Are You Okay Investing $233 Million For Lot J?

[Snaketoz]

It's a never ending dilemma.  Downtown is never going to change until opposing sides change.  On one side there are people waiting for downtown residents before they open businesses like restaurants, bars, retail, etc.  On the other hand there are people who are waiting for others to build and open those things.  What we lack is the leadership at the mayor's office and council to bring this standoff to a good result.  It'll never happen by tearing town the courthouse, the landing, and making the area look like Dresden in '45.  Go to the polls and change things.

[Kerry]

Jax is starting from worse than last place.  We are twenty laps down in a race most people don't even know we are in.

Good lord, dude, are you okay? Jax is no urban metropolis or even a big destination city, but you act as if we're some slumhole rustbelt ghost town with a nuclear waste site in the middle of a leaking toxic waste dump where the children play. What the hell do you want from this world?

We do have that - it is called the Shipyards and Khan and Co think people want to live next door to it.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/morning-edition/2015/06/study-shipyards-site-contaminated-beyond.html

Much of the contamination is to be expected. The Shipyards was previously used for industrial purposes, which exposed it to chemicals like lead and arsenic. The contamination is, however, beyond what officials were expecting.

[thelakelander]

It's a never ending dilemma.  Downtown is never going to change until opposing sides change.  On one side there are people waiting for downtown residents before they open businesses like restaurants, bars, retail, etc.  On the other hand there are people who are waiting for others to build and open those things.

And the reality and real solution is in the middle. We already have businesses and new projects coming online. We aren't starting from scratch. We have to do the little things to maximize what we already have. Focus on a block where you have a mix of existing businesses, proposed development and vacant storefronts. Enhance the public realm between them and program the hell out of it. Doing that gives you a beginning viable environment to build from. It really is that simple.

[Peter Griffin]

We do have that - it is called the Shipyards and Khan and Co think people want to live next door to it.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/morning-edition/2015/06/study-shipyards-site-contaminated-beyond.html

Much of the contamination is to be expected. The Shipyards was previously used for industrial purposes, which exposed it to chemicals like lead and arsenic. The contamination is, however, beyond what officials were expecting.

Holy cow I wrote out the most hyperbolic hellhole I possibly could and you still manage to find a way to mold it to fit your view of this city.

We have a contaminated site that developers want to, and have previously, built on top of. It will take cleanup, but it's not even a superfund site. It's really easy to shit on everything, but I don't need to tell you that, you're the king of it on this site.

[Kerry]

Okay, so let's say we start with what we have.  Pick the area we should start with.  Where is it and how do we activate it?

[thelakelander]

Here is a suggestion I made in another thread the other day. Laura between the Landing and Hemming or Adams between the courthouse and Main (with serious focus on the block between Hogan and Laura):

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,35808.msg494492.html#msg494492

I need to make a graphic showing the location of current projects, but there's more currently happening in this 5-minute walk radius right now, then what we'll get after giving away $233 million in incentives at Lot J.

[Peter Griffin]

Okay, so let's say we start with what we have.  Pick the area we should start with.  Where is it and how do we activate it?

The block bounded by Bay/Forsyth/Newnan/Ocean. It already ties into the Elbow district and isn't too far from a lot of other retail/entertainment/food & drink destinations downtown. Get those silly little AV's to run between the Skyway Station and the Stadium, helping to further activate Bay St between the two. Open up the annex parking garage to hourly users so that suburbanites can get there and park. Get rid of the sign ordinance so that people can actually see where the heck businesses are.

If people don't know what's there, and it's a pain to get there, people won't come. Make it easier to get there (via transit or parking) and make it easier to find things they like (by allowing signage on the exterior of buildings) and people will be drawn in. Even despite those setbacks people (like myself) still make their way to that block and others nearby because there's actually some cool places to go around there.

