Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020

[Kerry]

Either sell the team to a new owner that cares about the city and the football team (Tom Coughlin?), or move the damn team to Orlando; I think they'd do good down there (change the name to the FLORIDA JAGUARS).

The Bucs would never allow them in Orlando.  The list of other cities willing/able to spend money on an NFL team isn't very long either.

[Chuckabear]

Khan is taking some heat for saying there is limited demand for football in Jax and seeking a second game in London....but he isn't wrong.  The Jags don't release gate attendance but they know what it is.  I would have find it again but the highest revenue for a single game by the Jags was way down on the list highest revenue games in the NFL.  Selling out the stadium every Sunday wouldn't solve their funding problem.

Ticket revenue is shared among the league and players. Only luxury suite revenue is kept by the team.

There is a bit more nuance to this....The 32 teams equally share 63 percent of the money generated by television deals, any national sponsorship revenue, a third of all ticket money, and any revenue from non-NFL events that are held in NFL stadiums.

Personal seat licenses, luxury suite deals, club seat tickets, stadium sponsorship, parking, merchandising, concessions are where larger market teams have a significant advantage over small market teams.

My questions on the Lot J deal is.. if the price tag continues to rise is Jax still bound by the 50/50 partnership?

Just how is Jax supposed to generate revenue from whatever form Lot J takes to meet both debt obligations and benefit the city when Lot J in of itself is isolated from the CBD/Riverside/Brooklyn and at best TIAA Bank Field hosts what 15 events a year?

[thelakelander]

Regarding Lot J, my major question would be if we have $233 to $350 million to invest/subsidize, why have we not conducted a true analysis of if this project generates the highest ROI for taxpayers when it comes to downtown. That's an insane amount of money that could easily flood a district like the Northbank, back to life in record time.

[Kerry]

Regarding Lot J, my major question would be if we have $233 to $350 million to invest/subsidize, why have we not conducted a true analysis of if this project generates the highest ROI for taxpayers when it comes to downtown. That's an insane amount of money that could easily flood a district like the Northbank, back to life in record time.

Because Lot J isn't about reviving downtown or anything remotely like that.  It is 100% about transferring $200 million (maybe even more now) in direct cash to the Jags to keep them in Jax.  According to the framework agreement reached back in July the Jags aren't obligated to build anything and they get to keep all the money anyhow.  If Curry thought he could get away with giving the Jags a semi full of cash he would just go that route.

[I-10east]

It probably has to do with TV viewership and merchandise sales.

I doubt it. With apathetic ticket sales, merchandise goes down the tubes regardless. TV viewership is only a big deal with big market/bandwagon teams; it would be very contrasting and lopsided with say JAX vs SEA or DAL. JAX vs TB or CIN, not so much. Also the NFL is probably the most small market friendly pro league in sports, in term of divvying up money between all of the teams.

[I-10east]

or move the damn team to Orlando; I think they'd do good down there (change the name to the FLORIDA JAGUARS).

Im so triggered by this. Tampa (second largest metro in FL behind Miami) has awful attendance (worse than Jax) but dammit, freaking Orlando just up I-4 would have diehard crazy super fans, with consecutive 70K sellouts for the foreseeable future....

[Ken_FSU]

Even though Khan and Lamping's optics often leave a bit to be desired, the Jags have got to be one of the most open and forthcoming franchises in the NFL. We all - Khan included - want a winning team on the field, but to Lamping's point, winning alone isn't going to change the realities of our market size, and the fact that we're still a relatively young franchise without a lot of regional support trying to fill an oversized stadium nine Sundays a year. It's a challenge, in terms of keeping up revenue-wise with franchises in much larger markets, with more corporate support and multi-generational fanbases. This isn't a "knock" on Jacksonville, just economic reality.

Khan and Lamping talk constantly of their strategy to make the franchise competitive financially, and that plan hasn't really deviated since Weaver sold the team. Play a lucrative "home" game in London to offset lower-than-NFL-average ticket prices in Jacksonville. Seek new revenue streams to increase the team's bottom line locally (Daily's Place has been huge for the Jags, as could Lot J (Jacksonville Live! would host 100+ concerts and event annually, and all of the other activity in the sports complex would essentially make Lot J a 365-day-a-year revenue stream). Host more big events at the stadium (Lynyrd Skynyrd, Rolling Stones, Green Day/Weezer, etc.).

The fanbase can be way too sensitive, cherry-picking comments to be upset about and spinning conspiracy theories about London while ignoring all the positive comments Khan and Lamping make about the Jacksonville fans and these moves that they are clearly and transparently trying to make to lay down long-term roots in Jacksonville.

