing downtown. The Prime Osborn is completely outdated and has been for more than 30 years now. It gets worse and worse every day and struggles to compete with the Hyatt....for many of the reasons expressed in the report. When you start looking at why we struggle and understand what the Prime Osborn lacks, you need to either invest in it or shut it down altogether. "Investing in it" (which is also listed as a next step), could be as simple as building an exhibition hall adjacent to the Hyatt, with ground floor retail /entertainment/cultural space facing Bay.....and closing the Prime Osborn.

That's simply better utilizing our existing assets (a centralized headquarters hotel + ballroom + meeting space and the POs exhibition hall) and clustering them together to maximize our ability to swim competitively in the kiddie pool that we're drowning in at the moment. All this talk and dreaming to become the Michael Phelps of the convention world is bonkers and overkill. Let's learn to crawl before trying to go on a steriod infused sprint.

IMO, that entire study was scoped wrong, in the focus was something grand, new and big, when #3 in the list below should be the primary focus to the convention center talk at this point.

Now, big thing that stands out is the "next steps" list. Six years have passed and I'd argue, it's gotten worse without the Landing. Riverfront Plaza isn't going to be as popular (i.e. attract more people on a daily basis) as the Landing was.....even in its final years.

CONCLUSION – NOT NOW, BUT AN IMPORTANT FUTURE ELEMENT

As stated in the first section of this report, SAG recommends against building a new Convention Center
at the present time, however the land banking and future planning for the Convention Center should be
part of all future downtown visioning The feedback that was received in interviews and surveys
demonstrated a moderate to low level of interest in many of the markets explored. This feedback
became much more favorable when shown renderings of future enhancements to the downtown area.
NEXT STEPS
As part of the overall visioning process in place in Jacksonville, SAG recommends establishing an
approach that includes effective planning for a potential future Convention Center. This will include the
following:

1. Secure the most favorable site as indicated by the research
The site that was identified in the customer interviews has growth potential, is next to a
headquarter hotel, and is positioned to take advantage of the St. John River as a backdrop.

2. Engage hotel developers and other potential business investors in discussions about future full
service hotels and other business development in conjunction with a new Convention Center
This will help validate the future impact a Convention Center will have in stimulating
development.

3. Finalize the vision for the Prime Osborn
The Prime Osborn is currently operating at an overall occupancy of 27%. This is a low occupancy
and may signify that it needs capital investment or to be repurposed.

4. Support the implementation of the shipyards, and other visions for the future of downtown
Jacksonville
The client feedback when reviewing the renderings of future Jacksonville visions was
outstanding. The implementation of this will be a significant step in positively impacting
Jacksonville's position as a viable convention destination.

5. Support the visioning process for the Landing
The evolution of the landing will greatly impact Jacksonville's attractiveness as a meetings and
convention destination.

6. Evaluate and develop a funding source to increase the marketing outreach to build the
awareness of Jacksonville as a meetings and convention destination.
Alternatives have been reviewed earlier in this study. It will be important to evaluate the most
appropriate option for Jacksonville.

7. Engage key stakeholders in a process to establish the most effective model for future convention,
meetings and event marketing and venue operations
There has been a trend to evaluate new approaches to create a seamless model for the sales,
marketing and operations of conventions, events and meeting. A process should be established
to evaluate the opportunities.

[marcuscnelson]

Seems worth noting that as of the proposed CIP we will have spent approximately $20 million propping up the Prime Osborn in its current condition rather than making any substantive progress towards a replacement, because after six years the DIA has decided that the optimal plan is to wait for the city to spend half a billion dollars moving the jail and then spend half a billion more constructing a brand new convention center from scratch.

[jaxlongtimer]

I wonder if an option would be to add on/rebuild the Osborne Convention Center and work to add a hotel(s) around it given the land options in that area.  It could even be tied to a restoration of LaVilla, recreating the nightspots of old and playing up its history.  Add, that the Emerald Trail now goes right in front, that I-95/I-10 ramps and the bus terminals are adjacent and you may have some elements for making this a preferred site.