[jaxjags]

Much has changed for the positive since I lived here in 1989. DT is much better today with restaurants, housing and soon more hotels. The growth may be haphazard and slow but it is growth. I believe things like FIS adding 500 people (although not in the core), Vystar, and The Barnett  increases demand for DT housing. Many of these new employees are young and will want to live in DT or Brooklyn or Lavilla.  Interst by local companies to move DT is increasing. Hope rental rates reach over $2/sq. ft. and that can spur more mid rise housing. As the Lake says lets get Laura street energized and see what happens next. Try to be positive.

[ProjectMaximus]

No one is coming here to see how to replicate our mass transit system,

Actually when the JTA did its bus route optimization 2 or 3 years ago, supposedly it was so successful that other cities came to study it. I know...broken clock twice a day...but just saying.

[Kerry]

Okay, so let's say we start with what we have.  Pick the area we should start with.  Where is it and how do we activate it?

The block bounded by Bay/Forsyth/Newnan/Ocean

Here is a suggestion I made in another thread the other day. Laura between the Landing and Hemming or Adams between the courthouse and Main (with serious focus on the block between Hogan and Laura):

I'm good with either one.  I get off work about 5PM today.  Who wants to go downtown with me and start activating these areas?  Do we just stop at Home Depot to pick up some Hourly Parking signs?

[Adam White]

Okay, so let's say we start with what we have.  Pick the area we should start with.  Where is it and how do we activate it?

The block bounded by Bay/Forsyth/Newnan/Ocean

Here is a suggestion I made in another thread the other day. Laura between the Landing and Hemming or Adams between the courthouse and Main (with serious focus on the block between Hogan and Laura):

I'm good with either one.  I get off work about 5PM today.  Who wants to go downtown with me and start activating these areas?

[Seraphs]

This project leaves me in a weird place.  I'm not upset by it, I'm just starved for some new activity on making this city become more alive.   I'm waiting and hoping for that one thing to spark a development unlike anything we've ever seen.  While i look forward for some positive outcome on this project, I am heart broken about The Landing, just don't get it!

[thelakelander]

This project leaves me in a weird place.  I'm not upset by it, I'm just starved for some new activity on making this city become more alive.   I'm waiting and hoping for that one thing to spark a development unlike anything we've ever seen.

It won't spark a development unlike anything we've ever seen. However, it will be a new Landing next to the stadium, which should improve the game day experience.

[Ken_FSU]

This project leaves me in a weird place.  I'm not upset by it, I'm just starved for some new activity on making this city become more alive.   I'm waiting and hoping for that one thing to spark a development unlike anything we've ever seen.

It won't spark a development unlike anything we've ever seen. However, it will be a new Landing next to the stadium, which should improve the game day experience.

You wanna see something downright weird?

The Jacksonville Live! aspect of this project will be the big selling point of this project to the public.

Curry toured multiple Cordish developments, including Ballpark Village in St. Louis, the Power & Light District in Kansas City, and Powerplant Live! in Baltimore before Lot J discussions ensued.

The project is being sold as Jacksonville's version of the above properties, and compared to Cordish's Texas Live! and Xfinity Live! in Philadelphia.

But check out the property sizes.

Phase 1 of Ballpark Village (the entertainment district) is 2.13 acres.


KC Live! (the Cordish entertainment complex) is 3.11 acres.


Xfinity Live! in Philiadelphia is 2.34 acres.


Texas Live! is 3.66 acres.


Powerplant Live in Baltimore is 3.54 acres.


So, take a look at the site plan that the Jags and Cordish have released:


And look at how much space is dedicated to the Cordish Live! complex that the city is ponying up $50 million for to be our new comparable "entertainment district."



What???

An acre is generous, considering the shape of the complex.

This is legimately 45% the size of the SMALLEST Live! development that Cordish has developed.

Unless the rest of the development is loaded with ground level entertainment uses (the JEA proposal had zero), or it's obscenely vertical compared to other Cordish developments, I'm not entirely sure how our "entertainment district" consists of much more than maybe two restaurants and two bars.

[Charles Hunter]

Not that it will make much difference in your comparison, I think you shortchanged the Live! size. From the site plan, it looks like it is about half the parking lot (along the N-S axis); the sketched area looks to be a little smaller.

But, yeah, ours is dinky in comparison.