Jaguars New Stadium?

[JaxAvondale]

It comes down to this.

In the next couple of years, the Jaguars are going to ask for an extensive renovation of the stadium. One likely costing at least 500 million dollars.

Without that renovation, the team will move. That is not a question.

The city, and the state of Florida, will have to decide if they are willing to commit that amount of money to guarantee there will be an NFL team in Jacksonville beyond 2030.

I have a friend that works at the stadium. What he has heard is the plan would be to essentially knock down the upper decks and the ramps and rebuild them with a partial roof, similar to Miami. And that likely for one season the team would play home games in Gainesville or Orlando. The Bears, Seahawks and Vikings have played in college stadiums for a year or two while a stadium was being built or renovated.

The city will come up with whatever pricetag it takes. No mayor wants to be the one who lost the Jaguars. The question will be what kind of deal the city secures in exchange for the investment. Another 30 year lease agreement would be good. The only limit will be how much we can actually bond, but I'm sure the Jags understand that (and also understand that the NFL's running out of cities that will pay this kind of money for a stadium). We do have the benefit of not totally starting from scratch - or worse, total demo and rebuild - since most of the stadium's bones are good.

It would be silly if the JEA sale were to go to this expense. What the hell would we sell in another 20 or 30 years when the stadium issue comes back again? The airport? Smarter to bond it against bed tax, sales tax, etc. that would be recurring as opposed to one time money.

In this light, it's interesting what happened in Atlanta when it lost the Thrashers and the Braves (Winnipeg for the Thrashers, the suburbs for the Braves). The mayor at the time, Kasim Reed, said the city was simply unwilling to match what Cobb County was offering for the Braves considering the city's other needs. He focused on the Falcons football and soccer stadium and the development surrounding it, saying the deal they'd worked out there was a revenue generator for the city instead of a drain, as the Braves stadium would be, and had a better chance of inspiring surrounding development and investment. People were upset but he showed that Atlanta is still Atlanta without the Braves playing downtown. When your city has so much else going on, you can be choosy.

Interesting thoughts on Atlanta. Personally I think Atlanta picked wrong and should have prioritized the Braves (81 Games) versus the Falcons (10 Games). I realize the dome also brings things like CFP, Bowl Game, Final Four, etc, but I'd rather have a steady crowd of 25k 81 times a year.

I think you have to add the Atlanta United matches to that total as well. I would guess that the soccer matches generate more revenue for the city as they likely get more out of town visitors than the Braves.

[Ken_FSU]

I actually think the Jags are handling the stadium discussion really well thus far.

They're getting way out ahead of it.

They're clearly not demanding a new stadium.

The ideas being floated aren't flagrant cash grabs, but solid ideas to improve the stadium experience (shade from the elements, wider concourses, easier access between levels).

They're stating that they're prepared to share in the cost.

And they're being very upfront about the fact that said improvements would result in an extension of the lease.

No explicit threats.

No games about their desire to remain in the Jacksonville market.

Devil's always in the details, but compared to the shadiness we see elsewhere in professional sports, it feels like constructive, proactive dialog at this stage of the game.

[Kerry]

I would actively support any "No" group that materializes.

[Ken_FSU]

I would actively support any "No" group that materializes.

Perfectly reasonable.

That's the beauty of starting discussions now.

Get all the details out there and allow ample time for public debate.

[Kerry]

The Jags have been here for 25 years.  Surely they are turning a profit by now to be able to pay for their own stuff.  Maybe St Johns County might be interested.

[Ken_FSU]

The Jags have been here for 25 years.  Surely they are turning a profit by now to be able to pay for their own stuff.  Maybe St Johns County might be interested.

The stadium has been there for 91 years.

And, like most other NFL stadiums, it's publicly owned.

Shad Khan put $10 million into the stadium shortly after buying the team.

The Jags paid half for the $63 million scoreboard/cabana upgrades.

The Jags paid half for the $90 million Daily's Place, Flex Field, club seat upgrades.

It's not like they're not putting money in.

We know what it costs to play ball in the NFL.

If the public is fine paying 50% (or whatever) for another $500 million in renovations to keep the stadium current, keep an NFL team here, and help draw in additional events, I'm totally fine with it.