[thelakelander]

There's no market for two convention center sized hotels in downtown. There's also no entertainment or restaurants in vicinity. Drinking beer on top of a gas station isn't going to get it done. The cheaper, easier option, that checks all the boxes still ends up being the Hyatt site.

[marcuscnelson]

I wonder if an option would be to add on/rebuild the Osborne Convention Center and work to add a hotel(s) around it given the land options in that area.  It could even be tied to a restoration of LaVilla, recreating the nightspots of old and playing up its history.  Add, that the Emerald Trail now goes right in front, that I-95/I-10 ramps and the bus terminals are adjacent and you may have some elements for making this a preferred site.

I think we've had this conversation before and it seems much more complicated having to construct an entire neighborhood just to make a convention center (which would be basically new by the time you add more exhibition space, likely a new ballroom, and other amenities) work. We've already subsidized the Hyatt (which is already a large full-service hotel) and the Elbow already exists. Why spend hundreds of millions duplicating all of that in LaVilla when it can have its own identity instead of being built around the convention center?

[heights unknown]

Make the old train station a downtown shopping mall/center, bustling Brooklyn is just over the bridge, and maybe that would be a shot in the arm for LaVilla. I guess we'd better stick with the Hyatt downtown, add to it and improve it, and yes, get rid of the Jail and spend extra money building a convention center next to the Hyatt on the old Jail site. Somehow to me there's a waste of money here.

[thelakelander]

I'd love to see us return the old train station back to its original use and develop mixed use TOD around it. It's adjacent to the railroad, JRTC, Skyway, bus lines, etc. There's no other site in town where a union terminal makes more sense. Similar terminals in DC and Denver are an example of stations that also include retail and other uses, so there is some good precedence there for us to follow.

[Florida Power And Light]

I'd love to see us return the old train station back to its original use and develop mixed use TOD around it. It's adjacent to the railroad, JRTC, Skyway, bus lines, etc. There's no other site in town where a union terminal makes more sense. Similar terminals in DC and Denver are an example of stations that also include retail and other uses, so there is some good precedence there for us to follow.

Worth Repeating!

[jaxlongtimer]

There's no market for two convention center sized hotels in downtown. There's also no entertainment or restaurants in vicinity. Drinking beer on top of a gas station isn't going to get it done. The cheaper, easier option, that checks all the boxes still ends up being the Hyatt site.

As you know best, LaVilla is much more than a single block with an ugly gas station.  That said, I would hardly call the Elbow or anything else around the Hyatt so robust as to satisfy the desires of conventioneers looking for good times.  Plenty of cities with vision have reinvigorated desolate parts of town, building around existing infrastructure and taking things to the next level.  The fact is that the area around LaVilla is more of a blank page than around the Hyatt and it has some advantages the Hyatt area doesn't. 

As to more hotels, how many have been built or proposed in and around Downtown.  Clearly, some developers might see demand for one near Oborne, especially knowing they can get incentives like the Four Seasons, which is actually being built in an even more isolated area.  Bottom line... there is a right way to do it and the only question is can Jax pull it off?  Based on history, maybe not, but then again, swing the bat enough times and maybe we finally hit the ball.

[thelakelander]

There's no market for two convention center sized hotels in downtown. There's also no entertainment or restaurants in vicinity. Drinking beer on top of a gas station isn't going to get it done. The cheaper, easier option, that checks all the boxes still ends up being the Hyatt site.

As you know best, LaVilla is much more than a single block with an ugly gas station.  That said, I would hardly call the Elbow or anything else around the Hyatt so robust as to satisfy the desires of conventioneers looking for good times.  Plenty of cities with vision have reinvigorated desolate parts of town, building around existing infrastructure and taking things to the next level.  The fact is that the area around LaVilla is more of a blank page than around the Hyatt and it has some advantages the Hyatt area doesn't.

We both know that there is much more of a cluster of activity and built environment around the core of the Northbank than the area around the Prime Osborn. The Hyatt itself, which is located on the river and already adjacent to the Elbow, Cowford Chophouse, Florida Theatre, etc., has more restaurants than that area of LaVilla around the Prime Osborn. There's really no comparison.