Even the stadium situation, if you actually listen to and read Lamping's comments from a business rather than emotional perspective, they're pretty open and fair. The Jags want to get way, way ahead of the stadium talks now and come up with a plan that the city can plan towards, rather than holding Jacksonville up at the last minute. It's great that this discussion is happening 10 years in advance, the Jags aren't asking for anything now, and the framework that they're discussing (not a new stadium, but major upgrades to improve actual, functional problems with the stadium that are affecting business - protection from the elements, wider concourses, easier movement between levels) is perfectly reasonable and again suggests to anyone with a functioning brain that the Jags aren't trying to force an exit of the market.

In terms of Lot J and the stadium, I think you've got to kind of look at it in the same way that the city looked at the $121 million investment in the stadium back when we were trying to get an NFL team in the early 1990s. Ed Austin felt like it was a terrible deal for the city, and almost single-handedly killed our chances of landing an NFL team as a result. I think it was Delaney who played a big part in changing his mind by kind of reframing the argument to be less around paying $121 million to rebuild the stadium, and more about investing $121 million to secure a long-term NFL franchise for Jacksonville.

Lot J ask is currently $230 million, and $400 million is probably a safe estimate for the stadium based on recent renovations of Hard Rock Stadium in Miami. Taking all emotion out of it and bitterness over wins and losses, the rational question here is, "Would a $630 million investment in the sports complex be worth it to keep the Jags in Jacksonville through 2050." In addition to snuffing out relocation rumors for good, we'd also have a much stronger sports complex with additional entertainment options, the ability to host more and bigger events, a stronger value prop in terms of keeping Florida/Georgia, a catalyst for an improved Metro Park/Shipyards, etc.

There's rational arguments to be made both ways, but as a guy who genuinely believes that the Jags are very, very important to this community, I think it's a pretty decent investment. Better for the average Jacksonville citizen than a new convention center for example, I'd argue.

I think if we hammer out the stadium deal after the Lot J deal, as Lamping has suggested that the Jags want to do, it gives us significantly more leverage down the line to say no to unreasonable asks related to the Shipyards.

[I-10east]

Jags fan and youtuber 'UCF Jaguar' described Khan's clandestine ways perfectly; going to these BS national media groups, and talking crap against the fans like always... He's nearly nonexistent with the Jax media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqYnYvKR-Fo

[Kerry]

Ken_FSU, why are you assuming that a $630 million taxpayer bailout of the Jags now is all tge Jags would ask for over the next 30 years?  Look how much the City has spent on the Jags since the stadium was built.  When digging a hole so deep you can't get out of it step 1 is to stop digging.

Khan is a billionaire 7X over.  The Jags are woeth over $2 billion all by themselves.  Khan's boat is worth north of $350 million.  He could sell his boat and pay for Lot J with cash.  I'm having a hard time understanding why the taxpayers are involved at all with Lot J.

The NFL sales pitch has always been, "We create intangibles that will put your city on a world stage and bring untold growth and wealth."  Well, here we are 20 years later havibg to use tax dollars to shore up the team's finances and that "payoff" has never materialize.  If the NFL was investment we lost big time.

[thelakelander]

In terms of Lot J and the stadium, I think you've got to kind of look at it in the same way that the city looked at the $121 million investment in the stadium back when we were trying to get an NFL team in the early 1990s. Ed Austin felt like it was a terrible deal for the city, and almost single-handedly killed our chances of landing an NFL team as a result. I think it was Delaney who played a big part in changing his mind by kind of reframing the argument to be less around paying $121 million to rebuild the stadium, and more about investing $121 million to secure a long-term NFL franchise for Jacksonville.

Lot J ask is currently $230 million, and $400 million is probably a safe estimate for the stadium based on recent renovations of Hard Rock Stadium in Miami. Taking all emotion out of it and bitterness over wins and losses, the rational question here is, "Would a $630 million investment in the sports complex be worth it to keep the Jags in Jacksonville through 2050." In addition to snuffing out relocation rumors for good, we'd also have a much stronger sports complex with additional entertainment options, the ability to host more and bigger events, a stronger value prop in terms of keeping Florida/Georgia, a catalyst for an improved Metro Park/Shipyards, etc.

There's rational arguments to be made both ways, but as a guy who genuinely believes that the Jags are very, very important to this community, I think it's a pretty decent investment. Better for the average Jacksonville citizen than a new convention center for example, I'd argue.

I think if we hammer out the stadium deal after the Lot J deal, as Lamping has suggested that the Jags want to do, it gives us significantly more leverage down the line to say no to unreasonable asks related to the Shipyards.