That's what the bed tax is for, and our bed taxes have been steadily increasing with no sign of reversion.

Much bigger issue to me is where the city's getting $1.25 billion to fund Lot J and the Shipyards. If it's the bed tax, as City Council has suggested, that ain't going to leave much when the Jags come calling for a roof and new concourses.

[pierre]

The Jags have been here for 25 years.  Surely they are turning a profit by now to be able to pay for their own stuff.  Maybe St Johns County might be interested.

As I am certain you are aware of, they are a primary tenant and not the owner of the stadium. It's not their (Jaguars) stuff. It's our (city of Jacksonville) stuff. Whether you like it or not.

[pierre]

The Jags have been here for 25 years.  Surely they are turning a profit by now to be able to pay for their own stuff.  Maybe St Johns County might be interested.

The stadium has been there for 91 years.

And, like most other NFL stadiums, it's publicly owned.

Shad Khan put $10 million into the stadium shortly after buying the team.

The Jags paid half for the $63 million scoreboard/cabana upgrades.

The Jags paid half for the $90 million Daily's Place, Flex Field, club seat upgrades.

It's not like they're not putting money in.

We know what it costs to play ball in the NFL.

If the public is fine paying 50% (or whatever) for another $500 million in renovations to keep the stadium current, keep an NFL team here, and help draw in additional events, I'm totally fine with it.

That's what the bed tax is for, and our bed taxes have been steadily increasing with no sign of reversion.

Much bigger issue to me is where the city's getting $1.25 billion to fund Lot J and the Shipyards. If it's the bed tax, as City Council has suggested, that ain't going to leave much when the Jags come calling for a roof and new concourses.

It was in terms of a loan. But the NFL gave the Dolphins some of the funding for their stadium upgrades.

[Ken_FSU]

The Jags have been here for 25 years.  Surely they are turning a profit by now to be able to pay for their own stuff.  Maybe St Johns County might be interested.

The stadium has been there for 91 years.

And, like most other NFL stadiums, it's publicly owned.

Shad Khan put $10 million into the stadium shortly after buying the team.

The Jags paid half for the $63 million scoreboard/cabana upgrades.

The Jags paid half for the $90 million Daily's Place, Flex Field, club seat upgrades.

It's not like they're not putting money in.

We know what it costs to play ball in the NFL.

If the public is fine paying 50% (or whatever) for another $500 million in renovations to keep the stadium current, keep an NFL team here, and help draw in additional events, I'm totally fine with it.

That's what the bed tax is for, and our bed taxes have been steadily increasing with no sign of reversion.

Much bigger issue to me is where the city's getting $1.25 billion to fund Lot J and the Shipyards. If it's the bed tax, as City Council has suggested, that ain't going to leave much when the Jags come calling for a roof and new concourses.

Do you happen to know a source for the bed tax revenues by year? Perhaps my google skills are eroding...

Def not your Googling skills, I just tried Googling for the exact numbers too, and they do seem hard to find online.

I've got them somewhere back at work, but the key points are:

1) Everyone's, or at least almost everyone's, bed taxes are growing, just by proxy of a 10 year post-recession hotel boom (https://www.hotelbusiness.com/cbre-u-s-hotels-forecast-to-enjoy-tenth-consecutive-year-of-growth/)

2) Jacksonville is outpacing average hotel growth

Our bed taxes are in a good place to cover some of this stuff, but can't see a universe where they're in a place to cover all of it.

[jaxlongtimer]

Problem #1:  The $500 million will quickly turn into over $1 billion.  The original rebuild of the stadium experienced similar or greater cost inflation.  Every City building project has done the same (see the Courthouse, etc.).  Call it bait and switch because once you start construction, you are hooked and really can't back out (see JEA Georgia nuclear power plant).

Problem #2: What the City really should ask for is stock in Jacksonville Jaguars, Inc.  The City gets virtually no revenue off the Jags activities and bears much of their expenses.  And, national studies have all concluded that pro teams do not add to a community's economy, they subtract from it.  What they add is intangible "psychological rewards" although the way the Jags have played the last few years that may also be up for debate.  Meanwhile, by many reports, the Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought the team.  Maybe we sell JEA and buy the Jags and get their dividends to subsidize the City budget  !