However, I will disagree on the comment about LaVilla being a blank slate. It isn't. Yes, there has been a significant amount of urban renewal in LaVilla east of I-95, but the historic community, it's legacy institutions and many historic buildings are still present. If long time residents and their offspring have their way, its vision does not lie in uses like large scale convention centers, 1,000 room hotels, etc., that disrespect and take away from the character and unique mixed-use neighborhood they are working hard to restore. The plan there is to put things back into service as the urban neighborhood it used to be. Stay tuned, as there's some good things happening there that will be revealed in upcoming months.

As to more hotels, how many have been built or proposed in and around Downtown.

No convention center sized, full service hotel has been built in Downtown since the Hyatt....which was heavily subsidized and was in bankruptcy less than ten years ago. Even the Four Seasons (which will have less than 200 rooms) doesn't fit that boat.

Clearly, some developers might see demand for one near Oborne, especially knowing they can get incentives like the Four Seasons, which is actually being built in an even more isolated area.  Bottom line... there is a right way to do it and the only question is can Jax pull it off?  Based on history, maybe not, but then again, swing the bat enough times and maybe we finally hit the ball.

I do agree that there is a right way to do it.....but when we objectively look at the issue, which includes better utilizing what we already have.....it leads us back to the Hyatt.

[jaxlongtimer]

Lake, I don't think we are that far apart regarding LaVilla.  I am suggesting that if LaVilla is "restored" as you are working toward, it will become a vibrant historic and "self contained" community that will attract its own set of visitors to savor, not unlike historic districts elsewhere.  This nearby vibrancy would be an asset to those visiting a convention here and would serve as an economic driver for the LaVilla community.

Protecting the integrity of LaVilla will be at the mercy of strict standards applied with discipline.  One would expect this to be incorporated in the plans you and others are advocating for. 

[thelakelander]

From a time line perspective, building the area around the Prime Osborn into a competitive convention center environment would take decades. Cost wise, it would be more than building a new, large convention center on the jail site. When considering things in a practical sense, you still get pulled back to the Hyatt site. So I have to ask, what do people view was a negative with the Hyatt property? Is it just a preference for something new and significant larger than the Prime Osborn (even though the market doesn't demand it)?

[thelakelander]

.
Protecting the integrity of LaVilla will be at the mercy of strict standards applied with discipline.  One would expect this to be incorporated in the plans you and others are advocating for. 

Yes, they are on it. A larger convention center isn't in the works but the rehabilitation of Broad, Ashley and Davis are priorities. Changes with the zoning, preservation practices and DDRB board make up will be needed.

[heights unknown]

.
Protecting the integrity of LaVilla will be at the mercy of strict standards applied with discipline.  One would expect this to be incorporated in the plans you and others are advocating for. 

Yes, they are on it. A larger convention center isn't in the works but the rehabilitation of Broad, Ashley and Davis are priorities. Changes with the zoning, preservation practices and DDRB board make up will be needed.

What do you mean by "rehabilitation of Broad, Ashley and Davis?" What are they contemplating doing? Most of the "Lavilla Heart and Gut" has been choked off. Will they revive these areas somehow?

[thelakelander]

Restore what's left (i.e. Masonic Temple, Old Stanton, Lenape, etc.) while also adding complimentary mixed use infill development, rebuilding much of the density that was lost. Johnson Commons, Pratt Funeral Home being renovated into apartments and a Black owned wine bar are two examples underway.

The push to try to improve the Daily's site plan was to make them align with the LaVilla plan for Broad Street (i.e. revitalization of a walkable Black wall Street between Bay and State/Union. Some want to see Ashley Street rebuilt between Jefferson and Davis,  just north of the LaVilla School of Arts.

Regarding Davis, there's talk of bringing back the Ritz Theatre District concept from the 1980s (just a 21st century version) as well. The general gist is that the neighborhood still exists and it can be economically revitalized inclusively, as long as we're intentional about it.