Hard Rock Stadium's $500 million in recent renovations were privately funded by Stephen Ross and it has no Lot J component. Jax will end up paying a lot more than $630 million to keep the Jags in town through 2050. Providing $233 million for Lot J won't keep them here. It's only pad sites for future development (with Iguana being in position to flip it) and a smaller Landing that we'll own and be on the hook for when it ultimately fails (and like the Landing, it will if we don't keep putting money into it).  So specifically for Lot J, the discussion about of where is the upfront cash coming from and what is being unfunded or ignored city wide as a result should be open and transparent. As proven by the BJP, if given the opportunity to be a part of the decision making process, perhaps the community would be willing to tax itself a bit more to not only fund Jags improvements, but a host of other very important and critical community needs that have been long ignored by city leaders.

[Ken_FSU]

Ken_FSU, why are you assuming that a $630 million taxpayer bailout of the Jags now is all tge Jags would ask for over the next 30 years?

It won't be all they ask for.

But if we hammer out a stadium plan sooner than later that extends the lease for another 15-20 years, we have infinitely more leverage to say no when the Jags come asking for a convention center, or heavily subsidized residential towers in the Shipyards down the road.

100% agree, Lake, on the need for openness and transparency, as well as public input.

Saying no and taking our chances that the Jags walk is a perfectly valid option as well that shouldn't be immediately discounted.

That said, this is Jacksonville Florida, where nothing is vetted, and based on this quote from yesterday, it sure sounds like we're going to see some artificial urgency injected into the discussion to make sure no one asks too many questions.

"I've been hearing now for about two weeks that they're close to final deal... I know the expectation is to be able to break ground sometime this spring, so we need a bill to go to city council so they need move fast," Mayor Curry said.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/mayor-curry-says-city-and-jaguars-close-to-finalized-deal-for-lot-j-development/77-0a50b5c8-8174-4161-8f7b-c6462916317b

[thelakelander]

Breaking ground must be viewed as COJ starting to clean the property or executing some contract. Permitting for anything going vertical will take some time and involvement with other agencies like SJWMD and the process of going through the DIA, council and DDRB alone will take months. Plus, Curry is pretty bad a estimating timelines. We're nearly a year into his second term and the courthouse parking lot removal/riverwalk reconstruction thing is still not close to being done.

[Ken_FSU]

Clarification by Lamping on the viability comment.

https://www.bigcatcountry.com/2020/1/16/21068792/mark-lamping-jaguars-comments-winning

[jaxlongtimer]

Lamping said again that the new agreement will still be 50/50.  That is going to make the City's share about $350 million if true.  We'll probably have to borrow that money.

I am no fan of the Jags sucking up taxpayer dollars for all their projects and fully expect they will be back for more than the $233 million originally floated for the City's investment in Lot J.

However, I think the 50/50 that Kerry referred to above relates to Khan's split with Cordish Companies, not the City.  Here is the quote with 50/50 in the article:

He said Khan and the Cordish Companies, which would split the private investment on a 50-50 basis, already are able to finance their portions of the project.

As to taxpayer investment in the Jags we have the original cost of the stadium, 50% of the (for a few months) "world's largest" scoreboards, swimming pools and other stadium "improvements/updates" and Daily's Place.  I think the City also pays out of pocket for JSO and some stadium maintenance and who-knows-what else.  All in and adjusted for inflation, we have to be around or above $500 million in current dollars from the taxpayers.

Add not only $233 million (and likely much more when the environmental cleanup costs finally come in and the inevitable cost overruns on any construction) for Lot J but also the near $50 million for the Hart Bridge ramp removal for the total benefit of Khan's projects and millions more on the "Innovation Corridor" that, interestingly enough, mostly runs by the Shipyards and Metro Park and terminates at Lot J, Daily's and the Stadium, all Khan projects.  Then there are future "improvements" to the stadium that are likely to be at least several hundred million more dollars.  Add it all up, and in present dollars, we taxpayers will easily have over $1 billion invested in Jags-related projects within the very near future.

The NFL sales pitch has always been, "We create intangibles that will put your city on a world stage and bring untold growth and wealth."  Well, here we are 20 years later having to use tax dollars to shore up the team's finances and that "payoff" has never materialize.  If the NFL was investment we lost big time.

There are a number of national studies that clearly demonstrate that intangible benefits, such as a community's self esteem, is about all taxypayers get from professional sports team investments.  Not only are there no real/tangible hard dollar economic benefits but teams may actually subtract from local economies via the taxpayer dollars redirected to them over better investments in their respective communities and fans redirecting their entertainment dollars to billionaire team owners vs. local businesses that would recycle more of those dollars in their local communities.

[Kerry]

Thanks for clarifying the 50/50 comment.  I read that article again last night and realized that Lamping was talking about their agreement with Cordish.  Interesting though that if the City pays 1/2 and Cordish/Khan split a 1/2 then Khan is only putting up 1/4 the cost.

If Lot J is such a money-maker why cut anyone else in on the deal, especially if you could fund the whole thing yourself?