Problem #3:  The mayor and City Council will be putty in Khan's hands and give away the City to keep the team.  We should put the subsidies up for a vote:  Give the Jags the subsidies and keep the team or don't give them the subsidies and thank them for the memories.  I would love to see a UNF poll on that!

Problem #4:  We can extend the lease for 25 to 30 more years but the Jags will be back in 10 years for still more improvements and more subsidies.  They didn't go 25 years on the last lease without multiple asks and don't expect the pattern to change for the next 25 years.

Problem #5:  Given the concerns over concussions, TV saturation, TV quality so good its like being at the game while staying home, more competition for eyeballs, sports fatigue with 24/7 availability, etc., the NFL may be close to its peak popularity.  In 25 years, we may be more interested in virtual reality or watching Jax video game teams pitted against other cities for a global championship (these competitions already fill large arenas on a regular basis).

Problem #6:  In 25 years, the stadium may be sitting in a swamp due to the river overflowing its banks due to rising seas.

I could go on, but you get the idea.  Lot's of ways for us taxpayers to get left holding the bag.  FYI, I read where Oakland still has some $300+ million in bonds to pay off for a now-empty stadium.  The Chargers left San Diego because they drew the line on subsidizing the team further and now the team is a total dud in "big market" LA.  Maybe moving teams isn't so risk free anymore and cities with a long tradition of supporting a team gain a bit more leverage over NFL owners.  Jax should not undersell itself.  And, if we invested these kinds of monies in the community at large, we will do just fine, and maybe better, as a city.

[Kerry]

Exactly!!!!

If the Jags left where would the City spend the Bed Tax dollars?  On actual tourism and economic development maybe?  If we can spend the Bed Tax money on Lot J surely we could use it to fix the riverwalks, Friendship Fountain, and other long-neglected items.

[sandyshoes]

I vote for adding a Good Dough Doughnuts franchise to concessions.  Imagine the smell of hot doughnuts wafting through the air...

[jaxjags]

Note to Kerry: I lived here in 1988-1991. No one knew where or what Jacksonville FL was. People from New England thought we were a backwater town with dirty and stinky air. It's hard to have an identity in Florida with cites like Orlando(DW), Miami, Tampa, Keys. We were not a tourist destination. JAX was not much different than many mid sized cities at that time - Charlotte, Birmingham, R-D, Richmond and yes, Oklahoma City. I and most people liked it at the time, as nice city that offered the beaches but was not crowded.

For a place like JAX there must be a spark to ignite  fire and put JAX on the map. That was football and the Jaguars. I'm not sure many people would know or care where Oklahoma City was without the Thunder.

Now most of the growth is organic or self sustaining, so the Jaguars importance is down the scale. But, as Ken implies I don't want to check that.

PS: I was an inaugural ticket holder to Jags (as my moniker implies) until this year.  I like NFL football and have followed it since the 60's, but don't live and die by it as some do.

[I-10east]

In this light, it's interesting what happened in Atlanta when it lost the Thrashers and the Braves (Winnipeg for the Thrashers, the suburbs for the Braves). The mayor at the time, Kasim Reed, said the city was simply unwilling to match what Cobb County was offering for the Braves considering the city's other needs. He focused on the Falcons football and soccer stadium and the development surrounding it, saying the deal they'd worked out there was a revenue generator for the city instead of a drain, as the Braves stadium would be, and had a better chance of inspiring surrounding development and investment. People were upset but he showed that Atlanta is still Atlanta without the Braves playing downtown. When your city has so much else going on, you can be choosy.

The crime in the Turner Field area was legendary. Too many people complained about the crime for me not to think that it wasn't a significant detriment. Turner Field is basically a professional version of Campbell's Field in Camden, NJ (both defunct and razed for the same reason).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_Field

[I-10east]

I have a friend that works at the stadium. What he has heard is the plan would be to essentially knock down the upper decks and the ramps and rebuild them with a partial roof, similar to Miami. And that likely for one season the team would play home games in Gainesville or Orlando. The Bears, Seahawks and Vikings have played in college stadiums for a year or two while a stadium was being built or renovated.

I would be fine with an extensive renovation (shade, widened concourses etc), and the team playing a season down in Gville. A reasonable deal between the team and city is without say.